₦airaland Forum

tctrills:
So according to you, the bible teaches that we are the cells of God? The verse only states that God is the source of our live, strength and abilities that's actually the opposite of what your teach.
The cells give life to the organism.
The scripture you quoted is opposed to the doctrine you are teaching.

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Please and please I never said we are the cells in God's body. For heavens sake I don't even believe God has a body. I simply asked what you thought of it. These are philosophical ruminations and the idea that everything that exists is a part of the body of God is also an ancient one. It is called panentheism, to be distinguished from pantheism.

Having said that, the verse I quoted does not say God is our source it specifically indicates that we live and move and have our being in God.

tctrills:
Actually that's not what he is saying. You can go back and review this thread, he isn't talking about being created in the image of God or that we share His attributes.

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But your scripture gives credence to it -

"For in him we live and move and have our being; as even some of your own poets have said..." — Acts 17:28

In this, Paul was actually citing the Cretan philosopher Epimenides, and agreeing with him.

tctrills:
So are you saying that the sacrifice of Christ was unjust to Him or unjust to mankind?

Now, this is clearly your opinion and you adapted this opinion because of your dislike for the religion.

First, Jesus Christ's sacrifice was a willing sacrifice because of His love for us.

Secondly, in nature, it's very common to seen the actions of one having consequences for many.

Third, you are looking at death from a limited and narrow angle. This is what Jesus Christ said about His death.
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

It seems you are just vigorously searching for a reason to fault Christianity.

Now if the wages of sin is death, it would have been unjust if that sin is forgiven without the wages paid? So you seem to have it completely mixed up.

Jesus Christ's sacrifice showed 2 things.
1. God's Justice in that the wages of sin was fully paid.
2. God's mercy in that through the atonement of Christ all mankind can be saved.

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This will take us away from the intendment of this thread and I think deserves a thread of its own.

I have taken the liberty of creating one -

https://www.nairaland.com/8632938/tctrills-repugnant-aspects-christian-doctrine

Following from your comments here -

https://www.nairaland.com/8621001/lordreed-revisiting-simulation-reality/2#138721399

I would like to address the aspects of Christian doctrine which I say are absurd and even repugnant.

Let me start with your last comments -

tctrills:
So are you saying that the sacrifice of Christ was unjust to Him or unjust to mankind?

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My position is that the death of Jesus of Nazareth can by no means serve as a propitiatory sacrifice for anyone's sins under divine justice. Scripture itself is clear when it says that God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows the same shall he reap - Galatians 6:7.

This is a clear enunciation of the principle of Karma. And so long as this principle holds true it will remain absurd and contradictory for one person to bear the sins of another. Such a scenario would refute the justice of God.

Now, this is clearly your opinion and you adapted this opinion because of your dislike for the religion.

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This is upside down. I do not adopt the opinion because I dislike the religion. I dislike the religion because of teachings like that within it.

First, Jesus Christ's sacrifice was a willing sacrifice because of His love for us

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This is highly contestable because in Gethsemane, Jesus ardently prayed for the cup to pass over his head if it were possible.

Secondly, in nature, it's very common to seen the actions of one having consequences for many.

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Of course, but this is entirely different from the matter of spiritual consequences for individual actions. Only you can bear the spiritual consequences of your actions.

Third, you are looking at death from a limited and narrow angle. This is what Jesus Christ said about His death.
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

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Why then did he plead with the father for the cup to pass over his head, saying "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." -

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." - Matthew 26:39.

It seems you are just vigorously searching for a reason to fault Christianity.

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I contest the virgin birth, the idea of the propitiatory sacrifice for remission of sins, the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity.
I accept the elevated teachings of Christ on love, growth, detachment from the world and forgiveness.

Now if the wages of sin is death, it would have been unjust if that sin is forgiven without the wages paid? So you seem to have it completely mixed up.

Jesus Christ's sacrifice showed 2 things.
1. God's Justice in that the wages of sin was fully paid.
2. God's mercy in that through the atonement of Christ all mankind can be saved.

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How come animals die. Have they also sinned.

Angelfrost:
Trump is an idiot with too much money and power... This always leads to disaster for everyone around him.


Just look at the senseless waste of lives and resources... Not to mention the economic hardship on the rest of the world.


