₦airaland Forum

Why am i not on the list ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Am i not heaven bound? ? ?

Any such list without my name is null and void.

@ OP: Brilliant. Ignore the rabble rousers. As one who pays careful attention to dreams, i find this truly useful.

I doubt i can comply with the no-alcohol tip though. I need my Guiness Stout.

Much has been said and written over the centuries concerning the power of faith. By “faith”, I must state at the outset that I mean this in both the holistic sense and the specific sense in terms of the religious and spiritual application of the word "faith."

I was reflecting a few days ago and I thought to dwell a little on the connections, if any, between belief and reality.

Jesus of Nazareth, that famous and unequalled teacher of truth once conveyed the teaching that if a man’s belief be sufficient, there is little that he could not do. He famously asked his disciples to walk on water through faith: and urged them to be capable of casting mountains into the sea through faith.

Is there a level of faith – an absolute conviction – which when held – transposes directly into reality? I suspect that there is. The Nazarene was onto something for sure.

Why are some people able to bend metal spoons by staring intently at them? Certainly there are many charlatans about: but the powers of some psychics are simply undeniable.

Now it seems to me that thoughts carry certain powers. The more intense a thought, the greater its magnetic strength and the more compelling its powers. I feel that in this way, a thought which is held in absolute and utterly unwavering conviction, will transpose into reality.

Now I am not out to convey belief in some sort of imaginary arrogation of powers, which seems to be the tendency of a certain group of people, but it seems clear to me that –

1. Thoughts do carry magnetic and other powers

2. The strength/ intensity of a thought may be related to its possible manifestation as reality

Now at this stage it strikes one that absolute and perfect conviction – the truest certainty that comes from full and total knowledge and perhaps omnipotence – is not possible for any human being. In other words, humans are not able to achieve a perfect thought: a state of absolute and unhindered certainty and belief. Accordingly it follows that humans would have a very limited capacity to transpose their thoughts and beliefs directly into reality merely by thinking/ believing such. Nevertheless there is reason to believe that with deep conviction and ethereal meditation, a human being may create realities out of his thoughts.

Something may therefore be said for the value of faith – even in a religious or spiritual context. A sound and firm degree of faith would doubtless naturally attract that which it seeks to itself.

Now I mentioned earlier that perfect certainty is probably impossible to humans. This would only be possible to a being that is an absolute: such as God.

In this it immediately becomes clear that there is a “mental” relationship between the absoluteness of God and God’s creation.

For the simple fact that God is an absolute being, all that God thinks will irrevocably become reality. This defines the nature of creation– whereat the creator brings things into existence: because whatever the creator has a thought of, IS.

This is a process that we can probably replicate on a much reduced and less perfect degree.

Let there be Light.

I just could not resist this. Am I imagining things or does this poster seem very familiar? Take the time to breeze through the pages.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?action=profile;u=99429;sa=showPosts

However for the lazier amongst us, here are extracted the most telling pages:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-640

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-608

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-576

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-512

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-480

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-320

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-192

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-160

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/action-profile/u-99429/sa-showPosts/start-128

Some one tell me i'm deluded.

thehomer:
I really don't see how you misconstrued my statement as concession. I already said that a dead body has rights that are respected. I've not seen you dispute this. A next of kin can be overridden. e.g, in a case where a child requires a type of medical treatment, the wishes of the next of kin to deny such a treatment is overridden.

I am surprised you still do not see your whole-sale concession: look again at the example you have given: why is the next of kin overridden in that instance. Because the State recognises that he is doing something wrong

Aha!

How is homosexuality a deviation from normative sexual behaviour? Because it seems that going by your views, it is either heterosexuality or nothing. While it has been demonstrated that there are healthy people who simply do not have a heterosexual drive. Should they be considered sub-human or non-human?

This is the problem with human beings when they are in psychological tight-spot that leads them to adopt an overly defensive mode. You begin to imagine things that are simply not there. Its called paranoia. Where o where, Mr. Homer, did you see me state that homose.xuals should be considered sub-human or non human ? ? ? ? ?

Please take time to read what I am saying and not what I am not saying.

I stated that homkose.xuality is not natural. In defence of this assertion I stated that that which is unnatural is simply that which contradicts what is natural. I stated further that the reproductive instinct alone gives a clear pointer to the fact that what is given by nature is heterose.xual practice. Do you deny that heterose.xual practice is natural? If you deny that it is: state so. If you do not deny that it is natural: then inevitably you concede that that which is contrary to it is not the dictate of nature.

I do not know what sort of state of mind will urge you to deem a man thrusting into another man’s anus as natural: and proceed to the ridiculous extent of citing isolated and rare cases of similar animal behaviour to state that such is “natural.” In this you deliberately ignore the glaring fact that 99.999999999999999999999% of animals display heterose.xual practice. I call that fraud.

In other words, how many people carrying out an activity would it take for you to consider the activity "natural"?

O, I think when 99.999999999999999% of humans eat food, it should be normal to presume eating food to be natural to humans. Ditto heterose.xual practice. Especially in light of the reproductive element. Nature abhors a vacuum and everything has its purpose and its fit. It is clear that the se.xual instinct exists primarily for reproduction and this is a pointer to the fact that heterose.xual practice is that which is given by nature. Again, go ahead: be so intrepid as to deny this simple fact.

I don't understand why you are attempting to use animal behaviour as a standard for humans. Or do you feel that they should be used as standards for humans?

This simply has to be a joke: As I recall it YOU were the one who cited animal homose.xuality as evidence that human homose.xuality is “natural.” I gave you further examples of other animal behaviour and challenged you to indicate if you would similarly brand such behaviour as natural for humans. You abandoned the poser. And now you revert with this incongruous denial ? ? ?

It also baffles me why any sane person would feel it is right to trample and suppress other humans because these humans do not fit their own preconceived notions of what is natural and unnatural.

Paranoia again. Show me where I indicated in any way that homose.xuals should be “trampled and suppressed.”

I see that in your long statement, you still failed to define what you mean by natural. It seems that we have different views on the meaning of this word in this context.

No thanks: YOU felt quite free to use the word “natural” in relation to homose.xuals. So define it your self. I have already given sufficient indications of what I perceive it to mean.

You, on the contrary, started with the word “natural,” sought out animal behaviour examples to defend that, and then wound up denouncing comparing animals to humans. Confused?

So is anal intercourse between a man an woman "natural"? How about oral?

“Heterose.xual practice” is not Greek.

thehomer:
A dead body does require consent for procedures to be carried out on it. In some cases, courts may step in for some procedures to be permitted overriding the consent of the next of kin. A dead person still has some rights.

Exactly why should a court step in to stop the necrophilia? In this you have unwittingly ceded the discourse by recognising that there is an unnatural act being performed which is reprehensible - otherwise you would not talk about a court overriding the rights of a next-of-kin. The fact remains that the next-of-kin is legally empowered to take decisions on behalf of the dead person. That is not only law, but also holds as tradition across the world. There is thus no reason to override the decision of the next of kin save that which is obvious: to wit - a recognition that that which he does is perverse.

Thanks for the gracious concession.

I think you would need to clarify what you mean by "natural".

This is embarrassingly and rabidly dishonest. YOU freely bandied the word "natural" about: earlier in this thread you have repeatedly asserted homosexuality to be "natural" - now suddenly when i put a direct and uncomfortable question to you, you ask for a definition of the word "natural"? ? ? ? Give me a break!

