₦airaland Forum

Splinz:
Poor innocent woman, sleeping peacefully in her grave till the resurrection. Unaware that she has been deified. SMH

Unfortunately for you splinz even Kabasa doesnt agree with your seventh day Adventist soul sleep heresy

kabasa77:
My brother you are getting it wrong, when you are taking about intercession, there are two parts to it.. First, as Christians we can pray for one another, Bible even says we should carry one another burden, but the second part of intercession is pleading on behalf of a person for the wrong such a person committed.. That's where Jesus has the sole authority, Mary cannot plead for ur sins, thats blasphemy, firstly she was never the one that died on the cross, only Jesus who died on the cross has that Authority.. So when you talk about intercession, you must understand the context...

you are very correct.. Just like I have pointed out Catholics don't ask Mary to plead or forgive their sins, we only ask for her prayers, just like i can ask for yours

kabasa77:
Bible never said the were interceeding, just that the were bearing the prayers of Saints, thats a very different issue.. Stop twisting the scriptures

do you actually know intercession is

yes Bible says they are bearing prayers but to do what with??... they take the prayers of the Saints on earth and offer it to God's altar.. if that's not intercession then tell me what it is...

Secondly if prayers are only meant for God and Jesus.. then how did these 24 human elders get the prayers with them

kabasa77:
Question: "What is the purpose of Jesus interceding for us in Heaven?"

Answer: Speaking of Jesus, the writer to the Hebrews says, “Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25). This verse (and others like it) tells us that although Christ’s work to secure the salvation of the elect was completed on the cross, as evidenced by His cry “It is finished!” (John 19:30), His care for His redeemed children will never be finished.

Jesus did not go to heaven after His earthly ministry and “take a break” from His role as eternal Shepherd to His people. “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10, emphasis added). If when humble, despised, dying, and dead, He had the power to accomplish so great a work as reconciling us to God, how much more may we expect that He will be able to keep us now that He is a living, exalted, and triumphant Redeemer, raised to life and interceding on our behalf before the throne (Romans 8:34). Clearly, Jesus is still very active on our behalf in heaven.

After Jesus ascended to heaven and was seated at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 1:9; Colossians 3:1), He returned to the glory He had before His incarnation (John 17:5) to carry on His role of King of kings and Lord of lords—His eternal role as the second Person of the triune God. While this old earth continues to be “won” for Christ, Jesus is the Advocate for Christians, meaning He is our great Defender. This is the intercessory role He currently fulfills for those who are His (1 John 2:1). Jesus is always pleading our case before the Father, like a defense lawyer on our behalf.

Jesus is interceding for us while Satan (whose name means “accuser”) is accusing us, pointing out our sins and frailties before God, just as he did with Job (Job 1:6-12). But the accusations fall upon deaf ears in heaven, because Jesus’ work on the cross paid our sin debt in full; therefore, God always sees in His children the perfect righteousness of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, His righteousness (perfect holiness) was imputed to us, while our sin was imputed to Him at His death. This is the great exchange Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians 5:21. That took away forever our sinful state before God, so God can accept us as blameless before Him.

Finally, it is important to understand that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. No one else—not Mary, not any previous Christian saints, not angels—has the power to intercede for us before the throne of the Almighty. Christ alone mediates and intercedes between God and man. “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).

Jesus has a unique mediatorship we accept that based on what scriptures...
you misquote 1 Tim 2:5, what it says there is that Jesus is the way to be saved or to go to God for salvation because it is Jesus who died for our sins.. it doesn't mean that saints in heaven cannot pray for saints on earth because the first few chapters of 1 Tim 2 say otherwise...

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 WHO GAVE HIMSELF AS A RANSOM FOR ALL, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time

John also emphasized this in 1 john 2: 1My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world..

IT IS IN THIS CONTEXT THAT JESUS IS THE ONE MEDIATOR.

INFACT HE ASKS US TO PRAY FOR ONE ANOTHER AND EVEN OUR ENEMIES see mat 5:44..

