₦airaland Forum

lalasticlalaa: I was in church today at my branch of Redeem Christian Church of God.and the sermon touched me.
I haven't been paying my tithe since although I don't really earn much.
But the sermon centred on giving.
So I have made up my mind to start paying my tithe complete from next Sunday.

So I want nairalanders to please tell me the benefits of tithing.
Thanks.

Maybe you should ask your pastor when and where did

1. Jesus preach a sermon on tithing. I would appreciate it if he doesn't mention Mathew 23:23, where Jesus mentioned tithing as a Jewish practise in passing.

2. Paul, Peter or any of the other apostles preach a message on tithing.

So why is he preaching on tithing?

For a brief study on why you shouldn't tithe today, refer to www.yesufu..com/2014/03/the-due-order-tithe-is-defined.html?m=1

That article is the first of a seven series on tithing. You may study them at your leisure.

For a thorough understanding of where the error of tithing originated from, follow this ongoing discuss on Word of Faith www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents

I replicate this fine post here to crown discussions on F3 up and for readers who might have missed it before.

trustman: [size=16pt]MY ADDITIONAL SUBMISSION ON F3: WEALTH/PROSPERITY[/size]


The Problem With The Prosperity Gospel

“Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” Luke 12:15

“For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.” Hebrews 13:14

Word of Faith promises its followers wealth and prosperity. WoF preachers teach their followers that they can use their faith to acquire material abundance. According to them, financial blessing is a guaranteed result of faith in God.

To them man has creative power with our spoken words because we are “little gods” and God has delegated sovereignty to us. In their ‘theology’ God cannot act on His own; He needs man’s ‘faith’ expressed through words to act. In fact, they believe man is the master of his destiny and can get what he wants by applying the ‘right’ formula. So getting wealth too is hinged on ‘using’ the right system.

Kenneth HagIn said: "Believe it in your heart, say it with your mouth, that's the principal of faith and you can have what you say."

The following are from the website of Kenneth Copeland Ministry (www.kcm.org):

“Throughout the Word, God plainly shows that His will is for His covenant people to have a surplus of prosperity.’

“Physical prosperity is twofold—health and wealth. Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law—sickness, poverty and death (Deuteronomy 28: 15-61). Health and wealth belong to the believer.”

Kenneth Copeland has also said:
- "The man who holds to poverty rejects the establishment of the covenant. The man who
holds to the covenant rejects poverty”.
- “Poverty is an evil spirit”
- "Prosperity is a major requirement in the establishment of God’s will,"
and "God’s will for His people today is abundance"


The following is from Joel & Victoria Osteen’s Blog

Don’t Settle for Beans and Rice
Posted by Joel Osteen on 3/28/2014
One time, I received a letter from a young couple. They had both been raised in low-income families. All they saw modeled growing up was lack and struggle. Their families had accepted this lifestyle, but not this couple. They had been coming to Lakewood. They didn't have a "not enough" mentality; they had an abundance mentality. They knew God had a Promised Land of blessing in store for them. So, they took a step of faith. … … …

According to Joel Osteen in his book YOUR BEST LIFE NOW:
- “God wants to increase you financially, by giving you promotions, fresh ideas and
creativity” (p. 5),
- “He wants you to live in abundance. He wants to give you the desires of your
heart…God is turning things around in your favor” (p. 78).

Does Scripture agree with these positions?
Another major issue is this: did the Lord Jesus and the Apostles put a lot of emphasis on financial prosperity?

The Lord Jesus warned in Luke 12: 15 –“Then he said to them, “Watch out and guard yourself from all types of greed, because one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
In Matthew 6:19 – 21, He also said: “Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”.

Apostle Paul had these to say:
A true Christian leader must not be a lover of money (1 Timothy 3:2-3).
The Christian is to be content with whatever he has (1 Timothy 6: 6-.
The Christian is warned of the danger of the desire to get rich and to flee (1Timothy 6:9-11).

James tells us:
Being poor is a high position while being rich is a low position (James 1:9-10).

What we see is that, in sharp contrast to the WoF's emphasis on gaining money and possessions, the Christian is challenged to regard worldly riches as secondary to things of eternal value. The MAJOR REASON Jesus came was to take care of man’s greatest problem and that problem is not physical but spiritual. Concentrating on the physical issues of life belittles the work Christ came to do. A look at the life of Jesus, the apostles and the early church (a look at the book of Acts is a good starting point) and their stance on wealth and prosperity should show not only how they viewed these but also what the pattern for the Christian and church today should be. The focus of the Christian should be on who and what God is, not on the things we can get from Him. True riches are things money cannot buy; that is what the Lord and the Apostles encourage the Christian to seek for.

Now, did the disciples and apostles receive an abundant life the way the WoF preachers of today proclaim?
Was it that they somehow did not have the ‘revelation knowledge’ for prosperity gospel?
So where and how did these prosperity preachers of WoF get their understanding from? From “fresh revelations”, given to them by who?

Satan’s Strategy
One of the strategies of Satan is to get the believer to have his eyes on wealth and possessions. When he succeeds the believer becomes a casualty in his Christian life. Like someone aptly noted:
“Hastening for wealth is MATERIALISM – the excessive desire for things, whether for a more expensive car, a more ostentatious home, designer clothes, or just more money. … … … Much like an addictive drug, the snare of materialism amounts to a ceaseless roller coaster ride between exhilaration and misery”.

Lusting after material things is in reality shifting of focus from God to things. The WoF movement encourages this. It should be clear to any discerning Christian that that shift of focus is in fact sin.

The promise to make wealthy through a quick route excites the average person and the WoF preachers capitalize on this. The attractive viewpoint of divinely created wealth easy to get by all who will follow the ‘right formula’ is also a major subject matter of many a metaphysical school of thought to which WoF has been linked. The Bible teaches radically different things about what prosperity is, and how believers are to think of and go after material wealth.

There is certainly something wrong with building doctrines on twisted interpretations and applications of scriptural passages. This is what the WoF teachers do in order to support their erroneous position on acquisition of wealth. The Bible is full of passages warning about the deceitfulness of riches and money, yet the WoF preachers drive Christians down that same route.
A major problem with the wealth/prosperity gospel is that is seeks to apply a ‘theology’ that is really no theology at all. Instead it has incorporated metaphysical ideas into Christianity and with ‘Christian language’ lures many away from the true gospel into that which is not the gospel at all. Unlike what the WoF preachers teach, it is God, in the exercise of his sovereign will, who bestows on the believer what he wants. Ultimately we receive from him in GRACE and do not create our own world.

Following Jesus' litmus test of knowing a false prophet in Matthew 7, I believe that God has put enough in every Christian to discern who is true and who is false. Its simple: what fruit are they bearing?

Some of the most outrageous practices in Christendom is found in WOF churches. If Christians in these churches have ears to hear, they ought to be asking questions. Take the Nigerian case in point: COZA. Ese Walters disclosure remains an allegation until Biodun Fatoyinbo gives us his "robust" reply. Nonetheless if you are a member of that church, you should be asking questions. If you are like Japhet Omojuwa, a former member of COZA Abuja, you would be writing probing articles. If you are like me, DrummaBoy, you would be perusing the theological liberty that permits the kind of super grace Fatoyinbo allegedly finds security in.

