₦airaland Forum

DoctorAlien:
easymancfc,

Peter's name in Greek is Petros(masculine noun), meaning a small, detached stone. But the Greek word which is translated rock in Matt. 16:18 is petra(feminine noun). In other words, Jesus said, "you are Petros, and on this petra will I build my church..."

Paul stated emphatically that Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel in Antioch(Gal. 2:14). He even rebuked Peter. So, if Peter was the rock on which the church was built: does it mean that the foundation of the church walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel? How can the foundation of the church be a man susceptible to falling into error? Is such a foundation sure?

You are painting much into the Story, it says there that Peter became afraid when the Jews saw him eating with the Gentiles, He was scared and Paul rightly corrected him... He didn't declare it was wrong to eat with gentiles... Jesus didn't take Peter's authority even after he denied him 3 times, likewise did that not take away from him.. Paul was subject to the decision of Peter and the apostles according to acts 15:15-22.. because he took issue of disagreement from that same Antioch to Peter and the apostles in Jerusalem...

on the Petra and Petros issue, you rightly mentioned that Petra is Feminine and Petros Is masculine, so why would Mathew who was writing and Jesus who was speaking call Peter "Petra" which is Feminine Petros is more appropriate because it is masculine and Peter is a man.. the answer would be found in the language Jesus spoke, which is Aramaic, and according to the Aramaic, the word is "Kepha" which means "ROCK"

DoctorAlien:
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9)

Peter emphatically states that every Christian is a royal priest to GOD. Why does Roman Catholicism "ordain priests" who blaspheme by claiming to have power to forgive sins?

Indeed we are a kingdom of priests like Peter rightly says... In the CATHOLIC CHURCH we call that "THE UNIVERSAL PRIESTHOOD of all believers. Peter here was QUOTING THE OLD TESTAMENT if you don't know, he was quoting exodus 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”
but just like all of Israel are priests... but yet God told Moses to establish a Priesthood from Aaron's sons and Levi (see deut 18:1-
so Also we have the MINISTERIAL PRIESTHOOD, of which Paul seems to allude to in Romans 15:15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God 16 to be a MINISTER of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the PRIESTLY SERVICE of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

DoctorAlien:
Peter was never the chief Shepherd, neither was he in any way the overall leader of the church. It was not even recorded that Peter went to Rome, not to talk of being the Bishop there. In Jn. 21:15-17, Jesus simply reversed the denial by Peter. Peter denied Jesus thrice, and thrice did Jesus elicit the confession of faith in Himself from Peter.

Jesus did not give the apostles power to forgive sins(which belongs to GOD alone). He simply told them that they could declare people forgiven of GOD based on how they respond to the message

with all due respect to you... you misrepresent the Bible, Jesus did not just reverse Peter's denial he also Added. "FEED MY SHEEP " WHO FEEDS SHEEP BUT A SHEPHERD....

John 20:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “FEED MY LAMBS.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “TEND MY SHEEP.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “FEED MY SHEEP.

there's also a similar passage where Jesus puts Peter in charge of the others

Luke 22:31 “SIMON, SIMON, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for YOU that YOUR faith may not fail; and when YOU have turned again, STRENGTHEN YOUR BRETHREN.”

On sin, Again you say what scriptures don't say... Jesus didn't say if you "DECLARE PEOPLE FORGIVEN" he said " if "YOU FORGIVE PEOPLE'S SINS"
Jesus also talks about RETAINING SINS WHICH YOU FAIL TO MENTION.

John 20:23 If YOU FORGIVE the SINS of any, THEY ARE FORGIVEN; if you RETAIN the SINS of any, THEY ARE RETAINED.”

JESUS IS CLEARLY SAYING IF THEY FORGIVE ANYONE THEN THAT PERSON'S SINS ARE FORGIVEN...
drawing also from their power to bind and loose according to mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

As for Peter being in Rome, the Bible never said Peter never went to Rome, and as I have shown in earlier reply, their is biblical evidence that he was there... not to mention the Mountain of historical and archaeological evidence that support it...
AND THE TESTIMONIES OF MANY EARLY CHURCH FATHERS WHICH I WILL GLADLY PROVIDE

DoctorAlien:
Wht are you peddling lies?