And like I have pointed out.. us interceding for one another pleases God

1 Tim 2:1First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is GOOD, and it is ACCEPTABLE in the SIGHT of GOD our Savior,

Death doesn't separate us from one another and from the love of Christ, and we are members of his body

Roman's 8:38 For I am sure that NEITHER DEATH, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 cor 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

and we all need each other
20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

Like ITALO SAID, I WOULD TAKE MARY AND ALL THE SAINTS PRAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN PERFECTED IN GLORY ANY DAY ANYTIME THAN I WOULD MEN OF GOD WHO ARE STILL STRUGGLING IN THIS WORLD

kabasa77:
Paul said let Supplication be made by living people for living people, not asking some dead person to pray for you..

Paul didn't qualify it.. Rev 5:8 is clear, 24 human elders who must have died to reach heaven are making intercession, offering the prayers of the Saints to God

kabasa77:
And where is it written that the dead should interceded for the living. I guess you don't read the Bible, read it and gain knowledge, I answered u by giving you Bible verses that point to Jesus and only Jesus as the mediator and intercessor for Christian having made a public show of principalities and powers and is seated at the right hand of the Father making intercessions for us..

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

WE HAVE ALL THESE PEOPLE ON OUR SIDE, AND THEY PRAY FOR US TO JESUS IN CHRISTIAN AFFECTION BECAUSE IT PLEASES GOD

1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.3 THIS IS GOOD, and it is ACCEPTABLE in the sight of GOD our Savior,

Not all bowing connote worship
1 kings 2:19 So Bathshe′ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni′jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her;

Gen 33:6 Then the maids drew near, they and their children, and bowed down; 7 Leah likewise and her children drew near and bowed down; and last Joseph and Rachel drew near, and they bowed down.

Gen 27:29 Let peoples serve you,
and nations bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may your mother’s sons bow down to you.

psalm 72:9 May his foes bow down before him,

If all bowing is worship then Jesus would be causing people to be idolatrous by his words in
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.

Statues were used in the old testament temple Solomon built for God, and God didn't regard it as idolatry, i
1 kings 6: 23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. 24 Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other.

He decorated it with carvings too
1 kings 6:29 He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms.

Even in the Holy of holies where God dwelled in the temple 15 feet tall golden statues were there

and after building with statues God consecrated that temple to himself
1 kings 8: 6 Then the priests brought the ark of the covenant of the Lord to its place, in the inner sanctuary of the house, in the most holy place, underneath the wings of the cherubim. 10 And when the priests came out of the holy place, a cloud filled the house of the Lord, 11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
1 kings 9: 3 And the Lordsaid to him, “I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before me; I have consecrated this house which you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time..

God also commanded statues of cherubims to be made on the ark
Exo 25: 18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. 20 The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

Aizenosa:
Mehn after reading plenty topics and posts here in NL it shocks me to see that, Protestantism has done a lot of damage, people don't know Christ like I thought they should, it pains so much that I have been left speechless, because it's one thing not to know someone and a whole different thing to try change someone's wrong thought about that person.

May Christ truly help the church in ministering the truth about Christ and help in changing the wrong thoughts that have been taught over the years by Protestants.

Now I truly understand why the word says one should tests the spirits.

This is a great shock to me.

Thank God we have the Church and it's teaching authority (the magisterium) to guide us.. unfortunately our separated brethren do not have that while others reject it without fully grasping its significance..
They rely on their fallible interpretation of the Bible and hence are very prone to error.. they reject the Apostolic tradition which was meant to help us interpret scripture.. to be a boundary for faulty and correct interpretation..
as John says in 1 john 4: 6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

SO WHOEVER CLAIMS TO HAVE THE SPIRIT SHOULD LISTEN TO THE TEACHING AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH

italo:
You're very correct, but I must point out that Protestantism is not all bad. They have strong points that we Catholics can learn from.