Whatever kind of Christian you are, God by his Spirit has given us enough to discern the fruit of men's action and to ascertain that they are true prophets. Someone here claims that he is of the same family with WOFs. I do not doubt the fact that some are genuine Christians. What I am certain of is that anyone under the spell of WOF is a deceived Christian.

This is my point: the only reason one might not be able to learn that the WOF doctrine is falsehood is if such a person is not a Christian at all. One might not discover in many years of being under the spell, but one day, one will find out the source of these obnoxious fruits.

The blessing of a thread like this is that it quickens the process of discovery. I believe if any true seeker goes through the 20 points to be discussed on this thread, such a person is certain to be liberated. That is the edification I trust will come to our readers.

@BabaGnoni, excellent submission.

frosbel: Thank you Brother , we have derived authority through obedience to the faith.

Spot on!

Nice to see you on this thread frosbel. I had missed your contribution in the "defunct" one. But here you are now.

@trustman and BabaGnoni

I believe I have provided all the exhibits I need to provide on F3. Please indicate when you are ready to proceed to F4. I have no more comments for now.

ihedinobi2:
Lol @ popularity. There is no time that violence of any kind is not popular. Goshen360 and frosbel did not win poster of the year (one or both more than once) in this section for being docile and accommodating. Your positions are popular enough and so is this thread. You'll never lack for popularity when you make war against visible human beings. It's far less so when you fight the invisible.

You would realize that the post you just responded to had more to say than "popularity", we were discussing naming names; remember? Let me assume that by nit referring to that subject, we understand each well enough along those lines. As for popularity, I had already said the thread "does not need popularity". So your suggestions on frosbel or goshen is really not needed.

ihedinobi2:
Keep the names if you wish. It's "your" thread. I am here because I want to see whether there is any truth in the arguments here. I have already made clear that I do not consider the thread edifying. That is not an opinion that you are required to share. All I expect of you is collaboration in the examination of your views. If you cannot or will not give that, I totally respect your right to ignore me and my questions and observations.

Actually the personalization of this thread with the use of phrases like "my" or "our thread" is intentional. In these days when people avoid any offence and seek only success, popularity and fame, I consider it wise to put my name on a thread like this that naturally will be called contentious and seen as ignominious becuase such is not what people usually do.

Your opinion that the thread is not edifying is also "yours". No one can deny you "your" right in that regard.

Actually the discussion with you is soon drawing to an end. The thread must soon proceed to the next item: F4. You have served well as an "interlude" to the discuss and for that I thank you.

ihedinobi2:
I think you may have gotten quite a ways ahead of yourself and even me in the above response. Questions are not an argument. I did not state in that post that Jesus's words can or cannot be used to draw a parallel to what this thread is doing.

Maybe we should ask you why you asked those questions, if it is not to disprove the positions on this thread. Which are namely: do not names; Jesus visited his enemies, who eventually crucified him; and you guyz are not imitating Christ on a thread like this. If these are not the position you were seeking to state through your questions, I ask: what then are they?

ihedinobi2:
If Jesus went to the homes of the people he denounced so terribly, does that not raise a question concerning the "not visiting a heretic's home" part? Bonus question, if you please.

Apparently the above statement has only proven my last reponse above. You should realize that those discussing on this thread are not undergraduates. So you cannot come here, say something and think we do not know where you are headed. As per visiting heretics, I refer you to read my last response and 2 John 11-12.

ihedinobi2:
I didn't rush off to post, bro. I attempted to read and apart from the difficulty in the visuals of each post, there were too many objections and whatnot to keep up with. What I have done is to try and take issues one at a time and enable simpler, less anxious and less aggressive discussion.

It is commendable on your part. I do not deny that the volume of exhibits on the thread so far is much, however even a skip through will give you a clear idea of what we are saying considering the fact that we have provided bolds on some text that are important.

ihedinobi2:
Ok then. My response to him is my response to you as well, then

Actually you have not responded to BabaGnoni at all. All I see is you avoiding questions posed at you even though you have no trouble posing questions to others.

ihedinobi2: For the first passage, I do not see any "naming". Nicodemus was a Pharisee that Jesus met personally and knew of. So was Simon and possibly a few others but I see none of their names or any others.

Okay. I gerrit now. The doctrine is NEVER NAME NAMES. You can call them brood of vipers. You can call them hypocrites. You can call them wolves in sheep skin. You can even label what they preach as WOF and vilify them as prosperity preachers but NEVER YOU NAME THEIR NAME. Because that will be unchristlike.

In Rev. 2:6, 14-15, Jesus referred to a sect and their teachings as doctrine of Nicolaitines. Church history tell us that this sect was named after their leader Nicolas.

In the same Revelation, this same Jesus condemned a woman called Jezebel along with her followers.

This Jesus had suddenly forgotten his practise of vague generalities and seem to have become more specific.

Lest we think it was only Jesus that named names, hear his apostles:

In 2 Timothy 4:14, Paul refers to one Alexander the Coppersmith who did him much evil.

In Titis 1:12 Paul refer to some Cretans as false teachers.

In 3John 1:9, John refers to one Diotrephus, whom he claimed loved to lord it over the flock of Christ.

And there are others.

THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE, PARTICULARLY THE NT, THAT SAYS CHRISTIANS MUST NOT NAME NAMES WHEN DISCUSSING FALSE PROPHETS AND THEIR DOCTRINES. IF THERE ONE, DO SUPPLY IT NOW.

The tendency in these days when we preach and do not want to offend is to preach and if at all we must criticize then we should use vague generalities. Never name names. Nonsense. That is the reason our preaching have no effect, move no one, causes no offense and changes no society. The preaching of the apostles that turned cities upside down, went to the root of the errors in those cities. Acts 16, Paul and Silas knew that their preaching will hurt idol making business. They preached anyway and the rest is history...

I am sorry to burst your bubble friend, this thread is not like others. It doesn't need popularity; its concerned with enunciating truth for posterity. Forget it, the names will remain.

ihedinobi2: @BabaGnoni
@DrummaBoy

The list is actually incomplete. There is trustman whom I had requested you hold us all responsible for this thread. He has however responded to you nontheless.

ihedinobi2: Can any of you give me some examples of places where Jesus was "naming and shaming" Pharisees and religious leaders of His day? Can any of you explain how and why He accepted their invitations to their homes and their hospitality and their own personal visits to Him? Can any of you show me parallels between what you're doing and what He did in His day?

trustman has supplied some scriptures that documented Jesus critical of religious leaders of his days. Since Q and A is not exclusively reserved for you, you might as well explain to us why what Jesus said in those scriptures cannot serve as a parallel for what we are doing here.

Also, I have no apologies for naming anyone in this thread. If a man is truly man enough he would show himself responsible for his words, actions and doctrine. This is what I did when I gave you a list of names to hold responsible for this thread. If however a man feels shamed when his words, actions and doctrine is brought under scrutiny, maybe he is not supposed to be doing it afterall. And his contining in this might be because no one has held him responsible in the past.

Jesus accepted the invite of Pharisees. Yes. But it didnt stop him from calling them hypocrites to their faces. The scripture BabaGnoni provided shows clearly why we shouldn't visit the home of a heretic. But if at all we will, we cannot compromise the truth. Thus we have this thread.

10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
2 John:10-11 NIV

ihedinobi2:

@topic

A lot has been and is being said and I find the thread a bit too tedious to read. I think I'll take things in bite sizes.

To start with, let me warn everyone who will judge my responses to be very conscious of my first post on this thread.

