₦airaland Forum

Image123:
i already told you, deeds are not primary determinants of a Person being good. Good is measured by the God standard. i have asked you and your ilk if Stalin and co are good because they did one good deed or another, you have being pussyfooting instead. Are you saying there are no good deeds found in the Bible done by God?

I asked you a simple question, you keep claiming that God is good by nature. I just showed you one of his actions according to the bible and asked you if you consider that to be good. A simple yes or no will do instead of all this diversionary action you are trying to engage in.

Image123:
Oh, lunatics and psychopaths are Gods? i never knew. Can we really compare God to Hitler using the Bible? God created heaven and earth, created all humans, created the Sun and the rain, the fruits and the plants and the animals, all the mineral resources. All these according to the Bible too. Lemme not start with His miracles, His book, His love and mercy and forgiveness, all in the Bible too. Are you prepared to use the Bible to compare God to anybody or god?

Even by the biblical standard God seems to be unstable and hypocritical. He tells people not to commit murder in as a commandment and the next minute he is telling the same people to go annihilate another group of people. He also tells people to be humble while he himself claims to be jealous, vicious and a consuming and raging fire. He tells people to love each other, be forgiving and do away with jealousy while he himself proudly says that he is jealous, visits the wrong doings on parents on their kids(where is the forgiveness). The nature of God as portrayed in the bible is all over the place. More like a schizophrenic personality that does everything. He stands for nothing because he is just all over the place.

Image123:
You want His deeds reeled out?

I just reeled out one of his deeds for you. Do you consider it a good deed?

Image123:
When you say a God like, who do you compare Him to? You forgot to state.

To lunatics and psychopaths like Hitler for example.

Image123:
God is good because it is His nature, it is what He is, He defines and determines goodness.

Do you consider a God that rants like this a God whose nature is good?

Amos 4:9-12

“Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards,
destroying them with blight and mildew.
Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

“I sent plagues among you
as I did to Egypt.
I killed your young men with the sword,
along with your captured horses.
I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

“I overthrew some of you
as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

“Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel,
and because I will do this to you, Israel,
prepare to meet your God.”

Image123:
i actually expected you to run away earlier. You can have nothing to say, because there is nothing for you to say than repeat boring copy and pasted ideas. Think for yourself and give us something more reasonable than trying to force us to believe your words.

You still haven't told us how God is good. You just said it.

tevinsolt:
just know the opposite what you believe is wrong is equally right if it subjective.

The fact that all moral principles come about differently is evidence that they are man made. Even if morality is objective it still remains a human construct. Humans can invent a set of moral values in common with other human beings like us, with the objective perspective being derived from human beings. Once they do that they can teach each other and learn to adhere to it.

tevinsolt:
I'm tired of going over the same thing, I'll have to agree to disagree, but you need to look into philosophy, might help you see the flaw in your argument.

There is no flaw in my argument. My position simply states that morality is a human construct. It has nothing to do with God. We can use only Christians as an example. Many Christians the world over disagree and are in constant disagreement with each other on what moral laws or principles to uphold despite believing in one God. If morality stems from God then why the constant disagreement even among Christians?

johnydon22:
He just wouldn't get it .... be ready for another stu..pid question.

Religious people have gotten away with so much lies over the years. Non of them have been able to show us how God on his own created morality. We on the other hand have shown them how morality is a human creation, how it has evolved over the years and why it will continue to evolve as we learn knew things and adjust our way of life as human beings.

tevinsolt:
you seriously don't get it. I can't change your mind but..
I easily can make this more difficult for you by asking you to account for how matter went from being purely physical to metaphysical having emotions, empathy and all
and pls do me a favor by answering these questions

I am not making this point at all. My point is that morality is a human creation and that remains a fact. People create moral systems to enable them enjoy the safety and well being of their various societies. People also created Gods and religions to justify authorities. All these things are man made ideas and creations. That is my point.

where did empathy come from (and pls don't say evolution)

I don't know how humans came about, but I do know that we have a brain that allows us to be empathetic towards others.

where did the Concept of Justice came from?

People created the justice system so that they can be enable to enjoy the safety and well being of their various societies. Without justice non of this can be attained because the society will be in disarray.

why do we feel the need to avenge wrong doings? don't you think revenging a dead person is selfish and arrogant to think killing is wrong? or that by taking revenge you impose your moral view on the person who committed the murder? not only that, you have buy into the murderers idea of morality to make him "pay" for taking the life of one of your own, in which is people might also retaliate.

