₦airaland Forum

^^^ Or Rossike.

Your comments are in order, Tudor. Frankly these are musing thoughts only. I can prove nothing. I wonder. . .i just wonder. . .that's all.

What say ye to this -

considering the vast differences in human lives, all spirits cannot disengage from this life into the same state. There will be many different states, and i see no reason to exclude the existence of a state of limbo, or a state of purgation. Do you?

[quote author=jesus. link=topic=467743.msg6282476#msg6282476 date=1277487164]No sir that have almost the same view and defend islam same way, same long posts, same way they talk about America bla bla bla[/quote]Well who knows. . .you may be right. . .

I see you have added my name to the heaven list in the other thread.

Now that's a huge relief!

When i was in university i spent so much time boozing and playing truant that none of my friends believed i would graduate without an extra. To the surprise of most (and consternation of some) i did.

Now i am much older and none of my friends believe i will go to "heaven." I hope i can surprise them again.

Amen! I don make list finally!

*singing* he's a miracle working God. . .

If you will do a forensic examination of the consistency of repeated phraseology, quality of diction and other empirical factors, you will conclude that Nopuqueater although espousing the same Islamic views as Pa Olabowale - is (sorry to say this, Pa) - significantly more elegant in his writing and much better constructed in his posers and arguments. I may be wrong, but i sincerely doubt that they are the same person.

davidylan:
nah, Telly B was male VERY MALE and he wrote very differently from Pilgrim. If i remember quite clearly, Telly B and pilgrim were on here about the same period.

There are a lot of other folks that were similar to pilgrim too but it doesnt mean she's the same person.

You will be astounded.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=467743.msg6282299#msg6282299 date=1277485254]I'm off to create my schitzo buddies. . . And i bet y'all will NEVER find out.[/quote]Don't create it right away o. . .remember the date of the death of mavenbox and the date of the rise of Inesqor were exactly the same and formed part of the evidence marshalled against that one until he/she/it confessed.

What is comical is the way they spend a long time vigorously denying it before coming out with the truth.

^^^ No Sir - I DO NOT! You know very well i have consistently denounced the multiple i.d game.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=467743.msg6282299#msg6282299 date=1277485254]I'm off to create my schitzo buddies. . . And i bet y'all will NEVER find out.[/quote]Now here is the interesting bit: i would imagine that if i were to have a second I.D, i would go out of my way to render the style so devastatingly disimilar that the scam would NEVER be sniffed out just like you say. I wonder why these chaps can't do that? Well, like they say, maybe its the Big Brother House effect: you start off pretending but gradually you are worn down by time and your true colours show up!

If i had another user ID, he would be a fire-belching christian fanatic posting cartoons and insisting on the divinity of christ. He would also be an apostle of the "touch not my anointed" school of thought, and a rabid defender of tithing. That way no one would EVER imagine it to be me!

JeSoul:
^lol.
DS, you and Viaro used to be such good buddies in the begining. What happened? two intellects so massive that they can't occupy the same space?

Are you kidding me? The chap remains one of my all-time favaourite posters. He can be frustrating though. But i guess alot of people will say the same (or worse) of me.

In truth i suppose he could not stand me any more on account of my anti-christian dogma activism. He was visibly embitterred and irritated by this. Sometimes i feel that perhaps i was too irascible on the subject. It remains difficult for me to understand perspectives such as that proffered by the presumed divinity of christ, or viaro's inferences to the effect that God dwells in spiritual heavens in a physical body. These sorts of things tend to strip me of the deepest vestiges of the gentility i love to cultivate.

Having said that: do not be mistaken, the chap is an asset to this forum, and i would imagine a great asset to whatever environment he works in as he is unimaginably thorough, painstaking and scholarly.

JeSoul:
Where's Viaro to come answer to these allegations?

^^^ Such petty matters as this are beneath his imperial multifaceted highness. I do not expect him to contribute.

^^^ Telly B is even the most structured. Take the time to go through the links I provided for the "lazy."

Closer examination further reveals  -

  1. A predilection towards the specific use of particular descriptive terms

  2. A perfect and humanly impossible uniformity of views amongst all three. Of particular interest is their perfectly singular stand on tithing, as well as a scholarly deconstruction of Islam.