We are conscious of your first post, especially that part where you said you also have noticed somethings about WOF, like the true nature of faith. If you will persevere a little longer on this thread, I can assure you to learn more. But while you want us to be conscious of what you have written, you have not studied the thread that is just 4 pages (you say find it tedious to read) but simply rushed off to post. Is that being "conscious" of what others have written?

ihedinobi2:
Now, I have one question: Is it biblical to speak to the situations and circumstances that you face and command them to fit a pattern? Or rather, how does the Bible tell us to deal with the adverse circumstances of our lives?

[i]Edit: if this question has been answered in any form on this thread already, a quote or reference to the particular post where it was answered will do. You need not repeat yourself. If the post is a long one, a quote containing the answer, that is, a culling of the portion containing the answer, would be far more appreciated than a link or a quote of the whole post.

As for the remainder of your post, I believe BabaGnoni last post, directed at you, is a sufficient response. I have therefore edited my former post here to accommodate his submission.

BabaGnoni: ^^^
https://s27.postimg.org/5u76wzk37/clap.gif!

Thank you. Thank you...

Pastor Kun: @trustman, drummaboy & babagnoni
Keep up the good work, really insightful and revealings posts going on in this thread.

Thank you Pastor Kun

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL[/size]

Sometimes I think have written too much on the prosperity gospel but at the same time I feel I have not said enough. Recently I was discussing with a Christian brother about church doctrines generally. When I told him I do not believe in a gospel of prosperity he was taken aback. He agreed that the flamboyance and boast many prosperity Gospellers display is wrong but that God wants us to be rich. I told him it was not true but a lie of the devil. I am convinced now that the way satan plans these lies is to start believers off to thinking there is nothing wrong with riches and that they can pursue it all they like.

The truth is that the term “prosperity gospel” did not originate from the Word of Faith preachers; rather it came from their critics. However, in their bid to prove their veracity, many WOF adherents agree that the gospel they believe and preach is actually a prosperity gospel. This is an admission that is good in itself because the moment they can see that these teaching are actually anti-Christ, they would desist from them.

I would leave the biblical exegesis on why the prosperity gospel is wrong to others to do (and I might be led to do some later too) but for this post, I will remove quotes from two important letter I wrote in my life recently. One of the letters is titled “Letter to My Pastor(s)”. This was a letter I wrote to leaders of a former church I attended. In it I spoke about the effect of the prosperity gospel on the Christian church in Nigeria. The second letter is titled “My Concern for all the Churches”. This was a letter I delivered to the leadership of the church I presently I attend. In that letter I gave a little background to what I believe is a prosperity gospel. I will quote the latter letter first.

From “My Concern for all the Churches”:

The Prosperity Gospel in Nigerian Churches

Before we can understand the prosperity gospel we must understand it roots. The gospel of prosperity teaches that health and wealth are the “rights” of Christians today, and that if Christians are not healthy and wealthy there is something essentially wrong with their faith. This teaching finds its origin in the Word of Faith movement for which the late Kenneth Hagin is believed to be the originator. Careful research has shown that Kenneth Hagin is not actually the “founder” of this teaching. Hagin himself was influenced by E. W. Kenyon, who himself was influenced by Phinehas Quimby, a 19th century New Thought teacher.

The New Thought doctrine is one that teaches that human beings can have control over the outcome of their lives (they need not depend on God). And that through metaphysical exercises, mind control and positive speaking, human beings can control “forces” in the world to bring good health, wealth and success into their lives. New Thought teachings are essentially the doctrine the Christian Science sect teach also. The New Thought Movement has since dissociated itself from the bible. This is the root of Kenneth Hagin’s teachings except that he would later base these New Thought teachings on the bible especially Mark 11:24.

Until his death a few years ago, Kenneth Hagin enjoyed great success in ministry with many preachers from third world countries being influenced by his books, meetings and bible school. Today, most churches with one man as president and founder, in Nigeria, have Hagin and his sort of ministry as their example. Kenneth Hagin himself never taught full blown prosperity messages but his teaching centered on man and his well being, contrary to the teaching of the bible that was about God and his eternal purposes for all humanity. These doctrines on man and his well being are what have metamorphosed into what we know as prosperity teachings today. They are the doctrines taught in charismatic churches around the world today. We only need to listen to radio jingles from churches to prove this.

The churches that have not been directly influenced by the prosperity gospel in Nigeria are the churches that some disparage as “orthodox”. Churches like the Roman Catholic Church, Anglican Communion, Methodist Church, Baptist Church, Seventh Day Adventists, Church of Christ, etc. These churches became “insulated” from these teachings on prosperity because their preachers would usually go through a well designed theological curriculum that ensured that what is taught to the people is what is “orthodox” and not something new and enticing. But it has been discovered that even some of these so called orthodox churches are becoming influenced by the prosperity message.

When we realize that most of the churches that spring up today, with one man coming with a certain “call” to ministry, do not have their preachers undergoing any kind of theological training, we understand better why they become susceptible to these new teachings. At the moment in Nigeria, there is some sort of pandemic because churches are outdoing each other to “open” new branches in a frenzied measure to build network of churches. So that when one goes into a neighborhood, we could find as much churches around as we have residences. And in each of these churches we find untrained men teaching people a so called “gospel”.

When you listen carefully to what is being taught we discover that they are telling of a certain “good news”; news that say God has promised us health and wealth. When the message is compared to the message of the bible, especially the New Testament that was written for our instruction in this dispensation, we realize that there is a great deal of difference. Further investigation into why there are churches proliferating the society reveals that it is all for pecuniary gain.

From “Letters to my Pastors”:

Prosperity Gospel

This is what David Prior, an Anglican Vicar, wrote on the prosperity teaching in his book, Bedrock(1985):

[b]There is a growing welter of teaching in certain circles who reject (the doctrine of shame and suffering in the gospel). Success, health, happiness, prosperity are all seen as expected rights for the children of God’s kingdom. This prosperity-teaching gains numerous adherents precisely because it panders to our lower nature. It represents what we want to hear, not what we need to hear. It appeals to two kinds of Christian in particular – to those who enjoy a fairly affluent standard of living and need to rationalize or justify it; and it has understandable attraction for those who have been deprived of life’s good things and feel they deserve a better deal. When we realize that most Christians are included within these two groupings, we can appreciate the popularity of such teaching. I know this to be true because I know my own heart.

When I am going through the mill, or have for some time been bearing considerable strain on behalf of others, my lower nature screams to me: “You deserve a break; you have earned it” so my own heart panders to my pride: I think I have worked hard enough to merit God’s blessing in some tangible way. Instead of responding with the attitude commanded, not just commended, by Jesus – “we have only done our duty” – I hold my good deeds up before God and effectively tell him to give me a break, a bonus or a blessing. It does not require much insight to recognize this as a thinly-disguised form of self-interest. Its most serious aspect, however, is the way it undercuts the very foundation of the Gospel of God’s grace. At no stage do we deserve anything from God; everything we have is a gift of his love, completely undeserved. From beginning to end, from our justification to our glorification, we depend on the grace of God who, out of his great love and mercy, constantly loads us with daily benefits.
[/b]
I took my time to quote this man because this brief thought on the danger of prosperity gospel liberated me from its shackles. I would later read Prosperity and the Coming Apocalypse by Jim Baker, a former prosperity proponent whom God allowed to serve time in prison and then came out to tell the world that all he had been preaching for some 25 years was wrong. The Heritage Village Baker built in the United States cannot be compared to anything our mega churches are building today whether they be at the Redeemed Camp, The Deeper Life Camp Ground, or Canaan Land. It took Baker a long time to realize that God did not call him to build structures but men’s lives through the teaching of the grace of God.

