₦airaland Forum

@BabaGnoni,

I actually have a response for you there: permit me to play the devil's advocate for a minute: Romans 12:2 - the Christians obedience is his burnt offering to God.

End of advocacy.

Good. If the Christian's obedience is a burnt offering to God, then we can conclude that with the coming of the New Covenant, also came certain fundamental changes to some practices.

What was burnt offerings before, is today's obedience.

What were sacrifices before is today's praise and worship.

What was circumcision, which was the cutting off the male foreskin has become the circumcision of the heart unto a new creation.

What was were Jewish tithing, first fruiting and offerings before, is today's free will giving.

I trust that our friend should have gotten the point by now.

EDITED.

NativeBoy: You are free to think what you wish. For me, I don't think that the God who gave everything to redeem me will turn around and punish me because I didn't pay tithes. Tithing has nothing to do with salvation. I do believe that I will definitely be blessed (and I have been) as I tithe. And not all blessing is monetary. I pay tithes because I believe God is the owner of the first fruits of my labor and that the church he has built needs to be well resourced.

Apparently, you are also free to think what you wish. Gospel living should be based on sound biblical inferences and not sentiments, thoughts or needs.

As much as I wish to overlook this statement of yours since it is not directed at me, I find my mind returning to it over and over. So let's deal with it.

My grouse with your statement is your inability to see the link btw tithing and circumcision, as directed by trustman.

You say circumcision had health benefits, so we should do it, abi?

Why does Paul and the other apostles disagree with you?

Like tithing today, circumcision was viewed as a path to salvation and the apostles discouraged this: Acts15.

Like tithing today, circumcision was a Jewish practice that had the potential of blurring the significance of the New Testament covenant in the mind of those who practised it: Phillipians 3:3.

Like tithing today, the apostle Paul would have had the strongest rebuke for those who tithed like he had for those who practiced curcumcision: Galatians 5:4

Like tithing today, Paul saw no benefit in curcumcision save that it brought men into bondage.

I was born to a Muslim father who circumcised me. I circumcised my son. We both did based on accepted health and cultural norms, and not based on faith.

So we return to a salient point and that is the motive behind our actions. Paul who discouraged circumcision, circumcised Timothy for a reason: motive.

As long as your tithing is faith based, anchored on Jewish doctrines and practices, it is wrong. Or better stll, the motive is wrong. If, however, your tithing is a commitment to giving, as much as you could also give any other percentage of your income, then it is right. And that also justifies those who do not tithe but give bc their giving is also a proprtion of what they have. Rendering your motive for doing it right.

The motive for tithing is what most anti tither question. As long as tithing is for

1. Blessings

2. Based on the Jewish doctrine and practice

3. To be in right standing with God

4. To make heaven

5. To ward off devourer, etc,

You are tithing with wrong motives.

Only one motive makes tithing right: a commitment to giving with no strings attached.

emperortony: I haven't read the said post you referred me to, will do that later. And yes you are right the sadducees and pharisees are like "men of God" or more like keepers of the law. Like I said during my first independent post I figuratively employed that scripture, so as to make the non-tithers let us pay our tithes and not try to make us become like them. "If they won't pay, they shouldn't try to stop those who are ready to pay" this is the point I wanted to make with that scripture and not the original "heaven's meaning as denoted in the passage".

I personally don't believe the consequences of not paying tithe is hell. I hardly make post as well cause most of the time it result to e-fighting and derogatory remark. So try to get my point let the tithers pay their tithe and the non-tither abstain from it, A man has the right to make up his mind. So creating a tract to discourage a man from tithing, I feel its an infringement and that was the major reason why I left my "sit down look" stance to drop a comment. It may not be worthwhile like you tags my 1st post, but at least I tried.

Thank you for understanding my position. I also get your position. In fact I also believe in the "live and let's live" attitude. While studying on tithes, I believe God opened my heart to understand Romans 4 one night. Since then I push the idea: "he that tithed to the Lord he does so... he that doesn't to God he does so", God has not rejected him either bc tithing is a small issue in God's kingdom.

This is actually the position I advocated on the tract too. But...

I needed you to read my response to Gombs to comprehend why this tract must be made. In brief, tithing is actually threatening the gospel. Its the reason Paul contended the Circumcisions in his days.

If there's anyone who advocates liberty in the use of finances it is anti tithers. if there's any group that advocate compulsion, it is tithers. This is from my experience and its the overwhelming testimony of most people on this thread. And our plea with tithers and their pastors is to allow people to use their money for whatever they wish and stop these lies called compulsory monetary tithes.

emperortony: Yes, that was why I quoted this scripture Matt.23:13 reads..“How
terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees!
You hypocrites! You lock the door to the Kingdom
of heaven in people's faces, but you yourselves
don't go in, nor do you allow in those who are
trying to enter! Go in"

Normally I would ignore posts like this but since you have brought it twice now, one had better shed some light on the matter before you begin to think you have said something worthwhile.

First of all, I request you look up the snippet I provided Gombs in his "headache" post and tell me what you disagree about that post.

Secondly, Matthew 23 indicted all religious people, including those of you who make a big deal out of tithe. You insinuate from that verse that those who do not tithe will not go to heaven; a position that is similarly shared by some Judaizers in Paul's days who believe except you are circumcised you cannot be saved. A position similar to the Pharisees Jesus was castigating here, who believed that the way of salvation was through Moses laws and the tradition of the elders.

Those who shut the door of heaven against people and don't go in themselves are those who find security in what they do: RELIGION and not what Christ has done.

Pls read the whole passage well and realise that the Pharisees and Sadducees in those text can be conveniently replace with "men of God" of today and the meaning of the text will still be unchanged.

Gombs: my concern over the year.... why is it their headache since i want to be gullible by paying tithes?

