₦airaland Forum

plaetton:
I have a fascination with the our Sun, whom I call our heavenly Father.
The more I learn about our glorious orb, the more awed and humbled that I become.

I can proudly call myself a Sun Worshipper.

I am still am atheist.
Does anyone see a contradiction, and why ?

You have never been an atheist, and you know it: I wonder what prompts you to keep parading yourself as one. Surely you are too adult to do such simply to join a bandwagon.

plaetton:
Living in Nigeria, how, in your mind does an obsession with " the spiritual" make people less greedy?

What you mean to say is this - "Living in Nigeria, you can see how obsession with religion makes people more greedy."

In fact, I can make a compelling argument that spiritual quest is anchored on deep-seated selfishness, and promotes greed.

Go ahead.

raphieMontella:
bros..
you don confuse me oo

How?
What is the point of confusion?

plaetton:
@Deepsight.
All these big talk, all these big grammar,

I did not write big grammar anywhere. Not a single word would be worthy of Hon. Obahiagbon.

all these pontifications, are they not just mere speculations, more of creative imagination than reality ?

Can you sit there and tell us that all these wishful fantasies about spiritual this and spiritual that are absolute truths ?

My words exactly were -

DeepSight: I lay no claim to these being absolute truth of any kind. It's my own take, after years of reflection, just my own view.

- - - And thus I am at a loss as to what you are saying.

How did you arrive at such truths without the benefit of observation, experimentation and analysis ?

I have been doing all three most of my life, and some more too: however nothing that I say would qualify as "observation, experimentation and analysis" according to you because only your version of such counts as such.

And for the sake of this discussion, even if there were grains of truth in your postulations, the big questions remains; Who E Don EPP ?

Only most of mankind.

Mind you, this is the last thread and last quote I will respond to if I ever see that word "epp" again!

How does such knowledge advance human struggles in the end?

It adds context, meaning and direction to life.

As an example, It is important for many people to know that a single kind or selfless deed may be more important in their lives than acquiring all the possible material wealth in the world for instance. The more people think this way, the better the world will be. The less greed and injustice would ravage the world, don't you think?

The person who formulates an effective headache tablet is doing far more for humanity than one who labours for your fancy knowledge. This is my point.

Nobody says people should not create headache tablets. In fact the vast majority of problem solving scientists are religious people, so I don't see your point still. Nothing stops them from contributing to the world daily.

At this stage of our development, shouldn't we be tired of these AFTER-LIFE INSURANCE POLICIES, the promotions of which have created many contending and conflicting religions on Earth over the past thousands of years ?

It's not an insurance policy. In fact most people live as if they are determined to arrive at hell fire, if such a place existed.

Spirituality is simply connecting with the self and reaching an awareness of it and its spiritual environment. It promotes, and not negates, everyday positive and productive living.

Jayriginal! I see you there! Long time! How are you!

Reading through our brick-batting up there I wonder why I was so riled!

Lol. . . .time. . . .

raphieMontella:
@deepsight..
On Gods eternity...that gives an infinite amount of years to his existence prior to our ''universe''...our universe had a beginning..so why did god create us at the birth of our universe..?

The Spiritual world predates this universe and all physical planes indeed. Thus this should not arise.

Also..for our creativities to be in concrete relation with the ''Mind of Minds''...earth wouldnt be like a grain of sand on a beach..
What kinda creative designer does that?

Anything that you can conceive, this universe inclusive, is as a speck of sand before the grand whole. . . .

raphieMontella:
aiit..would ask on that thread

^^^ Its a really old thread, I doubt most of the contributors are still active on this forum.

@ Raphiemontella, I explored the co-relation between thought and reality in this old thread.
You might want to have a peep at the first two posts and others.

https://www.nairaland.com/467772/belief-reality

raphieMontella:
hmm..so this material plane is just a kind of illusion?

Well that is my take - but let's be careful here: for everything is indeed Mind, and projections of Mind. So what therefore is an illusion? We may see that there is nothing like an illusion actually, once we recognize that reality is indeed mind and projections of mind.

