₦airaland Forum

Babinski:
The Bible was written by men under divine inspiration. It does not rule out the fact that men are limited by their vocabulary and also try at times to reason out things that invariably appear in their accounts. In 1 Chronicles 21 account of the same event, verse 1 stated that Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

However 2 Samuel 24 stated that it was God that incited David because of the belief that nothing happened without the permission of God. But in the end we find out that David had a motive for the census and even Joab was against it because he knew it was not right. So just like when Eve was tricked by the serpent but had motive for eating the apple, the sin accrued to the sinner.

It is common to blame Satan for every sinful idea, just as Chronicles blamed Satan, but the sinner typically has his own independent reasons for committing the sin and that is why he has no excuse on judgment. It is a plus to David that when he saw the results of his action, he owned up and admitted he sinned rather than blame Satan, much less God for any incitement.

If David, who was in the thick of it admitted he sinned and did nit blame God, why are you trying to do so centuries later on reading the account?

+
1. What was that motive of David
2. If he had a motive then why is it said that God instigated him
3. If David committed the sin, why kill 70, 000 innocents who knew nothing about it?

EKONGKING:
They are hiding the true human cost both in USA and Israel.

The liar in chief told everyone who is willing to believe in hospital lies that airpower and navy is destroyed but u see the first confirmed loss of F15 in action and goddam strait is not open still now .

+
Consistently. I dont know why people are blind to this obvious fact.

Dtruthspeaker:
That is what it means to punish a person or people. The punisher gets to decide how, when and what mode of punishment he will deliver.

He can send His arnies, He can send diseases. He can send water and He can send enemies. He can send friends and He can make you make a mistake. All are within His Rights of Punishment.

+
Its not only punishment here. He instigates the act he punishes.

tctrills:
Is it weird? Yes, the story is just like a few others in the bible. We don't know God's reason for all His actions but accusing the creator of life of murder is just crazy.
Hope you know that God will ultimately take all life. Death is a part of His plan.

In the case of David, I don't know the reasons of His actions.

But honestly, I think it is ok not to understand everything about God.

I will do some more learning and get back to you if I have a better explanation.

+
Thanks very much.

I am looking into this too.

Someone has offered an explanation through Exodus 30:11 - 16 but its still not adding up for me because as I said to him -

DeepSight:
+
Two issues here. In Exodus, God is rescuing the Israelites from Egypt and that is why he supposedly says when you count them, each is to pay the lord "a ransom for his life."

So we can see that the context was specific and different.

But even if it wasn't the second question remains: why does God instigate the census only to murder the people en mass for what he instigated?

Babinski:
The challenge for you is that you call God a God of Justice where the justice is defined from your own point of view. However, if you take it that God is indeed the Almighty God whose attributes include justice, mercy and omniscience, then you realize that anything God does is justice and the basis for your grievance collapses.

Even if humans were to attempt to sit as Appelate Judges over the matter, they do not have enough facts and knowledge to review the matter because none of them is even near omniscience.

The anger of the Lord was already burning and was both the basis for instigating the census and the resulting punishment.

+
So if the anger of the Lord was already burning against them, presumably that must be for a wrong they did. Why did he have to instigate another thing himself then punish them for it?

HeatSeeker:
MTBB

@Deepsight

The census was a violation of the commandments give to the Israelites wild in the wilderness. David simply went against Yahweh's instructions and the people suffered the consequences. You can check the bible verse below for more details.

Exodus 30:11-16

+
Two issues here. In Exodus, God is rescuing the Israelites from Egypt and that is why he supposedly says when you count them, each is to pay the lord "a ransom for his life."

So we can see that the context was specific and different.

But even if it wasn't the second question remains: why does God instigate the census only to murder the people en mass for what he instigated?

MaxInDHouse:
OK so you don't want people to know the truth shey?😟

But why do you guys like asking when you don't want to be enlightened?🤔

+
Don't be silly. I asked. You made a comment that answered nothing. I said so. And then you said it's not meant for me.

Babinski:
Where a man kills another allegedly for God's sake, it raises several questions and such a man may be convicted for murder.