This is the reason for my own headache with the tithe doctrine and the reason why everyone should have such a headache also. I quote from the text of the proposed tithe tract:

DrummaBoy: Tithing and the Gospel

Ideally the subject of whether Christians should tithe or not should not occupy a central space to warrant publication on a tract, if not for the fact that the practice of tithing is threatening the Christian gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is shown clearly in the New Testament to be a free gospel (Romans 8:32; 2Peter 1:3). The idea that salvation can be purchased is strongly repudiated in the bible (Acts 8:20). Unfortunately, this is the impression that modern day practice of tithing is giving the world. There are many Christian churches today that make tithing compulsory. They go to the extent of saying that people cannot be members of churches except they are “faithful” tithers. Apart from the fact that such a position is foreign to scripture, it also betrays the central truth of the bible that our salvation is no longer fully paid; rather, it gives the impression that there are things we must add to it. In the days of the bible some thought to add good works to their salvation; in our days pastors are asking us to add tithing to our salvation.

Apart from the above, the impression that the world is getting about the church is not good at all. Many people have discarded the gospel message because modern gospel preaching does not only require for them to submit their lives to Christ, it also demands for them to submit their bank account to church. So that the tithe which members give to the church is the minimum people bring to church. Outside the tithe, there is also the mandatory yearly Firstfruit that members must pay as they give their whole salaries to churches in January. There are building pledges to be redeemed. There is the mission offering to be given. There are gifts that must be bought for the pastors at key occasions in their lives. At the end of the day, the ministers are the ones smiling to the bank, while church members are groaning. The lie is continually sold to church people that God blesses giving. Even though he does, these preachers should be reminded that giving is not the central subject of the bible. The implication is diverse but one of them is the proliferation of churches all around and the fact that many young people, who should be using their youthful years to be productive and make clean wealth, branch out to ministry for quick gain.

@frosbel

I sent you a PM

_^^^ What else can be said here.

No wonder nlmediator himself, a leading WOF adherent, distanced himself from JDS on the defunct thread.

While I can understand why they distort the cross, what's the need in making up all of these fables on JDS? Is it to appear as great teachers of the Word, or just plain mischief?

Apparently someone started the nonsense and the others just latched unto it uncritically.

Its so sad...

[size=16pt]SHOULD YOU TITHE TODAY?[/size]

The answer to the title of this tract is “No” and we shall be examining “why” in the remainder of the tract. The subject of whether Christians are to tithe or not to tithe is a deeply contentious one today, and obviously so because it involves money. This tract shall be offering biblical proofs to the thesis that “Christians are not obligated to tithe today”.

The Biblical Tithe

When we hear the word “tithe” today, our minds are drawn to the concept of 10% of a person’s income. Unfortunately, this is not the definition the bible offers for the tithe. In fact from Genesis to Revelation there is no account of anyone giving a tithe of his income to anybody; neither was the tithe money in the bible, even though there are ample evidences to show that money was being used since the days of Abraham. The word “tithe” had been mentioned in the story of Abraham and Jacob in the book of Genesis, but it was not until Leviticus 27:30-32 would we find something close to a definition for the tithe.

30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD… 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

The tithe is defined here to be of the “seed of the land”, “fruit of the tree” and tenth of the herd. The biblical tithes were agricultural products or food, they were never money. This so called definition for the tithe is accepted by many because Leviticus 27 is the first time in the bible God would mention the word “tithe” and while mentioning it, he describes it as holy and he tells us what it consisted of.

Later in other books of Moses, we find passages of scriptures that help us to comprehend the biblical tithe better. Numbers 18:20-28, Deuteronomy 14:22-29 and Deuteronomy 26:12-15, showed us that the biblical tithes were a tenth of the agricultural products Israel harvested off the holy land God had given them. The tithes were to be given to the Levites. Levi was a tribe in Israel God had separated to serve him and who had no inheritance in Israel; the tithe was their inheritance. In the process, the Levitical tribe, that included the Aaronic priests, were the people involved in the administration of the civil and the religious life of the nation of Israel. The tithes became something like a system of taxation with which the Levitical tribe was provided for as they served the people. The aforementioned scriptures also showed that the tithes were given to the poor, the widows, the orphans and the stranger. Therefore this class of people was exempted from tithing. At other times, the tithe was even eaten by the tither himself. Every scripture in the bible that referred to tithes showed that the tithe was food. When God mentioned the bringing of tithes in Malachi 3:10, he also said “that there might be meat (food) in my house”. When Jesus mentioned the tithe in Matthew 23:23, he enumerated “mints, anise and cumin”. These were spices for food.

Also, the injunction to tithe under Moses was part of the Mosaic laws that were done away with through the sacrificial works our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15; Hebrew 8:13). If we must tithe today, we should also keep every other aspect of the laws of Moses (Galatians 5:3; James 2:10 ). If this is not practical, then it is simply not practical to tithe today.

Finally, it is not particularly correct to ask Christians to tithe because Abraham tithed. Abraham tithed from war spoils and not from his possessions or income. And it is clear from scriptures that we are called to imitate Abraham's faith and not every detail of his life - some of which were not exactly exemplary (Genesis 12:11-13 ; Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:7). Abraham also circumcised his sons, following a direct instruction from God in Genesis 17, but by the time of the New Testament, Jesus' apostles show us that circumcision was not a New Testament obligation (Acts 15; Galatians 5:3-4; Colossians 2:16-17; Philippians 3:3).


