₦airaland Forum

, as if all you have believed in your life up till now have been proven and  tested.

Inasmuch as God is interested in soul-winning, he is also interrested in the 'due process'. He is a God of order and He is bringing order to his church which should  be presented as a bride without spot or wrinkle at His appearing.

God is not only concerned about souls. He is also very very concerned about the due procees. This is the reason many preachers will Go to hell for starting churches. Some started churches  because they had some problem where they were before and so left the church to start theirs as if it were a  business. They think it is all about winning souls , but it isnt.

You can't just get up and say, "i worship God in my house". or "I  am starting my own Church" No! you have to be called of God into that ministry office. It is not a business, but a calling. You cannot have a church in your house. However, the church can  meet in your house. Do you understand me?

This is talking of God's Spiritual order and the way he is building His church.

Ono,

The fact that there are false teachers should not be an excuse for you to walk outside of God's way.

Settle down where you attend church now and get involved in God's work.

If you have recieved the Holy Spirit, the existence of false churches or preachers shouldnt be hindrance to you because the same annointing of the Holy Spirit will guide you. If you are used to the truth and have become a part of it, you will know when you see the false.

But if you don't know truth, how can you tell the false?

Nferyn,

Talking about your purple monsters,

If you are realy convinced about their reality, then hold unto it. Dont just talk it; live it, think it, dream it. At least, believe in and stand for something. Not just 'against' something or against some thought, but believe in and stand for something. Influence today's world and its people by your beliefs and corresponding action.

A belief you are ready to die for, a belief worth living for. Then we could look up to you as a success and one that should be a role model for many.

[quote author=choice.A link=topic=261.msg220847#msg220847 date=1140946186]Fascinating. I thought you had no intentions to judge, but forgive me if what you stated above is not a classic example of judging others. Doesn't it say in your own Bible that you should not condemn yourself in the very same things that you allow? (Rom.14:22). So, it's okay for you to condemn others, but sinful for others to disagree with your ideas about your choice of miracle worker?[/quote]Did i call any fake preacher's name? Your insinuations are wrong brother. I am not denying the fact that i have passed judgement. And mine is a  righteous one, based on God's Word and under the incfluence of His Spirit. TB Josuah is a man of God. If he were not, i will say so and tell you why, from God's Word. How do i know Pastor Adeboye is a christian? Because he said so. I do not follow any of them home to know how they live. But from what i see them do and say, i judge with God's Word. I do not say you must agree with me. But if you are  christain, act like one. Judge under the guidaince of God's Word and not 'hearsay'.


[quote author=choice.A link=topic=261.msg220847#msg220847 date=1140946186]It is particularly sad that your ideas are lopsided as regards ministers - whether miracle on non-miracle workers. In the first place, you make it sound as if anyone who doesn't perform miracles is therfore not called of God. That idea is not sustained in the Bible, because John the Baptist (though he was not a pastor in the church) was mightily used of God even though he did not perform a single miracle (John 10:41); and in the church, the apostle Paul taught that not everyone works a miracle because we all have different gifts (I Cor. 12:10,29). The power to work a miracle is given by God to whomsoever He wills - it is not the minister who forces himself to perform miracles.[/quote]That is true of Paul's teaching. But remeber he was writing to the entire church and not just ministers. No minister forces himself to do miracles -correct. In the same vein, no minister should force himself into any of the five-fold ministry office. You do not even desire it. You are called into these offices. I still maintain my stand because this is God's standard: God never sent a man without the necessary signs and credentials. Otherwise, anyone can just wake up and start a church in his parlour to keep the family going.

Talking about John the baptist, was his baptism ordinary? Of course not. It was powerful and a sign given to him from God. Is it ordinary for him to have visions and revelations of the Son of God so that he identified the messiah amongst the many that came to hear him? He was given these gifts and signs from God to help him in his ministry which was unique: to prepare the way for our Lord. He was filled with the Spirit. When he spoke, men's hearts burned within them.