The idiot clearly didn't realize that Iran hard the trump card (pun well intended) since the main oil line runs through their backyard (Strait of Hormuz).

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Obviously not. There was zero thinking put into the whole thing. It surprises me how Trumpists try to paint the clown as brilliant. If the man farts, they would call it a chess move.

triplechoice:
I will come back later to answer your reply up there, but in the meantime, please do me this favour, which will benefit you too..

My replies to Chieveboy are being hidden despite containing no violations of forum rules. I suspect he has weaponised the report button to trigger auto-moderation for obvious reasons: he cannot defend his position and admit he deliberately edited my comments to misrepresent me.

So please ask him this on my behalf;?

If he claims to be saying the same thing being discussed here, that authentic esoteric traditions teach simulation, then why does he place the words "computer" and "simulation" in quotation marks every time he reference the idea?

This question is part of what my hidden replies contained. I ask him directly but my posts keeps disappearing .

Putting words in quotes like that signals that he is not taking them literally. It means he has a different understanding, one that he won't openly state because he wants to appear in agreement with you while actually holding a different position.

I know what Eckankar teaches concerning the nature of this world because I was once part of the group. They teach that the world was created by Divine spirit as a training ground for souls to attain spiritual maturity and eventually become a co-worker with God. Nothing in their teaching says the world is a computer simulation created by advanced beings


Does he believe this world is literally computer simulation or does he mean something else? And if something else what is it?

I cannot ask him directly myself because my replies are hidden. But perhaps you can.

Thank you.

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Chieveboy I am asked to refer this post to you for your comments.

HacheNoire:
Hello!

We might not have gotten there but assured that under the administration of His Excellency, President Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu (GCFR), we are making progress.

Our great country is not a shithole. We have our challenges just like every other nation.

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You mean under the leadership of Rattigan?

Quelme:
Just don't run away. You don buy market.

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Its obvious he is preparing to run away. He has seen that the thing is more complex than he thought.

Angelfrost:
The truth is... Trump terribly underestimated Iran's military capability.

Now, the world will pay the price economically.

Biggest irony is how the citizens of Iran, even those who were protesting, have suddenly banded together in support for their country!

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In fact, to say he underestimated Iran is an understatement.
He thought the Maduro method would work there.

Iran has won this one. Hands down.

twilliamx:
Nokia 3310. Thank me later

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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

WizardOfNG:
Dont mind them. When some of us warned that the arbitrary, dictatorial, lawless and bullying actions of dictators like Hitler, Trump etal must not be supported and endorsed blindly, because such may bring untold pain and suffering to many, they will tell you "shut up terror sympathiser".

What is Tinubu to do over the actions of Trump, the messiah of some Nigerians, that has now plunged the world into a fuel crisis that may persist and worsen the longer the conflict with Iran endures?

Same people who literally told Trump to do as he pleases with Nigeria and the world are today complaining and blaming Tinubu over the results of the rash actions of Trump they now want to blame PBAT for.

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Fair enough and I agree but this does not mean our FG should keep sealed lips in a situation like this.

Ayomid3h:
2 USD as at now in USA which is 1300 Naira in Nigeria

2 USD is 3k Naira in Nigeria

Stop blaming tinubu and his government

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Why should you even compare Nigeria to the USA in the first place? Does that make any sense, comparing one of the poorest countries to the richest country? And given the completely different scenarios applicable to each even in the production to refining to distribution process? What exactly is wrong with you guys?

tctrills:
Lol
You only find problems with what you don't like.
If you can entertain the idea that you are a cell in the body of a God buts a virgin birth somehow becomes a bridge to far for you. You are the absurd one here.

You are open to crazy ideas just not Christianity.

But I have no problem with you because you are just like most human beings, you act based on feelings and emotions. And it's not necessarily a bad thing

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It defies divine justice to claim that the sins of one person are forgiven because another person is killed. It is also akin to ritual human sacrifice.

tctrills:
Lol
You criticise the things you don't know when you don't like them, e.g Christianity. And then you promote the things you have no idea about when they somehow appeal to you.

We humans are all the same. We all seek something to believe in

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Christianity, barring the elevated teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, has clear problems. Teachings such as the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the Trinity and the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ for remission of sins are all self evidently absurd and contradictory.