^^^ Brilliant as always. Accepted.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=463682.msg6280976#msg6280976 date=1277472038]Hi Deepsight and Sarmy. My view is that the above statements are not entirely correct. God is the creator, not because he created creations but because the living ability to create is in God. Whether or not, this ability to create is expressed (creations) or unexpressed (no creations) have no bearing to the ability to create. The ability to create is not the same thing with the expression of the creative ability that is in God. Thus God is the creator whether or not he expresses his creative ability. Since the creative ability is in God, it is also irrelevant whether his creatures percieves his existence or not. A crude analogy may suffice. Daylight did not exist because the eyes and the visual cortex can percieve it rather it exists because of the sun and its effect on the blue planet. Thus if one suddenly regains his sight and sees daylight for the first time, it does not mean that there was no daylight all the time that he is blind. Similarly if one is to go blind and cannot percieve daylight, then daylight did not cease on the day he has gone blind. This claim that all are God and God is  all is wrong in my view. People are confusing the sun and its rays. I challenge anybody who says he is a God to give me a step by step insight/DESCRIPTION on the origin and evolution of our physical universe, not to mention, the spirtitual and the divine worlds. Stay blessed.[/quote]Hi M_Nwankwo.

Would you describe a person who has the ability to paint but has never painted at all as an artist?

Would you describe me as an engineer merely because the ability to study and apply engineering resides in me?

Jenwitemi:
Sarmy is very perceptive.

Please do not attempt tpo hide behind the perceptiveness of Sarmy. Fact is that NOWHERE has Sarmy stated that God would not exist without created beings. NOWHERE. Similarly NOWHERE has Sarmy stated that the created create the creator. NOWHERE. Sarmy makes a careful and apt distinction - he understands that the title "creator" and the title "husband' - are titles that issue from an act of creating or an act of marriage. Such acts would not be possible if the Deity did not already exist to do the act, or the man already exist to enter into the marraige.

You are confused by very simple terminology.

Finally I am certain that Sarmy would not subscribe to the frankly illiterate view that planets in the solar system or the andromeda galaxy came into existence only when men invented telescopes.

Mr. Jenwitemi got it wrong because he expressly and repeatedly stated that without the recognition of God by created beings, then God does not exist. That is wrong because -

  1.If the creator DID create the created: that would remain true REGARDLESS of whether the created beings know of or recognise their creator. For crying out loud, this is so bleeding obvious as it is the case with animals - they do not regognise the concept of a transcendental creator, do they? Now would this in any way vitiate the creator's existence? It would not. So why would the non-recognition of the creator by sentient beings vitiate the creator's existence? Recall that Mr. Jenwitemi was so intrepid as to make the frankly comical assertion that the Solar System did not exist until humans began to observe it. Justify that.

  2. Being a creator is differnet from existing as a deity or spirit being. Just as surely as being a husband is different from existing as a man. I am not married: and yet i exist, do i not? ? ?

Not that God does not exist without His creation but that He can not be referred to as such CREATOR without His concious creation

Inserted in red above: is an adjustment i believe reflects more correctly the truth.

@ VALIDATOR - Brilliant! Excellente! Magnifique! I could not have said it better. I have been struggling with the right words to convey my meaning.

I strongly believe in the uniformity of nature: i do not beleive that its is possible for a pure illogicality to exist - some things only seem to be illogical because knowledge from the observer is deficient. Accordingly if one does have the necessary knowledge of the laws of nature it would be possible to manipulate such things as thought-forms and other ethereal substances into deriving desired realities.

Rather it is faith in the uniformity of nature that allows you to manipulate nature to obtain your desired result

Let me agree again with this and add that this is simply what is done by so-called witches and wizards - application of natural laws to obtain desired ends. Nothing wrong with that in itself. Only question would be to what ends the purposes are applied.

O, Pilgrim.1 IS very much around: its an open secret.

I have also found that aside from the current reincarnation - which everyone knows, there have been past incarnations of this person as well.

See this link -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=467743.msg6268044#msg6268044

A fine gentleman called Telly B.