Tithing and the Gospel

The doctrine and practice of tithing is threatening the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ is shown clearly in the New Testament to be a free gospel (Romans 8:32; 2Peter 1:3). The idea that salvation or any gift of God can be purchased is strongly repudiated in the bible (Acts 8:20). Unfortunately, this is the impression that modern day practice of tithing is giving the world. There are many Christian churches today that make tithing compulsory. They go to the extent of saying that people cannot be members of churches except they are “faithful” tithers. Apart from the fact that such a position is foreign to scripture, it also betrays the central truth of the bible that our salvation is no longer fully paid; rather, it gives the impression that there are things we must add to it. In the days of the bible some thought to add good works to their salvation; in our days pastors are asking us to add tithing to our salvation.

Despite the abuse the gospel of Jesus Christ has suffered in the hands of false teachers, its basic content remain unchanged. Jesus Christ died on the cross for all men so as to save men from sin. All that is required to enjoy the blessings of the cross is for the individual to understand this truth and to repent of his/her sins and believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. By believing in him you will be saved. God does not require a penny from you to be saved; neither does he demand a kobo from you to keep you safe. The salvation that Jesus Christ purchased for the world has been fully paid for, we need not add a tithe, a firstfuit, pledges, a giving, or any kind of good works to make it complete. The salvation you receive by faith is a complete one (Colossians 2:10). All that God requires of you is to repent and believe. I trust that if anyone reading this tract is not saved, they would take advantage of this free offer of salvation. And for those who might need further understanding on the subject of salvation, you can refer to the contact address below this tract.

Christian Work Ethics

The leading lie that is sold to people about the need to tithe is that tithing is a means to financial prosperity. People are told to tithe to either secure their finances or to break the stranglehold of poverty. Those who teach this doctrine resort to Malachi 3:8-12 and interpret God's saying he would send a blessing, following the act of tithing, as God promising prosperity for tithing. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Malachi 3:8-12, in its literal form, is a message to Jews and not to Christians and this is the reason why despite years of tithing, many Christians are yet to see these blessings that have been promised. What secures prosperity for Christians is not tithing but plain hard work. The New Testament teaches that we should work so we may eat (2Thessalonians 3:7-10) and it encourages the strong to work and provide for the weak (Acts 20:33-35). God is not a magician and he does not do money doubling. Nations who are godless but prosperous today got to that point by adhering to basic Christian work ethics, and not by tithing. After we have done what we ought to do, the Christian might then call upon God to bless the works of his hands and God is certain to do this. Giving to get or tithing is not a Christian means to financial prosperity.

Christian Giving

The laws of Moses that enacted tithing were a shadow of things to come, which is the New Testament Christian life (Heb 8:5). Therefore Malachi 3:10, an extension of the Mosaic law, was pointing the church to a spiritual lesson.

Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! (NLT)

The Christian's body is the temple of God today (I Corinthian 6:19; Ephesians 6:22). The temple which was a copy or shadow of something to come has been made perfect in our body through Christ. Therefore the storehouse is not in any church building made by hand. It is in us; in our body.

Giving help to a brother or sister who is in need means bringing food (or tithe) into the storehouse of God. That is why God is pleased with sharing among brethren (Heb 13:16) and that is why sharing was a major feature of the early church (Acts 4:32; 2Corinthians 8:1-2). This is why our Christ, the High priest who receives tithe(gifts) in his temple(our body) said, "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." This is how to give to God through Christ.

Take your tithe or 5%, 20%, 60%, etc of your income cheerfully to the true storehouse of God (people in need) and fill it. Whosoever it is. Mandating anyone to PAY tithe in the church is refusing to understand the true spiritual lesson that Malachi 3 wishes to teach us. There is no greater commandment than these: Love the LORD your God and love your neighbour as yourself, Mark 12:30-31.

Further Study

A tract like this cannot contain everything that needs to be known about the biblical tithe. I therefore refer the readers to some readily available materials on the internet for you to study more on the biblical tithes:

1. Gary J. Arnolds works on www.tithing101.com
2. Matthew E. Nerramore’s works: www.tekoapublishing.com.
3. Dr. Russel Kelly whose PHD theological thesis was on tithing: www.tithing-russkelly.com

Contact Address:

(As shall be agreed by the publishers of the tract)

EDITED

In the next post I will be presenting the text I have written and thus propose for the oncoming tract on tithing.

The text contain 2,419 words, a little short of the 2,500 words I had proposed for a six paged tract.

If my submission is accepted as the text for the tract, I am stating upfront that I shall be donating the £50, winner's price, towards the printing and distribution of the tracts, this is in addition to whatever else I would do for the success of the project. I do not think this move is made in anyway to prejudice frosbel to give me the "price money". Whichever way, he will still give the cash now... Abi?


I invite everyone to carefully peruse the text for grammatical correction and other things. I will gladly accept deletion and addition as the house agrees to. I assume this is an as anti tithers project and thus tithers may not have much to contribute to the text.

Thank you frosbel for this laudable project. Stay tuned....

Gombs: ^^^
Standing ovation...wow!

(Minus the tithe part), this is an outstanding piece...esp the "in very rare occasions" part

Thank you Gombs

I remember clearly that after being a Christian for only a months or so, it was a tract I read on the Perseverance of the Saints that sowed the seed of God's word in my heart. And after God, that singular doctrine is the reason I have not returned to the world ever since.

Also, I came across a tract just this morning discussing religious cults. I felt we could design this tract that way too. It is six pages with approximately 2,500 words on it. Printing will be easy as it will be one sheet of say A4 paper that the six pages will be printed on with texts in three columns of each page. the tract can then be neatly wrapped with the front page in front.

I guess you understand what I mean.

I posted Froebel "challenge" on a Facebook page on the tithing and see what a lady wrote in response:

Someone asked me today if I had a tract on
so-called tithing. The Holy Ghost witness to two
souls that we have been lied to.

Another reason we must get to work.