We need to avenge the killing of others so that the killer will know that he too can not get away with taking the life of others.

in a morally subjective world conflict would be the order of the day, in our world reality is there are absolute morals that cut across every culture. these morals stands regardless personal bias.

We live in a world were our morality has evolved so much that things are now better. Conflict actually used to be the other of the day. During the time of the bible slavery was accepted, genocide was the order of the day, land grab was acceptable. The Romans invaded Israel and took over their lands during the time of Jesus. Israel was under occupation then. The Jews were praying for a Messiah to come and save them from the Romans. Stronger countries were going around grabbing lands and territories unopposed. There was chaos. Over time people learned that slavery was wrong, land grab was wrong, they formed charters and ended it. No God or religion was used to end these things. No God was used when the international criminal court was established. Reason was what was used to establish it. If Joshua or Moses of the bible were alive today the would have been sent to the international court of justice and tried as a war criminals. Morality is what humans have thought themselves over the years. The bible and Koran says that gays should be killed. Now societies have used reason to show that there is nothing wrong with being gay. God has nothing to do with morality, it is a human creation that is why it varies from society to society. People learn and teach each other moral principles through the use of reason.

tevinsolt:
It's like I can't get through to you. A moral law giver has to exist for morality to exist, if individual minds all make up what's moral, then there's no right or wrong, just PERSONAL BIAS, I prefer turkey, you prefer chicken (it is just what it is) no one is wrong no one is right. If morality is subjective, then you can't say slavery is wrong, if you say it is wrong then your acknowledging moral absolute, that there's a standard we have to follow when treating other humans, that humans shouldn't own other humans for financial gains when in fact there's no set guide.

The Moral law giver that exist is man. This is true because there are different laws in different societies, that is the reality. If God is the only moral law giver then why are there different laws in different societies all through human societies? Please can you tell me why there are very different laws all through human history if there is only one moral law giver? People thought themselves that slavery is wrong over thousand years of their evolution history, it actually used to be right, no God thought humans that history was wrong, the bible it self advocated and encouraged slavery, it never condemned it. People were encouraged to sell their daughters into slavery in the bible. The knowledge that slavery was wrong never came from the bible because the bible encouraged it, it came as a result of years of moral evolution, people thought themselves and learned that slavery was wrong. Over time they learned to stop it. They labeled it as a bad thing to do, thought it other to stop taking each other against their will, they reasoned it out and saw that it was the best thing to do and they stopped enslaving each other. Our ability to self reflect and use our brains to empathize with each other helped us a lot in that regard.

another way you can look at it is, If we don't have innate value just another cosmic dust walking around justice is not real and a delusion......If someone kills another person then it doesn't matter, the reality of things is that our solar system is headed for doom anyways all the achievement of humanity from the start to end is gonna be wiped out, you can rip people off while you are alive so that you can have finest of things in live, and leave others dirt poor, both the rich douchebag and the poor are all ending up in the same place.

As long as we are here we have to do things that will make us all live in peace and tranquility with each other. If some one kills another it matters because the people of that person that was murdered will like to take revenge. I gave you an example to the ancient tribe in the Americas that almost exterminated each other until they came together and thought each other to stop killing one another because they were tired of losing their loved ones. Revenge killing and dominating the other was part of their cultures. They realized it was affecting them negatively and stopped. As long as we are here, we have to find ways of minimizing harm to each other.

Even with God it doesn't matter how you live your life, what matters is what religion or sect of religion you belong to. Muslims believe all unbelievers will rot in hell, Christians believe the same as well. Hindus have their own beliefs that tells them that they alone will enjoy in the afterlife. It that is true then it also doesn't matter. Why should a christian be good in this life if Allah is true when he will only end up in hell in the after life? Why should a Muslim, a Taoist and an Hindu be good if Jesus is the only way to God and they will all end up in hell in the after life? You aren't producing valid arguments only empty rhetoric.

Image123:
Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? You forgot to answer that. God is good because He is the definition of good, it is like asking why the letter A is 'A'. God is good and anything ungodly is not good. It is now apart from that NATURE of God that we can look at the deeds of God and still say He is good, everything that good is is in God and approved by God. So, when we say God is good, it is His nature and character, and then His deeds. Can God's goodness be tested, i suppose so. What are the parameters you use to test good? God is the definition and standard of what good is. He is the plumb rule as it were, we measure everything against Him as it were. To be good is to be what God wants you to be, to be suitable to God.