Pilgrim must be one of a set of triplets. Or suffering from a multiple-personality disorder.

Dear Sarmy, I do not know whether you and Mr. Jenwitemi are on the same page.

If i do not marry a woman, i am not a husband.

That does not mean that if i do not marry a woman then i do not exist.

Two different things. I sense you recognise this simple distinction, but Mr. Jenwitemi simply doesn't get it.

I had tried to explain it earlier -

Deep Sight:
Jenwitemi's illogical fantasies again?

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In other words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator. It is not what makes him EXIST ab-initio.

The fact of God's being a creator is ALTOGETHER different from HIS EXISTENCE - his existence NOT contingent on whether he creates anything or not.

So for example if YOU create works of art you are an artist. This does not mean that if you do not create works of art then you do not exist. That would be a ludicruous line of thinking. Its that simple.

Thank you for that brilliant question. Would you not say that they can be viewed as the same thing? Are they not interelated? Can the one not give rise to the other?

^^^ Breaking eggs on people's heads to rid them of demons, for one.

noetic16:
is there anyone on this forum more dogmatic than you? when people subscribe to your delusive views, u consider them "brilliant" and "intelligent". but when they dont, u consider them of no intellect. . . .DS when did u loose your well acclaimed objectivity?

No Noetic, that is not true, we need to set the record straight.

 1. Pastor does not agree with most of my views: he has consistently argued against much of my propositions.

 2. I do not agree with your views: yet i consider you one of the greatest gifts that this forum has as far as intellect goes. I have said this repeatedly.

 3. I regard Pastor's mind as broad because it simply is: he is not boxed in by any worldview: and he shows staggering depth of mind and character.

A sure candidate for heaven, i would think.

[quote author=jesus. link=topic=468443.msg6276056#msg6276056 date=1277401180]Pastor AIO should convince us more that hes really a christian. I recently clicked on his latest posts and found some incredible posts that makes me doubt his true status. Talking about IFA on a thread

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-207887.0.html[/quote]^^^ What is wrong with Ifa?

^^^ O c'mon, its obvious why he does that. The vast expanse of your mind cannot be accepted as that of a Pastor, since the Pastors are so numbingly limited, and you have shown yourself to be brilliantly limitless.

^^^ Yeah, really you have said it all: that is just the unfortunate reality.

I guess that's why those who are able to put aside the ME factor and make sacrifices for other people are so venerated.

Mandela, for example. But are heroes like him really so rare. Perhaps, but do spare a thought for the millions of soldiers througghout history that die fighting to defend their country men and women? Whilst it might be said for example that soldiers fighting for Nazi Germany may have been fighting a wrong or evil cause (many of them were coerced: the bodies, heads and limbs of deserters from the army were hung along roads that the armies marched on to deter would-be deserters) - the many more millions of soldiers that fought against the nazi regime did so in gallant sacrifice and truly praise-worthy human heroism.

banom:
tpia in haven ? count me out, i prefer hell.

I thought you were born again.

nuclearboy:
@DeepSight:

I thought you were "infinity" bound! Thought the FX50 would be fitting

No human spirit can apprehend infinity or eternity. Eternity is quite simply beyond us and can only be dealt with by Eternity itself: which is God.

For human spirits i believe that eternity will consist of an eternal succession of finite lifetimes. The state of the inner being will naturally determine what world, what plane, what dimension if you like, such lifetimes will be spent on.

Hi Nuclear.

First i need to make clear that as is patently obvious, i did not come up with these ideas myself. They are centuries old. So please so not attribute them to me.

I would be interested in a discourse on the biblical and quoranic perspectives and I believe that some revelations might surprise you. In terms of the biblical and quoranic perspectives, i do simply wish a healthy productive discussion: you know very well that i do not in any event subscribe to either religion.