LordReed -

So in the OP, I had also highlighted these. Can we quickly run through them before moving on to general thoughts free-hand.

2. The Universe's "Pixel Rate" (The Planck Scale) In a digital world, you can only zoom in so far before you hit a pixel—a minimum unit of space. In our universe, there is a theoretical "smallest" possible length called the Planck Length.T he Sim Argument: If the universe were truly "natural" and analog, you should be able to divide space infinitely. The fact that there is a hard "resolution limit" suggests our reality may be discrete (made of bits) rather than continuous.
----Culled.

This is why I mentioned how our reality is pixelated. Zooming in one can see that it is so constructed in bits. This again is a pointer.

3. The "Processor Speed" (The Speed of Light) Just as a computer processor has a maximum clock speed that limits how fast information can travel across a circuit board, our universe has a universal speed limit: the speed of light.

4. The Mathematical Universe Hypothesis: Max Tegmark, a cosmologist at MIT, argues for the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH). He notes that the deeper we look into reality, the more the "physical" stuff disappears, leaving only mathematical structures behind. The Argument: If you look at a video game character, they look like a person, but they are actually just a collection of numbers and equations. Tegmark argues that since our universe is perfectly described by math, it may literally be a mathematical structure (or a program) rather than a physical thing that math just happens to describe.

chieveboy:
Ultimately my contribution for this thread with you as the conductor is this:

1: No such thing as "pseudoscience" because fundalmentally, "logical soundness" (repeatable procedures with rational outcomes) are surprisingly subjective from varying angles and all angles. This goes for what you call reality and how any instance of it is not IT but an agreement that it is it. I have a thread on that and I hope it lays the foundation for your understanding that reality is indeed a simulation, in a 'computer'. All serious spiritual workers assert this publicly while knowing so internally counter to your earlier claim elsewhere. All reality is subjective in a simulative environment availed with a collective-observance properties or interfaces at which the agreements or acceptances are done.

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A most interesting take. You generally agree that this world is a sort of artificial rendition or simulation?

tctrills:
Ok, you don't even believe this but you having this argument just for the sake of it.
So let's go on, even if we are cells in the body of a great God, were we created? When we die, does the God lose cells?
Let's develop this theory as much as we can.

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These questions belong in the realm of the unknowable surely.

triplechoice:
First, your title "Simulation Theory" is a misnomer. The correct term is "Simulation Argument" or Simulation Hypothesis, as found in the very sources you took it from. In the sciences, a "theory" is a well-tested explanation for phenomena supported by evidence. A "hypothesis" is an educated guess awaiting proof. Yours is the latter. It lacks empirical evidence. Changing hypothesis to theory inflates its status and mislead your audience.

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Fair enough.

Third, "logically sound and rationally consistent" is not evidence or proof of anything. It is merely the minimum requirement for any argument. History is replete with ideas that were perfectly logical and coherent at the time, but later turned out to be nonsense. Logic without evidence is just story telling

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Nonetheless logic remains the pillar for these discussions.

Fourth, you point to philosophers debating the idea as proof it deserves serious consideration, not mockery. But philosophers debate all kinds of ideas, many of which turn out to be fiction. What is important is not those discussing it, but whether there is evidence. In this case, there is no shred of evidence we are living in a simulation. The Idea has been rejected by numerous philosophers and top scientists who call it exactly what it is; myth and pseudoscience

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In philosophy it is natural to have differing viewpoints. Indeed I would say that is the very life blood of philosophy. One thing which I want to make clear here is that i am not here to strictly advance Simulation Theory (or hypothesis if you like) in the way it has been propounded by others. Rather I seize upon the core idea that we may not be living in a real or base reality, that there may be something conjured or artificial about this reality and I would like to discuss that notion in different directions, via science, philosophy and even religious thought. LordReed please note.

Fifth, the Idea lacks any spiritual or philosophical support. No authentic esoteric tradition has ever taught that we live in a computer prigram run by invisible beings. Those spreading this falsehood have misinterpreted genuine spiritual teachings, like "the world is an illusion" or "As above, so below" both metaphoric references, and grafted them onto a modern sci-fi or Sci-Sp narrative.

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My dear friend, how on Earth would any older traditions advance the notion from the computer angle when no such thing as computers existed until the 20th century?