1 Cor. 10:4; Rom. 9:33; Isa. 28:16 all identify the Rock Christ was talking about.

Even Peter himself knew that he was not the Rock which Christ was talking about(1 Pet. 2:6).

Now, we all know that Peter was not the Rock which Christ was talking about. But then, even if he was, was Peter a Pope? Was Peter the Bishop of Rome?

The answer is "NO!" Therefore, Roman Catholicism is built on lies.

Answer:
Which proves....what? Christ is referred to as a "stumbling-stone" and a "rock of scandal" sometimes, as we all know. So what? Why does that supposedly show that Peter cannot be the rock on which Christ built His Church? Besides, there is an unmistakable Greek word for "small stone," and that is lithos. If St. Matthew had intended to convey to his readers that St. Peter was only a small stone in contrast to "the rock," he certainly had an unmistakable word available to him. If we're going to emphasize the Greek over the Aramaic, then let's do it, but let's do it all the way! Christ would then have said, "You are Lithos ("stone", and upon this petra ("rock" I will build my Church." Why didn't He?

Catholicism doesn't deny that Jesus is the Rock according to 1 cor 10, we know Jesus is the ROCK OF AGES... according to other passages you listed, those don't seem to tall about the Rock of the Church but a stone to make men stumble which Jesus is...
We know Jesus is the cornerstone, but Jesus himself calls Peter a rock, the Rock on which he would Build his Church.

on whether Peter was in Rome,
the Bible never says Peter never went to Rome...


There is, in the greeting at the end of the first epistle: “The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13, Knox). Babylon is a code-word for Rome. Consider now the other New Testament citations: “Another angel, a second, followed, saying, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion’” (Rev. 14:. “The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath” (Rev. 16:19). “[A]nd on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations’” (Rev. 17:5). “And he called out with a mighty voice, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great’” (Rev. 18:2). “[T]hey will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, ‘Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come’” (Rev. 18:10). “So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence” (Rev. 18:21).

These references can’t be to the one-time capital of the Babylonian empire. That Babylon had been reduced to an inconsequential village by the march of years, military defeat, and political subjugation; it was no longer a “great city.” It played no important part in the recent history of the ancient world. From the New Testament perspective, the only candidates for the “great city” mentioned in Revelation are Rome and Jerusalem.
We say it is Rome because of the great Persecution. The authorities knew that Peter was a leader of the Church, and the Church, under Roman law, was considered organized atheism. (The worship of any gods other than the Roman was considered atheism.) Peter would do himself, not to mention those with him, no service by advertising his presence in the capital—after all, mail service from Rome was then even worse than it is today, and letters were routinely read by Roman officials. Peter was a wanted man, as were all Christian leaders. Why encourage a manhunt? We also know that the apostles sometimes referred to cities under symbolic names (cf. Rev. 11:.

DoctorAlien:
What does it mean to lord it over the people if it's not claim that you have power to forgive sins, or to impersonate the chief Shepherd, or to ask them to bring indulgences for them to gain salvation?

That's not Lording it over because Jesus Christ gave all 11 apostles not just Peter (john 20:20-23) the Power to forgive sin, in Catholicism, all ordained ministers (presbyters and bishops) have that power not just the Pope,
on the issue of indulgences, granted the Church itself accepts the fact that it was abused as for impersonating the chief shepherd, historical that can be proven and scripturally too (John 21:15-17)...

DoctorAlien:
1 Peter 5:1-4 ...'The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.'

A rebuke to Roman Catholicism from the very man they believe to be their leader and first pope!

That verse doesn't rebuke Roman Catholicism but rebukes anyone who as a Shepherd, Lord it over his flock, which a lot of protestant, pentecostal and evangelical leaders as well as some popes are guilty of....

