₦airaland Forum

raphieMontella:
on the cmb...u err there..cmb was predicted as smtin that wud be a product of big bang like origin of the universe before it was found...
Asking it is a lot like asking why there is smoke when u burn paper...(i hope u can relate)

No, sorry, I cannot relate - I would be happy if you would elucidate - with particular reference to the specific context of the more primordial question - "why something instead of nothing?"

and also u asking the atheist to explain science bt u said atheism is not science...

No again - I have not asked the atheist to explain science - I have invited the atheist to see that once he refers to any element; then that is a "something". The question should then properly fall on the man who denies the existence of a creative element to show how that "something" arose - provided he cannot show that it logically is a self existent thing.

You all have misconceptions abt atheism(no offence)

Atheism represents a state of perverse reasoning conditioned mostly by a lack of right-thinking education and a lack of sober thought.

Joshuabase:
I know your type - the pseudo intellectual theist who thinks he's the "smart" one because he's come to a false logical conclusion that something can't come from nothing. I used to be you - honestly I have no intention of replying the epistle you posted. Perhaps I will when you have a B.tech in physics.

Lol. Escapist. No answer, that's why. You are a non starter.

Can you tell me how something comes from nothing? Virtual particles in a quantum vaccum? What else? Go on - discuss the physics of it.
You don't know anything bro.

Joshuabase:
Theists

We believe that the universe was created by an invisible entity who in turn didn't have a creator because he created himself

Unless you are attempting to mock yourself and no one else, this is a ridiculous non-starter. No theist anywhere asserts that the creator created Itself. It has rather been the contention of most Theistic schools of thought that the Creator is eternal and did not have a beginning. This means that the Creator is a self existent element. It is natural and logical to understand that certain things necessarily self exist and require no creation and no beginning. Infinite or Eternal Time is one example, just as Infinite and Eternal Space is another. Neither can be said to have a beginning or an end and yet it is not possible to deny the necessary self-existence of either.

We may discuss these in detail if you want, but you should also understand that a self existent thing is also logically and of necessity an intangible thing, and an intangible thing is also invisible, and this is why most Theistic thought renders God invisible.

Basic logic also gives us to know that that which caused the physical realm to exist cannot itself be physical and therefore we can understand that this creative element which we call God, is also Transcendental.

we have no concrete physical proof that the universe was in fact "created" talk more of the existence of the invisible entity that created it.

I can only presume that you do not have a physical body and you do not live in this world.

For if you have a physical body, it must be that you have never investigated its workings, or perhaps have never learnt anything of its workings.

And for if you live in this world I would strongly doubt that you have ever paid any attention to your environment at all.

If you have ever, you would not make such a starkly ignorant and even perverse comment as this.

Science

Why are you contrasting Theism and Science might I ask? Science is not the opposite of Theism - Atheism is. And there are a great many Theistic Scientists, just as there are a great many Atheists who know nothing of science and do not even care for it.

Theism and Science are not opposites, neither are they mutually exclusive.

In fact, it is probably great testament to your bombastically vacant comments, that you do not allude your mind to the fact that the big b.ang theory which you so happily cuddle in your comments below, was propounded by a Catholic Priest!

Long remains your journey, o presumptuous son.

The universe created itself(technically).

This ranks as one of the daftest things I have ever had the misfortune to read in my entire life. Can you spot why?

The quantum field fluctuations are a fundamental property of the universe and through peaks in each individual fields a singularity was formed which in turn expanded due to cosmic inflation - which gave rise to 99.98% of the matter We see in the universe today. There's mountains of evidence that supports this theory such as the observed cosmic inflation, the cosmic microwave background radiation, gravitational red-shifting of light coming from receding stars etc.

Will you just stop there? Such a quantum field just happened to exist by itself, of itself and absent cause or trigger? How so, tell me Einstein, I am all ears.

Here is the question - why something instead of nothing.

Can you co-relate this question to that which you have written, spot its relevance and address it from a primordial existential point of view?

I have a question for Theists, how do you sleep at night knowing that your beliefs entails denying reality?

How do you sleep at night knowing that you pride yourself on base, unschooled and ill-considered absurdities ? ? ?

You know, a little learning is indeed a terrible thing.

How do you explain the existence of the cosmic microwave background radiation to yourselves?

Does it not occur to you that this question is more adequately directed to the Atheist than to the Theist?

DeSepiero:
Please go ahead and make your point DeepSight.