They might be preaching untruths along with the truth...but they still proclaim the name of Christ more fiercely than we Catholics do in many cases.

There is a saying that "the problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, but stupid ones are full of confidence."

How many Catholics are bold enough to preach the truth in a bus, market, to friends in school...how many Catholics can boldly make the sign of the cross in a restaurant etc.

Exactly Bro.. that's why Pope St John Paul II called for the New Evangelization, so that we can re catechize the poorly catechized Catholics and spread the fullness of truth to our separated brethren..

italo:
Good evening, friends.

Sisters and Brothers in Christ.. Bro Italo.. Many greetings

FECOSON:
evidence in the Bible




The evidence is for you to stop using Catholic calendar

Christmas
Esther
New year
Valentine
Etc

Even government observe them

Christmas is simply to celebrate Christ's birth, the beginning of his work of Salvation..

in heaven the Angels celebrated "Christmas"
Luke 2:14 11 for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a babe wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

14 “Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!”

Easter is the celebration of Christ's resurrection which is the foundation of our faith and as Paul says
1 cor 15: 14 if Christ has not been raised, then our PREACHING IS IN VAIN and your FAITH IS IN VAIN.15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.

SUCH A MILESTONE IS WORTH CELEBRATING

Valentine and other days are used to REMEMBER the great things our brothers and sisters in Christ have done and TRY TO IMITATE THEIR FAITH while we look to them for encouragement and inspiration just like the bible says

Phil 3:17 Brethren, join in imitating me, and mark those who so live as you have an example in us

Hebrews 6:12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 13: 7Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.

New Year is celebrating life which comes from God and giving God the glory for that life on that day which a new year begins

I HOPE YOU KNOW THAT MOST IF NOT ALL CHRISTIANS CELEBRATE EASTER AND NEW YEAR, MAYBE CHRISTMAS TO A LESSER EXTENT..

THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS OR ANY CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY, THEY ONLY PERMIT CHRISTIANS IN THE COUNTRY TO CELEBRATE THEIR RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY JUST LIKE THEY ALLOW MUSLIM'S..
BESIDES NOT ALL GOVERNMENT PERMIT SUCH CELEBRATIONS.. GO TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND SEE...

I WILL LEAVE YOU WITH THIS SCRIPTURE
col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.

FECOSON:
Its simple!

What is the difference between Roman catholic church and the Protestant churches?

What are those things done in the Catholic church of the present that were not in the Church of the Apostles time?

1. If you can prove that Peter and his fellow Apostles put on the Priestly Robe, then the first church is catholic
2. If you can prove that Peter ,Paul and the other Apostles use the rosaries then you have a point
3. If Mary the mother of Jesus was venerated to the status of Mother of God during the times of Peter and the other disciples, then you have a point.
4. Show me the earliest Monastery if it coincides with Jesus or His Apostles
5. Which seminary or Monastery did Timothy attend
6. How many Nuns were recorded in the books of Acts of the Apostles.


Are you telling me that we no longer have "Reformation" like modernization? OK answer me

Were your great grandfathers educated like you are now?

Is the number of cars in Nigeria now the same with of that the 1960's

Were Nigeria past leaders graduates apart from yar a' dua and Gej

Was Abuja the capital?

Why are you Christian, were your great grandfathers Christian?

If you prove them, you have a points

With all due respect to you.. you don't make any sense because you answer your own questions you answer your own questions with the REFORMATION STATEMENT...

questions for you too...

Did the apostles use KJV Bible only

Did they were business suits or made the church "ME AND MY WIFE CHURCH "

Did they use daily manna devotional or rhapsodies of realities...

Did they own private jets ??

if you can't provide evidence for this then the early Church was definitely not Pentecostal or protestant

You talk about Seminary for Timothy...
Timothy learned from an apostolic man, that is his seminary...