Maybe you don't know this
one of the title of the Pope is :SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD

luckyCO:
Jesus was talking to Apostle Peter.
But the rock there is symbolic. He know something that is why he was given keys.
It is that he know made him qualified to have the key.
They is door of salvation.
Peter has used the key to open the door waiting for the time Christ will stand up from mercy seat.
So it is not about peter and head of christianity,it is about salvation Christ gave us.

Jesus calling Peter the Rock is not symbolic, he meant for Peter to be the Head of his Church, Besides like I said earlier, if it was merely a symbol the name change would not have been necessary, Just like all other name change in scriptures are not symbolic but actually mean something and are fulfilled especially in the case of Abraham...

and Jesus himself showed Peter to be a leader when he said to Peter
Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

John 21: 15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

by doing this Jesus kept Peter as both SHEPHERD (John 21:15- 17) and STEWARD (Luke 22:31) over the other apostles

He did this because leaders are necessary not just among the apostles but also in the whole church... that is why Paul also said in Ephesians 4: 11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 
WHY
12 for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.

luckyCO:
I leave you to magnify Peter beyond his place in the body of Christ.
Only know that Peter is magnified in the Roman Catholic Church to make it look as if Pope is peter's succession as to that whatever pope said God has said, that is what we are disputing.

We don't magnify Peter above his Place in the Catholic Church, the Bible clearly gives him a primacy among the apostles... it's anti-Catholic people who bring him down in order to make the Catholic Church look bad...
THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of
Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be
bound in Heaven; whatever you loose on earth
will be loosed. in Heaven.
Mark 16:7
Angel sent to announce the Resurrection to
Peter.
Luke 22:32
Peter's faith will strengthen his brethren.
Note: The word you [I have prayed for
you.]
The Greek is in the personal tense, not
the plural like:
All you Apostles .
Luke 24:34
Risen Jesus first appeared to Peter.
John 21:17
Given Christ's flock as chief shepherd.
Acts 1:13-26
Peter headed meeting which elected Matthias to
replace Judas.
Acts 2:14
Peter received the first converts.
Acts 3:6-7
Peter performed the first miracle after
Pentecost.
Acts 5:1-11
Peter's words inflict deadly punishment on
Ananias and Saphira.
Acts 8:21
Peter excommunicated the first heretic, Simon
Magnus.
Acts 10:44-46
Peter received a revelation to admit the Gentles
into the Church.
Acts 15
Peter Lead the first Catholic council in
Jerusalem.
Acts 15:7-12
Peter spoke saying: "My brothers, he said, ....
But we believe that we are saved in the same
way as they are: through the grace of the Lord
Jesus." The entire assembly fell silent, and they
listened to Barnabas and Paul describing all the
signs and wonders God had worked through them
among the gentiles."
Peter pronounces the first dogmatic decision.
Galatians 1:18
After his conversion, Paul visits the chief
Apostle.
Matthew 10:1-4 , Mark 3:16-19 , Luke 6:14-16 ,
Acts 1:13
Peter's name always heads the list of Apostles.
Matthew 18:21 , Mark 8:29 , Luke 12:41 , John 6:69
Peter spoke for the Apostles.
Luke 9:32 , Mark 16:7
Peter and his companions.
Peter is mentioned 191 times in the New
Testament. All the other Apostles names
combined are mentioned only 130 times. And the
most commonly referenced apostle apart from
Peter is John, whose name appears 48 times.

Remember what the Bible says
1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

SO DON'T BRING DOWN WHOM THE LORD HAS HONOURED...

Concerning the Rock argument...
It is clear that Peter is the Rock on which Christ would build his Church according to Mathew 16.. because Christ would not praised his answer, put him down by calling him small stone and then give him authority... it follows that Christ praised his answer, Exalted him and then gave him authority... Besides if Christ was putting him down, the Change of name from "SIMON" To "PETER" would not be necessary instead, according to scriptures change of name normally shows a rise to importance or greatness, ABRAM to ABRAHAM and SARAI to SARAH was for increase them from just been "FATHER " to being "FATHER OF MANY NATIONS" see gen 17:5-15... Same goes for the name change from Simon to Peter...