I can't really. The specific point I was trying to make will involve a philosophical take on Time, Space and Mind. Referring me to the dictionary cannot help that: as you know even the Dictionary will have multiple definitions of each word and of course multiple uses depending on the context or conversation. Thus only a personal philosophical take on the meaning of these words (at an existential level) would help me proceed in what I wanted to say. Its anyhow stuff I have discussed in detail in ancient threads of mine and those of others on this forum.

It doesn't really matter anyhow; everything in existence and every passing heartbeat bespeaks the ineluctable conclusion of the existence of God.

DeSepiero:
Let me quickly say that my perceptions don't differ from their dictionary meaning Sir.

Very well. In that case, that's all. Thank you.

DeSepiero:
I'd answer question 1 & 5. The rest can be checked up in an English dictionary.

1. The word " God " in Theist-atheist discussions often connotes a "a supreme being, and creator of the universe".

2. I am not a strict materialist.

Thank you for these, much appreciated.
However as regards the rest, perhaps I should be more clear, I inquire of your own understanding of these things with specific regard to same Theistic vs Atheistic discourses. I inquire because I believe those precepts Have cardinal bearing on the discussion. Dictionary definitions will thus not suffice in this context.

Will you oblige sire?

DeSepiero:
Go on

1. When the word "God" is used in a Theistic vs Atheistic discussion - what do you think that word means or connotes? What springs to mind as what is being discussed in such discussions as per the word "God"?

2. What is Time?

3. What is space?

4. What is a mind?

5. Are you a strict materialist? i.e: Do you believe that only physical things exist and that all things are physical?

These should do for now, much appreciated.

DeSepiero:
Theism = I know, its God. = Close-mindedness

May I ask you a few questions Sire? Just to understand you better.

Pr0ton:
If a friend tells you a tree is right in front of your door and you go out to check it out and can't find one, then you can reasonably say there is no tree in front of your door.

Yes indeed - although I will allow that perhaps it is either not the sort of tree I expected to see, or it is not a tree I can see at all.

If he says the tree is invincible or can't be perceived by any of your sense organs you are not wrong to call him stupid and feel right about your judgement. This is the stand of atheists.

Now here is the problem. You said "can not be perceived by any of your sense organs" -

Let me ask you a question. Do human beings only perceive things through their defined sensory organs?

In this instance, there indeed is a Tree - This Tree is GOD.

However GOD is an un-embodied, eternal, self existent and complete mind - It is the Mind that is the wellspring of all realities.

To expect to be able to perceive such a thing with your sensory organs is more bizzare than a speck of sand expecting to be able to perceive all the sand in the universes or a drop of water expecting to perceive the entirely of the ocean. Worse than these actually, because God, as I have described IT - is not of the same species in terms of planes as you are and what you have therefore asked will amount to asking the universes to give you a personal handshake, perhaps with a plaque at a personal ceremony for you - before you recognize that God exists.

My friend - the existence of God is an OBVIOUS AND SELF EVIDENT FACT.

Aside that the evidence rests everywhere in legion forms - any sentient being need only observe its own reality for a heartbeat to cognize God. If anything, it is the very perverted reasoning of the reverse position that ought to be condemned as being intrinsically dim - and even illogical and counter-intuitive: the view that there is either no God - and even the agnostic (but more balanced view) that one cannot know - are both most self deceptive - Because:

- - - - > One may not know all the colors of God - but the existence of that permanent element is philosophically, logically, scientifically and intuitively beyond cavil.
It cannot be reasonably disputed by anything that calls itself a human being.

PS: The correct word highlighted in red up there in your post should be "invisible" - something one cannot see - and not "invincible" - something one cannot defeat/ overcome: although it is touche for us to note that this also applies to God.

Dotwillis1:
[i]

Tell us why you won't be in church today if you didn't fall into any of the categories

*

Perhaps because one is not brain-washed and has a sense of history and therefore understands the ridiculousness of worshiping a Jewish Rabbi as God?

Perhaps because one sees the commercial enterprise that most churches have become?

Perhaps because one has an expanded worldview which does not defer to imported religious myths?

Perhaps because one has a personal connection with the creator that requires no validation from hypocritical institutions?

Perhaps because one understands that there are different worldviews in the world? Different religious thoughts too?

Perhaps because one is an African Traditionalist and unabashed about it?

Perhaps because one has read the Bible better than most Christians and understands the pitiful inaccuracies it may contain - just as do other religious books?