[quote author=choice.A link=topic=261.msg220847#msg220847 date=1140946186]And what would you say about those who perform miracles but whose focus on money is as equally hideous? How long ago was it reported that Benny Hinn was in Nigeria conducting a crusade that flopped on questions of how much money was being collected? (if you've forgotten, you can find the story here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4619733.stm ). I don't care whose ox is gored or whatever big names they represent; the call of God upon a minister does not give him the license to use bad language (as secret_447 did) or use the ministry as a money-making enterprise. There are sound teachers who perform miracles and have a balanced view of money matters; and there are equally sound teachers who do not perform miracles and have godly respect for money matters. True servants of God will not focus on themselves, but rather turn people over to focus on God Himself.[/quote]Hmm, money. So that is the problem hun? Well, crusades are not done to raise money but for the salvatiuon of souls. In that respect, the crusade was a success. The many contoversies that arose were actually baseless false accusations heated and blown up by mostly carnal people who could only see money in such a spiritual event.

[quote author=choice.A link=topic=261.msg220847#msg220847 date=1140946186]Whatever your ideas or convictions, I don't make it my aim to judge TB Joshua (or any other minister) to be this, that or the other. Everyone who has worn the ministerial cloak is answerable to God. However, that does not mean that we should be gullible and swallow everything that is said or done in Jesus' Name. If I know nothing else, I know that my Bible says I should 'prove' (or, test) all things and hold onto that which is good (I Thes. 5:21). My salvation does not rest on what TB Joshua claims to be, or who is defending him. There is only one Name under heaven that saves - Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).[/quote]It shouldnt be your aim to judge him. He is doing what he is called to do , you do yours. Nobody has asked you to rest your salvation on him. Even the prophet wouldnt want you to do so. I do not, neither do his members.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Well, i know that the reason TB Josuah is here under scrutiny is because of the powerful miracles he performs in the name of Jesus.

I know that if he did not have the miraculous about him as he does, he will not be an issue on nairaland.

Oh Christians! they do not have a problem with those who throw water, oil, hankies etc all over the place but are against one man who has chosen to believe God and take him at his Word needing no assistance from material mediums, man or devils.

Dont you not know that there are more false preachers among the non-miracle performing pastors than there are among the miracle performing ones? These ones are quietly collecting money for so-called deliverance. Some are not born agian, nor do they know what the term 'born-again' means. Others came into ministry to make a living while some others came because they can speak clean english and have gone overseas for bible school.

How come we are attributing the more powerful works we see in the name of Jesus to devils. How come we question them? Ok where are the true miracles, like those of Peter and John who healed a lame man at the gate called beautiful, taking him by the hand and lifting him up?! Oh what boldness and faith in the all powerful name of Jesus!

No wonder atheists and freethinkers are happy when we condemn people like these, it only goes to butress their point that we are only praying, hoping , suffering and smiling with no results of power.

As for his doctrine, it i sound. His messages do not glorify himself or anyone but Jesus. They are simple but yet powerful. I get blessed each time i watch him.

Dear Choice,

You do not seem to be taking a non-judgemental position. Infact, you seem to be of the opinion that he is not a man of God. Because if you were actually indifferent as you claim, you will just let the matter rest.

As for me, i do not comment on every issue or topic on Nairaland. I shoudnt take a stand or make an arguement if i am not sure of my opinion in  the matter.

Even Jesus, when they pointed out that there were others who were not of his fold performing miracles in his name, did not start quoting scriptures concerning the arrival of false prophets; he simply said, let him a alone, he who is not against us is on our side"

Why dont we just be like the master and let the matter rest afterall, I do not think secret_447's comment was in respose to people who have not passed any judgement against the man  but those who have.

Are you sure u dont have an opinion?

That's right brother!

Because by the time unbelievers begin to commend and agree with what you say or do; then it is time to check yourself to be sure that you are walking in the path of light.

Chrisd,

I personally am not in need of any forum where only christians are allowed to share opinions.

You see, for some of us , we prefer where it is darkest, for that is where our light shines ever so brightly.

Everyone needs to hear the word, at least as a witness agianst them for the day of judgement.

So lets ride on ,  for the contrary winds will only drive our roots deeper.