Paul after he met Jesus went to study in Arabia for 3 years and then went to make sure that what he is preaching is in line with what Jesus taught the apostles
(see gal 2:1-2)
So Timothy didn't need to go to seminary.
but a person in the Four to twentieth century needs to learn all the things from Apostolic times so that he may know not just scripture and theology but also history of how the church has continued from the time of Paul and Timothy to this time...

concerning nuns.. there is also scriptural evidence for this practice that was in seed form at the time..

Paul talks about how virginity and serving God is linked in 1 cor 7 :8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. and 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit;

Jesus himself also talks about people who will be eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom in mat 19

THE BOOK OF ACTS IS NOT THE END OF THE APOSTOLIC ERA.. BECAUSE THE APOSTLES LIVED BEYOND ACTS 28..

PETER AND PAUL DIDN'T PRAY THE ROSARY BECAUSE THE ROSARY HAD NOT COME INTO EXISTENCE IN ITS PRESENT FORM WHILE THEY ALIVE BUT THEY DEFINITELY USED A FORM/VARIATION OF IT CALLED THE PSALTER...

AS FOR PRIESTLY GARMENTS.. UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU NOT ONLY CATHOLICS WHERE PRIESTLY GARMENTS, OTHER CHRISTIAN PROTESTANT SECTS DO TOO.. BESIDES GOD COMMANDED THE USE OF SPECIAL GARMENTS FOR HIS MINISTERS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THIS WAS NOT CONDEMNED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT...
see exodus 28

rhektor:
Where are those historical and biblical evidences?

Sorry it took so long, I was autobanned from the thread

St. Irenaeus
"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul],
having founded and built up the church
[of Rome] . . . handed over the office of
the episcopate to Linus" (Against
Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic
churches transmit their lists: like the
church of the Smyrneans, which records
that Polycarp was placed there by John,
like the church of the Romans, where
Clement was ordained by
Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics
32:2 [A.D. 200]).
The Little Labyrinth
"Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of
Rome from Peter" (The Little Labyrinth
[A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History
5:28:3).
Cyprian of Carthage
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’
he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon
this rock I will build my Church, and the
gates of hell will not overcome it. . . .
’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds
the Church, and to him he gives the
command to feed the sheep [John
21:17], and although he assigns a like
power to all the apostles, yet he
founded a single chair [cathedra], and
he established by his own authority a
source and an intrinsic reason for that
unity. . . . If someone [today] does not
hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he
imagine that he still holds the faith? If
he [should] desert the chair of Peter
upon whom the Church was built, can he
still be confident that he is in the
Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic
Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).
"Cornelius was made bishop by the
decision of God and of his Christ, by the
testimony of almost all the clergy, by
the applause of the people then present,
by the college of venerable priests and
good men, at a time when no one had
been made [bishop] before him—when
the place of [Pope] Fabian, which is the
place of Peter, the dignity of the
sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it
has been occupied both at the will of
God and with the ratified consent of all
of us, whoever now wishes to become
bishop must do so outside. For he
cannot have ecclesiastical rank who
does not hold to the unity of the
Church" (Letters 55:[52]):8 [A.D. 253]).
"With a false bishop appointed for
themselves by heretics, they dare even
to set sail and carry letters from
schismatics and blasphemers to the
chair of Peter and to the principal
church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal
unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).
Eusebius of Caesarea
"Paul testifies that Crescens was sent
to Gaul [2 Tim. 4:10], but Linus, whom
he mentions in the Second Epistle to
Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21] as his companion
at Rome, was Peter’s successor in the
episcopate of the church there, as has
already been shown. Clement also, who
was appointed third bishop of the
church at Rome, was, as Paul testifies,
his co-laborer and fellow-soldier [Phil.
4:3]" (Church History 3:4:9–10 [A.D.
312]).

rhektor:
This thread is not an authority on the issue besides that nobody has proved here how Peter was a Catholic if you think otherwise quote whoever has made such a claim

Indeed.. this thread is not an authority.. but I guess you are, because you say we associate Jesus with our "rubbish"..