Whenever Bishop Elomobor comes to (this Church) I am deeply grieved. And I have made up my mind that when he comes next, I would not be in the service that day (I understand I would not be missed). Is there nobody alive to remind this man that this was the same path Archbishop Benson Idahosa walked into his grave? If Pastor ----- thinks this man is a man worth hearing, why does he not teach and practice everything he does? The first time I listened to him, he went on and on about how he used to preach for Cecilia Ibru and other top business moguls. The next thing we heard was that this woman had been arrested and jailed for corrupt practices in the bank she owned. On the Bishop’s subsequent visit, he did not make reference to that, rather it was now time to explain how he dines and wines with those in the seat of power: escorting the Vice-president to the US and such like.

Today, the government of Goodluck Jonathan is going down in history as the most corrupt in our nation’s history. I concluded the last time I heard him that Bishop Elemobor is a Balaam, a disobedient prophet, who will do well to heed the donkey’s voice or his end will not be any different from that of that prophet of scripture. Most people will say prosperity teachers are the likes of David Oyedepo and Ayo Oritsejafor but the truth is that most Pentecostal preachers are prosperity gospellers. When the doctrine of God’s grace as exemplified by the death of Jesus to secure a sure salvation for Christians is belittled to getting healed and succeeding in life, such a preacher no matter how conservative they may seem is a prosperity gospeller. And that is why no one dares criticize them in our churches today, so as not be seen as blaspheming God.

The gospel of Jesus tells us of what Christ did for us on the cross, how we obtained an eternal salvation from it, how we must look forward to a sure and certain kingdom to come, how this thoughts must engender a grateful spirit within us shown forth in worship and holy living, and how we must trust God as our Father for our day by day living, which would include provision and the meeting of our needs. It is when the latter, that should be preached as extra benefits i.e. jara , is taught as the central gospel a church must know, then we regard such preachers as prosperity gospellers. They claim to bring good news but the good news has only benefit in this life and little or no benefit for the life to come.

That is why in my message to the Prayer team and hospital ministry I explained that while the prosperity gospel was false doctrine, the true doctrine, that of Eternal Security (The Perseverance of the Saints), is the real prosperity God has secured for us. I hinged Eternal Security on four doctrines, that of Justification, Election, Predestination, and Eternal Life (Refer to the added notes). Personally, understanding of those doctrines liberated me spiritually and that is why one can hold the things of these world lightly, while looking up to those things which are above.

END.

[size=16pt]THE RISE AND FALL OF JIM BAKKER[/size]

Remember Jim Bakker? Countless people do. However, if you are too young to know about Bakker and the scandal that befell him (not so different from Tiger Woods), you really need to inform yourself. A good place to start is the Wikipedia article which can be found at this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker

As a teenager, I was an occasional viewer of the Praise the Lord broadcast during the 1970s and as a college student in early 1980s. Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were the first televangelists I can really remember, although they did follow in the footsteps of Oral Roberts and others.

I grew up in a town just three hours from Heritage USA — the Bakker’s massive complex. Here’s an excerpt from the Wikipedia article that describes it:

By the early 1980s the Bakkers had built Heritage USA in Fort Mill, South Carolina (south of Charlotte), then the third most successful theme park in the U.S., and a satellite system to distribute their network 24 hours a day across the country. Contributions requested from viewers were estimated to exceed $1 million a week, with proceeds to go to expanding the theme park and mission of PTL.

I must admit that I was skeptical about the Bakkers at the time. It seemed to be only about MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!!! Interestingly, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker were co-founders of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, (TBN), along with Paul and Jan Crouch. Who knew that TBN would team up with charismatic preachers to promote what would become known as “The Prosperity Gospel”…

Here’s what I consider to be the most important information in the Wiki article on Jim Bakker:

Bakker has renounced his past teachings on prosperity theology, they were wrong. In his 1996 book, I Was Wrong, he admitted that the first time he actually read the Bible all the way through was in prison, and that it made him realize he had taken certain passages out of context – passages which he had used as “proof texts” to back up his prosperity teachings. He wrote:

“The more I studied the Bible, however, I had to admit that the prosperity message did not line up with the tenor of Scripture. My heart was crushd to think that I led so many people astray. I was appalled that I could have been so wrong, and I was deeply grateful that God had not struck me dead as a false prophet.”

It’s fascinating to listen to today’s prosperity preachers and remember that Jim Bakker was probably more prominent and more respected than they. Oh, how the mighty can fall!!!

At the age of 49, Jim Bakker was sentenced to a 45 year prison term. He was truly a broken man. As the Wiki article explains, Bakker served a five year prison term and then was released. It seems God used those difficult years to teach Jim Bakker about “true Christianity”.

Jim Bakker Reveals the Truth About the Prosperity Gospel! Part 2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYb6umBZxZA

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/01/14/jim-bakker-renounces-the-prosperity-gospel-as-a-lie/

Before I present this testimony I want to say upfront that I do not agree with everything Femi Aribisala teaches. I think his rejection of Apostle Paul's epistles as inspired scripture is error. Nevertheless what he has to say on a leading RCCG Pastor is ver instructive and there are things to learn from it:

[size=16pt]
THE TESTIMONY OF FEMI ARIBISALA ON J.T. KALEJAIYE
[/size]
I have never seen a man so totally anointed with the raw power of God.

Pastor J.T. Kalejaiye of the Redeemed Christian Church of God might not remember me. But God used him to confirm my healing ministry at its inception. In the late 1990’s, while I was still a member of Victory Parish of Redeemed, Victoria Island, Lagos, Pastor Kalejaiye came to minister on two consecutive days. The pastor revolutionised my understanding of Christian ministry. I have never seen a man so totally anointed with the raw power of God.



Amazing service

I had never heard of Pastor Kalejaiye before that visit. He started the service by taking off his jacket; asking an usherette to keep it for him. But instead of handing it over, he flapped it at her. The lady practically somersaulted and fell to the ground. Kalejaiye then declared that everybody who witnessed that incident was a candidate for a miracle.

He preached a solid message on Abraham and Lot, and I hung on every word. Then, he ministered to the sick. As the power of God identified them dramatically, he would ask them to look into his eyes, or touch the hem of his garment. Immediately they did, they would be slain under the anointing. Some were put to sleep for the entire service. Kalejaiye told us the Holy Spirit was busy conducting surgeries on them.

Sometime during the service, a lady caught his attention. Kalejaiye suddenly took out his handkerchief and threw it at her. Before it reached her, the power of God picked her up and then cushioned her to the floor. Kalejaiye said the Holy Spirit had identified her for healing.

Later, he asked us to hold up our right hands while he asked the Lord to identify those he would anoint with special healing power. Suddenly, my right hand became electrically-charged. Before I knew it, the power of God literally picked me up and flung me unto the empty set of chairs behind me. The ushers quickly carried me to the pastor. I was surprised to discover I was the only person in the entire church who had that particular experience. Kalejaiye asked me what happened. He then confirmed that God had called me to a healing ministry. He said the Lord would use my right hand for mighty signs and wonders. Then he prayed for me.