I am defending my stand, not washing down anyones opinion. If in my defence their opinions are washed, fine.

If you check u'll see he came at me.

How come it's only donnie u saw?

All those bogus words will not cover up the fact that you are blind to truth, reality, which is beyond the senses, from which all else that is seen derive their existence.

You had better join a local assembly and be submitted to the authority there.

You are not wiser than God who gave us ministers.

Passage Ephesians 4:11,12,13

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Otherwise, you will never experience true spiritual growth.

How can somene who does not know truth attempt to define truth?

How can a blind man attempt to describe light?

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Nuru,

When the scriptures refer to Jesus as the Son of man, it does not mean that he was born of the seed of man. It means that He was man's representaive, to go to the cross in our place and to die and go to hell in our place.

It means He was the chosen one to appear before the mercy seat in heaven with his pure sanctified blood, to offer it on the alter of God for our eternal redemption.

When scriptures call Him the Son of God, it means he is God's representative to man, offered by God as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

He came from the father. His origin is in God. Before He was born, there was no Jesus. He existed as the eternal, all powerful, indestructible Word of God, in the bossom of the father.

To understad this is to understand who the christian is; because the christian is born of that same Word.

It was that Word which put on flesh and dwelt among us as Jesus. That is why Jesus was 100% divine even as He was 100% human. His life was divine,  it came from the seed of God -God's Word, and His body came from a woman. That is why he could be tempted and suffer pain like humans. But he was not born of man's corruptible seed(life).

Anyone Spirit that does not testify that Jesus is the Son of God is not of God,  but is the Spirit of the anti-christ.

allonym:
I agree about people perishing for a lack of knowledge. There are plenty of ignorant people out there following every person who calls themselves a miracle worker. They don't know the truth, they don't even bother to attempt to discover the truth even though their so called miracle worker is right in their midst.

Is that what you thinK? Is is really anyone who says he does miracles or that publicises miracles that has a crowd following him? Is this the result of your research or you ar just spaking bitterness against what you do not understand? If that were so, then anyone who said he does niracles would have a cowd araound him. But i tell you, there are many fake prophets and diviners who shout on the top of their voices on our streets but have only a few people at time to decieve, and just 4 a while before they find out they are being decieved.

allonym:
There is an easy way to prove things.

Example, in high school, I participated in an oratorical essay contest. I can scan my 1st place certificate, my certificate of attendance at the regional competition, bank statements indicating my receipt of the prize money (it shows who the money came from), newspaper clippings, and the organization's website still records my feat. I'm pretty sure they also have paper records so if necessary, I could get copies of those to prove it.

I can prove I'm a student of my university.

Really, can you prove that to me here?

Is it not possible to get fake credetials?

allonym:
I can have 15+ professors here ALL sign letters which say I've taken a class from them.

And who cannot show you doctors reports and certificates. They have been shown severally on TV. Doctors have been interviewed over certain cases. I have my healing school magazines here with me, with people who have certificates to prove that they were ill with docors signatures and addresses of the clinics.

allonym:
I can have secretaries, deans, provosts, and other administrators write similar letters indicating I was a student here. If you ever come to my school with a news crew and interview these people, they will not suddenly forget I was a student here.

I do not have that time brother, just like the NBC. But however, some newspapers have come around to report on the healing school and they were taken to the homes of some of these recipients.

Nevertheless, we are too busy conquering new ground to be bothered about small people like NBC. We are by far bigger than they are.

The healing ministry is not a show but a ministry, get that? We live them in God's hands 'cos he sent us.
.

allonym:
My student records will not disappear into thin air.

Thanx to Naijarita news. I see that is where you get your inspiration.

allonym:
So, those records exist. I have participated in numerous academic programs, worked a couple jobs, all which require some connection with my university. Essentially, almost everyone who knows me knows what school I goto.

Did those healed drop from the moon? Are they not Nigerians? , Thousands of them are shown on TV all over this country.

allonym:
If I needed to prove to someone now, 2 days from now, five years from now, 20 years from now, or the minute before I died, I will be able to do it!