We have given you historical and scriptural evidence and you reject it calling it rubbish...

Take all the quotes, especially from the church fathers and do a bias free internet search...

Use neutral sources like Wikipedia and encyclopedia brittanica... Do actual research before you draw your conclusions since you are the authority..

FOR THOSE WHO SAY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH FORGED THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS DOCUMENTS...

ANGLICANS, METHODIST, LUTHERAN, PRESBYTERIAN, CLERGY AND ALL THOSE WELL VERSED IN CHURCH HISTORY KNOW THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DIDN'T FORGE THESE DOCUMENTS BECAUSE THEY ARE CHRONOLOGICALLY AND HISTORICALLY ACCURATE HECK EVEN WELL STUDIED PENTECOSTAL AND EVANGELICAL DOCTORS OF THEOLOGY WHO ARE HONEST WITH THEMSELVES AGREE TOO..

Wilgrea7:
they were not Catholic... the rcc gave them those titles... the early christian father's had varying doctrines themselves... that's why there were councils set up to check things like that and choose a doctrine that would be the belief of the “church"... those whose views didn't agree with the ones decided were called heresies... at least to the best of my knowledge

The Early Church fathers were Catholic in their beliefs... the Councils you mentioned were called by either the Pope or a Christian leader through the Pope...
They didn't have different beliefs either, that's why councils were called to define a belief binding on the universal church and condemn all heresy and heresy promulgators contrary to the Universal Christian belief

Council of Nicea... Called against Arianism (that Jesus is subordinate to the father).. the divinity of Jesus was defined here.. the Catholic deacon Athanasius who later became Bishop of Alexandria defend that belief...

Council of Hippo (393).... for scripture canon attended by Catholics like St Augustine among others

Council of Carthage (397) for scripture canon again which contains the deuterocanonical books to confirm hippo

Council of Ephesus (431) .... was called against nestoranism (belief that Jesus has separate human and separate divine nature).. the theotokos (Mother of God) doctrine was defined here because Jesus is God, and the Council was held in Ephesus because Mary lived there after Jesus's death

Council of Chalcedon (451).. against marcionism.. which says Christ has only one nature.. The doctrine of hypostasis was defined here...

MAYBE "ROMAN CATHOLIC" MAY BE A BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW... THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT JUST ROMAN, THERE ARE ALSO BYZANTINE CATHOLICS, ARMENIAN CATHOLICS ,
COPTIC CATHOLICS , ETHIOPIAN CATHOLICS , EAST SYRIAN CATHOLICS (CHALDEAN), WEST SYRIAN CATHOLICS

A DISCIPLE OF THE APOSTLE JOHN (IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH) WAS CREDITED WITH THE FIRST KNOWN USED OF THE GREEK WORD TO DESCRIBE THE CHURCH..
Ignatius of Antioch in about 107AD on his way to Rome to be killed for his faith.. used the Greek word katholikos (καθολικός),
meaning "universal", "complete" and "whole" to describe the church, writing:
"Wherever the bishop appears,
there let the people be; as
wherever Jesus Christ is, there
is the Catholic Church. It is not
lawful to baptize or give
communion without the
consent of the bishop. On the
other hand, whatever has his
approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be
safe and valid. — Letter to the
Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.
"
It is from the word katholikos ("according to the whole" that the word catholic comes.
When Ignatius wrote the Letter to the
Smyrnaeans in about the year 107 and used the word catholic , he used it as if it were a word already in use to describe the Church.

Wikipedia link for you
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

Ubenedictus:
careful with tertullian...he sometimes play with heresy.

