₦airaland Forum

JMAN05,

"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" Isa. 45:5

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:11.

Who is speaking in these two verses? GOD The Father or Jesus Christ?

Cc: BIBLESPEAKS, truthislight et al.

truthislight:
Where did I speculate ? Are humans not promised Eternal life? Are humans not promised everlasting life? does that implies that humans had always existed?

So, Jesus being called Eternal father or Everlasting father does not mean he has always existed.

There is a difference between Eternal and eternity in the Bible.

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, ... out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2.

Does the Bible agree with you?

truthislight:
I will not preach falsehood, there will be no reward for such.

What is falsehood?

PastorAIO:
What has scientific method got to do with the fact of evolution. You neither know what Evolution is, nor do you know what the scientific method is.

The Scientific method is a means of testing Hypotheses.

Tell me, what is Evolution?

PastorAIO:
It seems you still don't understand my point. When you ask 'How', you are asking for a theory as to how it happened.

The fact is that we have gotten here today. The 'how' it happened would require a theory of which there are many. Evolution is not a theory.

If you want to learn about the various theories of Evolution then there is plenty of information online. I am no real expert and furthermore I don't think that this is the forum to give lessons on the theories of evolution.

By the Scientific method, Evolution cannot be a fact, because it has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

A fact is a premise/phenomenon that has been tested and found consistently true in all conditions, the veracity of which cannot be disputed.

How can evolution be a fact when scientists even doubt it?

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2.

The Bible says Jesus' goings forth have been from old, from everlasting.

How then could He have been created?

Cc: indigene.

JMAN05:
My first mention of wisdom is inanimate or abstract, while the second is emphasing that the way wisdom was used in that proverbs 8 shows that the writer has a person in mind.

Prov 8:22 says "the wisdom is created". It will then be wrong to say, the wisdom was brought up with God cos God was not created.

Secondly, the phrase "with him" as written in KJV was inserted. It was not part of the original. Other translations shows that it was ONLY wisdom that was brought up.

You still haven't proven from the Bible that GOD has two types of Wisdom: maybe animate and inanimate.

The Bible says GOD is wise. The Bible also says Jesus is the Wisdom of GOD. (1 Cor. 1:30)

Was the Wisdom of GOD created?

Note that the word "created" does not appear in the Authorized version.

JMAN05,

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." Heb. 7:1-3

The Bible says Melchizedek has no origin nor end of days, just like Jesus Christ.

How then could Jesus Christ have been created?

azimibraun:
Jehova witness I know are cousins to Deeper life people but I am not sure now, are they the same as Sabbath; those guys who worship on Saturday?

No, they are not.

JMAN05:
Wisdom was not created. God has always been wise. However, Prov 8 states that wisdom was created. Since God has always been wise, don't you think that that proverb 8:22 is talking about a spirit person? ("The Lord created and possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old [were accomplished]" according to [i]Amplifier Bible[/I])

If you also consider the context of that scripture and the 1corinthians you quoted above, don't you see reason to believe that Jesus is the wisdom personified spoken of there who was created?

It is worthy of note that the word "created" does not appear in the Authorized version.

The Bible also says The person being talked about in Prov. 8:30 was GOD's delight daily.

You JWs say Prov. 8:30 was talking about Jesus Christ. If there had been a single day when Jesus was not in existence, how could He have been GOD's delight daily?

JMAN05:
Wisdom was not created. God has always been wise. However, Prov 8 states that wisdom was created. Since God has always been wise, don't you think that that proverb 8:22 is talking about a spirit person? ("The Lord created and possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old [were accomplished]" according to [i]Amplifier Bible[/I])

If you also consider the context of that scripture and the 1corinthians you quoted above, don't you see reason to believe that Jesus is the wisdom personified spoken of there who was created?

Are you saying there are two types of Wisdom? If yes, prove it from the Bible.

Also, Prov. 8:30 says "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;"

If the text is talking about Christ, it is clear that He was like one brought up with GOD: if GOD was brought up, then He was brought up with GOD.

How then could Christ be created?

freshcvvs:
How does this answer my question or is this an issue of comprehension?

Who said he or she became a Christian for fear of hell?

Do you know that GOD will hold you responsible if you refuse to tell people about hell and they end up in hell?

"Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand." Ezek. 3:17-18.

The Bible says "And the times of ignorance GOD winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent..." Acts 17:30

Why?

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness..." verse 31.

WARN THE SINNER!

Satan is very terrible, you know.

Rather than have you believe in a Creator who loves you so much and constantly seeks your good, he would have you believe you descended from a worm or a lizard or a toad.

Rather than have you believe you were created for a noble purpose, he would have you believe you are no different from a goat or a sheep.