we know that Christ is the Rock but Christ also calls Peter the Rock... 1 cor 10:4 doesn't take away from Christ because Paul who made that statement also calls the apostles of which Peter is the head " THE FOUNDATION OF THE CHURCH WITH CHRIST AS THE CORNER STONE and so does John who called them the foundation of the new Jerusalem see
Ephesians 2:19bbut you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the HOUSEHOLD OF GOD, 20 BUILT UPON the FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and PROPHETS, CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF being the CORNERSTONE,

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had TWELVE FOUNDATIONS, and on them the twelve names of the TWELVE APOSTLES of the LAMB.

please I would like questions to be sent to me, my test is next week... iezekiel13@yahoo.com

Ubenedictus:
there is no comma in d original hebrew or greek.

Indeed Ubenedictis... I neglected to mention that, in the Greek, there's no comma, I don't know how I forgot about that.. that for pointing that out, there would have not been a need to speak all those grammar I spoke

luckyCO:
It is not in his power to shut it. Christ will shut it when he stands up from the throne.
It is the door of salvation under grace is what the key is for.

Christ is the one who gives office,if any of his office holder dies He himself chooses another not man.

Christ will indeed shut the door of salvation at the end of time.. and he has the key and what he shuts no one can open and vice versa (see rev 3:7-
but it's not an EITHER.. OR ... it's BOTH.... JESUS has the KEY, and HE gives it to PETER, just like David had the Key but gave it to Shebna, and later Eliakim...
Indeed Christ is the one who gives office and if any of his office holder dies he can give office to another through his other office holders... because he told his disciples that
Mat 10:40 “He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Luke 22:29 as my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you

john 17:8 for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee;

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

We see In all these passages Jesus Christ communicating his Authority to his apostles...
And we even see in mat 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven...

and we see the Church act in that stead in Christ's Authority that Peter and the other apostles using Christ's Authority to pick Judas's successor (acts 1:20-26), and they use that authority again in the matter of the Judaizers in Acts 15:15-21...

Peter used that power to exclude and admit on Simon Magnus in acts 8:23, and Ananias and Sapphira, in acts 5:1-11...
Paul also uses that power to exclude in 1 cor 5: 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? LET HIM WHO HAS DONE THIS BE REMOVED FROM AMONG YOU...
this was concerning a man sleeping with his father's wife

he also showed the power to readmit that same man in 2 cor 2: 6 For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.

Paul also gives instructions to Timothy and Titus to ordain people because they have the authority of Christ to do so because hands were laid on them by the apostles who got that power from Christ ( see 2 Tim 2:2, 1:6-7, 1 Tim 3:1-7, Titus 1:5-end...)

luckyCO:
I would wish that matt 16:18 says "And I also say to you that you are peter, and upon[i]you[/i] I will build my church..."

You will notice comma before "And upon this rock I will build my church..." to show He has started makinh another point.

Christ was not pointing at peter as he was saying this, Just to cause seperation between the true Gospel and the false gospel,gospel of man and Gospel of Christ,he put commas there that only wise will understand.

Those who follow man will quote to justify to their damnation ie spirit of delusion.

with due respect to you sir, context is key.... Jesus was giving Peter Authority and not putting him down in any way. ..
Mat 16: 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you BIND on earth shall be BOUND in heaven, and whatever you LOOSE on earth SHALL BE LOOSED in heaven.”

He said all this in Response to Peter's confession... not just the Rock and church statement but the authority of the "KEYS TO THE KINGDOM" TO "BIND AND LOOSE...
this fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 22: 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the KEY of the house of DAVID; HE SHALL OPEN, and NONE SHALL SHUT; and he SHALL SHUT, and NONE SHALL OPEN.

the Greek word σοι or soi means you in the singular form meaning he was talking to Peter alone... The Church is the new Kingdom, Jesus is the King of this Kingdom... so just like in the Davidic Kingdom of old... the king (David) had a steward Shebna, who because of his sins was replaced by Eliakim, So is Peter Made the Steward of Jesus's Kingdom, the Church....