I know Sir.. but the fellow mentioned tertullian.. So I wanted to show him a tertullian quote.. Anyway.. before he fell into heresy he was quite insightful

blackbriar:
eusebius and tertullian

Indeed their writings seems to indicate a catholicity

Tertullian (c. 155 - 250 A.D.)
Likewise, in regard to days of fast, many do not think they should be present at the SACRIFICIAL prayers, because their fast would be broken if they were to receive THE BODY OF THE LORD … THE BODY OF THE LORD HAVING BEEN RECEIVED
AND RESERVED , each point is secured: both the participation IN THE SACRIFICE … ( Prayer 19:1 )
The flesh feeds on THE BODY AND BLOOD OF
CHRIST , so that the SOUL TOO may fatten on
God. ( Resurrection of the Dead 8:3 )
The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord
commanded to be taken at meal times and by
all, we take even before daybreak in
congregations… WE OFFER SACRIFICES FOR THE DEAD on their birthday anniversaries…. We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread should fall upon the ground… (The Crown 3:3-4)
A woman, after the death of her husband, is bound not less firmly but even more so, not to marry another husband…Indeed, she prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, SHE OFFERS THE SACRIFICE . (Monogamy 10:1,4)


St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST , who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD , which is love incorruptible. ( Letter to the Romans 7:3 )
Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST , and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD ; one ALTAR , as there is one bishop with the presbytery… ( Letter to the Philadelphians 4:1 )
They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the
Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST , flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his
goodness, raised up again. ( Letter to Smyrnians 7:1 )


Eusebius (263-339)
1. Eusebius says the Communion is 'only the bread and wine,' "And the fulfilment of the oracle is truly wondrous, to one who recognizes how our Saviour Jesus the Christ of God even now performs through His ministers even today sacrifices after the manner of Melchizedek's. For just as he, who was priest of the Gentiles, is
not represented as offering outward sacrifices, but as blessing Abraham only with wine and bread, in exactly the same
way our Lord and Saviour Himself first, and then all His priests among all nations, perform the spiritual sacrifice according to the customs of the Church , and with
wine and bread darkly express the mysteries of His Body and saving
Blood." (Eusebius, Demonstratio
Evangelica, 5:3)

Wilgrea7:
I'm sure you get the point... he was talking about the time of Constantine... even if he got the dates wrong... I'm sure you get the drift

Do you know any early Church fathers?? Ignatius of Antioch maybe

DoctorAlien:
While the transfiguration doesn’t directly give us information on the state of the dead, it retains theological significance nonetheless. When Peter recounted his experience in 2 Peter 1:16–18, he writes that he witnessed Christ’s coming at that time. In other words, he understood the experience to represent the return of Jesus Christ. Moses and Elijah represent the two classes of God’s people who will be present at that miraculous event: Moses represents the “dead in Christ” who rise to new life, and Elijah represents “those who are alive and remain” who will be translated to heaven and eternal life without ever experiencing death in the first place (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Understanding that the transfiguration is a representation of the second coming of Christ also helps us understand Christ’s promise that “some standing here … shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God,” spoken a few days before the transfiguration (Luke 9:27).

cc: shadeyinka

Indeed... but the point is Moses who died was present there and not in the grave waiting for the second coming...

besides the transfiguration is not the only revelation we have...
there's the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1, WITNESSING IS AN ACTIVE THING, WHICH GRAVE DWELLERS CAN'T DO

There's also the spirits of just men made perfect IN HEAVEN, at the time Hebrews was written WHICH IS NOT AT THE 2ND COMING...

Rev 5:8 has the 24 elders praising God and Offering the prayers of the Saints to God..
UNCONSCIOUS PEOPLE IN THE GRAVE CAN'T DO THAT..

rev 6:9-11, talks about souls of martyrs under God's altar seeking for vengeance??
HOW DID THEY GET THERE SINCE THERE ARE NO SOULS IN HEAVEN, THEY WERE NOT TAKEN UP LIKE ELIJAH, AND HAVE CLEARLY NOT BEING RESURRECTED..

WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWERS

ss

DoctorAlien:
shadeyinka,

On the mount of transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were present. Moses was resurrected by Jesus and taken to Heaven(Jude 9). Elijah was taken alive to Heaven. They came down from Heaven to that mount of transfiguration.