So if God says killing of those that do not worship him is good then it becomes good right?

tevinsolt:
again you don't know what you're talking about, go back to those verses and read in context.

since you don't get it I'm going to have to explain to you
If there's no God, the first living cell came about as a result of time and chance.
due to this simple theory, everything in the universe as we know is physical and tangible, no metaphysical.
knowing this can you point to an element on the periodic table with a feeling, emotion, an element that understands the concept of justice. cause in case you didn't know these are the physical properties our bodies are made of.
What I here you say is this --(we some how got here by a [cosmic accident], these elements came together and voila we have this awesome brain that can somehow grasp this metaphysical concepts but I don't fully understand the leap, so I'll just say empathy)
the scenario I gave you was one where morality was truly subjective! obviously in the real world it isn't although it appears to be, no one can live out moral subjectivity!
according to Darwin's theory of evolution nature selects only the species that are best fitted or able to survive the test of time (survival of the fittest). when Europeans started buying and taking slaves from Africa or when they came again the second time to colonize 99.9% of the continent, they had an advantage, guns and warships large organized infantry if they had wiped every African out there and then (if moral is truly subjective) there will be nothing wrong with. They were best suited to take us out.

I keep saying that even with God everything you say has already been sanctioned. The genocide you talk about was sanctioned by God in the bible. All the Amalekietes and Canaanites were to be totally annihilated. It's there in the bible. Slavery was sanctioned by God in the bible. The bible contains a lot of immorality that God sanctioned and promoted. Genocide, racism, sexism, land grab you name it. Morality is what we humans invented and learned over the years. We are still refining it as we go along. God is not the basis for human morality, humans are, we only use God as an enforcing mechanism. That is obviously clear. You have not made any case for God as the basis of human morality, you just keep begging the question. Morality in the real world is not objective as such there is no universally accepted set of morality or moral principles.

tevinsolt:
nothing you've said about the endorsement of slavery and rape are obviously ridiculous points used by agnostic/atheist all the time, so I'm not even gonna bother about those. If there's no God there's no good and evil in the objective sense. meaning that what you think is wrong is right to someone else since there are no instructions that guide the way should treat each other. The implication of this is, when a helpless person is getting assaulted in front of you, then you can't confront the rapist, but you can though say is, from my perspective I understand that's your morality but from my point of view is that it is wrong.

You keep making empty statements that you can not defend. With God slavery was sanctioned in the bible. Rapist were told to marry their victims in the bible. Parents were told to stone their disobedient children to death inside the bible. ISIS is presently spreading terror around in the name of God and divine command theory. Humans over the years have thought themselves to appreciate empathy and to think about others. We have a brain that enables us to do that. When I see a guy raping a lady I can empathize with her, knowing that he is taking her against her will and causing her pain in the process. That alone is enough reason for me to act of I can or call for help. Doesn't need God in anyway ,because with God in the bible rape was permitted.

Image123:
Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? Unfortunately though, your definition of perfection is just not mine, but i will still bother. People can do good deeds, but it does not make them good.

You still haven't shown us how the God you believe in is good. What do you mean when you say god is good? Can your God's goodness be tested? If yes, how? If no, then why do you keep spewing that rhetoric? What does it mean to be good?

tevinsolt:
I'll grant that subjective good and evil exist, Objectively it doesn't if what you're saying is true. I don't care about other gods, I'm gonna be giving based on the Judeo-Christian God. the bible confirms we have conscience, but we do violate what it tells us to do hence the provision of the 10 commandment tablets. there are actions that are frowned upon in every culture on the planet, murder, rape, stealing, cheating, lying, the civilization of these ancient cultures has nothing to with what we are discussing here by the way.