Rather than have you believe yours is an elevated status, to the Glory of GOD, he would have you believe you have animalistic instincts.

Then, he'll finally convince you that you're wise.

What is a better definition of deceit?

CoolUsername:
I thought I was arguing with a reasonable person. What does this have to do with radiometric dating? You're bringing up a dead and defeated topic. Every logical person who had actually looked into it knows the Great flies for the myth that it is. Nobody fit a pair of the land animals in existence and put them in a boat. It is wishful thinking at best.

I'm truly disappointed that you brought this up.

Trust me, Evolution is a much more laughable myth. Who could be so credulous as to believe he descended from a worm?

Carbon dating is one of the ways "scientists" lie to make themselves look believable. There is nothing primitive about the fossils in the Cambrian, and after the Cambrian, no fossils!

How did they know what happened 3.5 billion years ago? What fossils did they study?

They say they descended from a worm: did they see that worm? Or are they speculating in the name of science?

PastorAIO:
people like to get so confused.

There is a difference between Evolution on the one hand, and Darwin's Theory of Evolution by natural Selection on the other hand.

Evolution is a FACT!!

Darwin's theory to explain the fact of Evolution is open to debate and can possibly be disproven.

It's like Gravity. There is Gravity. That is a fact.
Newton's theory of Gravity however is not a fact but a theory and someone can possibly come up with a better theory to explain the fact of Gravity. Like indeed Einstein did with his Theory of Relativity.

Okay. Teach me Evolution. How did we get here today?

truthislight:
Lol. Can we discuss?

What do you really mean by "Hell is Real"?

What is Hell?

Do you have any plan to teach the bible to people or it is your intention to threaten People to summit?

Are you professing Christianity because of the fear For Hell?

Peace

Why would you not preach the danger of hell?

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of GOD, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Heb. 10:29.

RosaConsidine:
So in essence, there are things God is not in support of but aren't technically sins?

I would say that there are some things happening today that were not in GOD's original plan.

GOD created Adam a vegetarian, but today we eat meat. Eating clean meat is not a sin. However, meat-eating began only after the Flood, and it was not GOD's original plan.

CoolUsername:
Your efforts were a failure though. How do you account for the fossil record and radiometric dating?

The Great Deluge.

Heard about it? GOD destroyed the antediluvian world with water. They became very stubborn and unruly and committed all sorts of inconceiveable atrocity and evil, just like the world is doing today. GOD wiped every living thing away with water, save eight people and some selected animals. The fossils scientists study now, among other things, are remains of the antediluvian world.

The world is in the same condition it was when GOD destroyed it with water. By and by, GOD will destroy this world again: this time with fire!

CoolUsername:
So why were you talking about the Cambrian explosion when it goes against everything the bible says about creation?

I was just trying to debunk evolution with logic. You see, any lie will finally checkmate itself, but truth stands criticism.

CoolUsername:
Did you not read what I wrote about trace fossils of the late Cambrian? It is sad that people take the pains to research and answer your questions when you're not even going to read them.

Anyway, if you believe God created the earth. Was it like the Bible said? Or better still, tell me your theory.

Yes. Just as the Bible relates it. GOD created everything, in His Wisdom.

CoolUsername:
The animals just about to turn into the ones in the Cambrian were probably just classified with the points in the Cambrian. You just said it yourself that there are no clear-cut boundaries so that means that every classification would be fuzzy at the edges, right? It makes it kind of dishonest to ask this question.

Also, there are trace fossils of multicellular organisms before the Cambrian explosion in the late Precambrian. I hope I have satisfied your curiosity.

Now I want to ask you, if not evolution, then what?

Probably classified? Probably? Is that an evidence for evolution? I didn't ask for their classification. I asked for the fossils of the animals just about to turn into those found in the Cambrian: where are they?

GOD created the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them, both seen and unseen.

CoolUsername:
The Cambrian is full of hard bodies animals. Fossilization needs a hard framework in order to mineralize. This factor, along with the metamorphosis of rock. It would be difficult to decipher the origin of the minerals present. Science only works with evidence.

Evolution is a smooth process with no clear-cut boundaries, right? Where are the fossils of the animals just about to turn into those found in the Cambrian?

The Precambrian contains only bacteria and algae: do you jump from bacteria to the animals found in the cambrian in the process of evolution?

raphieMontella:
the site i gave you is there.. and i repeat..evolution is a fact as quatum theory is... Cheers

Says the white man, right?

