₦airaland Forum

GloriousGbola:
no abrahmic religion was against slavery.
no abrahmic religion was pro democracy
all abrahmic religions managed to align with despotic leaders

democracy is a concept that was introduced by idolators in greece. why would any true christian adopt any of the lifestyles choices of flagrant unbelievers ?

there are enough genocidal exhortations in all the holy books and far right maga for all their anti islam rhetoric is chomping a the bit to bring the same to America.

the original immigrants to america were documented as being religiously problematic at home - and they got to america , away from home control and we got the salem witch trials with people being hanged and pressed.

revisionism is also not going to erase the spanish inquisition or the divine right of kings, fully endorsed by the church.

this is why education is so important and why the right is doing their best to destroy public education and erase museums

that way the ignorance we see proudly on display here every day will become the standard and people will only now the whitewashed history they are told. that is why we are having ridiculous arguments about how white slavery was somehow more humane than slavery practiced by arabs or africans. enough time and we will see the white mans burden being rolled out as a homily

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Too well sad. Bless you.

basilico:
Christendom didn't have slave markets. Imperialism in the Americas is when they started buying slaves from mostly Arabs slave traders.
If you look at Islam , it's spread is anchored in capturing slaves especially women and girls who are a gift to the fighters. Allah's messenger used to take 10% of captured loot including women slaves, the choicest in the particular case of the Jew Saffiya whose husband Kinana he ordered murdered after torturing him to reveal where he had hidden the wealth of the Jewish people he was entrusted with.( He placed live coals on his chest as part of the torture).
So Islam at it's core has sanctioned capture of slaves who are also sold off with numerous buyers available.

You saw that with ISIS and also with Hamas within the last decade. ISIS established a slave market in Raqqa where esp Yazidis girls and women were bought and sold off.
In the Europe spread of Islam millions of Europeans especially women were captured ,enslaved and sold off.

Calling the imperialists the worst violators while leaving out the Arabs is being insincere by all means.

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The founder was a terrible fella regrettably.

ono:
And there you go. You’re bringing the natural man thing into this conversation- the way buda would. It won’t work. Besides, you probably are making a wrong assumption about the "slavery of Paul's days" You have to go back in time and get surrounded by the circumstances of Paul's days for you to fully appreciate what the dynamics of play was back then. You are using the 21st century mirror to look at what was the norm between 40 - 70 AD. It won't fit. It won't work!

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But it did not involve freedom of choice did it? So long as it did not, let us not deceive ourselves, it was bondage.

Now, should scripture advise people to accept bondage from their heart? Surely not.

Just as surely, thou knoweth in thy heart that thou practiceth deceit when thou speaketh of the natural man here. For thou knoweth that this is an excuse and escape route thou useth for that which causes thou discomfiture.

Let us stop this habit of trying to justify everything ancient men wrote.

ono:
Paul while writing the books (letters) of Ephesians and Colossians had a target audience in mind - as led by the Holy Spirit. That audience, as far as I can see, wasn't baby Christians, newbies and unbelievers. Read my earlier post up there. The people he wrote those books and letters to perfectly understood what admonitions/messages the Holy Spirit passed across through Paul. I don't think DeepSight is ready to understand this.

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But he knew that the slavery of his day was bondage, and that the slave did not have a free choice in it. Why would he then ask the slave to accept that bondage in his spirit, going so far as to say that the slave must not be pretending about it: that it must not be eye service but must be real?

Let us accept that Saul said many unacceptable things including advertising his male chauvinism by saying that women must be silent in fellowship.

basilico:
The people in the Bible had slaves. Did they have slave markets?

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They must have, or how would they procure slaves? Not by war, given that they were under an imperial power? Okay, even if by war, the slaves would still be distributed by sale.

But I struggle to see where you are headed with this.

ono:
At the time of the writing of the books of Ephesians and Colossians, the Romans were the sole superpower of the world. Slavery was the norm.....never frowned at in the society as it is today.

We discussed the evolution of Christianity earlier on. I thought you already acknowledged that the Christians have evolved through the ages to become the most accommodating, compassionate, loving and heaven-ward looking religion on earth as things stand today.