We do have conscience as humans, that is what has enabled out race to developed our union and social interaction better.We are capable of learning what we see as well. So when we practice things and acts that are harmful, we could be thought to discard them if good reasons are provided to show that they are harmful to us. Rape for example started out as a good thing. Even the bible supported it. If you rape a woman you were to marry her according to the bible. People used to marry some of their women by stealing them from neighboring societies and taking them home in the ancient days. Over time people saw it as a bad thing and changed their ways. Rape became bad. Taking women as war booties was stopped something that was encouraged by God in the bible. Our morality today has undergone thousands of years of evolution. The God of the bible is not the one that makes laws for us. Our various legislative arms of government does that now in most societies . People did that in the past, they used God to scare people and make sure they abide by such laws. God has nothing to do with morality that is why Christians have never been shown and can never be shown to be more moral than non christians .

tevinsolt:
what you've just addressed isn't morality, what you just argued for is absolute Truth. back to morality, if morality is subjective, then you must agree to these premises.
for subjective morality to be true
then there must be no intelligent mind prior to the evolution of the human.
there are no set rules of engagement
so every human mind makes up it's own morality (which then could be shaped/influenced by societal ideals and conditions)
therefore there's no concept of good and evil.
to say good exist in this hypothetical world is to claim there's an arbitrary standard for rules of engagement (for this to be true, a God must exist)

There is no universal concept of good and evil. There is concept of good and evil in every society. It isn't universally accepted because it is a creation of humans, and it depends on the culture that created it. Good and evil exist but they are not universally accepted. There are no universally accepted rules of engagement. They exist but they aren't universal. The US congress makes laws and people must abide by it. In Saudi Arabia the clerics also make laws and people must abide by them, while the US uses the government as an enforcing mechanism in Saudi Arabia God is used as an enforcing mechanism. Morality is a creation of humans that is why it varies from place to place and is constantly evolving. It was never created by any God. There are different Gods with different moral principles. Gods are only used as enforcing mechanism, humans created all the moral codes of conduct they chose to live by in their various societies. They change them when ever they see the need to do so. There are no moral absolutes in reality, morality is fluid. Even if we are to agree that God is the source of all moral principle then which God exactly? The ancient Romans didn't get their morality from the God of the bible, neither did the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, Japanese, Mayans and Aztechs. These people built great civilizations that lasted thousands of years. The God of the bible had nothing to do with their moral foundation and principles.

Image123:
Goodness is determined by the Living God, find Him. So to you, goodness and morality evolves? Well to my God, it is the same to a large extent. The contents of the Bible remain unchanged and unrevised.
Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Same empty rhetoric. Goodness is determined by humans. Reality shows that goodness and morality evolves. Was it not the God of the bible that was telling people to stone enslave others as a good thing. is slavery a good thing? Even the bible moral principles have changed from the old testament to the new testament.

Anything that is truly goodness has already been determined by God and is seen in the Bible or alluded to. Also, the fellowship of God's Spirit tally with and reinforce to the individual worshipper, the fact that God has set the world in our hearts and determined what is good and best for us.

More empty rhetoric that addresses nothing completely.

What moral injunctionss and principles written inside the bible are considered to be bad in many societies including christian societies. Kindly mention three?

1. Women are not supposed to teach men in church or usurp their authority. Men are more valuable than women and men are head of the women. It goes to say that the woman was created for the man.

"Ephesians 5 22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything"

Most western societies that believe in the bible have long discarded that principle. They find it offensive when you claim that the man is the head of the woman or that women need to be submissive to men. That is considered as sexism. Gender equality is what is prevalent in most western societies including those that are christain.

2. Jesus advocates that people should be passive.

If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

Most Christians have discarded this moral teaching. Non that I know abides by it any where.

3. Believers are not to take each other to court but they are to go to the church to settle their differences. Again most Christians have discarded that moral teaching. (1 Corinthians 6)

There are moral absolutes in God. Only folks who do not know God will say that there are no moral absolutes. So that tomorrow, if the society evolves to nudity for instance, they are okay with it. What you are saying is what i have being telling johnydon22 so that he can tell us his own version of morality instead of vaguely implying that everybody has the same standard of what good is.

There are no moral absolutes in the real world. Forget about the world of religion and it's unverifiable claims and stories, in the real world there are no moral absolutes. People do not all have the same standard of goodness. Go to India, Saudi Arabia, Israel and USA all have very different standard of what is good and bad. No moral absolutes anywhere in the world.

So in some places in Nigeria and Egypt, some leaders are bringing some humans to think that it is good to blow up themselves and kill people because they belong to another religion. Imagine if all religions and irreligions are that way, thinking/feeling it good to kill people that are not on their side. That is chaos, not morality. This is why it is important to have one standard, an higher umpire and moral law giver.