Now, in case you missed it here is the succinct argument again -

  1. There are humans who delight in defecation as part of their se.xual behaviour

  2. There are animals that do the same.

Would you therefore say that defecation is a natural part of human se.xual behaviour?

OR IF YOU LIKE -

  1. There are humans who have se.xual intercourse with minors

  2. There are also animals that have se.xual intercourse with their young.

Would you therefore say that pedophilia is natural to humans? In this you cannot use the law as an escape because in certain societies it is not against the law and a child is free to give consent, or have such consent given by its legal guardians - the family.

OR IF YOU LIKE -

  1. Among humans, many consenting adults engage in sado-masochism.

  2. Intimidation and aggression are also a huge part of animal se.xual behaviour.

Would you therefore say that sado-masochism is natural se.xual behaviour for humans?

The fact of the matter remains very simple: you are seeking to violate and bastardize the very word “natural” by proposing an argument which in effect amounts to declaring every single thing that humans do to be natural!

It is patently obvious both from the reproductive instinct and normal human se.xual attraction that that which is natural to both humans and animals is heterosexual behaviour. From this it also naturally follows that homo-se.xual behaviour is not that which is deemed by nature or in the interests of nature. It thus is a deviation from normative se.xual behaviour and it is ridiculous to therefore argue that it is “natural” – it is not – for there may be no other definition of that which is unnatural save that it refers to such things as are contrary to the norms of nature: and it CANNOT be denied that heterosexual practice is a definite and UNDENIABLE norm of nature.

It beats me that any sane person could watch a man have se.x with another man by thrusting into that one’s anus and make an argument that this is “natural.” You do not need to be politically correct, you know. Political correctness is nothing but a lack of conviction: for if you have a conviction regarding right and wrong, you do not suffer it on account of political correctness.

Can you define for me if there is any se.xual behaviour that may be classed as perverse? List them for me and adduce reasons. Otherwise boldly declare that there is no such thing as a perversion.

^^^ I beg to differ on consent. A dead body is not a human being and as such no consent is required. Secondly if at all consent were required, then legally the person entitled to give such would be the dead person's next of kin. Do you consider that necrophila would be okay once consent is obtained from the next of kin? What if the next of kin, as the legal owner of the corpse, is the perpetrator of the act of necro - would that make it okay?

Ditto with animals. My dog can certainly give consent: for in many cases he will be the one to initiate the overtures when he is on heat: that surely puts paid to any doubts on consent!

Answer me this; in these circumstances are these actions "natural?"

Edit.

@thehomer -

With reference to the argument that animals engage in homosexual behaviour (through which you attempt to suppose that homosexuality is natural). you referred me to this -

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/arts/love-that-dare-not-squeak-its-name.html

I verily believe that I already addressed this when I made a distinction between the statements "animals are homosexual" and "some animals are homosexual"

I was clear on the point: that the deviant tendency of a minority can never suffice to conclude that a particular tendency is "natural." Because if this were the case, then this would be sufficient evidence that necrophillia, crocophila et al, are all perfectly natural: given that they is observed among a minority. That is disastrous logic.

We may also conclude that such things as are observed amongst animals such as lions that murder their young: are therefore also "natural" things for humans to do. How absurd. It is clear that this is not the normal tendency even amongst lions and it therefore makes no sense to categorize such as "natural."

At all events you already stated that animal behaviour cannot be a plank or standard for human conduct so i suppose you have ceded the point.

In any event, penguins are notoriously romantic and monogamous creatures - heterosexually. I cannot be convinced by a single anomaly that the reverse is the case.

Now i throw this challenge to you: IS BESTIALITY NATURAL? IF NOT, WHAT MAKES IT UNNATURAL?

Because i hope you realize that every argument you deploy to state homosexuality to be natural may EQUALLY be deployed to state bestiality, necrophila, crocophila, etc to ALL be natural - given that they all occur amongst a minority.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=371029.msg6233424#msg6233424 date=1276794246]I don't think any biological alien beings are visiting this place. Whatever is happening, if anything is, it's taking place in their heads. It might be real or not, since the workings of the brain isn't fully understood and I know there are non-physical beings and dimensions. But it doesn't seem physical, and some suggestion/ auto-suggestion is involved. Some Americans, with no prior alien abduction experience whatsoever are hypnotized by a psychologist or pyschiatrist and have the idea of alien abduction merely hinted to them. These people start spinning a detailed account of being abducted by aliens, and are sometimes so terrified their doctors bring them out of hypnosis. The terror and the emotions are real, but the incident never happened. Their brains cooked it up under a tiny suggestion from a psychiatrist. Imagine the suggestion possibilities from exposure to hundreds of abduction stories from the media and the whole UFO culture.

It's interesting that most of the abductions happen when they're in a sleep state or driving along a road at night (driving lulls one to sleep), the perfect brain scenario for autosuggestion. And in not ONE abduction has there ever been an independent witness to testify that, yes I looked out my window and saw Imogen floating in the air towards a spaceship. Not one single witness. Some claimed devices were inserted in their nostrils to track their lives or something. A few finally allowed theirs to be examined. They proved be made of everyday metals from this place, not a single metal or isotope alien to earth, as would be the case if it were technology from another planet. For every one story you get elsewhere (always exposed to American alien stories), you'll get countless thousands in America. 'Within reach of its media' means places where they receive American TV channels and other news media, and so are exposed to the alien abduction stories from America. The Americans know its their phenomenon, even if you don't.

As for your Elijah bible claims and the rest, I've confessed I'm not up to the challenge. You need braver souls for that. [/quote]Date
Name
City, State
Country
Description
Kind of Close Encounter
Sources

1886-08-12 José Bonilla Observation
Zacatecas Observatory
Mexico While observing sun spots, Bonilla, director of Zacatecas Observatory saw at least 283 objects crossing the disc of the sun. He was not able to count them as so many of them appeared simultaneously. However he took some photographs, which still exist and are said to be the oldest photographs of UFOs in the world. 0 [1]

1886-10-24 Maracaibo Incidence Maracaibo
Venezuela
In a letter, which was printed in Scientific American in the issue from December 18, 1886 on page 389, the US consul of Venezuela in Maracaibo reported that a bright object, accompanied with a humming noise, appeared during a rainy and tempestuous night over a hut near Maracaibo. The people in the hut showed afterward symptoms of a sickness, which one would today interpret as radiation disease. The trees surrounding the hut withered after nine days. 2 [2][3][4]

1897-04-19 Aurora Texas UFO Incident
Aurora, Texas
United States Alleged crash of a UFO and burial of the pilot, purported to be an alien, in the local cemetery. 3 [5][6]

1908-06-30 Tunguska event
Podkamennaya Tunguska River
Russian Empire
A massive explosion, most likely to be from a comet or meteoroid, but is also believed by UFO conspiracy theorists to have been from an explosion of a UFO.
2 [7][8]

1917-08-13, 09-13, 10-13 The Miracle of the Sun
Fatima Portugal Thousands of people saw what they thought was the sun gyrate and descend. This was later reinterpreted by Jacques Vallee, Joaquim Fernandes and Fina d'Armada as a possible UFO sighting that was not originally recognized as such due to cultural differences. 1 [9][10][11]

