₦airaland Forum

Super Nik, what a goal.  
but our MF performance today na wa.

Denilson has been dire today, is he really that weak? horrible team performance particularly in MF but our boys are getting nasty, Bendtner knew what he was doing for the 2nd goal but then there is no law saying he has to get out of the defender's way. I still don't like it though.

jalether:
@ dudu.

You have the GOD given ability to spot quality/mediocre players without breaking a sweat yet you work as a gateman in Ikeja. . . .why are you wasting your talent dudu?

Sorry, you must have me mistaken for one of those gatemen yu help to repair their shoes while on your early morning Sobata runs.  

jalether:
I see some potential in bebe, if given sufficient opportunity by the club, he can become a very good winger

He has plenty of pace and decent crossing ability but his first touch needs working on

Manure can do whatever they want with Bebe afterall they paid to buy him, but I'll be very surprised if he becomes a first team winger at Manure and very happy at the same time. Maybe this is what Rooney saw that set him off demanding assurance for future signings, I would if I were in his shoes  

dayokanu:
Dudu,

You have no shame I swear.

Tell us how many kids from this Assanal academy have been nominated for ballon D'or, or lit up any tournament.

The Arturo Lupoli, Owusu Abeyie, Jeremy Aliadiere, Justin Hoyte, Merida etc what became of them?

This question will become valid when Bebe lights up a tournament.

Cougar:
there are better footballers out there than messi and cr7 in yaba left. they will never get their opportunities. being scouted is an opportunity. it's like an x-factor audition. the winner of the x-factor audition cannot be the best voice in the country. scouts can only choose from what they see and not many players play in the academies so what we see as talents in top clubs is just 1/100th of the talents that walk the planet.

This still doesn't apply to Bebe, he was scouted but only judged worthy of being picked by a 3rd division club, why is this so hard for you to understand. He played for an amateur side like most other footballers before going to Estrela.

Cougar:
see why i questioned your thinking faculty? how does a player raised in the orphanage get the opportunity to play in a club academy? maybe you should go and scour bebe's background.

Unfortunately you ask so many questions but can't seem to grasp the answers that stare you in the face. A player raised in an orphanage gets the opportunity to play in a club academy like any other player in the academies, they are scouted based on the talent they show while young. infact some of them are more fortunate in that regards as they don't have parents insisting they become doctors.

Cougar:
so if evra who had already played for a ligue 1 club could fluff his lines at old trafford in his debut season then i think bebe can be excused. you have shot yourself in the foot in that regard. you can be happy with man utd's future, afterall united's success has guaranteed a place for hapless clubs like arsenal in europe. without saf's success in europe in the 90s, arsenal wouldn't be playing in europe regularly. the fact remains united's future is better than anything wenger can put together in billions of years to come. we make ballon d'ors, arsenal make duds.

This is not about Ballon D'ors but about Bebe, cloud the issue all you will  I don't see any talent or exceptional ability on display and I make my conclusions not only on yesterday's match but every time I've seen him play some examples which I've already given. And please fluffing of lines are at different levels, if you say both Vidic and Evra fluffed their lines on initial appearances for Manure I won't argue cos I didn't watch those matches but remember that Vidic had already set a record back in his home country for clean sheets.

Cougar:
others weren't born there but[b] having parents who can support will go a long way in helping young players into the academies[/b]. bebe had none. he had no parents to support him, had no home and football was a second hobby. if you cannot see the difference between bebe with no support at all and the likes of cesc and wilshere who had every support/opportunities possible then you are not worthy to have a football debate with.

You could also have parents who would prevent you from going to an academy in the first instance so it works both ways. Not belittling the difficulties Bebe had growing up but we're talking about football talent here. And according to Wikipedia, he was with his Grannie until he clocked 12 and keep in mind Messi left for Barcelona as a 13 year old.
I'm sure if you go through footballer's histories, you'll find others with harder childhoods than Bebe had, I've already told you of Eduardo sleeping under the stadium at Croatia Zagreb as an 18 year old.