Have you now changed your position, after reading those verses in Colossians and Ephesians?

I will advise that you "apply" the teachings from those two verses to present day "workers or subordinates" (replace slave) and supervisors or leaders (replace masters) and re-read the verse again. Might help you.

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Once again I think you have spoken very well here, and in fact the truth is that the bold is the way I would apply it.

However, I felt compelled to point out that far from denounce a worldly norm, no matter how "legal" it was in its day, scripture sought to convince the enslaved to buy into it from the core of their spirits.

That is not Christlike - after all, Christ denounced many norms of his day.

basilico:
Okay . If you agree that's it. I'll leave it at that, for it explains the slave trade , those Middle East harems needed constant supply of women and girls from all over for 1300 years.
Besides territorial expansion and forcibly spreading Islam , slavery and war booty was a huge component too.

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Let me add (mainly for the benefit of ono and TV01) that the NT ALSO ADVOCATES SLAVERY.
In these two diabolical and insidious verses, it seeks to reach into the minds of slaves and convince them to sincerely accept slavery even in their spirits.

Ephesians 6:5 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ;"

Colossians 3:22 "Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord."

basilico:
Classical diversion. It started with an Al Azhar professor saying Islam allows muslims to r*pe women to humilate them
Now it's about Ono wasting his time teaching you sbout Bible verses for the next few months.

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Conversations evolve especially group conversations, deal with it.
Secondly you know very well that I agree with the bold.

I only pointed out that the OT advocates same. Did I do wrong by quoting scripture?
I remain a simple and humble soul.

basilico:
Muslim and their apologists usually deny everything bad direct from their books or mouths. When it's pointed out they demand full context. When that's done they ask if it's in Arabic. If in Arabic they say it must be in classical Arabic ( dialect spoken by their prophet).
If it was a classical Arabic speaker, they claim the videos are wrongly translated.
Further they can claim only 5 hadeeth books are authentic: Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawood, Sunan al-Nasa'i and Sunan al-Tirmidhi
When it's from one of they demand only verses from the Quran calling those authentic books as corrupted

After that they bring up numerous old testament verses , after which you spend the next few hours discussing the bible ......

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Generally true, and to add, they will insist on some specific scholarly exegesis or interpretation in order to dumb down barbaric verses into what can pass as acceptable.

Note however, that I am not Muslim.

Note also that Christians tend to have their own creepy ways of running away from clearly abominable verses in the bible.
TV01 and ono have demonstrated that here.

basilico:
Bemeruca is mocking you. Is it that you are full of TDS, dumb or slow?

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Et tu?

The only people suffering from the so called TDS are those who support the deranged pdfile in the Oval.

ono:
You did well to point this out DeepSight. I will answer.

You are not yet ready for the interpretation of that scriptural verse. If we start to discuss this verse now, you will bring in the wisdom of men, logic and other thoughts into it. So, no point. You have to be humble enough to allow the Holy Spirit to rule over that your cocky, "I know something" attitude. You get what I mean? Anyway, if you don't get it, forget about it

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I am a humble person by nature.
Teach me. I am all ears.

ono:
Thanks TV.

You should try to understand at my reasons for using the word “evolve” in this context. Don’t get me wrong, I fully understand the points you raised, but when you’re dealing with people who are not of the faith, we use an approach well suited to their needs - without losing the desired impact.

DeepSight is comparing Christianity to and archaic, violent and most likely a false religion (based on many of the evidences presented) called Islam. Now, Christianity is a lot much older than Islam. Islam came to the world in the 6th to 7th century AD and quickly gained adherents largely by force of arms.

Anyways, in my response to DeepSight quoting verses related to slavery and stuff from Deuteronomy and other books, it’s important to note that all the things quoted in those books are not practised by Christians today. Those instructions were even meant for the Hebrews - the children of Israel.

You can’t deny that many of the Christian practices of the Middle Ages by Catholics and even some Protestant Christians have all given way to the voice of reason snd knowledge and the overwhelming influence of the Holy Spirit. Something Islam has been unable to achieve and get their adherents to rid themselves of. In fact, as basilico pointed out in one of his entires, a female Muslim professor was seen encouraging Islam adherents to practice slavery and take women of their captors as goods to be sold or something like that.