So indeed Jesus was not putting Peter down because it will not fit the context of praising his answer, putting him down then giving him authority... Instead it's follows that JESUS PRAISED HIS ANSWER, ELEVATED HIM AND GAVE HIM AUTHORITY..

Final note... yes he opened the door and we all came in.. but he also has power to shut it... not just open... and that Power didn't die with Peter just like Judas Is cariot's "office" didn't die with him and he had to be succeeded see acts 1:20-26, so also did all the apostles who died their office was taken by others to ensure continuity and authority in the Church....
Read the early Church Fathers like Eusebius, Tertullian and Origen for more on how things happened in the early Church...

thanks... for the link... I'm doing the whole course now

to the man who said no man born of a woman can forgive sin is obviously wrong because Jesus himself was a man (or part man) and he forgave sins and he gave that power to his apostles in John 20:21-23.
.
Jesus gave his apostles power to do certain things before he ascended... He gave them power to heal, preach, teach, baptize and wait for it "FORGIVE AND RETAIN SINS" ... see mat 28:19-end, mat 16:14-17, and we see them exercise all this powers in the early Church..
see acts 19:18 Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
2 cor 2: 10 Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

James 5:1616 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

We see that in the early Church confessing a sin publicly was practiced and as Paul said in 1 cor 2 it is the apostle that forgives finally in the person or presence of Christ...

public confession was practiced until the Church decided out of prudence that it is better for the sake of privacy and serious sins to confess privately to the Bishop or priest who are Successors of the apostles...

the priests in the Catholic Church is the actually called the presbytery which comes from the Greek word Presbytheros which you call elder, but presbytheros translates directly to English as priest not elder. On the subject of pastors, there is no mention of pastor in the books of titus and Timothy that talks about ordaining bishops, presbyters (priests Or elders) and deacons) which are the three main orders of ministry in the Catholic Church...
pastor has to do with their roles as Shepherds as Jesus told Peter to feed hod lamb and sheep In John 21:15-19.. back to Apostolic succession.

Jesus told the disciplines that he would be with them TILL THE END OF THE AGES... but not all of them would be alive TILL THE END OF THE AGE.. so how can this be?
for everyone who dies, they are to have successors who would continue in their office.. we see this in acts 1:20-26 when Mathias was chosen to succeed Judas is cariot.
Paul also passed that message to Timothy in 2 Tim 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
So what Timothy learned from Paul, would be Passed to "FAITHFUL MEN" who will pass it to others... and how did Timothy get the authority and knowledge from Paul
2 Tim 1: 6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you.

So this authority can be passed through laying on of hands... and did it include?
"POWER, LOVE AND SELF CONTROL"
IT'S SAFE TO SAY THAT THE POWER INCLUDES THE POWER TO FORGIVE SIN WHICH JESUS GAVE THE APOSTLES... now this laying on of hands is not for everyone except those consecrated to God's service that's why Paul told Timothy In 1 Tim 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man’s sins; keep yourself pure.


So who would have this power they had, anyone who could show their line of ordination (laying hands) back to the apostles and their successors, which Catholic priests can, just pick up your phone and call any Catholic diocese and ask for the LINE OF ORDINATION (LAYING ON OF HANDS ) OF THEIR BISHOP BACK TO THE APOSTLES...

I WILL ALWAYS TELL YOU.. STUDY REAL HISTORY... STOP GOING TO ANTI CATHOLIC SITES

Catholicism is not a false religion... it is the Church Christ founded and we'll learned people who study good history will know that not people who follow people who use cartoons or gotquestions.com who the owner (Michael Hourdmann) is a Calvinist once saved always saved heretic... if you want the faith of the early Christians and you do your research you will find out the truth.. instead of going to biased anti-Catholic websites to get info for nairaland visit accurate historical sites... Jesus founded a church on Peter and that church Can be historically traced to be the Catholic Church go and read the Church fathers heart from the early Christians like Justin the martyr, cyril of Jerusalem, Ignatius of Antioch, polycarp, most of whom knew the apostles and learned from them.
the Church was one until 1054 when the great schism happened and even with that they were still united in most beliefs until Luther came along in 1554 and gave birth to all the divisions we have today.

the best response you can give is that the Church was corrupted but then you make Jesus a liar when he said in mat 16:18-19 "THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NEVER PREVAIL AGAINST IT"...