At the end of the service, I went back home in bewilderment. I asked the Lord: “Is this man your son? Was he using your power or something else?” The Lord replied: “Did he do anything without scriptural foundation?” I could not but agree that nothing he did contradicted what Jesus did in the scriptures. But they were nevertheless astonishing.



Deliverance service

The Sunday service next morning was no less eventful. Pastor Kalejaiye began by asking that anybody suffering from demonic oppression should come out for deliverance. Of course, nobody responded, not wanting to be stigmatised. He then told us to keep quiet while he spoke to God about it. He asked the Lord to identify those concerned by his power.

Suddenly, there was pandemonium in the church. In particular, “big men” in flowing agbadas started screaming at the top of their lungs and spinning like tops. The ushers then carried them to the pastor and he prayed for them. I am unreliably informed that some of those “big men” were so mortified, they insisted Kalejaiye should not be invited back to Victory Parish.

Kalejaiye preached another insightful message. Nevertheless, the highlight of the service was again the manifestation of the power of God. He observed that churches need money in order to operate effectively. Therefore, he asked the ushers for a carton of envelopes. He laid his hands on them and asked for three volunteers to confirm they were now anointed. All they had to do was to pick one of the envelopes.

None succeeded in doing so. As each one of them touched the envelopes, they were instantaneously slain under the anointing. This demonstration certainly made believers out of us. Then, he asked for twelve people who were prepared to give our parish 500,000 naira each. I did not know there were so many rich people in the church. Twice that number made a beeline for the pastor to make the pledges.



Superlative service

I told a friend of mine, Pastor Peter Akalamudo of RCCG, about Pastor Kalejaiye’s outstanding ministry. He too then insisted on inviting him to their Resurrection Parish (Big Tent), in Lekki, Lagos. We went together to see Pastor Kalejaiye at his parish in Idimu, Lagos. When Kalejaiye saw me, he asked me if the signs had started manifesting with my right hand. I told him I had seen nothing yet. He told me not to worry; they would soon commence. He then drew our attention to a curious problem he was dealing with.

People were dumping dead bodies in his church at night, expecting him to raise them from the dead. As a result, he had to bring the matter to the attention of the local police, and was sometimes saddled with the burden of having to bury the dead.

Pastor Kalejaiye accepted Pastor Peter’s invitation, and that service was again exemplary. He preached another sound message, backed by yet another superlative display of the healing power of God. After he had finished his ministration and gone to sit down, Pastor Kalejaiye returned to the podium with one specific request. He asked an usherette to beckon to me. I was in the front row; so I quickly climbed the stage. He asked me to raise my right hand while he prayed for me again. I only heard the beginning of the prayer. There was a loud whoosh and I went down under the anointing.



The denouement

I did not see Pastor Kalejaiye again until ten years later. It was at a “Power-Link Anointing Service” at a Victoria Island, Lagos parish of Redeemed. I wanted to tell him how God had since confirmed his word to me. But I was so disappointed in the service, I decided against it.

The anointing was virtually non-existent. There was now no tangible manifestation of the spirit and power of God. The message was pathetic. It was all about Kalejaiye and not about Jesus. Essentially, he told us how rich he had become. He said he never has anything less than a 200 naira note in his wallet. He said he spends at least 70 days abroad every year. He said if anyone wants to buy a Toyota in his parish, he would personally upgrade it to a Mercedes-Benz.

Indeed, a colleague who attended another service said Kalejaiye claimed he drove past a car-dealership and a car on display called out to him: “Kale, Kale, Kale.” He responded by turning around and driving to the showroom. He then bought the vehicle that allegedly called him, which just happened to be a Hummer; a very expensive American Jeep.

Pastor Kalejaiye ended the service I attended by decreeing we were all going to buy brand-new cars miraculously. He directed we should stretch out our legs and hold the steering-wheels of our imaginary cars. We then turned on the ignitions simultaneously, started the engines and “drove around” in our brand-new cars.

http://www.femiaribisala.com/practical-christianity/231-the-extraordinary-ministry-of-pastor-j-t-kalejaiye

For F3, I have three exhibits to present to prove that the prosperity theses of WOF is not just a false gospel but the working of the antichrist. They are:

1. The testimony of Femi Aribisala on a leading Redeemed Pastor.
2. The story of Jim Bakker.
3. My summation of it all according to scriptures.

Stay tuned.

ihedinobi2: Interesting thread. The only problem with it is that it isn't meant to edify judging by the animosity on display. I wonder if any of the brothers speaking has thought to stop and imagine whether the same words that they use would have been Jesus's choice were He the one addressing the issue here.

Going to try to read up all the posts and catch up before joining the conversation fully.

Morning sir,

Thank you for dropping in and my hope is that you will carry on with us because we are just starting.

On the issue of animosity, the last thread I opened, bearing the same name but lost to Seun's "accident" did generate to animosity and save for the loss of information, I am sometimes thankful that thread was wiped out.

Because of the lessons I learnt from that thread I was determined to ensure that my posts on this one was devoid of animosity. I would however appreciate it if you can refer me to any animosity myself, BabaG and trustman - who for me are the chief discussants on this thread and who anyone coming here should hold responsible for the direction the thread leads. Pls refer us to it and we would either rephrase or explain why the use of such words.

The last thread was the moment of truth for WOF, that theme continues although with a name change. Our hope is that Nigerian Christians will have sufficuent information to work with in serving God. This thread is seeking to provide that.

As for what Jesus would have said today... I can assure you they would not be the kind of diplomatic words we use here: the NT has sufficient documentation of what Jesus said.

BluIvy: Brother you have no idea how this is costing at this moment. I had chosen to leave some of these pastors and I have been cursed and some have prayed for my death hence I find it hard to understand the authority of some of these so called Mogs to pray for the death of another believer just because you leave their fold and refuse to be led by the blind. But as I said our God will prevail through all of this.

I have not read the thread yet I promise to do that this weekend i have been very busy since.

Welcome to the club.

Some ten years ago I could have been bothered about the titles some pastors bandy around. Today, I careless. When I see a minister who finds security in the title he possesses, I am almost sure he carries nothing.

On the issue of cursing and death threats. Its not new. Usually its the last resort. But its also our opportunity to build our faith. I cannot count how many times I have faced issues at the threat of death only to come out alive. Next time, I face these issues, they are no longer issues.

At the moment, if there is anyone who still puts his trust in pastors, that person is to be pitied. What will keep the individual Christian today is to know God for yourself. The Christian environment is bleak in this country.

I hope you get around to study that thread. Myself and two other guys are doing a thorough study of a movement/doctrine which we believe is at the root of the problem with our churches. At the end you will find out that title or MOG is not even the problem.

You may also read up articles on my blog (see signature below) where I discuss sundry issues on religion and politics.

Cheers.

BluIvy: Thanks. I agree ordinarily this would not bother me but the use of this title has brought a new wave of "manipulative" tactics in the house of God. And a mightier than thou attitude to those who are suppose to be humble servants of God. This troubles my soul! But maybe its nothing really!

I need to chill!

Thank you Blu for thanking me. I cannot remember anyone thanking me on nl in a long time. And for that I will add this:

The 16th century protestant revolution resulted in three primary doctrines

1. Sola Scriptura: Authority of scripture in all matters of life and ministry.
2. Justification by faith: rediscovering the Pauline gospel.
3. Priesthood of all Believers: Ending the hegemony of Catholic priests over the laity and encouraging all Christian to know truth for themselves. Result: equality.