However, when God kills a man, on what basis would you question God as the creator of man? If a farmer who did not create a Hen takes one from his backyard, kills and prepares it for a meal, what Court to we take the farmer ro or what crime do we accuse him of? Of course in these days you may see misguided animal rights people that may even attack such a farmer, and other hen would call the farmer a murderer.

However, if the giver of life takes life, no one can question or accuse him. It is God that gives meaning and purpose to our lives. As the creator, God has absolute rights and power over our lives.

Of course as a hen in animal farm, you may concort your own reason for existence and even believe it as if you are sufficient unto yourself and of some importance.

+
This argument could work if the so called God of Justice just took the lives simpliciter without giving reasons.

But in this case he makes clear that it is a punishment for a census. A census which he himself instigated!

How does that make sense for a God of Justice?

MaxInDHouse:
I was talking to interested individuals who may like to know why God killed the Israelites due to the blunder of their king.
So if you don't understand don't worry others will!🙂

+
Leave this thread at once.

Jilo83:
Some of you don't know that Christianity is quite different from Judaism.
Abraham, Isaac,. Jacob, Moses etc practiced Judaism and were repotted in the Bible.
Jesus is the Author of new covenant. Whatever error you find in old testament has been corrected in new testament.
Love
Life
And peace

+
Is it not worrisome that this is still the same God of the Bible acting this way. Is he not supposed to be the same yesterday, today and forever?

MaxInDHouse:
When God formed that nation (Israel) He didn't appoint a king to rule over them because imperfect humans could be lured into doing bad things so God chose a highpriest to lead His people in worship and a judge to lead them when it's time for judgment.

The Israelites later demanded for a king in the days of Samuel the Highpriest and prophet of God. 1Samuel 8:5
Samuel tried to right the wrong by warning them against that decision but the people insisted on having a human king instead of the arrangement of God. 1Samuel 8:10-18

So when God chose David to rule over His people it doesn't mean David was a perfect king rather to an extent humanly possible David is the best out of all imperfect humans who could rule over them.
Satan incited David against God will {1Chronicles 21:1} that is why the people (who asked for a human king) died through the hands of angels who were enforcing God's judicial decisions!

+
You haven't said anything

tctrills:
Didn't you understand the chapter? What explanation are you seeking? I guess you are not seeking an explanation but you are asking us to justify God's actions right?

Well God is the giver and taker of life so if every time He takes a life, you accuse Him of murder, I really don't know what to tell you.
We are about 8 billion people on earth, we all would die one day, so you can go ahead and accuse God of their murder.

But then, let me ask you, if you created anything for yourself, and you destroy it, can any court find you guilty?
If no, why do you think God is guilty of a crime?

Kukutente23:
Simpliciti Simplicita
But I guess DeepSight has been dulled by hate for God and may not get the simple logic here

+
What's wrong with a census. And notice just like with Pharaoh it's Yahweh who goes about putting the idea into David's mind in the first place before punishing him for it.
Isn't it weird that he slaughters 70, 000 innocent people for this?

Who can explain the murderous callousness here?

2 Samuel 24

1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”

3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.

9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the Lord had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’”

13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.”

Tctrills, Kukutente23, TV01, SirTee15, FreeIgboho, Gabrielshow24, ono, femi4, explain.

Putindbutt:
US/Isreal are the real terrorists. After all, they created Al qaeda & Isis.

Most of Iran's strikes are retaliatory. The terrorist US/Isreal started off the war by hitting a female school where 167 young girls were murdered. Then they hit Iran's hospital, energy sites, companies, oil field, residential buildings and now universities.

How can you be attacking schools, universities?, how?. I now see why Nentayahu has been so bold in carrying out genocide in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria etc. and US keeping quiet. If US could also be committing genocide against civilians in the name of war.. Therefore both the US and Isreal are birds of a feather.

I completely support Iran to carry out aggressive retaliatory attacks against all US assets in the neighbouring countries, shoot everything down.

You have to do more than shooting down their pilots and fighter jets.

+
It amazes me how you are so rational on this matter but so irrational on Nigerian affairs.