1926 Sightings by Nicholas Roerich Unknown, possibly Nepal (the Himalayas)
Nicholas Roerich's travel diary mentions that he and his companions encountered a silver metallic disc hovering above the Himalayas. They observed the disc through binoculars for some time until it disappeared beyond mountain peaks. 1 [12]

1940s Foo fighter
Small metallic spheres and colorful balls of light repeatedly spotted, and on occasion photographed, by military air crews around the world during World War II.
1 [13][14]

1942 Hopeh Incident
Hopeh
China A UFO was spotted and photographed. 1 [15]

1942-02-24 Battle of Los Angeles
Los Angeles, California
United States Unidentified aerial objects trigger the military to fire thousands of anti-aircraft rounds into the sky and raise the wartime alert status. 1 [16][17]

1946 Ghost rockets
Scandinavia Objects were sighted repeatedly over Scandinavia; Swedish Defense Staff expressed concern. 1 [18]

1946-05-18 UFO-Memorial Ängelholm
Ängelholm Municipality
Sweden Gösta Karlsson reports seeing a UFO landing and alien beings. A model of a flying saucer is now erected at the site. 3 [19]

1947-06-21 Maury Island incident
Washington
United States Harold A. Dahl reported an incident in which he claimed that his dog was killed and his son was injured by UFOs, and that a witness was threatened by Men in Black.
2 [20]

1947-06-24 Kenneth Arnold Unidentified Flying Object Sighting
Washington
United States The UFO sighting that sparked the name flying saucers. 2 [21]

1947-07-08 Roswell UFO incident
Roswell, New Mexico
United States United States Army Air Forces allegedly captures a flying saucer. 3 [22]

1948 Green fireballs
United States Objects reported over several United States military bases; an official investigation followed. 1 [23]

1948-01-07 Mantell UFO Incident
Kentucky
United States US Air Force sent a fighter pilot to investigate a UFO sighting over Fort Knox, Kentucky; the pilot was killed while pursuing the UFO. 2 [24]

1948-10-01 Gorman Dogfight
North Dakota
United States A US Air Force pilot sighted and pursued a UFO for 27 minutes over Fargo, North Dakota.
1 [25][26]

1950 Mariana UFO Incident
Great Falls, Montana
United States The manager of Great Falls' pro baseball team took color film of two UFOs flying over Great Falls. The film was extensively analyzed by the US Air Force and independent investigators. 1 [27]

1951-08-25 Lubbock Lights
Lubbock, Texas
United States Lights were repeatedly spotted flying over the city. They were witnessed by science professors from Texas Tech University and photographed by a Texas Tech student. 1 [28]

1952-07-13 1952 Washington D.C. UFO incident
Washington, D.C.
United States A series of sightings in July 1952 accompanied radar/visual contacts at three separate airports in the Washington area. The sightings made front-page headlines around the nation, and ultimately lead to the formation of the Robertson Panel by the CIA.
1 [29]

1952-07-24 Carson Sink UFO incident
Nevada
United States Two pilots saw three unusual aircraft, flying in a V-formation and with a Delta-wing airfoil, over Carson Sink. 1 [30]

1952-09-12 Flatwoods monster
Flatwoods, West Virginia
United States 6 local boys and a local woman report seeing a UFO landing and a bizarre-looking creature near the landing site. 3 [31][32][33]

June, 1953 Otis AFB
Falmouth, Massachusetts
United States A man claims that a U.S Air Force radar operator and pilot bailed out over Otis Air Force Base because of engine failure. They were chasing a UFO. Plane and operator never seen again. Pilot lives and the canopy is the only thing recovered. 1 [34]

1953-08-12 Ellsworth UFO Case
Bismarck, North Dakota
United States A UFO appearing as a red glowing light is witnessed by forty-five people. The sighting takes place over a two night period. 1 [35]

1953-11-23 Felix Moncla
Lake Superior
United States - Canada U.S Air Force Pilot disappears while pursuing a UFO. 1 [36]

1955-08-21 Kelly-Hopkinsville encounter
Kentucky
United States A group of strange, goblin-like creatures are reported to have attacked a family, while the family shot at them. 3 [37]

1957 Antonio Villas Boas
São Francisco de Sales
Brazil
Antonio Villas Boas claimed to have been abducted and examined by aliens. He also claimed to have had sex with an alien woman during his time aboard a UFO. 4 [38]

1957-05-20 Milton Torres 1957 UFO Encounter
East Anglia
United Kingdom US Air Force fighter pilot Milton Torres reports that he was ordered to interecept and fire on a UFO displaying "very unusual flight patterns" over East Anglia. Ground radar operators had tracked the object for some time before Torres' plane was scrambled to intercept. 1 [39]

1957-11-02 Levelland UFO Case
Levelland, Texas
United States Numerous motorists reported seeing a strange, glowing, egg-shaped object which caused their vehicle's engines to shut off. When the object flew away, their vehicles restarted and worked normally. 2 [40]

1959 Dyatlov Pass incident
Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Mysterious deaths of experienced skiers in the Urals is believed to have been caused by "unidentified orange spheres" and an "unknown compelling force". 2 [41]

1959 Alor Incident
Alor Archipelago
Indonesia
This incident occurred on July 1959, in the Alor Islands area. 3 [42]

1961-09-19 Betty and Barney Hill abduction
New Hampshire
United States A widely publicized alien abduction experience. 4 [43]

1964-04-24 Lonnie Zamora
Socorro, New Mexico
United States Zamora, a police officer, reports a close encounter. 3 [44]

1965 Exeter incident
Exeter, New Hampshire
United States A UFO was observed by a teenager and two police officers. 1 [45]

1965 Project Serpo
United States A reported secret exchange program between the U.S government and an extraterrestrial race from Planet Serpo. 5 [46]

1965-12-01 Adhara Observatory UFO Lunar Transit San Miguel
Argentina
At 8.30 pm the Adhara Observatory got several calls from people who saw that there seems to be something unusual was happening on the moon. The staff of the observatory took photographs of the moon in fixed intervals, which showed the development disk shaped objects in front of the moon. A few minutes after these photographs were made, three strange luminous objects flew over La Plata. 0 [47]

1965-12-09 Kecksburg UFO incident
Kecksburg, Pennsylvania
United States Mass sighting of a falling UFO, followed by a cordoning-off of the crash site. 1 [48]

1966 The Mothman Prophecies
Point Pleasant, West Virginia
United States A wave of sightings of a winged humanoid is reported to be connected to other mysterious events including sightings of UFOs. 1 [49]

1966-01-11 Wanaque Reservoir UFO Wanaque Reservoir, Wanaque, New Jersey
United States UFO in the form of a bright light seen in the vicinity of Wanaque Reservoir, leading to traffic jams and overloaded police communications networks. UFO changed color on a continuing basis, although white was apparently one of the major colors; it shot a beam of light down towards the ice near the dam, stayed around there for about a half hour, and flew off to the southeast, where it was sighted by others. Another UFO sighting of a similar nature, flying in a back and forth motion, occurred the next night in Wanaque. The mayor at the time, Warren Hagstrom,as well as the chief of police Floyd Elston,and captain Joe Sisco watched the craft for quite sometime.Two reservoir police,Sgt.Ben Thompson and patolman Edward Wester, also witnessed the craft along with many Wanaque residents. Some saw the craft as early as 7:45 pm 1 [50]

1966-04-06 Westall UFO
Clayton South, Victoria
Australia A sighting by hundreds of people. Witnesses of "The Clayton Incident" still gather for reunions. 1 [51]