It should be clear to you, following from my comment in red above, that when I say this idea has existed for millenia, I am referring to the basic idea that this world is only a reflection or shadow of more real worlds. And there is no doubt that this is an ancient idea.

I already cited Plato's Allegory of the Cave and it is pre-eminent in this regard, but here, I dug up a list of other ancient ideas which align -

--------
1. Plato’s Allegory of the Cave (Ancient Greece)
Perhaps the most famous "shadow" metaphor in history, Plato argued in The Republic that humans are like prisoners chained in a cave, watching shadows flick across a wall.

The Concept: The shadows are the physical objects we see daily. The "real" world consists of the Theory of Forms—abstract, perfect versions of things (like the concept of "Beauty" or "a Circle " ) that exist in a higher plane.

The Takeaway: Our senses deceive us; we are looking at the projection, not the projector.

2. Maya in Advaita Vedanta (Ancient India)
In Hindu philosophy, particularly Advaita Vedanta, the concept of Maya describes the world as a powerful illusion or a "magic show."

The Concept: The material world is not "non-existent," but it is not the Ultimate Reality (Brahman). It is often compared to a "superimposition"—like mistaking a coiled rope for a snake in the dark.

The Takeaway: The physical universe is a temporary, shifting reflection of the eternal, unchanging consciousness.

3. Gnosticism and the "Kenoma" (Hellenistic Period)
Gnosticism, a collection of early mystical religious movements, took a more radical approach to the "shadow" idea.

The Concept: They believed the material world was the Kenoma (the Void or Emptiness), a flawed reflection of the Pleroma (the Fullness of the divine spiritual realm).

The Takeaway: We are "sparks of light" trapped in a lower, shadowy imitation of the true divine realm, created by a lesser deity known as the Demiurge.

4. Hermeticism: "As Above, So Below" (Ancient Egypt/Greece)
The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus provides the foundation for the idea of correspondence.

The Concept: The "Microcosm" (our world/ourselves) is a direct reflection of the "Macrocosm" (the divine/universe).

The Takeaway: Everything on Earth is a symbolic mirror of a spiritual truth. If you want to understand the heavens, look at the patterns in the dirt—and vice versa.

5. Sufi Mysticism: The World as a Mirror (Ancient Persia/Middle East)
Many Sufi poets and philosophers, such as Rumi and Ibn Arabi, described the universe as a series of mirrors reflecting the attributes of the Divine.

The Concept: God was a "hidden treasure" who desired to be known, so He created the world as a mirror to reflect His own beauty and light.

The Takeaway: Objects in this world have no light of their own; they are merely surfaces catching the "sunlight" of a spiritual source.
----Culled

Thus, above you can see that you are wrong when you claim that there are no ancient philosophical ideas that rhyme with what I am saying. There are. Indeed, ancient philosophy and mysticism are rich with this very idea. cc: Tctrills.

So when you see criticism of this idea, please don't take it personally. The mockery is not directed at you, but at an idea that presents itself as profound but collapses under the slightest scrutiny

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I dont mind criticism and I should emphasize that I am not saying that I know the world to be a simulation for a fact. I am saying it is a serious proposition to ponder with sobriety and not a silly fringe idea to be mocked. It has deep roots in ancient thought and Simulation Theory is not the first variant of the whole idea, its just one modern variation based on possible computer science.

LordReed:
I can grant it (even though it is in dispute) because it doesn't take away from the fact that the wave function doesn't collapse which is what I said.

Now that we have that settled, what about consciousness affecting this experiment then means the universe is a simulation or illusion or however you want to describe it other than real?

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High Eminence Reed. Apologies for appearing to drop out of this conversation, the last two weeks have been rather trying for me.
Now to answer the bold, its very simple: the minute we can show that consciousness affects what is rendered, then a question mark on object permanence pops up naturally. Because the suggestion then becomes cardinal that what is rendered may be determined by what is observing. This calls into question any assumption that we are living in some sort of fixed or "real" reality and surely advances the cause of the argument that our reality is rendered based on a set of given factors which include the observer/ observation.

Now I know very well that you may dispute this, but I would like that you at least see the reasoning even if you disagree with it, and at all events whether you agree or disagree I would like us to move on to other points because there are many and we should not get stuck here.

"When people benefit from a system, they rarely complain about it. When the same system no longer favors them, they suddenly see the problem."