Gombs: Finally a thread on restitution... I dnt think one should, 2 Corinthians 5 : 17 makes me don't have much savour for it, but what if the person who does wrong is already born again? He should then ask for forgiveness and refrain from such.

Goshen, drummaboy, kunle, candour....make una come and edify me on this topic

Thank you Gombs for inviting me to this discussion. I will just speak as God gives Me liberty in spirit.

First two stories. Where I did my Youth Service, I lived in a Deeper Life Community. Listening to the messages, I noticed they paid a lot of attention on restitution. They had scriptures for them. I didn't mind it bc thanks to God I had no skeleton in my cupboard. But sometimes I couldn't help thinking if the practice was healthy at all.

Before going for service, I became friends with a Christian brother. This sincere brother was in real trouble. He had entered the University with fake result or something to that effect. He became a Christian and decided to restitute. He gave himself up to the school authorities. He was denied graduating even after providing a new result he had sat for. After two or three years since his mate graduated, the University pardoned him and he was let go.

I am certain many people have different reactions to that story. My own reaction is that God should never bring a temptation my way I cannot endure.

Back to restitution: I see it in two lights.

1. It is not neccesary. Why? Because of the blood of Jesus. Our Lord and Father FORGIVES AND FORGETS. So what's there to restitute? What those who teach restitution should teach is THE POWER IN THE BLOOD. Dassal!

2. There is a proper place for it.

Preachers must beware that they do not become Holy Spirit to people. The vast majority of what people do in church today is bc a preacher told them to do it. People tithe today and you ask them why, they say God told them to. What they do not tell you is that they have heard Malachi preached so much they begin to hear voices in their brains.

Same goes with restitution. When you listen to a message like that of the OP, you cannot but begin to think.

What we do not realize is that the converted Christian has God within him. He has God's laws written on his heart. He can be led of the Spirit too. Preaching is not telling people what to do, preaching is leading men to God to hear him for themselves. Jesus said blessed are our eyes and ears for they see and hear.

Having said that, IN VERY RARE OCCASIONS, it might be necessary to restitute. But it won't be bc someone preached on restitution or because one is guilt tripped to do it, it would be bc God the Holy Spirit instructed his son to do so. Even in such a case, the Christian should discuss the matter first with a sound Pastor and receive his agreement to go ahead. If its an action that would hurt more people than heal a few, it might be better left undone.

To wrap it up, let all Christians know God for themselves. Let them know what he requires of them and let's all stop this baby Christianity of sit down, stand up, don't go, go, etc. Let's come up to maturity as we rejoice first in what God had done for us in Christ Jesus, love him and live for him. If in the process we are instructed by him to do anything, let it be of free motivation from our hearts and not bc someone guilt tripped us to doing anything.

1Corinthians 8 talks of some who wound the tender conscience of God children; he says when they do this they sin against Christ. No one is god to anyone; we are all brethren; if we had enough sense to hear him call us to living faith with him, we should have enough sense to allow him lead us.

DO NOT BECOME SLAVES OF MEN.

kuss: i you ever seen a tither that is not happy paying tithe
i am a tither, am happy about it and nothing can change my mind about tithing because i ve seen the benefit
i heve friends that are not tithers and they claim they are happy about it too
let's channel our energy to something else
let's print track to preach the gospel
the fact that pagan and Muslim are joining u in this is enough reason to have a rethink
there is this saying in my place IT'S ONLY A BASTARD CHILD THAT DESCRIBES HIS FATHER'S HOUSE WITH HIS LEFT HAND
the Church of God is our father's house
let's pray for revival in the church
let's not try to do the work of the Holy Spirit for him
thanks

Have you ever seen a Catholic unhappy worshipping Mary?

Have you ever seen a Mohammedian unhappy worshipping Allah?

Have you ever seen a Hinduist unhappy worshipping cows?

Have you ever seen an animist unhappy placing "ebo" in a T-junction?

Do you think Saul of Tarusus was unhappy as a Judaist?

Have you ever seen a religionist unhappy about doing works?

Its not about happiness in what you do; its about whether what is done in the name of religion has a foundation in scripture.

And as for this tithe of a thing... naaa, far from it.

veecovee: I very busy here but my last word to you is that many are in hell for disobeying tithe

God bless you

They went to hell because they disobeyed tithe...

In other words TITHES is to be obeyed...

In other words the tithe is your god...

The more reason the tract should be written and written ASAP!

Friedrich Nietzsche was a 19th century philosopher and an atheist. He was the first to profound the theories that "God is dead" and those of the super man or the overman . Nietzsche theories began to find acceptance in a time when Europe was getting tired of religion and men were proposing new paths for life or to God. This was about the time New Thoughts, the movement that is today WoF, was beginning to depart from orthodox Christianity. The common theme in Nietzsche thoughts, New Thoughts and WOF, is that God is no longer needed. Man is now god of himself.

A simple Google on Niethzsche will reveals documents on him. Consider this one:

www.markb287.hubpages.com/hub/Nietzsche--Philosophy--and-the-Overman

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F5: The Distortion of the Cross[/size]

Two incidences in the Old Testament help us appreciate the central place that the cross of Jesus occupies in the Christian faith: the first being the events that culminated in the expulsion of Adam from Eden and the other being the incidence that led to Moses building a bronze snake in the wilderness.

When man fell to sin, God said to the serpent, the devil: “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;  it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (Genesis 3:15). In those words we find a prophetic lens into what was to happen on the cross of Jesus. Paul would later show us the full meaning of those texts: it was the princes of these world who would crucify the Lord of glory. But in doing so God, through Christ, would bruise the head of the serpent and thus bring many sons to God through faith in Christ. In the Garden of Eden, God again depicted the cross of Jesus, when he took an animal, slaughtered it and provided Adam and Eve with clothing. This again depicted the death of Jesus as the Lamb of God slain for the sin of men and thus providing man a covering of righteousness for the shame of sin we suffer.