Those recipients will only feel pity for you as they are presently rejoicing in the love of God and sharing that love and their testimony with as many as they come across , too happy to be bothered if one person somewhere is angry that they are being blessed.

allonym:
In order for me to apply to grad schools, I have to prove I'm who I say I am. Paper and electronic records must be transmitted, independently of me which confirm this information. Even if I wanted to, at this point, it is practically impossible for me to ever erase all evidence of me attending my university.

If I was blind from birth and given my sight, heck, if I lost my sight at the age of 10 and regained it later through a miraculous healing, you can be sure I could prove to anyone who wished to know that I was miraculously cured. Not only would I do it, I would actually feel it is my duty to do so. Ever notice how in the bible, almost everyone who was healed ran out telling everyone they could, even though Jesus told them to go and tell no one about it? Yeah, you couldn't shut me up if I was miraculously healed.

They still do so today, its just a pity that some today, like those high priests in Jesus day will rather chose to stand against the work of God causing others to think the Word is a lie, like they did, bribing the soldiers who came to report of Jesus' resurrection to lie that his body was stolen.

allonym:
So, you come to me with BS about people being healed and there being no way to prove it.

There are too many lost souls out there on their way to hell to bother ourselves with the fact that someone in Nairaland is refusing to believe the truth before his eyes.

allonym:
Unless in Nigeria, people who are healed miraculously are immediately shot, all their family, friends, doctors are put to death, and so there is no way anyone could possibly verify the miracle, then there should be at least one person whose entire life history is open from birth to healing.

Thanx to Nigerita, if i may ask, wer you involved in any of those verification processes yourself? 'cos you choose to believe that so easily.

allonym:
And, to my knowledge, there is not even ONE such person.

Pity, that is to ur knowledge.

allonym:
That is the damn shame. I hear soo much of all these healers and healings and crap, and not one single shred of evidence. And i'm just supposed to believe

You are not under compulsion to believe. Just like you are you are not under any compulsion to believe that Jesus rose from the death, victorious over death and hell.

Allonym,

Pls tell me, what does it mean to be penticostal?

I said it before and i say it again, Paul and Timothy chose to live the way they lived. They were not victims. Are you trying to get me off God's Word to allign myself with you in talking like the world does?

Are you sure  you are enjoying divine health? I do not mean sick today and  then sick next 4 months. Divine  health is not something you get from God by  chance,  noooo not at all. You need to maintain your confession of faith, even when you face negative situtuations. Divine health is something you work out for yourself by Gods word. Not just the believing but the confession of God's Word!

1Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

If i was healed over 2000 years ago then i am still healed today. So let God alone be true and every man, symptom or devil be a liar!

If you do not say it, you will not experience it. That is the law of faith.

I refuse to be sick!  It dosnt matter what symptoms show up; i do not change my confession because i am not trying to be healed,  I am the healed of God. Healing is my birth right in Christ Jesus. The bible says, "by his wounds i was healed" , so therefore, i remain  healed no matter what i see or feel. Get that?

Faith is not subject to the five senses. It is the response of the human Spirit to the Word of God.

You cannot medidtate on the Word of God, speaking and muttering these Words long enough and remain sick or bound. It is  not possible.

The Word will  surely grow and prevail!!

Timmy,

I had the same problems with my dad and later on, my mum.

At first I was offended because it was as if my dad picked on me whenever i had problems with my younger brother.

It even became worse when i gave myheart to Christ. Then i was a lot more compassionate because i understood that the reason for the trouble my dad gave me had changed.

He did not understand why i should start attending a different church, even when he noticed that my life had changed. I stopped drinking dopping and smoking, because i ws addicted to these. I was no longer getting into trouble for going to parties and sleeping out at night but i got into trouble for going to church and coming back at 9pm.

My only comfort then was the Holy spirit. I would pray in the Spirit and interceed for my family in tears. My dad stopped giving me money to go to school( then i was in the university). Most supprising to him was that i always remained on top of the situation, i always knew i was in charge of the situation and never suffered. God provided help from unexpected places.

Even my mum whom i thought would be sympathetic did not turn out to be as i thought. She made it seem as though i had offended God for being born again and leaving the catholic faith i was born into.