These words from the OP are so true and apply in many other aspects of life beyond this topic.

Azazyel:
Cos it doesn't align with your views. Very funny human being

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Not about my views. Any view that the actions of the USA in these matters are borne of altruism is naïve.

This was the most charismatic president Iran ever had.

MrsAyomide:
Real leadership will choose peace and reform, but no, Iran supporters in Nigeria who are not sure of their next meal are here cheering Iran to their doom..

Their latest line of defence now is that they are “Martyrs”

lol. Funny people

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You are the funny one if you believe that you should back down once someone invades your house and starts killing your family and beating your people.

horlique:
If you think any country is perfectly shield from attacks then u must be watching too much fake Hollywood movies,even the Big USA can be attacked..

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I was specific in what I wrote. I did not say what you are implying. I said Trump cannot bomb Switzerland and I stand by it. If you think he can, then you also need either school or hospital.

Wotowotoman:
Was Jona better than Buhari? Na only God know who worse pass between Jona and Bubu. The worst presidents in the history of this country. Very weak men that had no idea what running a local government was. Then you make them president and expect them to do what? Trash 🗑️ 🚮

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Everyone knows the worst are the last two. The present being the worst, worse than even the worst military government.

reddingtonblack:
From your excuses, compromised, intimidated which are still baseless though, it is as Good as saying On your mandate we shall stand

If a child is doing something bad and the parent watch on without trying to correct we might as well conclude the Parent are complicit

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I want to advise you never to write or utter the bold anywhere even as an analogy because it is in truth a demonic chant specially crafted by Satan himself in the presence of thirteen princes of hell, the great witch of darkness, several child-eating ritualists in the astral realm and given to a monstrous frog to be propagated in the Earth. Dont cite those words again because that may initiate you into a demonic ring that you cant understand.

What? Are minors allowed to create topics? Female minors?

reddingtonblack:
if you insisted Trump has violated and wreck the constitution then why have the congress not move to Sanction him or maybe they are in support of his actions

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Some are. Others are intimidated. Others are compromised. It's a complex mix but I don't think there has been a president in living memory who has shunted aside Congress the way he has.

reddingtonblack:
please shut up if you went to school to play

BY hierachy and constitutional provision the president is granted more power thats why president can give executives orders and grant pardons that over rides court convictions

Sani is just being dvmb as usual, what i expect him to have acclaimed is Trump is more powerful than Americans citizens he treat them like shit,

THE question to shehu sani and empty heads that support him, can Trump violate us citizens the way Tinubu gallantly treat Nigeria like nothing, can Trump pack US children that protest nd throw them into jail for treason

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It's obvious you are the one who needs some schooling. There is a constitutional order in the US which Trump has absolutely wrecked.

As for human rights, ICE and many other issues have destroyed that myth.

horlique:
If Trump drop bombs there. They will understand that those monies mean nothing without any defence

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If you think it's possible for Trump to bomb Switzerland you really need either school or a hospital.

dappydozzy:
It is high time you just leave these numbskulls alone on Nairaland, majority of them are Gen-Z, what do Gen-Z's in my dear Kwantry know? do they even know their country's history, talkless of world history.

Their opinions is always guided by what they read on social media, watch on western media and Nollywood, they are mentally colonised. They dont actually understand the term " terrorism". Terrorism has being around since ancient times till modern times. Nations have sponsoring terrorism against each other since World war 1. Many GenZs think terrorism is just when a group terrorises a community or nation. When a country sponsors fighters to destabilize a region for economic/political gain, such country is involved in terrorism, A lot of countries are involved in terrorism around the world which includes the US including countries in Africa are involved on terrorism but it takes deep knowledge and understanding international politics to analyse these issues.
The CIA is a terrorist training organisation as well as an intelligence agency, they have trained several dissident and militia groups to destabilize countries in the past like Angola, DRC, Cuba , Afghanistan during the Cold War.
The more you know about international politics, the more you can analyse global issues without seeming like a fool or an ignoramus on Nairaland .

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Thank you.

To add to what you and RealLordZeus have said, many of these children don't know that the UK branded Nelson Mandela a terrorist and the US kept him on its terrorism watchlist till as late as 2008.

What am I even saying sef, I am sure some of them don't know of Mandela.