In terms of rationality - let me ask you a few questions -

  1. Are there any human beings that are perfect

  2. If there are none, then it would make sense to suppose that barring grace - none can be so pure or perfect as to dwell in full holiness

  3. Given this, is there not a place for atonement. . .could that not be a basis for the concept of purgatory?

You do know that I believe in re-incarnation. "Heaven," "Hell," and "purgatory" for me could well represent a reincarnated lifetime in better, worse, or equal terms as the former lifetime. Just my thoughts though. But i believe that there is no other way that eternity can be apprehended as conscious life by human spirits - save through an eternal succession of finite lifetimes - because infinity itself or eternity itself - i conceive of as something that will render human spiritual consciousness a void of empty meaninglessness which we cannot ever grasp. We are not equipped for that. Only God, or gods may be able to deal with that at a conscious level. I don't know if i properly convery my meaning.
 
What happens to infants in your worldview? Infants who die? They are not old enough to apprehend the gospel of your christ - much less accept it. Some catholic theologians have placed such beings in the state called "Limbo." I do not know about that. But it seems gravely clear and rational to me that considering the vast differences in human lives, all spirits cannot disengage from this life into the same state. There will be many different states, and i see no reason to exclude the existence of a state of limbo, or a state of purgation. Do you?

Sometimes I wonder how God sees us, human beings. We're not nice things. We're not good things.

Despite all the horror that mankind has unleashed on his fellowman, i still believe very much in the essential goodness and common conscience of the human spirit.

If you assemble any group of ten people randomly picked from any part of the world and present them with actions of varying goodness or evil, the majority will consistently point out evil to be evil and good to be good.

A great deal of ill may be said about humankind: but there is still a great deal of beauty and love and kindness amongst men.

Hell, maybe i'm just a naive optimist, but i strongly believe it.

Following on the foregoing.

If we work with the thinking that thoughts do carry magnetic vibrations, we can equally infer that such magnetism would be a medium through which people are attracted or repulsed from other people, places or situations.

What this means is that whereas a person's specific location, interactions and situation at a particular point in time may appear to be a matter of coincidence: the truth may well be that these factors are all determined by magnetic vibrations proceeding from the nature of the thought-forms of the individual concerned.

Let us take a small example. A man has been obsessed with thoughts of armed-robbery for a long period of time. Perhaps he is desperate and requires some means of sustenance for his family urgently. His every waking thought revolves about thoughts of robbery to provide for himself. Now he has not in fact commited the robbery but has only been thinking about it.

This same man takes a walk down his street one evening to have a beer. At the bar that he enters, unknown to him, he happens to sit beside a group of young men who are active robbers and are planning a robbery. Now is his presence in that bar right beside a group of robbers a coincidence: or have his thought forms within the ethereal plane made magnetic connection with the similar thought forms of those young men and led him closer to them?

Now let us take the construct a little further. The police barge into the bar to apprehend the group of robbers based on an anonymous tip-off. In the cross-fire that ensues, our innocent man who has committed no robbery is shot and dies.

1. He had not commited a robbery

2. He had been obsessed with thoughts of robbery

3. The magnetic vibrations of his thoughts have led him into a situation of consequences for robbery.

It seems to me that even without committing an act, a person can envelope himself with the aura of the act by dwelling on such acts and obsessing on them such that the spiritual environment around him mirrors that of those who actually engage in such acts. It thus follows that he will bear the consequances of such acts almost as though he had done them. I suspect that this is what Jesus was alluding to when he stated that the mere thought of/ dwelling on a sin may be analougous to committing the sin.

In this way thoughts can lead a man into the reality contained in such thoughts - even when the man has done nothing in that regard.

Purgatory is the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment[1] in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for Heaven

Intermediate State: In Christian eschatology, the intermediate state or interim state refers to a person's existence between one's death and resurrection. This period is "intermediate" between death and the last judgment.

Limbo: In Catholic theology, Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the "edge" of Hell) is a speculative idea about the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned. Limbo is not an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church or any other. Medieval theologians described the underworld ("hell", "hades", "infernum" as divided into four distinct parts: hell of the damned (which some call gehenna), purgatory, limbo of the fathers, and limbo of infants.

(Source: Wiki)

1. Are these concepts identifiable within the biblical worldview?

2. The reference within the Quoran to a temporary taste of hell for all men – could this be a reference to purgatory?

3. Entirely aside from the biblical or quoranic perspectives are the concepts of purgatory, limbo, an intermediate state, and such others not reasonable concepts that can be rationally inferred as being real and apt in the context of an immortal soul?