Well, all that is changed now. God moved upon my situation and turned it around. My dad later began to look up to me to know what to do in certain situations. He brought my brother who had a serious crisis as a result of marijuana addiction( we were smoking together before) to me to take to church.

He asked that i conduct morning devotions at home. In family meetings my words arre not taken lightly and i am always asked to lead that prayer.

Only God can make such things happen. Now i am best friends with my mum and dad. I look back and i am grateful to God and my parents for all i went through.


So learn to make the best of whatever situaion you find yourself. Rejoice in tribulations and with time, you will be glad for them.

Honour your parents and you wil live long on earth.

That's right dear... preach it!

I am not pushing my beliefs down anyone's throat. That is not my responsibility but the Holy Spirit's.

But i will not let ignorance make nonsense of the power of God that is in the gospel of Jesus Christ. I will only obey my Lord and Speak!

Thnk you

When i talk about God, i talk about him as revealed in His Holy Word.

I am aware that violence and force (jihad) are actually doctrines of Islam and not just some group of fanatics.

Look at this, the christian is saved by the death of Christ and he lives in this conciousness while still on earth. For the muslims, you do not know of salvation until death; When they hope their good deeds will supposedly secure for them a place in heaven. There is however no assurance of that salvation. The only way they can be sure of going to heaven is by Jihad. Is that not true?

No wonder...

The reason Jesus is the son of God is because He came from the very Word of the father. You cannot seperate a man from his word. The word, according to the bible,in the book of John 1 is God.

For this reason He is not seperate from the father. For this reason also, anyone who will recieve the Word of God according to the bible is actually recieving God Himself.

The father, the Word and and the Holy Spirit(the Spirit of God) are One.

I do not expect my muslim friend to understand this because it is only revealed to those who have been chosen for salvation.

Watch CNN and see the demonstration of the Character of the God of Islam...demanding for the heads of those cartoonists. See the violence..see the hatred...see the destruction.

That is definitely not my God...the one who gave his only begotten Son to die a shameful death on the cross just for me.

I do not think there are Anglicans or Lutherans or methodists who prefer to call themselves by that name 'prostestant'.

That is not the name of any denomination. There is no reason for hem to be protesting today.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus told us that we shall have what soever we say. The bible also tells us that death and life are in the power of the tongue. It also lets us know in Romans 10:8,9 that salvation is in your mouth.

He is using his mouth to position his life for success. What are you doing with yours? Speak for yourself, and let him speak for himself.

Many christians loose out on the best of God's blessings bc they choose to tie their lives to those names.

You ask a fellow, "are you born-again or have you recieved the holy Ghost?' and he answers, 'I am not penticostal'.

What does 'penticostal' or 'orthodox' have to do with recieving the Holy Ghost? You should recieve the Holy Ghost and speak in other tongues whether you are catholic, protestant or penticostal. So don't hide behind any name to excuse yourself from doing God's Word.

That is what we want to get at... ok?

I belong to a  chusrch myself. I have recieved the Holy spirit and i speak with tongues but i am neither penticostal, prostestant nor orthordox. I am a christain.

The bible from which you claim your salvation is now under questioning.

"for the lack of knowledge my people perish"

Not because he has not given tehm healing already!

Our healing has already been paid for by the death of Jesus christ.

By his wounds, we are healed!

Paul was not talking about physical infirmity there brother.

He was refering to something totally different. He was troubled by those who are refered to as 'Judaisers'. They sought to put those whom he had set free through the gospel back in bondage; commanding them to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses. This they did many times.

He also faught with the tendedcy to be proud because of the abundace of revelation he recieved from God.

The phrase, 'infirmity of the flesh' is like saying, 'pain in the neck' like we have it today.

Read Rom 8:11 and see Paul's revelation of divine health.

Paul suffered need by choice and not as a victim.

No balancing brother! At all times, ensure that you allign yourself with the mirror of God(His Word).

God Word is the only sure foundation

w h a t e v e r

I feel for Deji,

Cos that's just how far he can see.