1966-04-17 Portage County UFO chase
Ohio
United States Several police officers pursue a UFO for 30 minutes. 1 [52]

1966-10-11 The Grinning Man
Elizabeth, New Jersey
United States Strange tall man with no nose or ears is sighted in a neighborhood shortly after UFO sighting. 2
1967-03-05 Minot Air Force Base UFO Incidents Minot/Minot A.F.B., North Dakota
United States UFO appears to hovers over area, strike teams are called in to confront the UFO. 1 [53]

1967-03-?? Malmstrom AFB Incident Malmstrom A.F.B.
United States 1 [53]

1967-05-20 Falcon Lake Incident
Falcon Lake, Manitoba
Canada A UFO's exhaust allegedly burns a man. 2 [54]

1967-08-29 Close encounter of Cussac
Cussac, Cantal
France A young brother and sister claim to have witnessed a UFO and its occupants. 3 [55]

1967-10-04 Shag Harbour incident
Shag Harbour, Nova Scotia
Canada A UFO was seen crashing into Shag Harbor. A Canadian naval search followed, and is officially referred to as a UFO crash. 2 [56][57]

1967-12-03 Schirmer Abduction
Ashland, Nebraska
United States Sergeant Herbert Schirmer claimed he was abducted. 4 [58]

1967 Minot Air Force Base UFO Incidents Minot/Minot A.F.B., North Dakota
United States Air Force claims unidentifiable craft "attacks" air base, specifically the missile silos. (the "attack" was two strange, beams of light, one of which seemed to be an offensive weapon. One of numerous cases involving the base, which is home to a nuclear weapons stockpile, and the missile silos are home to nuclear warhead missiles.) 1 [53]

1968-6-6 Minot Air Force Base UFO Incidents Minot/Minot A.F.B., North Dakota
United States UFO hovers over a silo, then leaves. After the UFO leaving, personnel discovered that the missile was armed and unlocked in launch mode, and the nuclear warhead was armed. 2 [53]

1968-10-25 Minot Air Force Base UFO Incidents Minot/Minot A.F.B., North Dakota
United States 1 [53][59][60]

1969-01-01 Prince George sightings Prince George, British Columbia
Canada Three unrelated witnesses reported a strange, round object in the late afternoon sky. The sphere radiated a yellow-orange light and appeared to ascend from 2,000 feet (610 m) to 10,000 feet (3,000 m). 1 [61]

1969 Jimmy Carter UFO incident
Leary, Georgia
United States Jimmy Carter's sighting.
1 [62]

1970s Barry DeLong UFO incident Somerset County, Maine
United States Sheriff Barry A. DeLong witnessed a UFO: "They were hovering about 15 feet (4.6 m) from my cruiser, late at night. It had fixed lights that were spinning. It was huge, and oval-shaped. I knew it wasn't a jet fighter. It slowly started backing off toward Sugarloaf, and then at a terrific speed." 1 [63]

1970-04 Border incidence between Russia and China 1000 kilometres north of Ulan Bator Mongolia
In the border area between Russia and China as well Chinese and Russian air traffic controllers observed multiple unidentified flying objects. The Russian believed they were Chinese and the Chinese believed they were Russian spionage planes. On April 24, 1970 a Russian bomber disappeared from its flight from Moscow to Vladivostok without a trace. On the same day a lot of these objects were observed. Each trial to shoot them down failed. By triangulation one found out that the UFOs came from an area in Mongolia, 1000 kilometres north of Ulan Bator. The area was bombed by hundred of Russian planes whereby a secret tunnel system was alledgly destroyed. Some rumours claim that even nuclear weapon were used. Officially these actions were named as spring maneuver and a small border conflict. [64],[65],[66]

1971-09-04 Lake Cote UFO Arenal, Alajuela Costa Rica
Considered the best UFO picture of all times. An UFO was photographed during an official mapping mission from an airborne camera, over Lake Cote, Costa Rica. No crew member saw the object at the time, but an image appeared on the developed film. [67][68]

1973-10-11 Pascagoula Abduction
Mississippi
United States Alien abduction occurs while the victims were fishing on the Pascagoula River.
4 [69]

1974-01-23 Berwyn Mountain UFO incident
Llandrillo, Merionethshire, North Wales
United Kingdom An alleged UFO crash involving lights in the sky being reported and a large impact shock being felt. The cause of the incident was soon revealed as a 3.5 Magnitude earthquake. 1 [70][71]

1975-01-12 North Hudson Park UFO sightings North Bergen, NJ
United States Considered a close encounter of the second and third kind, the case introduced Budd Hopkins to UFO research, a later key figure in alien abduction research. Researcher Jerome Clark cites it as one of the best-documented, the core story being corroborated by numerous independent witnesses. 2 [72]

1975-11-05 Travis Walton
Arizona
United States Logger Travis Walton reports being abducted by aliens following his five-day disappearance. Walton's six workmates claimed to have witnessed the UFO at the start of his abduction. Walton described the event and its aftermath in The Walton Experience, which was dramatized in the film Fire in the Sky.
4 [69]

1976-06-22 1976 Canary Isles sightings
Canary Islands
Spain Several lights and a spherical, transparent blue craft, piloted by two beings was reported. 1 [73]

1976-08-20 Allagash Abductions
Maine
United States Four campers claimed an abduction by alien beings in the Allagash wilderness. 4 [74]

1976-09-19 1976 Tehran UFO incident
Tehran
Iran
A UFO disabled the electronic equipment of two F-4 interceptor aircraft, and ground control equipment as well. The event is well-documented in the U.S. DIA report and other documents. The Iranian generals involved in the incident said on public record that object was extraterrestrial.
2 [75]

1977 Colares UFO flap
Colares
Brazil
A bewildering account of an island which was flooded by harmful UFOs. 2 [76]

1978-05-10 Emilcin Abduction
Emilcin
Poland A man at Emilcin, Poland is said to be abducted by "grays." There is now a memorial at the site. 4 [77]

1978-10-21 Valentich Disappearance
Victoria
Australia An Australian pilot reported a UFO sighting to air traffic control before he and his aircraft vanished without a trace. 1 [78][79]

1978-12-21 Kaikoura lights
South Island
New Zealand A series of sightings by a Safe Air freight plane; the airplane was escorted by strange lights that changed color and size. 1 [80]

1979-08-27 Val Johnson Incident
Marshall County, Minnesota
United States A deputy sheriff spotted a strange bright light which appeared to have collided with his patrol car and damaged it. The deputy also suffered temporary eye damage from the "light". 2 [81][82]

1979-11-09 Robert Taylor incident
Livingston
United Kingdom A forester, Bob Taylor, was pulled by two spiked globes towards a UFO, which stood on a clearing. He lost consciousness and afterwards had trouble walking and speaking and felt thirsty for days. At the clearing several traces were found. 4 [83]

1979-11-11 Manises UFO Incident
Valencia
Spain Three large UFOs forced a commercial flight to make an emergency landing at Manises airport. 1 [84]

1980s Hudson Valley UFO sightings Hudson Valley
United States A UFO flap during the eighties and early nineties, involving thousands of reports of similarly-shaped UFOs. They were first observed by a retired policeman in Kent, New York, late on New Year's Eve, 1981. The 1984 "Incident at Indian Point" was one of these sightings. 1 [85]