On being too religious... Religion is good, and you can't accuse Catholics alone for being too religious, you find such people everywhere... and Christianity is indeed a religion because the Bible says so
1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 16 Great indeed, we confess, is the MYSTERY of OUR RELIGION:

James 1:26 If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

1 Tim 2:10 but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion

So religion Is not bad but as the scriptures above say, helps build righteousness...

ON FAITH ALONE...
the Catholic Church believes in GRACE ALONE but not FAITH ALONE...
yes at our initial justification, when we become Christians (born again ) we were indeed saved by our faith alone but after we become children of God, our work will also help to justify us before Men and God, exactly as Ephesians 2:8-10 says

there is no "faith alone"any where in the Bible... apart from James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE.

We belief that true faith is one that works as Galatians 5:6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
any faith that doesn't produce good works is a dead faith James 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Wonderful piece Uben... It is indeed Grace that sustains us.. and this grace flows from the sacraments (reconciliation and the Eucharist) and scripture ... May this grace continue to strengthen us to do HIS will and as 1 Peter 1:2b says May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

On Mathew 23:9.. Am sure you don't call your father "FATHER" or the head of your Church "PAPA" because if you do then you too are guilty of Mathew 23:9 because it says clearly CALL NO MAN... that would not just include the Pope or Catholic priests... You need to understand the context of Mathew 23..
In the time of Jesus and even before he was born the Roman emperors demanded to be called the title "Father God" "pater deus" in Latin and the scribes and Pharisees demanded also to be called "Teacher" or Rabbi" and Jesus said call no man "Teacher" in verse 8 and "Father" in verse 9 because of the back drop of people making themselves bigger than God because of those titles.. but today we call people Teacher and Father these days and it doesn't violate Mathew 23:8&9 because
Jesus himself calls ABRAHAM father in Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘FATHER ABRAHAM, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Stephen called the PHARISEES FATHERS
acts 7:2 And Stephen said:

“Brethren and FATHERS, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our FATHER ABRAHAM, when he was in Mesopota′mia, before he lived in Haran

Paul called himself FATHER
1 Cor 4: 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many FATHERS. For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

John calls his audience FATHERS also
1 john 2:13 I am writing to you, FATHERS, because you know him who is from the beginning.

so calling our ministers father doesn't violate Jesus in Mathew 23:9 because they participate and originate their fatherhood from God through the gospel as Ephesians 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every FATHERHOOD in heaven and on earth is named,

On being successors of the apostles, yes apostles have to have been present when Jesus was alive but not that does not disrupt the succession because all the Apostolic age men oases away but yet Christian leaders still existed... they are called PATRIARCHS and BISHOPS (EPISCOPOS in Greek ) what matters is for the Apostolic Faith to be passed on...
Paul said to Timothy in 2 tim 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

So it doesn't have to be apostles or Apostolic men because they would all eventually die off.. what matters Is that they are "Faithful Men"

luckycliff:
Was Peter the First Pope and Head of the Church?
We often hear it said that Peter was the first head of the church.
If this is true, surely we would expect such a major doctrine to be
plainly stated in the Bible. So consider what we find in Scripture.
We hear it said that Peter was the head of the church, but
Ephesians 1:22,23 says that Jesus was head over the church and
all things are under His feet. Ephesians 5:22,23 says Jesus is head
of the church like a husband is head of his wife, but the Bible
clearly teaches that a woman can have only one husband as her
head. So how could the church have both Peter and Jesus as
head?
We hear it said that Peter's office is the foundation on which the church is
built. But 1 Corinthians 3:11 says no one can lay any foundation other
than Jesus Christ.
We hear it said that the man who heads the church cannot be married. But
in Matthew 8:14 Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law, so Peter was married.
And 1 Timothy 4:1-3 speaks against the doctrine that forbids marriage.
We hear it said that people should bow to honor the man who heads the
church. But in Acts 10:25,26 Peter refused to allow a man to bow to him.
He said, "Get up, I myself also am a man."
We hear people use terms like "holy Father" to exalt the man who is said
to be the head of the church. But in Matthew 23:9 Jesus said not to exalt
men with such religious titles, because "one is your Father, who is in
heaven."
We hear it said that modern religious leaders are successors of the
apostles. But Acts 1:21,22 shows that, in order to be an apostle, one had to
be an eyewitness that Jesus had been raised from the dead.
Surely Peter was an important and influential apostle in the early church.
But why does the Bible nowhere describe him as participating in these
things that the head of the church is supposed to do?
For more information about Peter as Pope,