Now you have thoughts. You are capable of bringing your thoughts into reality. With sufficient evolution and development, you can project your thoughts. You can condense them, and your thoughts can proceed from you and translate into phenomena. In this same way you can influence thoughts and minds around you without lifting a finger. This is called thought projection.

Now, if you, a droplet of Mind, can do this, can you imagine what the Mind of Minds can do - that eternal and all encompassing Mind which upholds all reality?

It creates realities on a cosmic and eternal scale, just as we create our realities.

Thus, the word "illusion" is somewhat tricky to use - although in a sense that is the case. It is the projected illusion that is actually our reality, this world.

raphieMontella:
ahk,,
but if this ''spirit'' is eternal...where was one's pre-life?
And why is it that our ''I'' has been growing from birth and declines towards death..
Our ''I'' at a year old is different from our ''I'' at 20 years old

Great questions, let me proffer my thoughts - just my thoughts on these. Please these represent my own personal reflections and metaphysical view on the nature of reality and as such I lay no claim to these being absolute truth of any kind. It's my own take, after years of reflection, just my own view.

but if this ''spirit'' is eternal...where was one's pre-life?

First - All things are Mind. And projections of Mind.

God ITSELF is mind. It is the infinite Minds of minds which is all existential reality.
Mind is everything, and all that happens in existence are radiations or thoughts of mind. Projections of Mind.

God is the Mind of Minds and souls are droplets of this eternal Mind, seeds or thoughts of this Eternal Mind, that proceed outward into realms of space and time.

As they do so, they evolve in their experiencing, and through phases, experience self consciousness.

The spirit-seed rests from eternity within the hand of the Eternal God. And when I say "hand" here, I mean within God. It proceeds outward into the realms of time and space as a thought from God.

This world is but a material projection of the Mind of minds where we, the droplets of that Mind, pass through in our evolution as thoughts of that mind. Minute projections of that Mind.

This is why you, as a droplet of that Mind, will experience your self awareness differently at every stage of your evolution into self awareness.

As you evolve infinitely, you will grow, from this plane into infinite planes, expanding yourself as a child of the Mind of Minds, and bringing forth droplets of mind which will grow as you did.

In this way, the Mind of Minds is eternally experiencing and eternally expanding itself in the reality that it is, itself.

raphieMontella:
Hmm..like hindu and buddhist afterlife version..
reincarnation? For the lower souls? Or a one time stuff?

I don't think there can be anything such as "one time" when once we consider the spectre of eternity. Time is not something that can stop be it a continuum or a stagnant whole in which reality rests. Therefore in either direction one must look towards an infinity of lives on infinite planes.

raphieMontella:
and what happens after death?
Judgement?

The immaterial being, having become divested of its physical cloak will adjust itself to the region of ethereal or spiritual reality which is homogeneous to its nature. In other words it will rise or sink to the plane which is in alignment with its own weight and consistency.

Noble souls are generally light and unencumbered, and as such rise to light planes, whilst dark souls are generally heavy and encumbered and hence sink to dark and encumbered planes.

raphieMontella:
@deepsight
but ehm..this special ''self awareness'' is not limited to humans...
Does it mean all ''self aware'' beings have this ''spiritual''?

They all have the immaterial part. For all creatures, all that you see on Earth is only a cloak. Like a dress. It is cast aside at death.

plaetton:
I have elaborated before on how self awareness and self cognisance are functions of the brain, mirror neurons to be precise.

If the inner me is me, then there is no inner me, just ME,..in the same way that your pet dog is just your pet dog.
There is no inner dog in it.

Perhaps you misunderstand. I refer to the difference between the body and the spirit. The immaterial being. The body dies, and will rot like the mere matter it is. The refined being remains in existence. The same goes for your dog by the way.

The body is a vehicle. It is not you any more than the clothes you wear are you. You will drop it at death. That's you.
Your dog will do the same thing.

Repeat post...

^^^ I said self aware and self cognizant.

Inner being is not a different entity. It is you.

plaetton:
All sounds honky dory, wordy sire.
Howfore might you investigate, know your supposed inner being, considering , as thou has proudly propounded afore, that spiritual things are nigh immeasurable nor observable with any tools known ?

Oh no, I have not propounded any such thing. On the contrary, I have said right here on this thread what I have always said, that the Spirit is self evident, that God is self evident and that these things are obvious in every passing moment in everything around us.