Now speaking to what you probably are thinking, we know that:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV - but this is not the time to dwell on this bit of the scripture.

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This is generally cogent, sensible and logical. I don't disagree with the essence of what you say, except perhaps the last paragraph.

It is starkly ignorant and thoughtless for anyone to deny the evolution of Christian thought and conduct through the ages. It is blatantly ahistorical. So TV01 is in world of his own emotions there.

It is true that Islam for a large part does not appear to have made the evolution that Christianity has and this is sad when one considers the golden age of Islam during which Islamic scholarship led the world in much advanced thought.

I am always sad to say that Europe has to be very careful of Islamic migration lest a day arrives when Muslims become the majority and in that very day all the hard won liberties of Europe would be lost forever. I am sure our friend TV01 would be either surprised that I say this or call me a hypocrite for despising his lover, Tommy Robinson.

Nonetheless away from your sensitivities I am always quick to point out similarities in both books especially with regard to the manifest barbarisms in the OT and the Quoran. I don't see that quoting your own scripture should offend you. Even if I have since known that quoting the scripture of a Christian or Muslim often offends them once such a scripture reveals the dark aspects of their religion or is against what they already believe.

And oh, just by the way. If you truly believe your last paragraph then what is the issue with me quoting scripture? After all you believe that all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial not so?

GloriousGbola:
Like I said whataboutism is all you have

Since I cannot prosecute all traffic violators I should not prosecute any at all

Since Japan was not prosecuted for comfort women or for nanking it is hypocritical to prosecute Germany for six million Jews

That is your logic.

Ironically a Google search shows a record of 4 million slaves in the United States in 1860 which is less than six million Jews.




Are you about to go full Kanye west and tell us slavery was a choice? Or start hyping the benefits of being owned by a man? Maybe you should watch roots so you can understand how evil slavery was. Lizzy, kunta kintes daughter was sold off at the age of sixteen. The first thing her new massa did was r ap e her. In the series we saw mothers having to take their daughters to the overseer at night. Imagine having to take your daughter or wife to the house of your owner or one of his boys and wait outside

But hey, as long as your descendants are the 'wealthiest blacks' your suffering is all good. Of course you can also pretend that the rights of the descendants were handed to them, and that the same right wing you are celebrating is not working to remove those rights.

A bigger question is where are the black descendants of slavery in Arabia? If they were actually as many as you claim, did they just disappear? And how come there are no records of this purge, seeing as the Arabs also had writing? Or it this just the same whataboutism rumour you are spreading to give legitimatcy to white slavery?

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The chap is sick, and worse, also illiterate.

raumdeuter:
By getting rid of the Ayatollah and the Iranian top hierarchy which is a departure from handing them money

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Still repeating illiterate falsehood.

TV01:
By now it's clear that you do not come here to discuss or debate in any way that could be considered honest. It's a handful of clichés and cookie cutter narratives, outside of which there is very little evidence of any meaningful content.

I wrote on this very topic, on this same thread, not that long ago. In response to a claim you made,
https://www.nairaland.com/4508641/american-politics-thread-trump-47th/5556#137573719

Firstly, Christianity has not "evolved". It remains exactly the same - unchanging. It's the NT. Anything that could be considered a moral stricture from the OT will be contained in the NT.

Secondly, the NT does not teach that "slaves should obey their masters" without context. I explained it all in that post. That is not an endorsement, it is the most effective way to deal with the situation at that time.

In due course, Christians arose to effectively end slavery in all lands they controlled or could significantly influence - even going to war and dying to abolish it.

Slavery was legal at the advent of Christianity. A slave could not leave his master any more than a legionnaire could self-discharge from the Roman Army. That would result in death, painful death.

Christianity had no army, no political power, no meaningful social influence, nothing. It was Paul a renegade and outcast Jew and a few followers. If he had instructed all slaves who believed to declare themselves free and refuse to obey their masters, that would be their death warrant - if they could survive the initial torture that would follow any such declaration.