The second incidence where we see the cross very glaringly depicted was in the wilderness after Moses and the children of Israel had had another round of altercation. God sends serpents into their midst and while they cried out from the pain of being bitten by the snakes, Moses is instructed to make a bronze snake and all the Israelites needed to do when bitten was to look up at the snake. Jesus would eventually link that incidence to himself as he said: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:14-15). “There is salvation in a look”, said C. H. Spurgeon.

It is clear to us today that God intentionally depicted his strength through the weakness of the cross. Paul told the Corinthian church, as he discussed Christ and him crucified, in 1 Corinthians, that the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Those who had followed the redemption story would realize, still from Paul’s words, that “God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;  and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:  That no flesh should glory in his presence.” (1 Corinthians 1: 27-29). That is why God chose for his Son to be born to lowly parentage; that he should be born in a manger; that he should be a man of sorrow and acquainted with grief; that he should be a man that had no where to lay his head and thus cannot be said to be rich; that he should be a man that would be despised and hated by both the religious and political authorities; and that he should be a man that would eventually die an ignominious death on the cross. In all these, God was simply confirming his strength so that no man would glory in his presence.

Unfortunately, the times have changed since our Lord and Savior walked the earth. We are in a season when Christianity should not be seen as a religion of the poor or the weak. Christianity, we are shown today is a religion for “Supermen” (Do you remember the teachings of Friedrich Nietzsche?) We are in times when Christianity is associated with breakthroughs, lifting, signs and wonders, blessings, riches, ostentatious lifestyles, rich pastors dressed in expensive clothing, jet flying and limousine cruising clergies, etc. Christianity, we are told is not for the weak, failures and defeated, rather than Christianity is for the strong. This gradual deflection from orthodox Christian practice and doctrine did not come suddenly. Rather, it came as certain men began to teach damnable heresies by going straight to the central theme of the gospel, the cross and tried to distort it. The Mohhamedians before them had tried it by saying Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. When they began to teach their own gospel they said “that there is no redemption at the cross… the cross is a place of failure and defeat”.

It was extremely important for these gentlemen to distort the essential message of the cross so that it would accommodate their heresies. While the cross of Jesus is originally meant to solve the sin question, alone. These men thought themselves wiser than God and included the fact that the cross of Jesus has redeemed us from sickness and poverty. At one end, God is telling humanity that our problem is sin, and the fact that we do not comprehend what the essential ingredients of His holiness are. That no matter how good we may claim to be, all of our righteousness can only earn his wrath. However, these men said that human beings have other problems. And these problems will essentially come under two headings: sickness and poverty. That the cross, if indeed it came to solve man’s problems that is sin, must solve these two problems also. This is the result of man making God into man’s own image.

Over the weekend I had a discussion with a Christian minister, who is also a friend and a brother. He told me that his wife once asked him why he does not preach to minister to people’s problems. That there are people in the congregation who have financial troubles and who may not be well. Why does he carry on preaching messages on sin, righteousness, God’s kingdom, and so on? This brother told me that he said to his wife: when men go to the bible to find solutions to their problems, they will discover heresies. But when we allow the bible to tell us what our problem is, we will find solution to the main problem of man, which is sin, and then all other needs we might seem to have will be solved also.

Modern day idolatry is man asking God to solve our problems, while God is telling us some other problem he wishes to solve for us. The trouble with humanity is not poverty and sickness. The trouble with humanity is sin. The cross of Jesus came to solve the sin problem (Matthew 1:21). When that is done, God has promised to solve other problems for us (Matthew 6:33). The origin of the distortion of the cross, therefore, arises from the fact that the WOF doctrines propose another purpose for the cross of Jesus Christ. In the process, it must distort the story of the cross to fit these distorted purposes of theirs. The trouble with the WOF gospel is that this distortion sometimes can be so subtlety done; so that what is preached can very much look like the gospel but at close scrutiny, it would be found out to be another gospel.

The discussions on this thread will continue to analyze the subtle distortions that the WOF gospel has done both to the cross of Jesus and the orthodox doctrines that came from it. I implore our readers to patiently follow the analysis.

I REST MY CASE ON F5

frosbel: okay since no takers yet, I open this to all and sundry.

I really mean business, no joke.

If there is still no interest , I will do it myself before end of this year when I have ample time to concentrate on such an important task.

If you are shy, then just reply with your interest to my mail.

I will work on something. Approximately how many words, or how many pages on a font 12 MS word?

@frosbel,

An anti-tithe tract is a laudable idea. But that tract should also preach the gospel.

Its very simple. As the writer points out the error in tithing, he/she should also use the opportunity to tell the gospel message: God doesn't require we pay a tithe anymore because Jesus has paid it all for us. The Laws of Moses required the Jews pay a tithe: Christ fulfilled those laws, thus leaving us no obligation to pay/give a tithe.

Also, for as many who have been put off by the gospel message because Pastors use it to demand money off them, they should understand that the salvation in the gospel is free. It doesn't require a dime from of us to partake of it, neither does it require our tithes.

Many people are used to tracts on just salvation. A tract on tithes should carry the salvation message too. Thereby propagating, while persevering the gospel message.

Following...

BTW frosbel, your conditions cut out folks like myself. However, I avail myself on the panel of judges, if there should be anything like that.

Again:

Prof Amoda couldn't have said it better.

Truth is that any thorough study of the biblical tithe will always lead to the conclusion that the tithes being collected today is not biblical.

The church will teach that it is no longer under the Law but it resorts to the law to justify tithing. When that doesn't succeed they go to Abraham. But when they are shown that Abram tithed once, from war spoils, etc, they again return to Moses.