I wouldn't like to bore you but remember that Peter calls Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. But we know that Jesus was slain about 4000 years into the creation of the world. So in essence, anything that must surely take place is seen as done already in GOD's eyes. That is why Jesus calls Abraham, Isaac and Jacob "living".

Twisting scripture again... Jude 9 doesn't mention Jesus or resurrection, it only says the DEVIL was Contending with MICHAEL for the "body" of Moses... no resurrection is mentioned, no Jesus is mentioned no heaven is mentioned, stop saying what is not there
jude1: 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

DoctorAlien:
Jesus was telling the Jews that in the eyes of GOD, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are as good and living in GOD's eyes, because they are destined for the first resurrection which is for the holy and blessed.(Rev. 20)

Bear in mind that part of Jesus' audience then were the Saduccees, who did not believe in the resurrection. So, Jesus effectually dealt a blow to their incorrect beliefs by telling that Abraham will live again.

Wrong again " Jesus said HE IS GOD OF THE LIVING, (Present tense) NOT OF THE DEAD, NOT THAT HE WILL BE GOD OF THE LIVING AT THE RESURRECTION,

OYA RELATE IT TO THE TRANSFIGURATION WHERE WE ACTUALLY SEE MOSES AND ELIJAH WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN SOUL SLEEP

DoctorAlien:
"But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother...?" Matt. 12:48

"For whosoever shall do will of my Father which is in Heaven, the same is my ... mother" Matt. 12:50

So, why are you not worshiping all the good women in the NT, and indeed every woman that does GOD's will, because Jesus calls them His mother?

You want to divert the topic again abi...

My friend.. go and sit down in one place

DoctorAlien:
Your questions assume a premise: that the soul is different from the body. Gen. 2:7 tells that soul = body + breath. So, when a person is blown to pieces, the spirit(breath) which GOD gave returns to Him, while the body returns to dust.

wrong again... like ubenedictus just pointed out... Jesus talks about killing the body but not killing the soul... if they are inseparable, how can someone kill the body but not the soul?? see mat 10:28

My earlier questions still stand... waiting for your answer

DoctorAlien:
Surely the soul can die. A soul is simply a life. Isn't it very clear from Gen. 2:7 that a soul is not a sort of thing that escapes the body when a person dies?

The Bible calls fishes and animals souls too. Does it mean that they have a conscious form which exits their body at death?

Question for you...
what happens if a person dies in an explosion is his soul also blown to pieces with his body since they can't be separated... do the pieces of guts and bones and blood contain smaller pieces of the soul in them...

what if a person is eaten by a shark, is his soul eaten with the flesh too, when the shark defecates, is the soul part of the faeces too.. since they can't be separated...

THE HUMAN SOUL CANNOT DIE BECAUSE IT COMES DIRECTLY FROM GOD, THE HUMAN SOUL IS IMMORTAL, DEATH OR SECOND DEATH FOR THE SOUL IS ETERNAL DAMNATION...
NOT CEASING FROM EXISTENCE..

DoctorAlien:
I want to correct the first mistake you made: the Bible doesn't call it "my" or "your" spirit; it calls it "the" spirit. The spirit belongs to GOD.

What then is that spirit? We can be sure that it is not a conscious being. The spirit that returns to GOD is simply the breath of life which He gave in Genesis 2:7. That spirit + body = soul, Gen. 2:7 tells us.

"All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of GOD is in my nostrils;" Job 27:3

Job points out that the spirit of GOD is in His nostrils. Surely the spirit is not a conscious being, because the only thing in our nostrils is breath.

faulty interpretation of old testament again...

Hebrews 12:23 talks about us coming to spirits of just men made perfect... how can we come to "breath" that has no consciousness...

1 Peter 3 again talks about Christ preaching to spirits in prison... was he preaching to "breath" that has no consciousness...

stole twisting scripture around.. you have no case...