Anyway, leave story for another day,  I offered to make a wager with Starboard but he neva show face.

Cougar:
you came out with a first class or what? all i am saying here is "getting an opportunity" is the key. there are millions of players better than the household names we see on TV but they have no opportunity to shine through.

If you know where they are, show me so we can set up a rival association to FIFA that will make more money.    I'm not sure this is what you mean though, I'm guessing you meant to say there are players with more innate abilities who never made it to the top abi? If that is what you mean I totally agree. But if you tell me there is a better footballer out there than Messi and CR9, I'll redirect you to Yaba left. 

Cougar:
so how many of the so called arsenal kids have gone on to win ballon d'or with their exceptional abilities since they started playing at age 2? zidane, makelele, cannavaro and nesta were unknown in their teens. so age is not important at all. having the gift is the most important factor and that gift can blossom at any time.

The Arsenal kids I originally mentioned are all still younger than Bebe and weren't bought at the amount Bebe was. I still insist that I see nothing in Bebe that set him apart. Those players were not so unknown as you would think in their youth. Many of them were already in club academies and had played at different age levels for their country, read up one of their histories on wiki and you'll see.

Cougar:
ridiculous! bebe did not have the opportunity because he was in a 3rd division league and grew up in an orphanage. travelling from his homeless camp for training session was even difficult for him and the only time he moved up the ladder and appeared in a pre-season fixture, scouts of madrid and man utd spotted his talents. if they had seen him 5 years ago, same talent would still have been enough for them to sign him.

This is all stories we heard after he was bought, Real haven't come out to say they were ever monitoring him. if you ask me the whole story looks kinda fishy but that is a story for another day.

Cougar:
darren fletcher, vidic and evra were not explosive in their first few games for man utd. a season later, they all walked into the pfa eleven and became the best defensive unit in europe. to actually beat your chest a certain player will NOT make it is absolutely ridiculous and premature.

Evra was already playing for a Ligue 1 club, the analogy don't add up. I didn't say he won't make it in football only that he won't make it at Manure and if he does and this is Manure's future then I will be very happy.

Cougar:
you must think the whole portugal is a street where every footballer in the country can be seen. bebe has been playing his football ever since but in an orphanage. a street footballer unlike players like cesc and co who actually started in a football academy. scouts find academies easily. no one will scout a player who plays on the streets. how will the scouts know which streets of portugal bebe plays? your thinking faculty seems a bit delayed.

So these others players were born into the academies?  Their fathers and mothers met in the academies and did the thing there, had the children there and brought them up there abi?  wow!!! I envy the speed of your thinking faculty but mine will do just nicely thank you,

[/quote][quote author=Cougar link=topic=443065.msg7025942#msg7025942 date=1288193636]bebe is not £7.4 million. he was bought for £4.8million. i blame daniel taylor for the nonsense you are spilling here. another thing, a homeless player will not have the kind of opportunity carlos vela or alex song has. being homeless has nothing to do with talent. if cesc fabregas was homeless growing in an obscure area in spain, he would never have been discovered. there are millions of talents in the favelas of brazil that are better than messi and cristiano but will never be discovered becos there's no opportunity.

First of all, I accept true details of transfer values are hardly ever known but in every other recognizable site I know, 7.4m has been quoted (Soccernet, Goal.com and even Sky) e.t.c.

If that wasnt what was in the public domain, why the need for a clarification? as to that stuff about being homeless and not having opportunity, that is so untrue, have you ever read Eduardo's story and how he had to sleep under the stands in Zagreb's stadium while looking for professional opportunity in Croatia as an 18 year old? How exactly did Bebe end up in the 3rd division as a 19 year old if indeed he had no opportunities?

Football is all about talent and what you can do and it has global coverage these days, Africa aside, if there is any precocious talent playing even on a rubbish heap somewhere out there in Europe, there is a talent scout out there that will likely find him, if Bebe wasn't noticed as a youngster, what that tells me is that he never really stood out and on the strength of what I've seen with my own eye likely won't at Manure.