Truth is that the tithe that is collected today is fraud. It is the means of the clergy to defraud unsuspecting people.

The other truth about it is that tithing is a form if idol worship for people. People in a bid to secure earthly riches for themselves, resort to tithing as a means. This is not any different from the animist who gives sacrifices to his gods to curry favor from him. The NT Christian church never teaches this sort of thing. God calls us to serve him in truth and verity, regardless of results. He has also promised to bless us, not because we tithe.

The positive aspect of Prof Amoda article is that it is drawing more and more attention to this problem with tithing in churches. If tithes are stopped being paid in church, perhaps the true church will emerge and not these ones that are propelled more by Mammon spirit than God.

Prof Amoda couldn't have said it better.

Truth is that any thorough study of the biblical tithe will always lead to the conclusion that the tithes being collected today is not biblical.

The church will teach that it is no longer under the Law but it resorts to the law to justify tithing. When that doesn't succeed they go to Abraham. But when they are shown that Abram tithed once, from war spoils, etc, they again return to Moses.

Truth is that the tithe that is collected today is fraud. It is the means of the clergy to defraud unsuspecting people.

The other truth about it is that tithing is a form if idol worship for people. People in a bid to secure earthly riches for themselves, resort to tithing as a means. This is not any different from the animist who gives sacrifices to his gods to curry favor from him. The NT Christian church never teaches this sort of thing. God calls us to serve him in truth and verity, regardless of results. He has also promised to bless us, not because we tithe.

The positive aspect of Prof Amoda article is that it is drawing more and more attention to this problem with tithing in churches. If tithes are stopped being paid in church, perhaps the true church will emerge and not these ones that are propelled more by Mammon spirit than God.

Image123: just move on. It's almost impossible for you to understand what I've said.

I understand you well enough. I should ask if YOU understand what you quoted above.

As for moving on... I won't give you that pleasure. I hope you remember you met me on this thread?

Image123: Here's the verse i cited. i was hoping everyone could draw their conclusions, presenting it as an option not previously looked at.

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Those are the words of Jesus about JUDGEMENT/CONDEMNING. It's about God's kingdom(which the church is a part of) and the enemy sowing tares in God's kingdom. The answer is clear from the Lord. "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:" i'm not sure we are wiser than Him. There is a way correction is done and warning carried out. Drumb gave a link earlier that says pretty much what this thread is perhaps hoping to say.(THIS ). Methinks that's a christian way to correct and warn, instead of the propensity of attacking the messenger instead of the message.

Two things can be gleaned from the Matthew 13 scripture

1. God's servants were able to distinguish between wheat and tares and the Master acknowledged this.

2. The Master insisted that the tares are not rooted out, stating that this was the exclusive preserve of God.

The aim of this thread is still in keeping with the spirit of 1 above, and that is being able to distinguish false from true. The Master did not stop them from doing this. Indeed every scripture that warns on falsehood does this. Now, if in the bid not to name names, the servants chooses to call tares wheat, shall we not say such a servant is doing the vineyard disservice? Paul commanded Timothy after warning of false doctrines in church: "If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shall be a good minister of Jesus... These things command and teach" 1 Timothy 4:6,11. We are still withing syllabus here.

However number 2 is the exclusive preserve of God, its beyond the syllabus of this thread. To root out will be to deprive of life; it would mean bringing judgement; it would mean death and total annihilation. It is easy for one to think that because there is falsehood somewhere then a swift end should come to that place; the minister should fall down and die; God cannot use even such falsehood for good; etc. Those are the thinking of finite minds and Christ is saying that God is able to bring good out of evil but as for judgement of falsehood at the end, only God can do so. None of us can and it is not the aim of this thread to do so. You may peruse the OP for the purposes stated there.

As to the messenger and his message, the two cannot be divorced from each other. Whatever befalls one, befalls the other. Nonetheless, the thread seeks to peruse the message and the mention of various messengers simply cannot be avoided. It is my humble counsel however that we all seek to be followers of Jesus who alone is infallible because when we follow men and have made tin gods out of them, that is when we become offended when names of our favorite ministers are mentioned in connection with false doctrine.

I stumbled on this thread opened February 2013 and titled FELLOW CHRISTIANS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO US? The OP raised some salient points on the thread. Most of them we have discussed on this thread and some yet to be discussed.

I share this thread here to lend further credence to what we are doing and perhaps to clear the doubts of some who think the thread is a pursuit on personal vendetta.

This post does not mention WOF but its easy to see that WOF is at the root of the OP dilemma:

wordthots: In recent times this is one question that has really bothered me. Each time I look at the pauline prayers (eph.1:16-21, col.1:9-12, eph.3:14-18), they seem so deep and insightful.

I noticed paul didn't pray against enemies neither did he pray for material blessings (like many of us do today). Rather when he prayed for the churches, he prayed for depth, insight and more knowledge in the things of God

Today christianity is fast becoming a get rich quick scheme, we have set our minds on the mundane things. We have taken our eyes off jesus, setting them on the things we can get (money, health and prosperity).
Nowadays the watchword is "get all you can, can all you get and sit on the can"; whatever happened to contentment and knowing Him more.
We 've put so much emphasis on the temporal, forgetting that there's so much more. The new focus is man and what he can get from God. But there is a definite order in the scheme of things and that's seeking first Gods kingdom before the things. The emphasis and focus is God, not the things.

The worlds standards have become our standards. We claim to preach success and prosperity the bible way yet we use the worlds standards.
To us a successful church has a large congregation, large auditorium, the pastor and congregation drive exotic cars, the account is fat and their many business men in the church. Truth is, anybody can get these results, MOG or ifa priest. By hook or by crook. We say "God must be with you, since you are getting results". How naïve...