DeepSight:
+
In the first two paragraphs he does use words that communicate he believes things Muslims don't believe. He calls it a holy and sacred day and talks about the power of rebirth significant to Easter, etc. All of this is against Islamic teaching.

Nonetheless as I said I like the man and that is a warm and inclusive way to relate with diversity.

+
You know what cococandy. Nothing to complain about at all. In fact on consideration, that Easter message may be more well crafted than it appears.

I say this because even with the Islamic view, the period would signify certain things such as escape from death.

cococandy:
He actually doesn’t have to believe it to say it.

Sometimes you meet people where they are because that’s how best to relate to them.

I believe in NOTHING the Quran teaches but if I’m a leader who has Muslims in my community , it wouldn’t make me two-faced to address their religious celebrations the way they see it.

There’s nothing in his speech that says he personally believe Jesus was killed. He merely acknowledges that it is what Christians are celebrating

+
In the first two paragraphs he does use words that communicate he believes things Muslims don't believe. He calls it a holy and sacred day and talks about the power of rebirth significant to Easter, etc. All of this is against Islamic teaching.

Nonetheless as I said I like the man and that is a warm and inclusive way to relate with diversity.

Vision101:
So Buhari was not in power then? You seem not to understand the point.

+
He was so that's why the centre still held.

cococandy:
Wow, now is a good time to point out that Mamdani is a Muslim. Generally, Muslims do not celebrate Easter.
Yet, Mamdani acknowledges and celebrates the holy days of Christians. This is what fostering inclusivity and respectful recognition look like.

+
Two ways to view this. On one hand, it could show how broad minded he is considering that Muslims do not believe that Jesus was killed at all, not to speak of being resurrected. On the other hand, it could show him as simply a two faced politician for saying what he does not believe in.

I like the man regardless and such warm statements are beneficial to the world.

lagonovo:
That's my reason. US dominated a more defined world with fully formed nations. The dominance is further underlined by a diverse immigrant population which is overwhelmingly the highest in the world dwarfing the combined total of the next 4 nations at the top.

+
Well, I just think there should be other criteria.

lagonovo:
Dude, US dominated when most nations were already fully formed and defined, and the influence covered the entire world.

+
The word is "ever." So is it the greatest country in history? I say no.
If you say yea, what exactly are your reasons?

Kukutente23:
Shows I'm not the only one trying to put you out of your arrogant ignorance

I'm good. How are you doing too? I see you've been pestering zombies in a less forgiving manner than ever before

+
How dare you call me arrogant, I am a most humble man, get down on you knees at once!

Realinfogeneral:
Mightiness refers to the quality of possessing great power, physical strength, authority, or grandeur. It often describes immense capacity, such as in "the mightiness of God's creation" or a, "mightiness of King Lear's rage". It is frequently used in literary contexts to denote supreme power or magnitude.

+
See the bold in my explanation below.

DeepSight:
_
As I explained -

+
I still dislike it. Sounds like saying "strengthness." There is a tautology inherent in that.

Anyone who has a real understanding of English will understand what I am saying.

The quality of being strong is called strength. You don't need to add "Ness" to it. The quality of being mighty is called might. You don't need to add anything to it.

At best it is an archaic usage that can only be found in drama or some poetry with poetic license.

Mightiness is not current proper usage but anyone can write what they like.

I sha advise you not to use it in civilised or polished company. They will snigger at you.

Kukutente23:
Are you the moderator of what is civilised and what isn't now
And what makes you so sure ill get sniggered at
You're the only one on NL who seems to have a problem with the use so far
Are you saying you're the only civilised/polished person here? That's arrogance

+
Nah. BTW that was a response I wrote to someone else not you.

Anyway it's a trivial matter.

How bodi. I miss our contentions.

Looks like they will never let a Christian day of Celebration go without blood.

Vision101:
Can you remember that Buhari even as president had problems in APC and the national Assembly. Remember the Senate issues. Why is the same APC well managed now free from major rancour and attracting more people?

+
When a party is in power it is easier to control because there is someone at the top in the person of the president who has all financial and coercive tools of state

Raumdeuter, another "random" strike?