Coolusername,

The Cambrian is the last stratum of the descending levels that has any fossils in it. All the lower strata below the Cambrian have absolutely no fossil record of life other than some single- celled types such as bacteria and algae. Why not? The Cambrian layer is full of all the major kinds of animals found today except the vertebrates. In other words, there is nothing primitive about the structure of these most ancient fossils known to man. Essentially, they compare with the complexity of current living creatures. But the big question is: Where are their ancestors? Where are all the evolving creatures that should have led up to these highly developed fossils? According to the theory of evolution, the Precambrian strata should be filled with more primitive forms of these Cambrian fossils in the process of evolving upward.

What happened? Where are the fossils in the process of turning into those found in the Cambrian?

CoolUsername:
This Precambrian nonsense again? Soft bodied animals find it incredibly difficult to fossilize. Simple.
The flatworm is a fantastic example. It has over 4,000 species and can be found almost everywhere on land and in water. But guess what? Not one fossil has been found. Why? Because it lacks a solid skeleton.
Going by your logic then, we should say that flatworms popped into existence yesterday.
I'm not here to argue but I don't like the spread of misinformation. Understand what you are arguing against before parroting ready-made arguments against it.

Since no fossils exist of the PreCambrian animals, how did scientists know they existed? Inspiration? Guessing?

raphieMontella:
i hope u know darwin died in 1882?
This is 2016..
Mind you..fossilization is not ABC..

albert einstein was wrong about quantum entanglement...does it make wave matter duality collapse function a lie?

Quantum theory was proven experimentally. It has application today.

Who proved evolution? Is the proof clear and unambigous? Or are they speculations?

CoolUsername:
This Precambrian nonsense again? Soft bodied animals find it incredibly difficult to fossilize. Simple.

The flatworm is a fantastic example. It has over 4,000 species and can be found almost everywhere on land and in water. But guess what? Not one fossil has been found. Why? Because it lacks a solid skeleton.

Going by your logic then, we should say that flatworms popped into existence yesterday.

I'm not here to argue but I don't like the spread of misinformation. Understand what you are arguing against before parroting ready-made arguments against it.

Does Dr. Austin Clark of the US National Museum agree?

"Strange as it may seem ... mollusks were mollusks just as unmistakably as they are now" (The New Evolution: zoogenesis, p.101).

raphieMontella,

Hear G. G. SIMPSON, the crown prince of evolution speak about Natural Selection, the supposed driving force of evolution:

"It might be argued that the theory is quite unsubstantiated and has status only as a speculation" (Major Features, pp. 118, 119).

Eh, Simpson good sir? Speculation you say? Yet you cling tenaciously to it and preach it in the name of science? Are you any different from people who believe Creation?

Hypocrisy?

raphieMontella:
evolution is a fact tho..
here..proofs of evolution

Now let us examine what experts in evolution have to say about it:

DARWIN: "To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system I can give no satisfactory answer ... the case at present must remain inexplicable; and may truly be urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained" (On the Origin of Species, p.309)

Darwin agrees somebody can actually and correctly undo his fairytale.

G.G. Simpson, the "crown prince of evolution: "Search for the cause evolution has been abandoned. It is now clear that evolution has no single cause" (The Geography of Evolution, p.17).

Oh really, Simpson? I thought you understood evolution? Is it now a mystery?

ValentineMary:
There are several hypothesis from abiogenesis to extra terrestrial life. But pre biotic chemistry deals with abiogenesis

Abiogenesis. Sounds like spontaneous generation, no?

cloudgoddess:
How annoying, geez

You beg and beg for him to explain, only to respond with the same defensive trash & ignorance that he explicitly stated would make it a waste of his time. If you're not willing to learn then go sit down somewhere with your comforting creationist apologetics, & stop pretending you actually want to understand evolution when you don't.

No, dear. Nobody understands evolution. Not even the people that came up with the story. They just needed something to believe other than the true Creator. Nobody understands how the earth doesn't bear a single evidence that reptiles once became birds and yet "scientists" teach and preach such.

It's faith, dear. Faith. That same faith they called folly. You see, it takes nothing short of a mammoth-sized faith to believe that you descended from a worm.

When it looked like the farce which is Evolution would be unmasked and seen for the fairytale it was, it laid claim to scientificity. The white men forced it into school curriculums and proclaimed it a scientific fact.

This is not only a sin against education, but a gross transgression of the dictates of noble science. At best, Evolution is only qualified to be a hypothesis. But No! Anything to discredit the Creator.

Then the white men proceeded to tell them that anybody who believed anything other than evolution is brainwashed, deluded, deceived, etc. They told them that Faith in a Creator is not only folly but also gross ignorance.

Pray tell, does it not take much more faith to believe you descended from a worm? Does it not take even much more faith to believe you came into being by chance?

"But no, you are enlightened. Believe us and our evolution story, and you will become wise."

"Yessir!"

"Meanwhile, bear in mind, you are not worshipping any god."

"That's true sir!"

The irony.