Now tell me - why did you not include any of these possible reasons in your write up?

Who told you about Jesus?

A white man who came bearing a doctored script called the Bible and bearing gunfire in his other hand to subjugate you?

What became of your ancestors?

Were they going to Church?

You are a shameful pretense for an inquirer.

Richirich713:
The "is" in the statement "Jesus is God", is an "is of predication" not identity. In other words saying Jesus is God, means he is divine.

. . . . . . And. . . . per George Orwell, in Animal Farm -

"A birds wings, comrades, are instruments of propulsion and not of manipulation. . . . they therefore qualify as legs"

Yes! Four legs good, two legs bad!

Niflheim:
@Cloudgoddess,

Good day, sorry I have not been able to comment on this your fantastic topic.

1.A "loving father" would never have created flesh eating bacteria.

Are you vegetarian? Answer this question honestly please.

2.The bible was not even aware of the fact that bacteria exişted(it does not state the day that bacteria was created)

It also does not state the day that you were born, no?

By the way - is the Bibe an "aware" thing? Your use of language is odd.

3.The bible is not aware of the fact that bacteria would have also survived the flood(Noah's armpits and underwear).

Just as it is not "aware" that Fish would also have survived the Flood?

4.How can god say, "Be fruitful and multiply", only for him to create bacteria that will prevent you from being fruitful and multiplying(sexually transmitted diseases).

Same bacteria that ensure that very fruitfulness and multiplication and still keep that very population in check for balance, no?

Hey, moderators. . . . . . I think I'm ready for another ban! You know what I wish to say to this. . . . . well . . . . "person".

Elohim1:
What About The Concept Of Heaven And Hell

A higher, lighter and improved state of being post death is what it is, but what people refer to and oft imagine is a specific spiritual place called heaven.

A lower, darker and worsened state of being post death is what it is, but what people refer to and oft imagine is a specific spiritual place called hell.

Good & Bad??

Positive thoughts words or deeds which lighten and improve the condition of the being and indeed all creation.

Negative thoughts words or deeds which darken and worsen the condition of the being and indeed all creation.

Elohim1:
Are U Trying To Say We Are Some kind Of God

Yes.

It is the inescapable truth.

Bros J sef talk am. Na man wey sabi be that my brother.

Just like the Buddha.

Ranchhoddas:
Would it be out of place to demand proof of this?

That would be like you demanding proof of your own existence.

If you cannot look at your torso, your abdomen, your arms and legs and even your head, and recognize it as mere meat - and edible one at that, I cannot really offer you further proof.

The proof really rests for you to recognize yourself for what you are - nobody can do this for you - it is self cognition. At all events it happens naturally as a human's consciousness of its own being and spirit grow and evolve. AS you approach GOD-Consciousness - the state of being where you have become a fully conscious mind which is a droptlet or a small orb of the infinite mind which is called GOD - you will begin to see clearly that you are not your body. Not at all.

You will have out of body experiences and you will clearly understand how vastly detached a being you are from the physical.

HardMirror:
You made no sense mr man.
So it is just the natural order, God in his wisdom created a balance right? Those bacteria are only doing what comes natural.
Good!
So can you tell me why christians await a heaven/new earth were there would be no more diseases and deaths. Where lions and lambs will play with each other. Yet looking at the lion, you will see that is perfectly evolved to kill and feed on flesh. Same with viruses and bacteria that have detrimental effects on their hosts.

Why have a split serpent tongue? on one hand you say god designed everything good, on the other you say god would correct everything in the new earth.

All I see are excuses for god.

I am not a Christian so please direct your question here to Christians.

This a great write up with most welcome perspectives.
A few comments though.

cloudgoddess:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

I would first like to make it clear that I have no intentions to argue semantics with anyone. I am well aware that the word "spiritual" is highly associated with religion and superstition (the Wiki article discusses this as well), but words can have multiple definitions.

The spirituality I'm discussing deals with our experience & existence as human beings -- our emotions & our relationship to them, our relationship with other humans, our place in the universe, self-concept and outer perspective, the meanings we attribute to things, subjects like love and compassion and joy, healing from past hurts, and feeling connected to something greater than the individual self. As you can probably tell, there is overlap with the religious definition, and there are reasons for this.

Very well said.