Cougar:
why don't you just shut up and admit you are clueless. since when has age being the only determinant to judge who would excel? bebe wasn't a premier league starter at 18 becos he had no such opportunity. he was homeless in an unknown district of portugal. not every player will become league starters at 17. we can also say you were dim-witted in the university becos there were younger students in your class.yet his stupidity
shines through.

You would be wrong in saying I was dim-witted because I kept pace with my peers but you would be totally right to call the younger ones in my class exceptional (dependent on their age) or in the alternative to call me ordinary because in reality I was. As a footballer Bebe is ordinary that is what my eyes tell me after watching him.

Age is an important factor in identifying people who are exceptional and those who are not. Why are people who attain professorship in their early 30s or late 20s celebrated?
Bebe did not have the opportunity they had simply because he wasn't exceptional, he grew up in Portugal after all.

Cougar:
three months ago, bebe was playing for a third division league in portugal and yet our royal dumbness(duduspace) expects him to adapt quickly to a quality league like the premiership. the facts and figures are lost on you. bebe's age won't play a part here because he had no opportunity like messi(age 13 at barcelona), cesc(age 10 at barcelona, 16 at arsenal), denilson(18 at arsenal), ronaldo(18 at man utd). so if an unknown player joins a big club at the age of 20 from nowhere, he will still be less unrefined than the younger players who had joined big clubs cos the younger players have gone through quality training sessions with state of the art facilities.

Do you really follow your club and your players? I don't follow Manure's reserve league as I follow Arsenal's but the last Reserve league match Bebe played in, you got thumped by Aston Villa 4-1, that was Reserve league and not PL.
Okay, fair enough the chap has to settle down, but I still didn't see any talent on display, nothing explosive or to suggest being exceptional at all, that is the point in case you don't get it.
If you go and pick a brilliant ajepaki boy from a remote area, his english might not be refined and show in his accent but you will immediately see whatever brilliant trait sets him apart either in maths/science or creative arts, but what do you see in Bebe that sets him apart?  

Cougar:
wilshere, ramsey, lansbury are all under 20 but there's nothing to show they have more talents than bebe. the only difference here is that the arsenal kids have been at it for quite a long time now and bebe is still a raw specimen whose skills need to be honed cos his opportunity came late unlike most of his peers.

Okay, here is a new one, so Bebe only started playing football at 20?   and where had he been before then? under Olumo rock? Listen to yourself and tell me who sounds dumb? Skills need to be honed at 20? okay o, he will make your first team at 30.

StarBoard:
I knew it would get to this when I am trying to make sense to someone who refuses to see things aside from his usually stunted and skewed view.
All your dust you've just finished yarning here is worthless as far as I'm concerened.

Your 19-year-old have done what with their careers?Zilch.So until they do something progressive,(e.g. win a title for starters)that example is pathetic and not relevant to the discussion on the subject.

I never used age as an excuse and I used his past because it is a VALID reason.So stop this your senseless barbs about the fellow.He's not played 5 games for United and you're comparing him to a set of losers some of whom have been inthe league for up to 5 years.You're calling Merida,but really did he do anything while at Arsenal?Are you serious in labeling him established?

As for Obertan,again your view is skewered and dim.Obertan was mostly unassured as per yestrday's game,and his contribution was near zero.If you had any decency,you wouldn't knock someone who scored in that same game.

If you're talking of transfer fee,you seem to conveniently forget (typical of most Arsenal fans) of a certain Jose Antonio Reyes whose career has never been the same even after leaving you people and you're here mocking a signing of an unknown player.

I note your quotes about Obertan and I'm not a Manure supporter but are you willing to make a wager as to who will make it into Manure's first team between the 2?

What we are talking about here is talent, and I've only given my opinion on your players, I only gave you examples of younger arsenal players because of all the excuses yu're coming up with for the guy. This is not an opinion about Manure players, it is about one player, so I don't really understand your being defensive about 1 player, even the Reyes you mention true enough didn't make it at Arsenal because he didn't settle but the talent still showed in the end as he has won a UEFA and Super cup with Athletico Madrid and mind you we got our money back when we sold him to Athletico.