The inner being, for itself, is conscious of it self.

You only need to be self aware and self cognisant. Try also, to hear your inner voice, to clear the noise of the world in your head and align with your inner intuition and direction, you will find your way. You do not require a laboratory.

plaetton:
Thank you very much.
Your position dovetails with where I am going with my query, and what my esteemed wordy friend, Deepsight, is woefully failing to appreciate.

Is scientific rationalism not the best, the tested and proven way of inquiring into the true nature and substance of our being ?

I would rather deal with the scientific investigation into my psyche, my cognitive awareness and functionings than to waste previous time conjuring fancy words to hide my confusion in the sea of spiritual mumbo jumbos.

Unfortunately science still deals largely with the material, the physical. I am a lover of science, however I know that Spirit transcends the material science of the physical plane.

I think we have discussed the issue from the point of view of consciousness.

I have told you before that that the brain is a mere tool for the spiritual being, and this is a fact. You there fore cannot seek to understand your inner being by starting from the brain. That is absurd. You will proceed from the inner being and that being will process it's thoughts and workings on this physical plane through the tool that is the brain and the body.

Do not put the cart before the horse.

plaetton:
Exactly.

Just like my devotion to the Toothfairy, aside from putting $3.75 under my pillow, has not greatly benefited humankind in any measurable way.

Your devotion to the tooth fairy is already notorious on this forum and has oft led one to feel a sense of futility in our discussions. . .

So yes, your tooth fairy is doing very well sire.

ifenes:
Religion has destroyed spirituality. Spirituality is bigger than religion, gods etc. The mistake people make is to think it is about worshiping or having a relationship with an unknown deity. But the truth is that Spirituality is all about you

Spirituality is an awareness of ones self and knowing that you can expand yourself , understand how your mindset can give you a better experience in life.

Most critics are sacred of the word " Sprituality" but are okay with talking about the human Psych, but both happen to be the same. Both work on he mind, both are connected to creativity, emotional maturity, having a positive attitude to life etc. To me I see no difference. The name is only the cause of concern.

Thank you very much.

Neo Cortex, the above is the answer to your question on how being spiritual is beneficial to any person.

Now, I will add the following. In the first place, your question is odd. For it pre supposes that the spirit is different from the person. This is not the case. You are Spirit, period. There fore you cannot ask that question in the first place. It is like asking how being the being that you are benefits that being. It is an incongruous question.

Secondly, asking for proof of the spirit is like asking for proof of your own voice, your own self.

All the proof rests in your very existence and is evinced in everything about you every passing moment. All you have to do is stop for a moment and behold your own existence.

Be still. . . . .

MizMyColi:
@Deepsight

Please are you a grail message adherent?

No I am not, although I have read the Message, and I still read it from it to time. I have also attended their lectures. It's a really deep and great work, which unfortunately is regarded by many as the work of some deviant sect or cult. This is not so.

Nevertheless, I do not know that all that is written in it is true, though most therein is clearly spiritually commonsensical.

JackBizzle:


Just make your point. No need for disgusting pictures

Haha. I foresaw this reaction. Really funny, though.

However I did not post the picture for fun.

My point rests in the picture.

Mr. Hahn,

You should study this image and see if the point strikes you. If it doesn't perhaps later.

hahn:
This statement doesn't deserve a reasonable response.

Oh? Beacause the man you see in the mirror is not a "being" but just a "body?"

Have you really reflected carefully on this matter?

Now let me ask you to do something. Have you ever taken a really really deep and close look at the next human being?

Try it again. A really really deep look at anyone around you. All about them, head to feet, front, back and sides. Look very very carefully around the temples and the eyes take a few moments and look closely.

You are obviously missing something. Something glaring.

If you are convinced that there is some other life after this without any proof, then you are not even thinking for yourself.

Ciao

Oh dear, another one of the gang who insist there is no water on Earth whilst they sit in the middle of the ocean itself. And of course, demand that others should show the proof of the existence of water.

Comical, if it were not so sad.

hahn:
This statement doesn't deserve a reasonable response.

Oh? Beacause the man you see in the mirror is not a "being" but just a "body?"