Contentment has lost its place...
Nowadays we are taught to give so as to get. The more you give, the more you get, we are slowly becoming clients of a magician God. And so Men now give just to get, afterall everyone wants to be a millionaire.
But the truth is we don't give to get, we give cause we love God and in obedience to His word; getting is a bye product (not the end in itself). Whether we get or not we should still give freely in obedience to his word.

We need to learn contentment. Not every christian will be a millionaire, there's no promise like that in the bible.. Paul stressed this in his writings just as Jesus did; contentment is key. Paul never prayed about the churches needs; as far as needs were concerned he just made plain statements of Gods provision e.g phil.4:19, 2cor.8:9. If we seek first Gods kingdom, our needs will be met and our bills will be paid (not necessarily in millions). Its not a prayer, its a fact.

Years back when preaching I used to present the gospel in a certain way. "If you have jesus you will never know poverty, sickness and you will live long". How ignorant I was...
I recently read in the papers about a certain man hugh hefner (owner of playboy- a mag dat promotes immorality) and was amazed. The guy is rich, healthy and very old, and he is far from being saved (without judging its obvious). There are many pagans, atheists etc just like him.
You don't have to be a christian to be innovative and standout, I mean that's clear in our world today; an example is Japan, which has more idol worshippers than christians yet it has a good economy and it is very innovative.

The richest men in the world are atheists, buddhists and pagans not christians.
My point; there's so much more to christianity...let's stop chasing the things, remember no man can serve 2masters.

We need to set our hearts on the right things. I don't know about you but my new watchword is that of Apostle paul:
[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers) (AMP)

www.nairaland.com/1188495/fellow-christians-what-happening-us

Image123: Jesus is Lord. i hardly said anything, why all this long tori for me only? i only addressed a part of anony's post and added a scripture passage to the mix. i wasn't answering any question or commenting on a bible verse. Draw your conclusion please, let's not unrail the thread, you know.

Better

Image123: It's apparently civil only because it is largely ignored by opposing views. i trust the thread champions, they're not that nice. I'm adding this passage to the mix.
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

One of the biggest tragedies of our times is for folks to think up a theory and then go to the bible and make it prove that theory rather than allow the bible to speak for itself.

So, Image123, if that scripture means what you want us to believe, then in answering Anony's question, you will allow the wolf in sheep skin to tear the brother into pieces. In fact like a Pharisee, you will cross the road to the other side, and behave as if you didn't see what was happening.

That is what you will do except the victim is your dear son... possibly your only son. Maybe I should ask what will you do in that case? Then remember that believers are God's dear children.

There is a scripture where Jesus had just lampooned the Pharisees. His disciples approach him and said something like "you are speaking to them like that?" And Jesus is like "And so...?" Not those exact words but I trust you get my drift. There are just too many scriptures that calls Christians to beware of false teachers in the end time. A simple study of Matthew 24 reveals how Jesus emphasised MANY in the texts. Many will be deceived; many false prophets will come; many... do we want to be part of such statistics?

Jude 3 calls us to contend for the truth. Paul commands us to rebuke them soundly. Peter warns of false prophets in the end. John says do not receive them in your homes. In the light of these, do we conclude that all these teachers are saying is allow them to grow, don't touch them, etc.

Certainly not.

That scripture reveals the inadequacy in man to separate good from evil. Its showing us the picture of God's final judgement. It is certainly not teaching complacency, indifference or compromise.

Again allow scripture to speak for itself and then go unto interpret scripture with scripture.

NO NEPA...

NO GEN'...

NO MATCH... Nigerian factor

Depending on goal.com live commentary and nairaland for this game... smh

[size=16pt]F4: A THOUGHT ON THE DEIFICATION OF BELIEVERS[/size]

One of the greatest blessings of sound preaching is that it brings light. Gospel preaching is not entertainment, it is not a "feel good" talk, it's not motivational speaking; neither is it a message of condemnation. Gospel preaching is light. You know you've heard the gospel when you leave with understanding. Such understanding that births strength in the inward man. It comes with renewed inner vigour and a richer appreciation of the works of Jesus on the cross - a renewed love for the Savior. Gospel preaching should also produce repentance and a God enabled commitment to new living. At the height of it all, true gospel preaching will leave the listener with a sense of indebtedness. Such that one cannot repay - so we leave with a great feeling of humility and thankfulness.

On the other hand, a message on the deity of a Christian produces fruits that are miles away from these. Where one is supposed to find humility, it is replaced with pride. Where you ought to find gratitude, the individual is full of pompous talk and boasts, imitating the minister whose message is forever annotated with anecdotes and fables - true and false. Were you ought to find repentance, there is a marked indifference to sin. In fact non Christians love such sermons because it helps build fleshly ego. Where there should be a clear picture of the cross, the listener remembers only the ministers stories and testimonies. The end result is disastrous, because then we have Christians running the street in name alone.

Romans 12 depicts the Christian lifestyle. After a rich evaluation of the cross of Christ and its blessing to the church, Paul in this chapter reminds us of practical Christian duties. Many of the things he said cannot be practised by the Christian who thinks he is a god. He commands believers not to mind high things but associate with men of low estate. A Christan who is a god cannot do this. He says that believers should not think of themselves above what they really are: so much for a doctrine that teaches believers are gods. He says Christians must not curse but bless. The very reason why Christians go cursing around is simply based a false belief that they are more than what they really are, they are gods, their words carry power and thus they can curse. It is a big shame. Paul ends that chapter by admonishing Christians to leave vengeance to God. A Christian who thinks he is a god does not need to obey this; he simply does what deities do: determine an awful judgement on those who offends him. I see how many of them behave; how these preachers talk. One of them went a-witch-slapping-crusade the other day. It's so demeaning.