Its the priesthood of all believers that we have lost today that makes some MOG and others "ordinary" children of God. In fact the church today have lost the protestant emphasis on these three mighty dictrines.

The grief in your heart against this is God expressing his own grief through you. God however can use you to draw the church attention to this but it will cost you and you must ask yourself if you can pay the price.

What are your views on the thread I referred you to earlier?

[size=16pt] Scriptures that relate to Christians being sick in the bible:[/size]

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat:  I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink:  I was a stranger, and ye took me in:  36 Naked, and ye clothed me:  I was sick, and ye visited me:  I was in prison, and ye came unto me – Matthew 25

Jesus, the Master himself, who WOF claim was never sick, say here “I was sick…” Now I understand that our Lord was speaking metaphorically but we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus was not ashamed to identify with the sick among his people to the extent of saying that when they were sick, he himself was sick. Again, it brings to question the language that many WOF adherents use, when they refuse to say they are “sick” but would rather say they are “strong”. Apparently Jesus had no time for such positive speaking nonsense.

13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh [/i]I preached the gospel unto you at the first.   14 [i]And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected;  but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.   15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of?  for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me – Galatians 4

Paul is speaking to the Galatian church about his “infirmity in the flesh” or “temptation” in the flesh. Some believe that because he referred to the Galatians plucking out their eyes, h might have sustained an eye injury from an incidence where he was stoned. Whatever it was, it is safe to say that the great apostle was not well physically (“infirmity in the flesh”) and was possibly sick.

20 Erastus abode at Corinth:  but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick – 2 Timothy 4

Paul, in his usual remarks/greetings to close his epistle, speaks of one of his assistants, Trophimus, who he left sick at Miletum. The questions that this short but incisive scripture begs are: Was Paul, as anointed as he was, unable to heal his assistant? Did Trophimus not know enough of the gospel of “divine health”, if indeed that was the kind of gospel Paul preached, to be well? It seem to me that it was not uncommon for Christians in the first century to see strong members fall sick and to say so without feeling ashamed or think they are speaking negatively.

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.   26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.   27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death:  but God had mercy on him;  and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow – Phillipians 2

Another of Paul’s companions/assistant is here said to be sick. In fact his own sickness was near unto death. Paul speaks of his possible healing as God having mercy on them both. Not that he commanded the illness to go. Not that Epaphroditus suddenly found a revelation in Mark 11:24 and was healed. It was simply that God had mercy on them and spared Paul of sorrow. Which is the right attitude a Christian should have: a heart of thanksgiving for mercy, not one of "right" or proprietary that the doctrine of guaranteed health conveys.

23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities – 1 Timothy 5

Timothy is said here to have often/frequent illness. The one who probably succeeded Paul in ministry is said to be sick often.

It is clear from the foregoing that the doctrine of divine health was foreign to New Testament. Indeed there were healing, such that we would call divine healing. But to claim that Christians could attain to a level of knowledge of God’s word and confess them long enough to dwell in divine health is foreign to the bible. Some other New Age doctrines might teach it, and it could be working for them. But the fact that it works is not enough to claim that it is gospel truth. We see from the account of scriptures that there is no such thing as a doctrine of divine health. We see from the experiences of first century Christians that some of them were sick, and it did not make them any less a Christian nor prove that they were weak Christians.

I said all this to prove the theses that the gospel of “guaranteed health” or divine health is not a gospel or doctrine of the New Testament.

Redoil: To me whoever dutifuly obeys and follow the teachings from the bible is a man of God not neccesrily a pastor

phonetics: BluIvy,...There are scriptures for this, actually...

1 Tim 6:11.."But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness

2 Kings 4:9..."And she said unto her husband, Behold now, I perceive that this is an holy man of God, which passeth by us continually.

.

I agree with the first post that every Christian is a man of God and not just Pastors. This is what Paul meant in the Timothy scripture above.

We must understand that moving from the OT to the NT, there were some fundamental changes. In the old, it was not out of place to call someone a man of God. But when Jesus came he showed us that things have changed along those lines. Our Lord taught in Matthew 23 that no one is rabbi, master or father to another in the church dispensation. he was showing us that rather than the clergy distinction that the OT emphasized, the new encouraged equality. That is why no one is called a man of God in the new. The only place the phrase is used in Timothy, refers to all Christians and not just the clergy.

Today, when people use MOG, they are again imposing the OT clergy/laity distinction, which is a sign of a backslidden church.

I find this topic interesting, for further understanding into the doctrinal errors that brought about this MOG emphasis, I invite you to this thread:

www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents

[size=16pt]PAUL'S THORN IN THE FLESH[/size]

The matter of divine healing began to take centre stage in evangecalism following disease epidemics. What I believe was a legimitimate move of God in healing diseased people, seem to have taken an extreme position in "divine health" - that is the doctrine that says there are some truth you learn that will ensure you are never sick. We have seen from what has been aforementioned that this is not biblical truth. Nonetheless God still heals and my hope is that anyone who seeks him in regards to healing, in prayer, will find it.

However, the story of Paul's thorn in the flesh can offer tremendous comfort and strenght as we face difficulties including times of sickness and ecen death. I agree with many biblical commentaries that Paul's thorn was not sickness, but I also believe we cannot say for sure what it was. The lessons he learnt and wrote on from that experience should however comfort any saint experiencing afliction. Whatever Paul thorn was, we see that like Paul, if we are ill, we can besought the Lord. As that passage shows we see that the answer to the prayer lies, not with the authority to command God, but on the good sovereignity of God. Our hope is that our prayers will be answered. But if it is not, may God grant us ears to hear him tell us the reason why the afliction lingers so that like Paul we can even glory in our infirmity and enjoy a renewed grace of God.

Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones died in 1981 at 81 years. On his death bed he instructed his family and doctors to discontinue further medication. His words: "Do not keep me from glory..." The late Pastor R B Thieme teaches a concept of dying grace. He says whatever state in which the saint dies, God grants dying grace. So that the Holy Ghost comforts through death unto glory. It is not for nought that Paul states that death has lost its sting, including its sting in sickness!

One of the sorriest times in WOF churches (atleast the one I worshipped at before) are members reaction to fellow members death. They are usually devastated. Having been taught a sugar candy doctrine of health and wealth, with long life; if anyone dies, the church have no answers. Does not the bible teach of eternal life? What's this preoccupation with living till 120? Did the Master not die at 33? What is life purpose: is it how long or how well? Is God not able to work all things, including sickness and death for our good?

Why should WOF adherents teach a concept of divine health when everyone of their apostles died of sickness? Kenyon died of brain tumour. Hagin had a bad heart and eventually succumbed to it. Etc. Why not teach the truth of God word which is that God can heal if he pleases. When he doesnt, it for a good purpose and not because people lack faith?

Whatever Paul afflictions were, he was afflicted like any other Christian may be afflicted and this can even inluclude sickness. We trust God for a long and fruitful life but even more for us to fulfill God's purposes and go home in his own time.

Some instructive scriptures in regards to sick Christians in Scripture:

I introduce the question of Paul's thorn in the flesh to this discuss. I present for your reading to point an issue concerning the believer in illness.

Question: "What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?"