Religion was one of man's earliest attempts to understand not just our outer world, but this inner human experience as well. Unfortunately, most organized religions got a lot of things wrong. But this should be expected, because they were thought up during a time when we lacked much of the information we have now, but still had all of the cognitive biases, ego-driven motives, and subconscious fears that are a part of our evolutionary history -- religious books like the bible & Qu'ran are evidence of this.

True to some extent, but beware that both Abrahamic texts (as well as many other ancient religious texts) do contain a great many pearls of truth and wisdom - pearls which are far deeper than the surface reader might ever suspect in an entire lifetime - and this remains true notwithstanding that both books do contain mistranslations, misconceptions, deliberate alterations, addittions and subtractions and also some outright falsehoods - not to speak of barbarisms.

Nonetheless for the nuanced reader, they are and remain priceless works.

Humanity has progressed in our knowledge and understanding.

In some ways yes, but in many ways (Spirituality inclusive) we have regressed terribly.

An atheist is someone who does not believe in the literal existence of gods. Someone who simply recognizes that Odin, Zeus, Yahweh, Allah and the rest, are fictional characters that were formulated by human beings and passed on through generations.

This is a wrong and very misleading definition of atheism.
It is very insufficient to refer to gods such as Zeus, Allah, Yahweh, etc in defining atheism. Atheism is not just the rejection of the existence of these gods but the rejection of the existence of GOD, capital and period - and in this sense I mean a Creator of this reality, however one may define a creative element as GOD is understood in general terms to be.

It is very lazy to base one's atheism on the falsifiable attributes of any specific religious god and I will tell you why. The existence or non existence of GOD is a deep theological, philosophical and logical question which far transcends any religion or culture and has been discussed as a matter for extensive philosophical understanding for generations. It is a logical, philosophical and even scientific question which has and continues to concern eminent scholars and thinkers.

I have often said that there are various types of atheists. The Anti-Religionist Atheist is not really a pure atheist. He or she is atheist only on account of the falsehoods and contradictions in religion. This, as I said, is lazy. A pure atheist does not believe in the existence of any creator for reasons extending to the philosophy and logic of the matter and not merely because he finds old fables incongruous.

As more and more evidence emerges, it appears that we are not in any permanent way separate from the rest of nature. On the contrary, we are interconnected expressions of this same universe we gaze at in awe and wonder. We came from the same stardust that formed the sun and we're still exchanging energy with it today. The molecules that make our bodies up are being recycled with other matter on earth all the time. Each of us were born from the interaction of two beings, who were each born from two beings slightly further back in time, on and on till the first sexually reproducing organisms and beyond.

Fair enough but beware that we do not come from any stardust - only our bodies do. We are not our bodies. But yes, the inter-connectivity you mention is very much there.

And as these connected beings/expressions, capable of traits like compassion and empathy, we actually have the power to produce more happiness and growth for other human beings as well as ourselves. Some ways we are able to do this are through accepting, inspiring & being generous (one form of generosity is openly sharing our knowledge and ideas).

Very well said.

We can each develop our abilities to embody and express the most loving parts of our nature, while taming our more survival-driven and reactive emotions & thinking patterns. Neuroplasticity, our brains' potential to rewire itself, allows us to evolve our own brains towards more kindness, self-acceptance, presence, creativity, and endless more possibilities (one tool for doing this is mindfulness meditation, which I will probably go into more detail on later).

True, but focus more on the Spirit being the centre for such rewiring - not the brain - for the brain is a mere tool employed by the being. The brain is meat remember - and yes it does make a very tasty dish for some.

The universe, including our planet and all the beings within it, is constantly evolving -- expressing itself in new ways. Biological evolution is just one expression of this. The evolution of galaxies and celestial bodies are another. The evolution of human societies, technology, etc. is yet another. The evolution of our collective thoughts and behaviors is another. We can all help progress towards a more compassionate and enlightened world, starting with personal change.

I agree.

To sum up, we aren't separate from this universe.

True to some extent, but beware that we are indeed separate from the material universe.

We are "star stuff" as the late astrophysicist Carl Sagan put it, experiencing a consciousness gift.

We are more than that. Even goats are more than that, I tell you.