Kukutente23:
So why attempt to force your personal dislike on others
That's fascist

_
As I explained -

+
I still dislike it. Sounds like saying "strengthness." There is a tautology inherent in that.

Anyone who has a real understanding of English will understand what I am saying.

The quality of being strong is called strength. You don't need to add "Ness" to it. The quality of being mighty is called might. You don't need to add anything to it.

At best it is an archaic usage that can only be found in drama or some poetry with poetic license.

Mightiness is not current proper usage but anyone can write what they like.

I sha advise you not to use it in civilised or polished company. They will snigger at you.

TV01:
Deepsight here's your weekend portion

You claim that Christians rejecting slavery is evolution. A "moral evolution" that takes them away from the "slavery" you insist the bible endorses. Fine, let's work with that. If this moral evolution as you term it took place, it was either as a result of their faith or their culture - and all that entails - which led to the subsequent civilisational progress.

Could you please show evidence of that same "moral evolution" in moose.slim countries or jurisdictions - slavery is clearly embedded in their texts and they only "legally" ceased trading under threat of war - as recently as 1960 or thereabouts (you can still buy black people in those parts).

+
I quote my words to ono -

It is a pity that there is much that is very backward about this religion. And more so since it once experienced a golden age when it was the leading light of much advanced thought in the world.

Sadly it has been unable to shake off the tendency towards misogyny/ gender apartheid as well as a very violent streak which is taken straight from the pages of its scripture. The insistence on dictating what women wear in many Islamic countries, and the fact that in a place like Saudi Arabia until very very recently they were even denied the right to drive, is very telling. Many women in these theocratic places cannot even travel or move at all without permission from a male, what is that?

Beyond that look at the application of Shariah law in Northern Nigeria. It has been used to lock up several non Muslims for years - for alleged blasphemy in a supposedly secular country with constitutional freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, conscience and religion? Look at the gruesome murder of Deborah, a Christian student in Northern Nigeria by a Muslim mob. Those who did it were on camera and they went scot free, even the governor justified it.

The truth is that this religion has an explicit creeping doctrine in which it seeks the total subjugation of the world to Islamic tenets. And in this they are specifically guided to appear moderate and gentle when in the minority but to become belligerent when in the majority. This is where the practice of Taqiyya often comes in. Telling lies to defend oneself and to defend Islam when in a weak position. But once they are in the majority, no one can truly be safe in terms of the rights we understand to be standard in the modern world.

Look at the practice of honor killing for example. What can we say of that.

There is too much that Islam has not evolved past and frankly it is still dwelling in the medieval world.

And lest I be accused of singling out moose.slims, please show where\when\how this moral evolution took place in your country? Where and when amongst the cultures or religions was it changed? I stand to be corrected, but there is nothing I can find?

Surely this ME would also encompass human sacrifice, blood offerings, money rituals etc. All of which are still rampant. Or, are they not as bad as slavery, which also still is.

+
Such evil exists on the fringes of society, and is criminalized by law and is not to be compared to that which was orthodox and legal such as slavery in its time - not just legal but defended morally by scripture.

Or perhaps you are just claiming the countries\nations\peples whith historic Judeo-Christian backgrounds are better . I an't callin' nobody "House N" or "Uncle R", just saying

TV

+
Nonsense.
As history shows, Judeo-Christian background didnt lead to freedom or egalitarian societies.
Gradual moral evolution through rebellions, wars did - and the efforts during the age of enlightenment / the renaissance, were key

Biodun1929:
They will definitely make a Hollywood movie about this. Behind Enemy Lines 2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUeWBp_kmuo&t=4s

+
That occured to me instantly.
E too sure.

I am sure they are working in the screenplay already.

Nwaikpe:
But e sweet say you got the message!

+
I still dislike it. Sounds like saying "strengthness." There is a tautology inherent in that.

Anyone who has a real understanding of English will understand what I am saying.

The quality of being strong is called strength. You don't need to add "Ness" to it. The quality of being mighty is called might. You don't need to add anything to it.

At best it is an archaic usage that can only be found in drama or some poetry with poetic license.

Mightiness is not current proper usage but anyone can write what they like.

I sha advise you not to use it in civilised or polished company. They will snigger at you.