The bible is filled with verse where God told people to kill others because they worship other Gods. You have no feet to stand on here.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

i believe and the Israelites believe that God gave them laws. You do not have all the knowledge and facts as to just say otherwise. i cannot take your word by faith, i'd rather take the words of the Bible by faith instead. So, if you have anything significant to say, you say it with facts and evidence. We are the believers, not you.

Which God gave them laws? Where you there? Why believe that God gave the Israelites laws and not the Muslims and Hindus that make the same claim as well?

tevinsolt:
to save us the back and forth, if morality is subjective, there's no right and wrong, it is just what it is. Everyone believes their morality is the truth.

There is right and wrong according to how people define it. Muslims believe that the Sharia system of morality is the best system of morality because the system came from God himself. Majority of the people living in the world disagree. Christians believe that the moral principles written inside the bible is the best. Alot of people disagree as well. What does it mean to be good with God. You haven't demonstrated that to me. Morality is a human creation it has nothing to do with God. Gods are used only as an enforcing mechanism when human create their different moral codes of conduct. In advance societies government is the enforcing mechanism.

tevinsolt:
how can you in the same paragraph claim morality is subjective and then still say an action is wrong. If believe eating rice is wrong and but you don't, none of us is neither right nor wrong. you can't a line crooked unless you have some idea of a straight line

Why are we having problems in the world today if all of us agree on the same moral principles? Morality is subjective. Gay union is wrong in Nigeria but not wrong in most part of European Union for example. In America I can stand my ground and kill you if I feel threatened by your actions. In Nigeria it's even wrong for me as a civilian to own a gun. Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia while women are allowed to marry more than one man among some tribes living in the Amazon. Who told you that morality isn't subjective? Where is your evidence for that?

tevinsolt:
good thing you said "exterminate". If they had, what does it matter?
If Germans had won the war and had took it upon themselves to kill out the less evolved races. so what's wrong with that? that's more land and more resources for the master Aryan race. you talk as if staying alive has a bigger picture to it or that the existence of humans on earth is of uttermost importance when everything will end shortly in few million years. one thing I got you to do though is admit that society is determines morality.

That's what I have been saying all along. Society is what determines morality. Morality is a function and construction of human societies. According to the bible God told the Israeli to exterminate all the people whose land he gave them either for worshipping other Gods or for attacking his chosen people and sometimes just because they have inhibited the land he promised his chosen people. Many Christians try their very best to spin it around and claim it was a good action when it is clearly wrong. They fail to see the bad in their own God's actions and deeds but are quick to point out that of their rival Muslim God. The winners always write history and try to justify their evil deeds on way or the other. America lied to the world and invade Iraq in 2003, many still belive that their invasion was justified because the history is being written by them.

tevinsolt:
mouse eat their babies, lions kill their cubs and so on. Animals have instincts, our understanding and interpretation of the world is what we project on them. If there's no God, then all you have is highly evolved instincts, if you're killed by another human, it doesn't matter because you're basically just dead

If you kill another man it matters because his own will come after you and kill or harm you and your own. If you go about killing each other you will exterminate each other. Please read about the native American tribes that almost exterminated each other because of how violent they were towards each other. It was so bad that the 5 rival tribes had to come together and put and end to it. They came up with laws never to fight each other but to settle their disputes through dialogue.our ability as humans to self reflect is what makes us different from other social animals.

Image123:
Goodness is determined ONLY by God because truth and goodness is absolute. Even in our world, we try to get just one body to approve or standardize things. That way there is no or less chaos. If everybody is determining what is good, there will be chaos, because your definition of good may not be my definition of good. There has to be a higher appeal/authority, what we call a moral law giver.
If i am brilliant, and i attend classes, buy textbooks, read and study etc. At one point in Nigeria, i need to get a form from WAEC to write my school leaving certification examinations. In this case, WAEC is the higher authority, the approved body as it were. i cannot just say i am brilliant and i know it all and not register under WAEC. Even if i know the exam dates, come for the exams, write the exams etc, i do not get anything because all my over sabi is not under authority. Even someone not as brilliant or good as i am will have certificate while i do not have. Why? Because he registered, i did not. God is good because He created good, and has commanded everything that is good. His good is the certified good as it were, all other good is counterfeit waste.