It is you who can't see reason and stick to the point, the point I'm making which you fail to see is the excuses given for Bebe don't add up. is he the first footballer with such humble beginnings? No, even Alex Song too has a sob story to tell, is he the only one who can't speak English, no Carlos Vela up till now still needs a translator, is he really young as people claim? not at all as I've clearly shown. But we all watch football and I don't see anything in Bebe to justify paying 7.4m for a player playing in the 3rd division in Portugal at 20 years of age.

StarBoard:
I don't recall saying that.
I saw him yesterday.He is raw,and if given more games will come good.He made mistakes,but his overall movement was good and he looked dangerous at times with the ball.
Bebe is a young chap with a chequered personal past.You don't expect him to fit in seamlessly without going through some adjustment/adaptation.

Stop that poopycock abeg, this is a player bought for 7.4m what concerns me with his history? The likes of Denilson at the same age were already PL starters (after assured displays in the carling cup mind you), at this level as a 20 year old, if you can only look dangerous atimes then wahala dey. Remember also that for now he is an unknown quantity, what will happen when he is now well known and most defenders know how to defend against him? 

I can almost say with certainty that he is never going to make it as a winger, he has a physical advantage and decent pace but his thinking is slow and creativity is nigh nil (compare his performance to both Obertan and Jarvis who always looked to beat their man and mostly did) can you remember anytime Bebe really beat Elokobi with pace or trickery, apart from the time he stumbled into him and the ball broke luckily for him. If he gets moved into the middle it can only get worse as the CBs will always be breathing down his neck and its more congested in there. He was given a lot of space to operate by Elokobi yesterday for some weird reason but didn't really look like exploiting it much.

Obertan had some Diaby like moments yesterday when he held on to the ball a bit too long but he is definitely a more explosive player than Bebe, more assured and inventive. I almost love Chicharito if he weren't a Manure player, the first day I saw him I wrote on this thread that he would get goals for Manure, not a flashy player with dribbles and all but one you can count on to bury a chance when it comes, his movement and pace is unbelievable.

StarBoard:
I wonder why people would want to compare him to others,especially when he doesn't have anything close to the backgrounds of the people he's been compared with.I'm definitely willing to see how he makes it.Because we don't know where the 19-year olds you're refering to ended up.

They are still very  much here with us and a lot of them are presently still YOUNGER than Bebe because when they were playing Wigan off the park they were in the 16/17 age range, (Wilshere, Ramsey, Lansbury are all under 20), one of them (Merida) has gone on to Athletico Madrid and played against Inter when they beat Inter in the Supercup. I understand when people mention adaptation as an excuse for Bebe but age should never ever be used.

StarBoard:
Bebe has the talent to go far.He just needs to work on his conditioning.A goal is a goal.Flukey or not.He has scored on his Old Trafford debut.He is a talent.He definitely can't be good as CR7.But he can be as good as he wants to be.You can complain all you want,but he gave Elekobi ,a premier league veteran,a tough time last night before being substituted.

So the definition of a talent is a player who scores on his OT debut?   anyway, we siddon dey look, if you're impressed with what you saw, I definitely wasn't, an Arsenal team with an average age of 19 (1 year less than Bebe's age) gave Wigan (also a PL club) a football lesson in the Carling Cup 2 seasons ago and beat them 3-0. A lot of those boys are still younger than Bebe today.

StarBoard:
@duduspace,
Tell me Fergie doesn't know talent when he spots it. . .

which kain talent be dat one? I sure didn't see any talent on display apart from Chicharito and Obertan to a lesser extent. If anything Bebe's outing showed me the guy has nothing men, does that guy look anywhere near CR9 as an 18 year old in this game? didn't you see the difference when Chicharito came on? confidence, pace, movement, impact everything you want in a striker, you know a winner when you see one but sorry, I don't see it in Bebe.

If not for Wolve's inferiority complex you would have been outta this competition by now, if that Wolves team meets our U18s walahi the goal margin cannot be less than 4 if they approach a game against Arsenal like that.