The NT is clear
Too slaves - Continue to obey your masters, but if you can be made free do so (all free and slave are Christ bondsmen, brought at a price)
Too slave owners - the book of Philemon, where a slave owner is exhorted to free his slave and receive him as a brother - and not by compulsion, as Christianity has that transformative effect.

Being clichéd or sounding a bit cookie is passable, but your utterance on Christianity and slavery reveal something I suspected, but didn't really want to believe.


TV

^{@ono, please stop saying Christianity has evolved. Thanks.}

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Vacant BS. Nothing schooled enough to respond to.

bayelsaowei:
Desperately rig the mid terms for a start, which he is already cooking.

Secondly, Push for a third term.

Na m-ád man.

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Rigging ain't easy.

I hope he will be removed by a Dem led Congress next year.

musicwriter:
Culture is condensed language and beliefs.

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It is more than this.

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2RightHands1Coc:
I can't debate with you,You've got your mind made up and a mind is a terrible thing to Lose

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I wish you had one.

bayelsaowei:
Because Trump is yet to do worst and most vile thing yet, for which they must shamelessly support and defend.

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What do you think it will be?

raumdeuter:
The difference that people living under a King are protesting about No Kings to a country with No king

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Daft

2RightHands1Coc:
You all just keep repeating the same cliche all the time ,Let me advise you Man,Get off that Bandwagon

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If you can give me sound reasons, why not. But you know you cant.
Let me advise you boy/.. . stop worshipping a racist, a rapist and a PDFILE.

raumdeuter:
People living in UK and Spain join a No Kings protest against Trump while living under a King

Liberals are not normal people they are insane

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I am sure you know the difference . . . . oh scratch that, I forgot no school.

2RightHands1Coc:
You obviously don't know what attributes mean .BYE

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Lol. Another brainwashed Trumpist and self hating lover of white supremacist racists.

cococandy:
He finds every opportunity to tell them what they truly are and I love it for them 🤣

How dem wan take swallow their shame and say they no longer support him? That ship has long sailed. They’ll stick with it even if it embarrasses them to death.

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GBAM!

bemeruca:
Lmao, you people don't care about outrageous things. Keep that sentiment to yourself.

Trump jokes you cry

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LLHN

2RightHands1Coc:
You don't even know what Trash is. English is your second language so it's not a problem. Anyway admit you are a Trump Hater nobody will beat you

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English is not my second language and i certainly can recognize trash when i see it. I am responding to a person who is just that right now.

And whats wrong about hating a murderer, pathological liar, pdfile, con artist, to mention a few of his attributes?

bemeruca:
You are crying about a joke 😂😂

Goodlawd

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Even when he says the most outrageous things y'all will claim one excuse or the other. Are you not the comedian who said his posting the Obamas as apes is not racist?

No sane person can ever respect you after that statement.

ono:
I find it hard to believe that you liberals -many of you professing Christians, you know all these things YET, you blindly enable policies, manipulate laws, encourage the immigration of these "primitive" people into the West. Imagine someone, a professor in her own right, still preaching these archaic, devilish teachings in this day and age, even getting an account on X! Isn't this the suicidal things about the West that me, Bas, Raum, Benalvi, and Bemeruca we are all about on this board?

What will it take for us to point the folly in all you leftist guys that what you are doing will destroy what we cherish, that we were brought up with, that shaped us and shaped Western Civilisation from the destructive path you guys tow? What?? Look at buda. What can one do to help her?

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I find it dumbfounding that many of your people who profess Christianity worship the basest and lowest vagabond in history.

2RightHands1Coc:
Just say you Hate the Man ,All this Allegations. Just take the hater tag man. Damn

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Just say you love and worship trash.

MissOpe:
Realest human i have ever seen...

So real that he doesnt give a F about his status...

He doesnt care about human validation.....
Doesnt box himself into societal expectations of him.....

So blunt and upfront that he gives his enemies sleepless night......yet he was and is the most powerful person on earth

Ride on Trump...I Ope dey your back die

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Listening to you one would think he was an honest man. When he is in fact the greatest and most pathological liar and con artist in history.