Today it is the world that is reminding Christians how to behave. Since we no longer have role models in church. My father, who is still a Muslim, tells me that when Pentecostalism started in the early 70s with the SU revivals, they used to be critical of orthodox churches devotion to buildings, ecclesiastical clothing's and heriachies, and their all round "deadness". Today the Pentecostals, under the influence of WOF, are doing worse. Chief among these is the deity of the believer.

Someone wishes to know the extent of a Christians authority. Indeed our authority is derived first from who we are in Christ and our knowledge of these (that has nothing to do with deification of saints) and then our obedience. When the believer faces a situation of challenge, which can include satanic ones, God is faithful to his word to give us a mouth, a wisdom, a scripture and the anointing to still Satan in his tracks. This situation is very different from a situation where the Christian, with a warped understanding of his deity, walks the street, hands akimbo, thinking he can defeat all demons in hell. Stories abound of many who have seen their untimely deaths this way. We trust God to save us in a time of need; we have no confidence in ourselves. This is how Christians have lived for centuries and these are the examples we see in scripture. Nothing more.

The doctrine of the deification of the Christian is only one of the doctrines of demons we have today. It is however about the oldest doctrine because it was part of the message the devil preached to Eve that led to the fall of man. Unfortunately this is the gospel WOF will still have us believe.

MrAnony1: @Trustman and BabaGnoni, we must be careful not to have an "us vs them" mindset when someone asks us a question.

I beg you all; let us not allow this thread to devolve into a petty fight. It has been civil thus far. God bless y'all. Gotta run now

Thank you sir for your admonition. I take it as a word to myself too.

Indeed it was to avoid such "petty fight" that I thought it good to discontinue my conversation with Ihedinobi.

One of the realities some of our brethren who live outside the shores of this country might have lost touch with (this is not intended for Ihedinobi; I don't know where he lives) is that they do not realize the extent of the damage these teachings are doing to our national life at the moment, especially the thinking of our young people.

That's why the objective of this thread must be pursued to a logical end.

BabaGnoni: nora544 *coughs, coughs*
about Demos Shakarian or Richard Shakarian, all that glitters is not gold.
Enough said.

When Mr President is done with Shakarian, he resorts to the Olumba Olumba church. So much for syncretism.

I am not fooled.

Omexonomy: i disagree with 80% of what you wrote. Abraham tithed from looties and booties to melchizedek. And going by that logic we are to tithe from looties and booties or else God will not bless us

Maybe you should have disagreed with her 100%.

I would not be surprised if Alwsystrue was actually responding to me and not the OP, seeing that she used the same manner of numeration I used, responded immediately after I did, and seem to only return to nl anytime I have something to say on tithing.

The summary of her submission is this:

1. Tithe in thanksgiving to God.

2. Tithe as an expression of a right heart.

3. Tithe as a minimum.

4. Tithe in obedience to God.

5. Tithe so you may have peace.

6. Tithe to enjoy blessings.

7. Tithe to provide for the needs of ministers.

None of which has any support of scripture. We must continually watch for doctrines and practices that we promulgate based on needs or sentiments, rather than on sound sound scriptural evidences. Tithing is definitely one of these. I start with the first point above:

1. When you read the story of Abram tithing, you certainly can conclude and call it thanksgiving. But when God instituted tithing as a law, was it also thanksgiving? Even Malachi 3 shows us that tithing was a duty under the law and not a form of thanksgiving.

2. Tithing as an expression of a right heart is a very unscriptural way of tithing because there is no scripture that teaches this. The truth of the matter is that under the law, the system of giving was tithing, offerings and firstfruits. In the time of grace, this changed to free will giving only. So that 2cor 9:7 teaches giving with a heart of gratitude and with no compulsion. It is this giving that denotes a right heart. Tithing on the other hand nullifies the point in 2 Cor 9:7 bc tithing implies compulsive giving.

3. Tithing as a minimum is another favorite line for tithers and tithe collectors. Again no scripture in the bible teaches this. The disciples gave 100%. But does Acts record they continued to give like this? Does it say if you cannot give 100%, pls give 10%? The answer is no.

4. Truth is that those who tithe their income are actually disobeying God bc no scripture teaches this. God's command was that his holy tithe was to be from fruit of the tree, seed of the land and tenth of the herd, Lev 27:30-33. God never asked anyone for a tenth of salary in the bible. Modern monetary tithing are the invention of men, based on men's doctrine.

5. Alwaystrue always accuses me of lacking peace because I am always available to proffer extinguishers for her tithing doctrines. If people have guilt for not tithing it is bc they had been made to believe a lie for a long time. When the lie is replaced by truth, their peace will return. That is my testimony.

6. Tithing to enjoy blessings is the biggest of all lies. Fortunately, neither Jesus or any of the apostles tithed and they cannot be said to be cursed. Truth is that a new dispensation of grace does not derive blessings from works of the law, rather it gets it from the cross. The fact that you are born again shows you are blessed already. Don't run around looking for what is not lost.

7. The bible records how Christian ministers are to be provide for. Tithing is not one of them. Matthew 10 and Luke 10 records Jesus explaining to ministers he sent out to receive only such as is given to them. In other words they were to live off free will giving. 1 Cor 9 records Paul teaching on ministers rumeneration, he forgot to mention tithes. Rather he harps on free will giving.

Tithing is a Jewish practice that is long obsolete since the cross. Those who teach modern day monetary tithing are thieves and robbers.

The message the OP heard is a message I am conversant with. It is becoming leading topics in charismatic churches today for obvious reasons. We ought to ask these preachers if Jesus preached such and how many times did he emphasise it. There are numerous scriptures in the NT on giving, not one mentioned tithing. Why do we wish to re write the bible?