We are free to do what we want with this gift, but surely it would be best spent aiding the evolution of humanity, this collection of conscious beings possessing incredible potential, towards more peace, creativity, innovation, love, all that good stuff that makes us light up inside. And all of that starts within ourselves.
~~~

Very well concluded.

PS - I would like to encourage more threads like this from you rather than threads on why God created bacteria.
Well done.

frank317:
In other words, everything is the creator's grand plan right? Natural disasters, diseases, pain, suffering, sun.... Everything is the creator's grand plan?

Yes Sir. All of these things are necessary in the world of matter to ensure that the living spirit learns the conscious art of survival, and reaches a full self conscious and independent awareness which will be indispensable to its growth and maturity from the time when it drops it's material body and steps into its full spiritual existence.

The physical body is like an egg in which the being it carries matures, the physical world is like a womb in which this egg is being carried, and the living being bursts out of this egg and out of this womb when the egg matures and /or breaks down. This is the necessary event called death, but it really, is another birth.

frank317:
Old lady . What are you dodging from? What has knowing what causes tsunami got to do with the fact that it actually occurs? What has having a peaceful water in my cup or stomach got to do with the fact that tsunami is a reality?

Did you God not know it will happen when he created water? Or did it take him unawares as usual? Or did he program the 'causes' into the water once man sinned? Choose one.

The strike of a meteor theoretically led to the extinction of Dinosaurs. If that didnt happen, you would not be here today. If all creatures that ever existed did not die as per the cycle of life - regardless the method of death - life on this planet would not even be possible at all. Thus even natural disasters have a key role to play in renewing ecosystems.

If you don't understand this, you will not understand anything.

Hypocrisy stinks.

cloudgoddess:
The rodents did not create or cause Yersinia Pestis to exist. They were simply carriers of an organism that already existed. Exposure to those rodents would not have not lead to the death of 200 million people if Yersinia Pestis itself did not exist.

Why do Yersinia Pestis and other pathogenic bacteria exist in the first place? That's the question here. The measures humans have taken to avoid dying from them are all after the fact.

Also as a side note, the bible doesn't even warn against pathogenic bacteria at all. It doesn't tell us to wash our hands to avoid getting sick, or to avoid potential carriers of disease causing microbes (even in the animals we eat). All of that was figured out by human beings through their own hard work (not prayer, even after millions of those Europeans prayed for a cure).

Why do you brush your teeth?
(I hope you do).

nduchucks:
If anyone is truly interested in the answer to this question, please provide your definition of god, and I will provide a quick answer to the OP's question based on that.

The Ultimate, Eternal, Self existing First cause of all other existence. Carry on.

cloudgoddess:
The Black Death occured hundreds of years prior to any modernization.

Hmm. And I presume that people living in those times had no unhealthy or unsanitary practices.

cloudgoddess:
This even happens in innocent children.

Who told you that children are innocent and where did you get this assumption from? ? ? ?
In fact, can you kindly explain what it means to be innocent and what makes a person innocent or guilty, of what and why? ? ? ?

cloudgoddess:
But cancer existed in dinosaurs...
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/oct/23/dinosaurs.science

Do you think that animals do not do wrong (or unhealthy) things?

And it occurs in children who have never smoked (Childhood Leukemia)...

Children come from the blood, sperm and eggs of their parents do they not?
If that blood has been corrupted how do you expect that the corruption will not be transmitted?
And if it is transmitted why blame the creator for this?

Commonsense is not common - I smoke - and the day that I have lung cancer (heaven forbid, for I must quit) - I will not attribute it to God - I will attribute it to myself.

I often tell people a little parable of a father who advises his son not to jump up for if he does so, he will surely fall down via the law of gravity. The son disobeys, jumps up. Now freeze the moment. The son is sorry he has disobeyed his father. He says to the father - Father, I am sorry I disobeyed you. That's okay son, I forgive you.

Now tell me - Is this son still going to fall down or not?

I hope you get the point.

ireneony:
nice one ...
She should have ask.
"Why did God created me"

This is a very well centred question.
For the OP, in her bombastic ignorance, does not realize that she is also bacteria of another sort to other living creatures.

The OP probably eats the corpses of other living things to survive daily, and sees no parasitic behavior in this, but callously, shortsightedly and and selfishly sees the bacteria that protect an entire ecosystem as evidence of the absence of God's Love.

This sort of OP will not understand the role of ants and other insects on the entire ecosystem, this sort of OP will not understand the role of lions in checking the population of cattle, this sort of OP can never, NEVER - EVER - understand the role of natural disasters in pruning that which needs to be pruned. This sort of OP cannot understand the cycle of life.

OP Please read this link

https://www.nairaland.com/429593/physcical-bodies-dwelling-spiritual-heavens