1980-6-28 Disappearance of N3808H Puerto Rico
Puerto Rico
Flight N3808H disappears without a trace during a flight from Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic to San Jose, Puerto Rico 2 [86]

1980-12-28 Rendlesham Forest Incident
Suffolk, England
United Kingdom A sighting which was first thought to be a downed aircraft. 2 [87]

1980-12-29 Cash-Landrum incident
Dayton, Texas
United States A huge diamond-shaped UFO irradiates three witnesses, who were treated for radiation poisoning. The UFO was in the company of military helicopters and the victims have since sued the US Government. 2 [88]

1986 1986 São Paulo UFO sighting

1986-11-17 Japan Air Lines flight 1628 incident
Alaska United States A group of UFOs flew alongside Japan Air Lines Flight 1628 for 50 minutes above Northeastern Alaska. One of the objects trailing behind the Boeing 747 was detected by military radar.
1 [89]

1990-03-30 Belgian UFO wave
Ans, Wallonia
Belgium Mass sighting of large, silent, low-flying black triangles, which were tracked by multiple NATO radar and jet interceptors, and investigated by Belgium's military. Photographic evidence exists. 1 [90]
[91]

1990-11-07 1990 Montreal UFO Montreal, Quebec
Canada For more than 3 hours, more than 40 people, including policemen, observe a UFO above Place Bonaventure.
1 [92]

1991-04-21 Achille Zaghetti London, England United Kingdom Alitalia pilot Achille Zaghetti reports a cigar-shaped UFO flying past his plane at high speed during his descent to Heathrow Airport on a flight from Milan to London. Immediately following the near-miss, Zaghetti contacted the area control center radar operator who confirmed an unidentified target was observed 10 nautical miles behind the plane. British defence officials ruled out a missile, but offered no explanation for the sighting. 1 [93][94]

1991 STS-48 incident
Orbit, Space
Discovery, STS-48
A video apparently shot during STS-48 mission, appears to depict objects flying in an artificial fashion. NASA explained the objects as ice particles reacting to engine jets. Philip C. Plait briefly discussed it in Bad Astronomy, and agreed with NASA. A Florida Today article of 2000 quoted Dr. Jack Kasher as saying that found the footage to depict independently operated spacecraft, see "Journal for UFO Studies". 1 [95]

1993 Kelly Cahill Victoria
Australia East of Melbourne's Dandenong foothills Kelly Cahill and five others reported being confronted by a flying saucer that appeared shortly after midnight, and tall, slim, black aliens with glowing red eyes. 5 [96]

1994-06 Meng Zhaoguo Incident
Wuchang
China Meng claimed to have had sexual intercourse with an alien, and to have been subsequently abducted. 4 [97]

1996-01-20 Varginha UFO incident
Varginha, Minas Gerais
Brazil
Multiple sightings and alleged capture of alien entity by the Brazilian military. 3 [98]

1997 Area 51: The Alien Interview
Area 51, Nevada
United States Video footage of an alleged interview with an alien. 5 [99]

1997-03-13 Phoenix Lights
Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico
United States A strange set of lights are seen over Nevada, Arizona and possibly New Mexico.
1 [100]

1997-08-06 Mexico City skyline UFO Mexico City Mexico An amateur cameraman with a digital camera captured footage of a UFO passing behind and above several buildings. Air traffic was restricted that day except for two helicopters. 1 [101]

2000-01-05 Southern Illinois UFO St. Clair County, Illinois
United States Between the hours of 4 and 7 am, six people, four of whom were police officers, observed a large, triangular shaped object in the night skies only a few hundred feet over St. Clair County. The object glided silently and slowly in a south-westerly direction over several towns before vanishing near the town of Dupo just before 7 am. The object which was reported to have several bright lights, was also reported to be as tall as a two-story house and as long as a football field. 1 [102]

Wirinet: I am not sure that I am inclined towards starting that debate now: but I would urge you to also have a look at your supposition that time is a fabric which can be folded. That is the particular supposition that i stated i doubt: and contrary to what you say IT HAS NOT EVER BEEN PROVEN THAT TIME CAN BE FOLDED, so please before advising me to "read up" can you please show me when it was ever proved that time can be folded?

Can you show me which piece of the fabric called time was ever folded in any scientific experiment, and exactly when such a folding occurred? ? ?

If you cannot do this, please quit the chit chat.

I am rather bemused that you are not aware that the supposed folding of time to create a wormhole is and remains a hypothesis which has not ever been done ANYWHERE. So please!

You you are supposed to be a scientist? In which lab did you fold time?

Now in case you have forgotten the posers I gave you: here there are again.

1. You said –

Why would aliens come to a planet that is poisonous to them, in which they would most certainly die?

And I answered – WHY IS MAN PLANNING A MISSION TO MARS, SINCE THE ATMOSPHERE THERE IS CERTAINLY POISONOUS AND DAMAGING TO US?

ANSWER ME THIS, AND SEE HOW RIDICULOUS YOUR SUPPOSITION IS!

Is it not clear that we will –

a. Develop appropriate body suits and

b. Seek to gain increased planetary knowledge by such a visit?

Maybe you never heard of the emerging field of science called Planetary Engineering. That is the future: and your knowledge is hopelessly archaic.

2. You said that I recklessly imagined aliens to have a head start of millions of years.

a. You acknowledged yourself that the emerging scientific evidence suggests strongly that there are very probably other civilizations out there

b. You are aware of the age of the universe.

c. [ ……. ] I leave the space; derive your own conclusion.

For a + b above render it clear that there must needs be in existence many very old civilizations.


     3. You still did not answer my poser on myriad futuristic possibilities.

I have noticed your style of picking one thing you imagine suits you and abandoning the several other points which you clearly have no answer to.

Now for the umpteenth time you have deliberately misquoted or misrepresented me. I am beginning to suspect you never attended English comprehension classes because no person on this forum has ever told so many up-front lies about my very clear statements.

CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE I CITED THE BIBLE AS EVIDENCE FOR UFOs? ? ? ? ?

What i rather did was clear - you stated that we NEVER HEAR SUCH STORIES OUTSIDE NORTH AMERICA: I POINTED TO ONE SUCH STORY WHICH APPEARS IN THE BIBLE - IN THE MIDDLE-EAST WHICH IS NOT NORTH AMERICA. I did not say that the story was true: just as i have not said any sighting is true: what remains clear is that they are all claims - and there exists a claim - in the bible - which is not north america! - contrary to what you claimed.

I never said anything about the veracity of that Bible story. It is notoriously known on this forum that i do not believe in the bible. The simple fact remains that the bible story is another claim just like any other claim. Whether it is false or not does nothing to change the fact that contrary to what you said, it is and remains a claim just like the claims of today: and it is NOT in North America.

You inferred that all saucer sightings are bogus. I have no problem with that so long as your proof is NOT that the sightings occur only in NORTH AMERICA. Because that is a square LIE - the sightings are recorded in many different parts of the world including Russia and similar "bogus" stories appear in the middle-eastern tradition recorded in the bible. SO YOUR CLAIM WAS CATEGORICALLY FALSE: SQUARE UP TO THAT. The issue is not the veracity of the claims or the bible but the simple fact that similar claims are made outside north america: including in the bible.

Now aside from the foregoing, why were you so cowardly as to look away from the other pointers i raised?

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=371029.msg6231399#msg6231399 date=1276782148]Science is 'exploring' wormholes as a means of travel? No, they are not. They've never even seen a wormhole. They merely hypothetisize about it.[/quote]I am sure you can read more carefully than this.