Elokobi gave the guy all the space in the world and the guy no fit use am and had to depend on one kain fluky goal like that, I want  to look at it again to be sure its actually not an own goal. I know you will all rejoice that the guy scored but men on the strength of that performance e be like say 7.4m don enter bush. 

Not surprising, Mick always rolls over at OT, at least they scored today.

These Wolves guys had better score before Fergie brings on Chicharito, that chap is a game changer.

Interesting goal from Bebe, Wolves usually get beaten at OT anyway. and now they score. Stupid boys, if only they had played as hard, it would be wrong if they get beaten by this lack lustre manure side.

If this is the future of Manure, I'm underwhelmed. The only decent youngsters yu've got on show today are Fabio, Obertan and Smalling. I'm still undecided on Macheda.
tkb, what's your take on the "impressive" Bebe so far?

tkb417:
what did your legend Patrick Vieira do at age 20?

2 senior appearances in a full season

Don't corrupt history Tkb, Viera had debuted for Cannes as a 17 year old and captained them aged 19. AC Milan were world powers in those days so a 19 year old managing 2 starts in a team that was the scourge of the 90s wasn't doing badly at all.

Surprise, surprise, Fergie start am, abeg make I rush go house go watch this match.

tkb417:
Bebe is still a small boi

when he comes of age, trust me, all your toto squillaci and co would be mesmerized

Small boy at 20, when will he become old? at 18, Bendtner was tearing up the Championship, try send Bebe out on loan and see if they won't drive him back to Carrington and demand a refund. Isn't Macheda younger? when they get on the pitch who looks more assured? Bebe is not the ish abeg.
I'm all for encouraging youth and all but a 20 year old should at the least do better than an 18 year old particularly one already as physically imposing as Bebe.

tkb417:
same was said about Nani and CR7
im sure you havent recovered from what both of them did to your team
i expect Bebe to be your tormentor in chief soon

Bebe ke? the day you decide to come against us with Bebe would be the day Fergie wants to soil his legacy in English football. CR7 and Nani had pedigree abeg. You can quote me anywhere, Manucho is  twice the player Bebe is. If yu're talking of Chicharito now I go gree, even that Macheda boy get swagger pass Bebe. Bebe ko, Bembe ni mschewww

Abeg where una Carling cup thread? not that I was looking forward to it anyway. Mick is probably just going to come out and get beaten yet again at OT, then remind us of how great Fergie is. 

tkb417:
nyways, Bebe must start today and he must do well

Bebe start ke? I don't think Fergie wants to embarrass himself and the poor boy. I expect him to start from the bench again until you sell him.

@Slim,

I think it is all about working on his fitness and learning to pace himself through a game, it is also not impossible that he is still growing after all he is yet to clock 20. I remember a time Arsene wasn't playing Ramsey and he mentioned something about him growing physically and might still be in a growth spurt.

Maybe they've noticed he lacks a bit in fitness and Arsene did specifically mention fitness. Since I've followed JET's emergence the only flaw people pointed out in his game is that he disappears from games atimes and looked lazy (like Kanu I guess), maybe that is what they're working on.

A lot of work goes into the development of these players hence why Arsene never wants to lose the as he tried so hard to keep Merida, I remember there was a time shortly before he went to Bolton when Wilshere was working on his upper body strength and initial acceleration because they noticed he could initially beat people but then didn't have the strength to pull away.

Whatever it is they are doing with the boy, all I know is he will soon emerge and there is a massive player in there about to come out.

debosky:
^^

I'm not saying you should be at that point, but be realistic. . .all you need is a couple of wins and you can be competing for European places. Spurs started out low and ended up in the CL spot last season, so why not Liverpool?

Have some belief man!!

Prophet, heal thyself.

slimshay:
WestYam doth beckon. Albeit we go forth to show color to a nothern monochromistic being. It be the red and white army!!!!

Abi ke, we want to make their Halloween a truly horrific one.

In more recent news, Arsene finally confirms somethings we have long rumored.