Goodness is determined by which God? Allah, Brahma, Yahweh, Rah Amun? Which God exactly because we know that goodness and morality as a whole has been shown to have evolved over time among the human race. Conquered races take up the culture of their masters. You are yet to show how God alone has determined what goodness is why it is true. Many moral injunctionss and principles written inside the bible are considered to be bad in many societies including christian societies. There are no moral absolutes in this world. Societies through various leaders (political and religious )determine what is right or wrong. No God has ever been shown to give any law to any society rather people make laws for themselves and use their various ideas amd concept of God and government as an enforcing mechanism. Goodness is a creation of men it has nothing to do with God Since there are many different Gods each with different concept of goodness.

tevinsolt:
before I get myself entangled in all this questions. human life is no more meaningful than that of other animals if there's no God. the meat you eat is killed no one complains, why is it ok to kill every other animals but wrong for one human to kill another human? have you thought about it, is it because we are so special or what. If God created humans, then every one has innate value and worth, violation of that is a crime against the person and the creator, knowing this the violator will be judged for his/her actions.

all those other questions are irrelevant to the point where trying to ash out here.

Morality is simply a human construct that is why only humans abide by it fully. Some animals can show empathy and some rudimentary form of morality. We are social animals and have a brain that is greater than that of all other animals when it comes to social living. Humans had to learn and create what ever values and customs they chose to live by. That is what history and anthropology has shown us. Or system of morality had to evolve through thousands of years to what it is now. No God has ever created any moral system for humans. Humans did that and use God and what ever form of religion or government they created as an enforcing mechanism. All moral codes are man made. until you can show any God creating a moral system alone without human input then you have no reason to say that God is the basis for any morality. By the way different Gods have different moral principles, so which moral principle are we even talking about?

johnydon22:
Nice one bro dont be surprised when he turns it upside down

They keep making wild and blind assertions that they can't demonstrate to be true.

wisdompraise:
You can't claim to be moral without the fear of God. The final prove of your morality will be measured by how much you fear and reverence God the author of morality.

So put God aside you will fine that nobody will be moral.

Many people are moral without God. Many are immoral because of God. ISIS is presently beheading people and spreading their terror because of God. Before them Christians did worse all in the name of God. God doesn't make people moral or good. Its a great fallacy.

tevinsolt:
to admit there's goodness is a truth statement that incites an innate worth of humans, and by so doing, you imply we have a responsibility to ourselves and others to carry out what is morally good. Inanimate objects don't have this sense of responsibility so do animals with the exception of homo sapiens. If there's no God, we have no value anymore than a piece of rock on the ground, so whatever you do to forge ahead in life (not caring who you hurt while doing so) it doesn't matter, because the end justifies the means. If there's no God, what you do with your life from when you were born till your last breath is meaningless because our solar system is one giant dynamite waiting to detonate.

Can you show me any value or moral system that wasn't created by man? Please show me one moral system that was created by God alone and not by man. Show me a moral system that was created by God alone without man in the picture. How does God make human life meaningful? Demonstrate that claim please. How is life meaningless without God. And which God by the way. Is the life of the christian more meaningful than that of the Hindu? Can you show that to be true? What about the life of the atheist? Is the life of a muslim better than that of an atheist? Can you demonstrate that to be true? How does God makes people's lives meaningful here on earth? Show me one moral system that God alone created, tell me why God created it and when he created it alone without human input.

Image123:
How do you determine that "Your beliefs doesnt make you a good person, your behaviour does". How do you arrive at these conclusions? i do not think that the hindus or the muslims believe that they are good. They believe that they have to do a lot of good. i'm not good because of any good that i have done. Why do you want or encourage me to be good for GOODNESS'sake? Is it okay for me to be good for God's sake?

How and why is goodness determined only by God? demonstrate to me with clear examples what it means to be good only because it takes God to be good. Why can't a person be good without God? How is God good and what makes goodness to exist only because of God?

Can any body help me with any link for live streaming please?

Great videos plaetton, as usual most won't take anything from this videos.

Religion is nothing but social conditioning.

muafrika:
Is it possible, Dalaman, for such an experience to be a true experience, but of nothing to do with God? Is that why you are asking for details?

It's very possible. He might be hallucinating or his mind might be playing games with him as is always the case. Religious experience like these cut across all religions. Muslims have visions and dreams about Mohammed. Hindus and Buddisht do same. I was reading about a Shia muslim that claimed he gets vision of one of the caliphs. Religious experience is a function of the brain. Catholics get to see Mary appear to them or some of the saints they believe in etc. Your sect and beliefs always affect the types of visions you get. It's all a function of the mind.