I wrote – “Science is exploring THE POSSIBILITY of wormholes.”

I never said they have seen such and I specifically stated that I personally doubt the particular concept of folding space-time to create worm-holes as I do not regard time as a fabric.

You have an annoying habit of imagining things that I never said and completely missing simple pointers.

What is germane is the fact that there are myriad possibilities which may have nothing to do with speed or light. Many factors are yet to be discovered and we can [b]never [/b]tell what undiscovered laws or factors may bring to the table in terms of future possibilities or inter-dimensional mobility. Star Wars is a peek into the future just as surely as in the late nineteenth century things like fax machines were science fiction. Just DO NOT close your mind – the brilliant never do.

The speed of light is 186000 miles per second.One light minute is 186000 X 60. Imagine the distance in a light year. One thousand light years. One million light years. One billion light years. Some distances are computed in trillions of light years. And that's just for the visible universe, a tiny fraction of the entire universe itself. The universe is enormous beyond computing and incredible distances separate everything.

Who are you telling this? ? ? ? Me?

How does this in any way limit what modes of interstellar travel may be chanced upon in a thousand years time?

I understand the limitations of your mind: they are quite akin to a 1st century person being briefed on aerodynamics. Of course he will imagine it impossible.

Mind you, most physicists are sure there's intelligent biological life in the universe. Drake's equation states the possibility of millions of civilizations in the Milky Way alone. Each would have evolved to find its planet uniquely suitable for life. The building blocks of life are abundant in the universe, needig only clement conditions and lots of time to spring to life.

Correct.   

Here you are stating tha not only are aliens visiting this planet, you 'dashed' them advanced technology to plug any loopholes. You've never even seen an alien or an alien craft. There's no shred of evidence that biological aliens come here. But you've invented an alien being and given it a head start of millions of years. All from thin air. Science may not not know much, but even the wildest scientist knows not to go that far.

You are simply not up to date. The existence of extra-terrestrial intelligence is more likely than not, just as you noted earlier. Now juxtapose that against the age of the universe and it emerges that logically there must be very old civilizations in existence. This only makes sense. Want to argue it further? I’m ready to go, if you are.

Why would aliens come to a planet that is poisonous to them, in which they would most certainly die?

Why do men go to the moon?

Why is there a mission to Mars planned?

Aha.

Get real, and if you must give me questions, give me tasking questions, not these non-starters.

All there is are stories of alien abductions. Why is it that alien abduction stories are NEVER reported anywhere outside of North America or the reach of its media?

That is false. The Bible records a number of sightings which when analysed appear very much like modern saucer sightings. I wonder what "chariot of fire" really whisked Elijah up into the skies. That is hardly North America or its media, is it? Besides does it not occur to you that there is a chasm between the poor parts of the world and the rich – such that a sighting in Jalingo by a lone illiterate herdsman is not likely to be heard by anybody other than his family? What access to CNN does he have? Does it not also occur to you what areas of the world might be more interesting to an alien civilization? If we were to do the same, would we not spend more time examining the advanced races of an alien specie and their advancements rather than skoot over to muddy backwater roads in technologically empty areas? You honestly need to watch the latest Discovery expose on declassified Russian military documents regarding UFOs and USOs. The evidence is mounting and it is quite startling.

wirinet:
Deepsight, science is based on series of facts. You put many bits and pieces of known scientific facts together to reach a conclusion. So it is not based on wishful thinking or assumptions. Even your above premise is very wrong. A sentient being that inhabit a planet millions of light years away would never be able to get here, even if it can travel at the speed of light (which in itself is an impossibility). Since light has a finite speed, it means the sentient being left its home planets millions of years ago (before homosapiens came unto the scene).

I am amazed that you imagine travelling at the speed of light is the only possible means of transportation between distant parts of the universe. Science is already exploring the possibility of such things as worm holes through which connections could be made. The simple fact is that in view of such staggering possibilities you must acknowledge that any beings who have had a head-start on us by millions of years would necessarily have developed more robust mechanisms of traversing the universe some of which may not even involve mechanical movement along a trajectory at all, talk less of travelling at any speed of light.

The possibilities regarding interstellar travel are legion: and the discovery of holes through which vast distances may be traversed in a millisecond is a significant possibility. Scientists talk about bending the fabric of space-time (i personally do not subscribe to that) to create wormholes. In view of these and other new lines of thought your submissions are out dated and altogether irrelevant.

This affirms to me that you are thinking in a box.

I am surprised that you dare limit or restrict with present possibilities what may be possible with another 200 years of scientific advancement.

Not to speak of millions of years of scientific advancement.

I tell you: what we know is a drop in the ocean compared to what is still unknown. For this reason i urge you to refrain from imagining that a being with a head-start of millions of years cannot complete a cross-universal journey. We have not been around long enough to state that in the least - we simply know too little.

Wirinet, so females make bad scientists?

Nat-geo wouldn't agree with you there.

@ Mad Max/ Wirinet -

I am surprised by your assumptions. You both assume aliens cannot survive on earth. That's quite a presumption because it would be very strange to me that any sentient beings would have the capacity to traverse millions of light years of interstellar space and would not have the technology for appropriate body-suits to survive in alternate atmospheric conditions. For crying out loud even mere men have developed technologies to enable them enter and remain on the moon for substantial periods of time! How you suppose that other intelligent beings could not acheive better beats me.

Jenwitemi:
Shallow Sight, that is quantum physics, it is way over your head. Have you ever heard of the "observer effect" in science. It says that, "nothing exists until it is observed by the consciousness of sentient beings".

I laugh! Perhaps you are one of those goons who hold on to a warped understanding of quantum physics to assert that virtual particles are evidence that things may emerge out of nothing. I don't have the energy to engage your hallucinations. Please review the discussion on virtual particles here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-445085.96.html

@ Sarmy -

I can't start this all over again. Jenwitemi's serial delusions have already been duscussed in-toto here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-459287.0.html

Jenwitemi's illogical fantasies again?

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In other words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator. It is not what makes him EXIST ab-initio.

The fact of God's being a creator is ALTOGETHER different from HIS EXISTENCE - his existence NOT contingent on whether he creates anything or not.

So for example if YOU create works of art you are an artist. This does not mean that if you do not create works of art then you do not exist. That would be a ludicruous line of thinking. Its that simple.

I know I am an unwanted and much despised guest on this thread, but I would like to ask some questions.

I think the subject of Christ's sacrifice and God's eternal plans is very interesting.

Some one once said to me that Christ's sacrifice is something that took place beyond time and space before anything existed (Pastor AIO). I took him to task on that: suggesting that if that were the case: and in tandem with the precept of an omnipotent God, it would be clear that God knew beforehand the fall of man and had already ameliorated it through his personal sacrifice.

I am at odds regarding the picture of the perfection of God that this presents. Surely it is inconceivable for an omnipotent and omniscient deity to proceed with a creation he already was aware would require interventionist measures as grave as the mission of Christ.

This altogether dovetails into the question of God's eternal plans. Is interventionism compatible with the notion of a perfect God who has, by dint of his perfection set out a perfect creation? If the creation were perfect, what need would there ever be for interventions. If it were not, could it be the work of a perfect deity?