Splinz:
You are wasting your time bro. These people's sheer ignorance and blindness of everything biblical, and even lacking of commonsense is really a heartbreak. It is no surprise anyway. All they know is to chant "Hail Mary".

Imagine such argument like "Mary didn't live in a tent". What foolishness! For goodness sake, a "tent" is simply a house! (1 Kings 12:16). Are these people saying that Mary their god didn't live in a house?

You've really tried, and I commend your efforts. As for me, I'm with the scriptural admonition that "all foolish arguments must be avoided".

See who is talking about ignorance...

Tent doesn't always mean a house, though it can be a temporary dwelling tent are also used in worship for keeping the ark etc...

We know Mary didn't live in a tent... so concerning the context of Judges 5 Mary is not a tent woman...

BESIDES THAT THE GREATNESS OF A PERSON IS SEEN IN WHAT THEY DID
WHICH PURPOSE IS GREATER THEN

KILLING SISERA OR GIVING BIRTH TO AND RAISING JESUS CHRIST....
We don't need your errors, keep you Sabbath worship and soul sleep to yourselves

shadeyinka:
"Original Protestants" ....ha ha ha ha

Thank God I am not protesting against anyone. I would have been a counterfeit Protester

Lol.. Martin Luther and his companions protested and they never rejected the title protestants... we may use it a little generally, but the point is that most other denominations that came after that broke out from Luther and his colleagues Churches... So in a sense, they are protestants atleast by association..

DoctorAlien:
More blows to your erroneous beliefs, easymancfc:

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." Psa. 115:17

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psa. 6:5

"For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." Isa. 38:18

It seems GOD knew that many people will misinterpret the message He would pass through Peter and erroneously claim that Christ went to preach to spirits of dead people, and so He spoke through Isaiah that dead people cannot hope for GOD's truth. Now if that is the case that the dead cannot hope for GOD's truth, How could it be that Jesus went to preach this truth to dead people?

Using old testament to prove wrong what the new testament has proved right... I JUST PITY YOU...

KEEP ON HOLDING ON TO YOUR FALSE OLD TESTAMENT ADVENTIST BELIEF...

BECAUSE JOHN, PETER, PAUL, AND THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS DONT SHARE THAT VIEW...

ALL THE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES I HAVE GIVEN ARE QUITE CLEAR FOR ALL TO SEE,

PETER SAID CHRIST WENT TO PREACH TO SOULS IN PRISON,
HEBREW SAYS HE LEAD THOSE SOULS WHEN HE ASCENDED AND HE TALKS ABOUTS SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT IN HEAVEN AND A CLOUD OF WITNESSES

JOHN TALKS ABOUT 24 ELDERS WITH THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN, THE MARTYRS UNDER THE ALTAR, THE GREAT MULTITUDE

PAUL SAYS BEEN ABSENT FROM THE BODY IS TO BE WITH CHRIST

KEEP HOLDING ON TO OLD TESTAMENT THINGS...

I WILL HOLD ON TO NEW TESTAMENT REVELATION...

YOU CAN'T PROVE THE NEW TESTAMENT WRONG WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT..

.

DoctorAlien:
The Bible said that Christ, through the Spirit, preached unto the spirits in prison "when once the longsuffering of GOD waited IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING..." 1 Pet. 3:18-20

How clear does it get?

You are right.. very clear... PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON...
point is... HE PREACHED TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON AND THEY BELIEVED WITH THEIR CONSCIOUSNESS... DON'T TRY TO SUGAR COAT IT...

New International Version
After being made alive, he went and made
proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--
New Living Translation
So he went and preached to the spirits in
prison--
English Standard Version
in which he went and proclaimed to the
spirits in prison,
Berean Study Bible
in which He also went and preached to the
spirits in prison
Berean Literal Bible
in which also having gone, He preached to
the spirits in prison
New American Standard Bible
in which also He went and made
proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
King James Bible
By which also he went and preached unto
the spirits in prison;