1. Szczesny is now No 3 GK and he always wanted to loan out Mannone

2. He wants to keep Lansbury at Arsenal cos he is a Parlour type character

3. JET is a massive talent having all the potential not to be a "good player" but a "great player" and only up to him how far he wants to go (I remember Holloway saying the same thing when he was on loan at Blackpool last season) , is knocking on the first team door "with both hands", and is working hard to get his fitness right ( truly, he used to flit in and out of games in the past and that was the only accusation levied against him)

For more info see: http://younggunsblog.co.uk/2010/10/wenger-hails-lansbury-jet-ahead-of-newcastle/

ritchboy:
I must say, Wilshere has really lived up to expectation so far. After watching him destroy West Ham in the reserves as the youngest player on the pitch i just knew he was destined for great things.

You watched that game too? interesting same here that was the first time I saw him, mid 2008 I think, you just knew immediately he was some special player. That through pass to Rio Fonte (another good youth player but who ended up too physically challenged to play in the PL) and the curler into the top right corner and you knew a star was born.
Interesting blast from the past, those boys have grown a lot within 2 years see JET looking as thin as a rake in that clip.

lest I forget, there is a conundrum as to what our best 11 is, Nasri is increasingly convincing me the MF is not the best place for him, he is more dangerous the nearer he is to the opponent's box, May I throw this hypothetical question that in the unlikely circumstance of us having a fully fit squad, where would you play Nasri? who would you leave out at his expense and why?

I don't know if I'll write anything sensible today cos I'm overjoyed at the performance, but I don't think Chamakh should come for any criticism, what I noticed about him were:

1. The MFs weren't hitting those balls to him quicker, some of our players had Diaby like moments today and the only time Cesc picked his run and hit a good ball towards Chamakh led to the sending off, there were at least 3 other moments when he was peeling off his marker and gesticulating but wasn't picked out and I clearly recall myself screaming at both Song and Sagna when they didn't pick him out.

2. Arsene should have subbed him immediately we were 2 goals up, you want to keep your best performers as fresh as possible while giving other players some game time. It is interesting to note that our subs are now usually on the score sheet unlike last season, even Vela on his sub appearances has been scoring and I believe there is a reason for it. None of our offensive player works the opposition's back line like Chamakh, he was born for that Lone striker role.

I am not too surprised Fabianski is now changing people's opinion, I always said on here he always had better reflexes than Almunia, I still distinctly recall a double save he made against Wigan in the Carling cup 2 seasons ago, but the best keeper on our books IMO is still Szczesny as he sometimes does what yu think is impossible, Almunia is actually the least naturally talented of all our keepers, he is just the one with the most experience.

The boys needed this victory like a shot in the arm, I was scared we would throw it away again sometimes in the 1st half with some weird and sloppy passes from Sagna and Denilson surprisingly as well as Clichy and Djorou's not so surprising nervy moments but they held on and were much more composed in the 2nd. At least they now know they can do well against quality opposition so I say bring on Manure, lets show them how far we have come and what we can do when we have our top performers fit and firing.

Its about time we went on one of those our winning/unbeaten streaks to keep in contention at the top before the FA cup comes into the mix, if Chelsea don't strengthen in January, that is when I expect them to falter as their Carling cup early exit has shown their squad depth is suspect despite their having arguably the best first 11.

kashmo:
I see a mug here craving for attention, but i wouldn't let that cloud my victory!  
A convincing result today

Just do your own thing and don't fuel the attention seeker, some people are frustrated and on the lookout for trouble. Don't let anyone spoil your celebrations joooo

@tkb

I always said it that Almunia is actually the least naturally talented of all our GKs, all he has over the others is experience.
Bendy took his goal well but he is definitely behind Chamakh in the pecking order for sure, the work Chamakh puts in is unquantifiable.

Now to keep a clean sheet hopefully, and we almost cocked up there if not for Fabianski

Atimes I question the professionalism of our players, what's all these sloppy passes in MF inviting unnecessary pressure? we're creating our own problems FFS.

This refree is allowing himself to be influenced, is it our players' fault that Boyata was the last man?