Have you really reflected carefully on this matter?

Now let me ask you to do something. Have you ever taken a really really deep and close look at the next human being?

Try it again. A really really deep look at anyone around you. All about them, head to feet, front, back and sides. Look very very carefully around the temples and the eyes take a few moments and look closely.

You are obviously missing something. Something glaring.

If you are convinced that there is some other life after this without any proof, then you are not even thinking for yourself.

Ciao

Oh dear, another one of the gang who insist there is no water on Earth whilst they sit in the middle of the ocean itself. And of course, demand that others should show the proof of the existence of water.

Comical, if it were not so sad.

plaetton:
This is an award winner.

Bravo, my friend, bravo.

Only in your blinkered eyes and obsessive mind, my friend: for what he wrote is nothing but gibberish: gibberish in that it contains ridiculous assumptions - there is nothing with regard to believing in and seeking spirituality which suggests that one should not live every day to the fullest and seek out the best of the present life: if anything, a spiritual point of view will encourage one to do this fervently.

hahn:
Do you realize that "our real spiritual existence" is subjective?

Of course it is.

You believe in one version of the postulation of an afterlife while there are more than 4,200 other versions.

I don't know who told you this. I certainly do not believe this nor have I ever postulated this. I most certainly do not believe in one version of the afterlife.

Thus, this is an example of you making assumptions. That's quite sad.

Now, if you could make such a cosmic leap of an assumption on this small matter, how can I take your point of views seriously?

Why is yours any more real than the others?

I do not believe that it is. I have never argued so: if anything I have argued the reverse: I have spoken about infinite realities and infinite planes.

And why should we indulge in such wishful thinking despite lack of evidence of it's existence?

Only an unthinking man makes such a statement as this. I don't know how you are able to wake up in the morning and have a look in the mirror and convince yourself your are simply a walking corpse, an edible piece flesh and nothing more. If this is your perception of your being, you are a most unawakened one, my friend. You have yet to come to recognition of any sort.

This life is the only thing that is guaranteed. Here and now. It would be a more profitable venture if we focused on making the best of what we have now in this present time because this is the only thing that is guaranteed. Don't you think?

This is nonsense. I am tired of your puerile assumptions already - who says acknowledging spirituality means one should waste the present time or not use each day to its fullest and make the best of every passing moment? ? ? ?

You think in black and white.

plaetton:
I beg to disagree sir.

India, for example, arguably the headquarters of spiritual mumbo jumbos, was a poor , pathetic nation overflowing with stark ignorance and mind-numbing poverty until the modern era, when they embraced practical Western education and science.
All the so-called spiritual magic of India didn't advance the people of India in any notable positive way for many millennia. One century of scientific rationalism did.

In Africa today, spiritual mumbo jumbos occupy sooooo much, a greatly disproportionate part of the mind, that there is hardly Any room for scientific rationalism, scientific curiosity.

Most education of the West which led to inquiry and further thinking and thus invention and development sprang in most cases from religious institutions, and as such I do not get your point.

The fact that much of the West has moved past religious attachment does not in any way indicate that religious history and the institutions that sprang therefrom have not played a significant part in western statehood, empire, institutional development and even scientific inquiry, not to speak of the refinement of the arts.

The religious beliefs of the Japanese and Chinese did nothing to retard their development. Neither that of ancients such as the Egyptians, Babylonians, Aztecs and many others. And even if you choose to brush ancient instances aside as I see you already attempting above (which you can't), the overwhelmingly religious tendency of most of modern America has done nothing to stop them being the scientific leader of the modern world.

I think you need to do two things:

1. Stop conflating religion with spirituality

2. Focus your criticism on hypocritical, blind and ignorant religion or spirituality and not spirituality for itself.

plaetton:
Yes. A very valid question.

Since the dawn of human life, and up to this day, there has been so much Ado about spirituality.

In fact, spiritual mumbo jumbos occupy a grossly disproportionate part of the African mind in this 21st century.
Why?

Looking back at the last 6,000 yrs recorded human history, what has the pursuit of " the spiritual" ever benefited humankind?