Answer: Paul speaks of a “thorn in the flesh” in 2 Corinthians 12:7. He calls it “a messenger of Satan” that had a purpose of “torment.” Many explanations have been put forward, but whether Paul is referring to a physical, spiritual, or emotional affliction—or something else entirely—has never been answered with satisfaction. Since he was not talking of a literal thorn, he must have been speaking metaphorically. Some of the more popular theories of the thorn’s interpretation include temptation, a chronic eye problem, malaria, migraines, epilepsy, and a speech disability. Some even say that the thorn refers to a person, such as Alexander the coppersmith, who did Paul “a great deal of harm” (2 Timothy 4:14). No one can say for sure what Paul’s thorn in the flesh was, but it was a source of real pain in the apostle’s life.

Paul clues us in concerning the thorn’s purpose: “To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations.” So, God’s goal in allowing the thorn in the flesh was to keep Paul humble. Anyone who had encountered Jesus and was commissioned personally by Him (Acts 9:2- would, in his natural state, become “puffed up.” Add to that the fact that Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to write much of the New Testament, and it is easy to see how Paul could become “haughty” (KJV) or “exalted above measure” (NKJV) or “too proud” (NCV).

Paul also says that the affliction came from or by a “messenger of Satan.” Just as God allowed Satan to torment Job (Job 1:1-12), God allowed Satan to torment Paul for God’s own good purpose.

No one likes to live in pain. Paul sought the Lord three times to remove this source of pain from him (2 Corinthians 12:. He probably had many good reasons why he should be pain-free: he could have a more effective ministry; he could reach more people with the gospel; he could glorify God even more! But the Lord was more concerned with building Paul’s character and preventing pride. Instead of removing the problem, whatever it was, God gave Paul more overwhelming grace and more compensating strength. Paul learned that God’s “power is made perfect in weakness” (verse 9).

The exact nature of Paul’s thorn in the flesh is uncertain. There is probably a good reason that we don’t know. God likely wanted Paul’s difficulty to be described in general enough terms to apply to any difficulty we may face now. Whether the “thorn” we struggle with today is physical, emotional, or spiritual, we can know that God has a purpose and that His grace is all-sufficient.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Paul-thorn-flesh.html#ixzz36KTEQuBO

Having said that, scripture recognizes the fact that godliness is profitable for this life and for the life to come. What this means is simple: the godly man, who obeys the voice of the Spirit and enjoy the power of God in him that gives life to his mortal body, is more likely to live victoriously above illness than the ungodly. Example: all things being equal, a godly man who does not smoke nor inhale passive smoke is not likely to have lung cancer, like the ungodly man who indulges these habits. The same goes for drinking alcohol, inhabiting bitterness and living in un-forgiveness, etc. The diseases that might occur from these actions are not likely to be found in saints.

Notwithstanding, the human body is mortal and thus subject to sickness. This mortality is due not necessarily to the sin of the individual but to the fact that we all descend from Adam, our first father who sinned and whom God declared will die as a result.

From that point on, anyone with a human body, carries mortality on him. This mortality manifest itself in many ways and one of them is sickness. When Jesus Christ came, our Lord reversed the curse on Adam, but not in a physical sense but in the spiritual alone. Therefore, anyone who believes in Jesus would never die. He would not die not in the sense of physical death but in the sense of a spiritual death. The proof of this is in the fact that every godly person since after Jesus resurrection has paid the price of death. If Jesus death and resurrection came to deliver us from physical death and sickness, then since the cross, it would be expected that Christians would not die. But the fact that Christians do die, shows to us that Christ did not guarantee eternal life to us in a physical sense but a spiritual one; and by extension Christ has not guaranteed a life without sickness, since sickness is a fruit of death. Therefore just as every Christian must die, every Christian is susceptible to sickness.

However, our hope and joy is the fact that nothing is impossible with God. Therefore, if a Christian is sick, according to James 5, he can call on the name of the Lord and our God can heal him. That is how far divine health is taught in scriptures. Scripture does not teach guaranteed health; if it does, then we should also have guaranteed physical and eternal life.

The joy of the cross for the believer is that Christ抯 cross has solved the trouble of sin. If sin took men to hell before, the one who has put his trust in Christ will be saved from hell. If sin made men to live unholy lives, the one who has put his trust in Christ can also trust God to live holy. This is the message of the cross: solution to sin. This is the message of the church: Christ and him crucified. That is why the gospel is a message to sinners: rich or poor sinners; healthy or sick sinners. This is the message to the redeemed church of Christ. We are to be taught Sunday after Sunday, the victory of the cross over sin. How believers must look forward to a sure hope in heaven and not rejoice in earthly things. How believers must trust God and cooperate with his Holy Spirit to find victory over sin. The cross of Jesus does not guarantee health for anyone. It guarantees our eternal life and victory over sin in this life.

END.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH[/size]

After man has secured his food, clothing and shelter, the very next port of call for him is to ensure good health for himself and his loved ones. The Word of Faith doctrine, which has already been shown to be a gospel that seeks the physical well being of man, panders to these basic human desire to teach a lie that the cross of Jesus has guaranteed good health for all those who believe. Of course, this good health will not just fall on anyone's lap; rather, we must get into the know of how to achieve this. The doctrine is more appropriately defined as the doctrine of Divine Health. Like most themes in their teachings, WOF teachers make us to understand that God in Jesus was never sick and we can also exercise our faith to ensure that we also have this God-type of health or divine health.

The proof of this, for many WOF preachers, is a regular boast they make of going without drugs for long period of time. When you hear a minister say "the last time I used drugs was 20 years ago", that person is most likely a WOF minister. What they do not tell us is that many leading WOF preachers have died of various diseases, many of them are secretly on life long medication, and many of them resort to medical sciences to solve medical problems that their faith is insufficient to take care of for themselves and their families. The effect of their messages on the flock, however, is terrible because many people hear these teachings, refuse medication and simply die preventable deaths. Others will only take advantage of medical science when their case is way too late, and end up loosing their lives. And some others end up handicaps for life. All of these happening to the flock of a pastor who ensures that he and his family has access to the best medical care around the world. The question that need be answered is this: does the cross of Jesus include divine health in the things Christ has secured for the saints?

The simple answer to this is NO.

The Christian church needs to be reminded the reason why Jesus Christ died. Jesus Christ died to redeem man from sin. Period. The consequences of which is two fold: 1. That man may live in victory over sin; that is, he may walk in holiness before a holy God on the face of the earth. 2. That man may be delivered from the eternal consequences of sin; that is he may be saved from eternal damnation. The result is again two fold in this life: the born-again man of God has access to the blessing of the righteousness of God by which he has confidence to draw to the throne of grace. This is necessary to take care of the imperfection every human being is beleaguered with as a result of being a child of Adam. So while he is born-again, he is not perfect but Christ gives him his righteousness by which God sees him as perfect and thus he can draw near to God, with a conscience devoid of offence. The other blessing is that when the end comes, and such a man closes his eyes in death or the trumpet sounds, God will take such a person home to be with him not because he was good in himself but because of his Son Jesus Christ. Scriptures call the people of God saints (2 Corinthias1:1). They are not saints because they are good in themselves but saints because God through Christ is good. And since we are in union with him, we enjoy all the benefits that God accrues to Christ through him. God's grouse with human beings is not that they are poor or sick, God's grouse with humanity has been because men are unholy or sinners. And since we could not help ourselves, God sent Jesus to us to solve the problem of sin. And when Christ died and rose again, our Lord solved the problem of sin once and for all. So that the redeemed man can walk in holiness before a holy God, though held down by his own weaknesses, but clothed in the righteousness of Christ; and the redeemed man can have confidence that because Christ died, heaven, a holy place, can be his home after death. That is all that the cross of Jesus came to secure for us and a few scriptures with basic explanation with suffice for this:

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins - Matthew 1:21

This is the reason Jesus came. Not to make us rich; not to give us guaranteed health; but to save us from our sins.