I ask these questions in good faith. As the trajectory of my life proceeds i fear I may be compelled by forces beyond my control to bring up my children as Christians. How would i reconcile these seeming contradictions to them - especially in the terrible event that one of them inherits the nature of my own questioning mind?

I REPEAT -

What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

@ Zikky: I never for ONCE suggested that con artists or tithe-mongering pastors do not bear personal responsibility; they do - everybody does.

As for victims of con artists, I can tell you that in most instances they are victims of their own greed. I have been swindled before: and I know very well it happened because I was eager to triple a small amount of money. Do not dare suggest to me that I am not personally responsible for the greed that led me into the lair of the fraudster.

The point is that we actively PARTCIPATE in the fraud for it to happen. The money belongs to you and you take a conscious decision to part with it based on your beliefs. Every iota of your beliefs is something you should scrutinize rigorously at all times and we bear strict personal responsibility for this.

This is altogether different from a robbery whereat the robbed person does not participate: his goods are simply taken without his permission or by violent force. So long as some one is sweet-talking you you are under no obligation and you cannot escape your responsibility for your misfortune.

I NEED CHAMPIONS. I NEED BOLD AND RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WHO STAND UP AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR LIVES AND DESTINIES. I AM NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE CONTRARY ARGUMENTS AS FOR ME THEY ARE SYMPTOMATIC OF COWARDICE AND A FAILURE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

Such persons lack responsible honour.

If you could say this regarding cosmic bodies -

They did not exist until sentient beings(astronomers) consciously perceived them through the telescope. And here is something even crazier for you to contemplate on, in the instant that any astronomer stop peeping into a telescope, whatever was seen instantly seizes to exist, until that astronomer looks into the telescope once again.

Then I give up; you are entirely and irretrievably lost in your delusions if you imagine that the Planet Neptune or the Andromeda galaxy keep popping into and out of existence based on which tiny human being on earth is looking at them through a telescope.

Are you alright?

Please go and study astronomy and the age of these cosmic bodies ol boy. You have NO idea what they are. You state to me that other galaxies do not exist unless we are observing them. I am sorry, but that is simply stark illiteracy.

Maybe when you lock up your bedroom and go out to work, the bedroom ceases to exist since no one is observing it. According to you, it pops back into existence once you return to open the door. Bravo! Aladdin in the Arabian Cave of Wonders!

Na wah for you. You need a medical check-up.

Enjoy, Alice in Wonderland. I am surprised i ever bothered with your delusions.

Again - In your response to me you described the creator as the "initiator" of the creation.

Then in your response to Bastage you asserted that the creator is only the imagination of created beings.

Which is it?

LOL!

I repeat; you are violently confused and I sincerely warn you to be careful of your sanity. I mean this in a sincere way because I have been there before and I can tell you that you are leading yourself to a state wherein you will become existentially challenged. You will snap. Seriously.

@ Jenwitemi - This quote from YOU -

In any creative process, there is always the creator and the created, right? First, the creator initiates a creation, and then the created brings the creator into existence via it's power of conscious perception and contemplation

Summarily proves that your conjecture is not worth any body's attention.

1. You stated that the creator is the INITIATOR who INITIATES creation. This shows that you concede that the creator existed before the creation

2. You CONTRADICT yourself by stating that the creation (after it is initiated by the creator) BRINGS THE CREATOR INTO EXISTENCE.

This is a horrid and irretrievable contradiction as it envisages a creator being brought into existence AFTER it had already initiated the creation (which shows that it existed already before the creation!). Can i ask you how the creator initiated the craetion if it DID NOT EXIST at that point of initiation? Since according to you it could not exist without the cognition of created sentient beings.

Your posts are a comic relief.

Again in your response to Bastage you repeat that nothing can exist without recognition by sentient beings.

I repeat my earlier question to you; did the planet Neptune exist before humans discovered it?

Did uranium exist before humans discovered it?

Did the Andromeda galaxy exist before humans discovered it?

It seems that you do not read at all. I asked you these questions and you ignored them. Of course what these questions ineluctably demonstrate is that things exist OUTSIDE our perception. Thus our cognition is not central to the xistence of anything which is outside our perception. If this is the case then your surmise that God cannot exist without our cognition is bunkum.

Bastage:
You didn't listen in class then. Mark is thought by scholars to have been written within 60 to 70 years of the purported time of Jesus' death. That's hardly 3 generations.

In 70 years there could be three generations if you consider a generation as a general age-group. This is demonstrated by the fact that a seventy year old person can easily have a son who also has a son. THREE GENERATIONS.

Again, you didn't listen. The Mithraic cult was not Egyptian. It was Roman.

He didn't say it was Egyptian. If you read again carefully he said it was the egyptian version of the myth.

And you know this how? Scholars know very, very little about the Mithraic Mysteries. There are a few conjectures that some rituals and elements crossed over but in no way can your statement stand as true. The fact is, so little is known about the Mithras Cult, there is no way of knowing exactly what Christianity adopted.

I agree with this. I once bandied about mithra myself but Davidylan successfully showed me that it could not be substantiated.

@ Mudley - by the way, Mithra is said to have emerged whole from a Rock: not born of a virgin.

Nonetheless it remains true that the myth about the virgin birth is most certainly influenced by many similar ancient traditions.

So. After a quick perusal (you don't warrant more than that) three glaring mistakes in your rebuttal. And I'm meant to take you seriously?

Mudley is often muddled up. But I will for my part pardon him because the bizzarre claims of many religions (particularly the christian faith) are quite enough to excercise any person's patience or sanity. It certainly has excercised mine violently in the past: and I dare say pushed me to the point where I have made remoseless enemies (online!) of some previously precious friends.

I happen to be dating a solid christian. For the peace and progress of the relationship I have since decided to place my objections in my pocket. Faith is what it is; and nobody can claim that it does not have its positive aspects. It does.

thehomer:
Homosexuality is natural. There are several instances of it occurring in other animals.

I have often heard people assert that instances of supposed “homosexuality” in animals prove that homosexuality is natural.

And I positively assert that it is a comprehensively false and fraudulent argumentation.

Let’s have a critical look at it –

For the argument to fly, the natural first premise is that Humans are Animals.

Although this premise is only partially correct, and may be said to be an over-statement or a limitation of definition regarding the nature of humanity, i will not dwell on it because humans indisputably are given of some of the same physical instincts as animals are. I will therefore give this premise a pass mark. Let's proceed.

The second premise on which the argument is hinged is that Animals engage in Homo Sexuality.

Now this premise is fraught with severe problems. Some of these problems are:

1. It is a mis-characterization of an exception as a rule:

Let me elucidate: If one were to state: "Human beings eat food" - the direct inference would be that eating food is a normal and standard practice for human beings. That would be a correct inference as the statement has been set out in broad, generalistic terms.

Let's take another statement: "Human beings are cannibals." This is another broad generalistic statement that could lead to a wrong inference: namely, that it is in the nature of human beings to be cannibals, and thus a normal and standard human practice. The correct way to phrase this statement would be – "Some human beings are cannibals." In this way it becomes clear that it is not necessarily within the nature of human beings to be cannibals, but that some human beings do practice such.

This is why i said that the second premise is a mis-characterization of an exception as a rule. It should properly have read: "Some animals engage in homosexuality" - thus making it clear that homosexuality is not necessarily the norm within the animal sub-set.

If it is not the norm within the animal sub-set, we can hardly use this premise to reach a conclusion that it is anything but an exception for human beings (who, by the way, have a higher ethical reasoning capacity). That would be a fundamental contradiction in terms.