Thousands of so-called prophets, wise men, enlightened souls, gurus, sons , daughters, nephews and nieces of god have come and gone, and in most cases, left their environments worse than they met them.

Aside from hurling humankind from one dark pit right into another, in what ways have the pursuit of the " spiritual" positively advanced the human trek?

C:C Deepsight.

What has happened to you? ? ?

It appears you have conflated spirituality with religion. . . .

You know very well that these two things are different.

If not for the pursuit of the spiritual, what purpose and inner meaning can a human being put to life?
Would man not simply exist as a hobbesian beast?

When you look at a human being, what do you see?

When you look at yourself, what do you see?

A meaningless physical agglomeration of darting physical micro-particles which somehow comes together as one, not just to feed itself in physical terms but to even project ideas to change the world. Is this the thing that you believe is a mere beast, nothing more than an intelligent and advanced beast?

Regardless advancement, do you not see a clear - and - improbably too wide gap between the faculties of man and those of other creatures?

How often have you sat before and contemplated the dead body of a close friend or relative? If you have done this, you would understand that there is absolutely nothing to the physical life save the pursuit of, and refinement of our real spiritual existence outside this vehicle called a body.

plaetton:
Like cell phones operating in a certain unique frequency range, our individual perceptions differ by inconsequential amounts , because we all operate in the same frequency range.

No, I do not agree that the differences in individual perception are only slight or inconsequential! In some small matters such as color perception it may be so, but in the matter of perception of reality itself, the differences are often gargantuan!

Now imagine other species that have more or less sensory capabilities than we have.
Is their reality different , or, are their realities same as ours , irrespective of their perceptions?

Their realities are very different indeed.
Would you advise them to wake up from their "delusion" and embrace "our" "reality"?

plaetton:
In other words, a thought is simply unique configuration of brain waves. The brain waves constitute the thoughts.

Therefore, if we can identify, observe, classify, and simulate brain waves, then we are quantifying what you call thoughts.

The brain is not a being of itself able to originate thoughts for its own particular purposes. Sometimes people argue as though the brain were a creature all itself and the rest of the body is only its encasement.

The Brain is a tool, through which the being itself - the actual spiritual human being processes its thoughts and actions within the physical plane.

Therefore you should understand that observing brain activity is similar to observing the inner working of a computer, whereas the thoughts being delivered through it arise from the human being working that computer. Thus one does not observe the thoughts of the human being itself by observing the electrical activity on the computer alone. Even in the case of the written word, the thought in the mind of the human may differ from what is written. The intention may be to deceive or divert. That is how different thought can be from mere electro-chemical activity.

The truth remains that you cannot observe any thought by observing brain activity. You cannot see the thought, or know its form or its meaning. Electrical activity can refer to anything - I am sure you know this - nothing tells you what the thought is, or even if it is a thought at all.

Secondly, you yourself stated that until the science is developed to observe something, then scientifically, it is not real. Now as you know very well that no such science exists currently to see human thoughts as they are - then if you must be consistent with your own argument, you must accede that human thoughts are not to be deemed real as per your criterion. . . . .

A few quotes of yours from that thread just to hammer home the point:

plaetton:
My point in all this is that mind does not have any absolute truths of it's own except that which it has been conditioned to see.
Indeed, If the mind was naturally or divinely imbued with absolute truth, then all minds should be able to have the same interpretations of one image, one dream, one epiphany.
We know that it has never been so.
Every mind interprets one visual image, such as yours above, in many different ways.
Thus, everyone has his own inner truth.

https://www.nairaland.com/1493701/philosophy-truth-through-pictorial-arguments#19113797

I don't know how it is possible for you to speak the above and yet state that some people are embracing reality while others are embracing delusion. Did you not say just in the above quote that "everyone has his own inner truth?"

To further show how contradictory your position is, you concluded that post saying:

Therefore, once again, subjective truth , no matter how elegant or sublime, whether it's about god, or whatever it may be, is simply unreliable in the real world.

In short, after saying that the mind can only see what it is conditioned to see, and that everyone thus has his own inner truth, you then say that all of that is "unreliable in the real world". I wonder where you got that "real world" from considering that everyone is actually trapped in his own perceptive world according to you.

This again shows that you are in no position to speak about reality versus delusion.