46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.- Luke 24

Please let us note verse 47, the message that is given to the church to preach is not prosperity or guaranteed health but that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name. This preaching is a direct consequence of the cross of Jesus. He died that the sin problem of humanity be solved.

23 for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus - Romans 3

The redemption the cross brought was to solve the sin trouble of all men.

8 but God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us . But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord - Romans 5

The text above shows beyond doubt the the grace of God came to solve the question of sin and sin alone.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 and the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting - 1 Timothy 1

Paul tells us here that Christ came to save sinners and that the same mercy which he has received, He is ready to show to any other person who believes.
The whole of the New Testament is a gospel meassage preached to sinners to come to the saving knowledge of Christ. It is not a message to be rich, neither is it a message to be healthy. It is sin, sin and sin, the cross came to solve.

The scripture that WOF adherents stand on to prove that the cross has given us guaranteed health, Isaiah 53, was also basically speaking of the question of sin. Let抯 see the text:
[b]
4燬surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11he shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.牋 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
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V5, which says by his stripes we are healed, is the central text for WOF guaranteed health doctrine. But the healing in that text was not talking about healing of diseases. V. 5 had spoken of our transgressions and our iniquity and in the light of a plethora of other New Testament text on what the cross of Jesus actually came to do, we must of a necessity see that the healing here refers to our sins. The remaining verse of the above text buttresses this point. V.6 speaks of God laying the iniquity of us all on Christ. V. 7 compares the cross to the Old Testament practice of sacrificing animals. Any Jew reading this text would certainly realize that it was for sin those animals were sacrificed and thus Christ was sacrificed for the sin of the whole world. It would be preposterous to say that those old testament lambs were sacrificed for people抯 healing from illnesses.

V.8 speaks of Christ抯 future suffering for the transgression of people. V. 10 speaks of Christ offered for sin. V.11 speaks of Christ bearing our iniquity. V. 12 speaks of Christ bearing the sins of many and interceding for trangressors. The whole text obviously is speaking of the cross of Jesus and it how it offers solution to the trouble of humanity's sins. Various synonyms for sin are used in the text that includes iniquity and transgression. There is nowhere in the text where healing to diseases is mentioned.

1 Peter 2: 24 helps us comprehend the Isaiah text according to New Testament doctrine better:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.牋 25 for ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Again when Peter mentions the matter of healing from Christ抯 stripes, he definitely was speaking about the process of being dead to sins and the need to live unto righteousness. There is nothing like healing of diseases here either.

There is one final scripture where Isaiah 53 is again replayed:

16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.18 Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side - Matthew 8

Matthew interprets Isaiah 53 to mean healing to sicknesses. But we cannot overlook the context in which he used it. Jesus is here carrying out his messianic ministry to the nation of Israel. For this to happen, he healed the people. But does this text really mean guaranteed health for all men? The answer is obvious in verse 18: When people began to hear of this healing ministry, they came thronging him. Rather than sit around and guarantee healing to all the sick, Jesus leaves them and departs somewhere else. The same Jesus would visit a pool and heal only one person among many sick laying there in John 5. So much for something that is guaranteed.

Thus we must understand that this healing of Matthew 8, is peculiar to the ministry of Jesus alone. So many things happened in our Lord抯 lifetime that was prophesied in the Old Testament, with the aim of fulfilling scriptures to confirm the Messianic ministry of Jesus. Those things did not happen in any other person's life. This will include the virgin birth; the fleeing to Egypt; his ministry starting in Galilee; the above incidence of healing; Jesus' crucifixion and so many others. Therefore this scripture was not talking about guaranteed health. And the proper interpretation of Isaiah 53 would be 1 Peter 2:24 and not Matthew 8:17.

[quote author=Mr_Anony](By the way, it may interest you to know that I have replied Deep Sight on Philoversity. Please accept my apologies for the delay)[/quote]I will check it out.

I also thought you continued the debate here on nairaland or possibly the hacking affected it.

I owe it to Deep Sight for the wisdom in numbering points on threads with letters. This is the second thread I am using it. That trinity thread of yours is a blessing indeed.

Image123: God answers prayers still,

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Oh my Lord. Threads like this are what makes me love Nairaland sometimes. Still reading the comments. Big Ups to BabaGnoni, Trustman, and Drummaboy for diligently going through this topic. I am still reading, haven't caught up yet but just wanted to say: May God thoroughly bless you guys.[/quote]I look forward to your contributions to the thread.

Image123: good, God answers prayer.

This comment from you is wholly unnecasary because there is nothing different I said in what you quoted and what I have always maintained on this forum. For example, I refer you to the opening comment of this thread where I said, among other things:

The two groups are well prepared and shall be making their presentations in a matter of moment. We have made it clear that this is not a debate but a discussion, so that there shall be no winner nor looser. We trust God that the gain of this discuss will be people visiting this thread in the years to come to gain understanding on the whole matter of tithing. So that he that wishes to tithe still will continue to do so; and he that doesn’t will not feel condemened but will base his practice on sound scriptural positions as will be discussed.

Note the bolded.

Unfortunately you, and especially Bidam, have never been able to rid your minds of a bondage to competition and the desire to be proven right and seen to have won an argument. In the same OP I made it clear there will be no winner or looser. One Ukupt guy here went around and opened a thread that antithers have won the tithe argument on this forum after the discuss. Shdemidemi and I corrected him that the tithe debates, for us, is not aimed at winning but bringing understanding.

Before you rushed off thanking God for whatever reasons, you refused to see that I stated that my grouse will always be against those collecting tithes to fleece God's people. Which is the leading reason for tithe collecting in our clime anyway and the reason I cannot stop condemning the monetary tithes. But if you or some others do so for convictions wholly from God, good. I praise God for it and rejoice wholeheartedly for it.

My above statement you quoted has not subtracted from my position on tithes on this forum, neither has it reduced the argument Candour/Miwerds provided against tithing here.

I am yet to complete my submission on F2. I trust God to do so tomorrow.

tribeofdavid: pls keep this thread going, it has been revealing so far! the heretic TBN station is all about this movement. bt i wonder, why are some other KENNETH HAGIN book so spiritual and having sound doctrine?

I would encourage that you pay attention to the thread topics discussed. The thread is not out to pull down any individual. That was the downside of the last one. This one seeks to compare WOF with scriptures, like the Bereans compared Paul teachings with scriptures. At the end of discussing the 20 points, I hope you will come to understand what is SOUND or what true SPIRITUALITY is all about.

John warns that many spirits have gone into the world. Its our duty to find out which ones is of Jesus. Everyone of those spirits will give a seeming spirituality. We are not to believe every spirit or spirituality, we are to test evert spirit. Not every oratory speaking is sound teaching; we are to weigh it all with scriptures.

The thread is not going to be a sprint; its meant to be a marathon. And we have all the time to do justice to the topic, that will become reference point for discusses on thus forum tomorrow.

Again, I encourage you to sit back, relax and savour all the post on the thread; you are in to learn some gospel truths.