Even if the foregoing reasoning is wrong (i doubt that it is), there is a second and even more fundamental problem with the premise. This problem concerns the nature of animal homosexuality in the first place. To wit -

2. Animals are not homosexual in the proper definition of the word. Let's watch the cases of so-called animal homosexuality. Do such cases have any co-relation with human homosexuality? I contend that they are entirely dissimilar. This is the reason:

Animals do not make a distinction regarding the object of their sexual attention with reference to instinctive physical motions. For example when my dog is on heat, he will attempt to mount anything at all: including humans. He will push himself against a pole, against me, and against other dogs (male or female) in exercising the instinctive sexual motion. He does not see and develop a desire for a fellow male, he only makes instinctive sexual motions directed at anything. This is significantly different from humans who will see and have specific desires for persons of the same sex. No animal will engage in homosexual conduct if there is an available female on hand, against which it may throw its instinctive physical motions, but human homosexuality will actively disdain the female and specifically desire the male.

If you appreciate the foregoing, you will understand that animals are not in fact homosexual at all - in the proper sense of the word. Do they have a homosexual desire? Can you show me even one single animal that only sexually targets the same sex? You cannot, because animals are not homosexual in the definition of the word, and their so-called acts of homosexuality, comparatively speaking, are really just mindless acts of mas.turbation on any available entity.

Therefore, on either or both planks - the point must emphatically be made that animal acts of homosexuality can never be a premise for human homosexuality because as i have shown above -

i. Animals are not homosexual within the context of homosexual desire and

ii. Even if they are, it is the case that some animals are, and not all. It is the exception, rather than the rule, and as such this could not possibly make a case for human homo-sexuality being anything but the same: the exception and not the rule.

Given that the premise fails, the conclusion also naturally fails.

However, the Conclusion, if i might add, suffers independent problems of its own.

The conclusion is that in the natural order of things homosexuality is not a deviance from expected biological behavior.

Can we define the word "deviation".

Without bothering to consult a dictionary, i suppose that we can all agree that a deviation is a departure from a norm, a variation or a digression.

"Expected biological behaviour", must clearly refer to the in-built sexual orientation geared towards biological goals. That's the only apt use of the word "biological" within that phrase. It is patently clear, from both the structure of reproductive organs, and the biological result of copulation (reproduction) that the sexual behaviour expected by nature should be heterosexual in nature. In addition to the fact that homosexuality is not the norm in any human society, it could thus be said to be both un-natural and anti-social. At the very minimum, it definitely represents a deviation, however that may be defined.

However: addressing the topic of this thread, i must state without much ado that although i previously had a murderous attitude to the very idea that any person could be gay, i concede that it is patently obvious, and also empirically verified, that some persons have abnormal hormonal imbalances which affect their sexual orientation. Some men have degrees of female hormones that render them effeminate, and some women (beard and all) have degrees of male hormones that render them mannish, and thus inclined to become lesbians. This is a scientific fact, and no person can contest this.

But in summary - it's ceratinly abnormal and unnatural and perhaps scientific solutions (such as hormonal re-balancing) should be sought.

What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

Take another look at this -

Deep Sight:
The personal responsibility that I refer to is thus responsibility for your being deceived. If you are have been a tither and the scales one day fall from your eyes, you look around for a person to blame. I insist that the person to blame is yourself.

Do you disagree with the above?

Do you state that people do not have responsibility for themselves in these matters?

MyJoe:
I agree you did not say “a tither will be punished”. But if you look at the context again you may see why it was necessary to clear up that matter.

While personal responsibility is the reasonable part for any sensible person to start from and to take, I disagree with your conclusions on “muguness” and “spiritual retardation” for the reason that humans have limited perceptions in these matters. People believe that failure to do all sorts of things will ruin their lives and do all sorts of things to be blessed. Going by your views just about everyone is spiritually retarded and mugu, no? All men are spiritually developing. To class those who adhere to specific doctrines such as believing that not tithing can ruin them as "spiritually retarded" was absent-minded on your part.

Please refer to my first submission on this thread: I SAID -

If a man allows himself to be fleeced by a tithe-mongering-pastor, that is his kettle of fish: he remains the mugu - and he certainly has a right to be a mugu as far as his religion is concerned.

We are all mugus for one thing or the other, afterall.

Thus it is clearly conceded that we all have our foibles. Is this however any justification for a failure to point out our inanities to one another?

That we all have our achilles heels is NO reason not to point them out in each other. I have many flaws myself. I am not averse to having them pointed out. It will be a cold day in hell before you get me to believe that there is anything wrong in pointing out st.upid behaviour for what it is.

People believe all sorts of things. Some beliefs are id.iotic. Political correctness is not my strongest suit and I certainly will state that which I BELIEVE to be st.upid.

A belief that your life will be ruined if you do not pay a tithe is ST.UPID. When i use the words "spiritually retarded" - I do not speak arrogantly: and i choose my words advisedly - for the notion itself contains a lamentable misconception of what the spiritual man is: and the essence of spirituality. It seeks, as it were, to monetize spirituality: and that is nothing if not symptomatic of retardation in that respect. This is comparable to the belief in the middle ages that forgiveness of sins could be obtained by purchasing indulgences (writs of forgiveness) from the Pope. I wonder what words you might use to describe that belief. Perhaps you will choose to be politically correct and remain silent on it. The truth however, is that it was the most muguistic belief ever - and holding such a belief is clear evidence that such a person's spiritual development is at ground zero.

I do not apologize for this statement and I am not inclined to deny you your entitlement to view my statement which ever way rocks your boat.

I feel that much of what you have written is correct but not apt: to wit - not relevant to the point I am trying to emphasize.

In my first post on this thread I talked about Mugus.

The personal responsibility that I refer to is thus responsibility for your being deceived. If you are have been a tither and the scales one day fall from your eyes, you look around for a person to blame. I insist that the person to blame is yourself. Doubtless the "Pastor" has done wrong and will have his own Karma. But if you seek a focal point of responsibility for your wrong perceptions or wasted tithes, that focal point is doubtless you. And it amounts to nothing but cowardice to attempt to evade that responsibility.

As I stated before, there is no human being who falls into such traps save by his personal choice. No body is forced to tithe. If you are so shallow as to imagine that failure to tithe will ruin your life, that is nothing but a reflection of YOUR spiritual and possible mental retardation.

I really cannot say much on this beyond what Jesoul elegantly stated: the age old wisdom that no person can make you feel inferior without your co-operation. That positively applies here. It is absurd to call your self a christian and yet be unable to study the scriptures for yourself. Pointing at your theiving pastor is as pathetic as saying "the devil made me do it." What the heck is the essence of free will ? ? ? ? ? ?

So please understand: I speak about responsibility for being deceived. I do not envisage that a tither will be punished for tithing as you have suggested. That is way off the mark. But if he seeks a person to blame for his meaningless tithing, he should start with himself. He should ask why he was taken in by the scam when others weren't.

I state to you that this is the path of champions. The Champion starts with himself and takes responsibity for his life. Any thing short of this is contemptible and pathetic cowardice.

^^^ To the extent that we all emanate from the radiations of God, there is LIFE within us as God has permitted. In this regard a small spark of divinity (LIFE) may well be said to be within us all. For God is LIFE and he has bequethed this gift to us all.