My dear brother I am going to say this as lovingly as I possibly can, you read scripture our of context and without historical perspective...
Let me start with
1 Tim 4:1-3
that statement does not apply to the Catholic Church or Catholic clergy because lay Catholics have husbands and wives, and priests marry couples in the Church so the Catholic Church doesn't teach that it is wrong to marry, but rather it is a discipline the Church adopted overtime following the Teaching and example of both Jesus Christ and Paul...
Jesus was celibate, he did not marry and he said in Mathew 19:10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this precept, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and THERE ARE EUNUCHS WHO HAVE MADE THEMSELVES EUNUCHS FOR THE SAKE of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”

Paul Also did not marry and he said in 1 cor 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
verse 32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband. 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

Concerning Peter being the First Pope...
Yes indeed Christ is the Foundation and Rock of the Church... But Christ also said he was going to found his church on Peter see Mathew 16: 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

here we see Jesus the Rock makes Peter the Rock on which he will build his church, does this contradict scripture? NO
because Peter and the apostles are the foundations of Christianity even though Jesus is the source as Ephesians 2:but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, because he gave them the command to establish his church ( Mathew 16:18 for Peter. 28:19-20 for all apostles)..

And we know from scripture that Peter wasn't just important, he was the leader of the Early Church see the following passages
Isaiah 22:15-25
Prophecy of the Catholic Papacy foretold in the
Old Testament.
Matthew 16:13-19
Upon this rock (Peter) I will build my Church. And
the gates of Hell can never overpower it.
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of
Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be
bound in Heaven; whatever you loose on earth
will be loosed. in Heaven.
Mark 6:7
Angel sent to announce the Resurrection to
Peter.
Luke 22:32
Peter's faith will strengthen his brethren.
Note: The word you [I have prayed for
you.]
The Greek is in the personal tense, not
the plural like:
All you Apostles .
Luke 24:34
Risen Jesus first appeared to Peter.
John 21:17
Given Christ's flock as chief shepherd.
Acts 1:13-26
Peter headed meeting which elected Matthias to
replace Judas.
Acts 2:14
Peter received the first converts.
Acts 3:6-7
Peter performed the first miracle after
Pentecost.
Acts 5:1-11
Peter's words inflict deadly punishment on
Ananias and Saphira.
Acts 8:21
Peter excommunicated the first heretic, Simon
Magnus.
Acts 10:44-46
Peter received a revelation to admit the Gentles
into the Church.
Acts 15
Peter Lead the first Catholic council in
Jerusalem.
Acts 15:7-12
Peter spoke saying: "My brothers, he said, ....
But we believe that we are saved in the same
way as they are: through the grace of the Lord
Jesus." The entire assembly fell silent, and they
listened to Barnabas and Paul describing all the
signs and wonders God had worked through them
among the gentiles."
Peter pronounces the first dogmatic decision.
Galatians 1:18
After his conversion, Paul visits the chief
Apostle.
Matthew 10:1-4 , Mark 3:16-19 , Luke 6:14-16 ,
Acts 1:13
Peter's name always heads the list of Apostles.
Matthew 18:21 , Mark 8:29 , Luke 12:41 , John 6:69
Peter spoke for the Apostles.
Luke 9:32 , Mark 16:7
Peter and his companions.

Concerning Peter having a mother Inlaw, that doesn't deny his role as Pope because like I said earlier, Celibacy was a discipline in the Church that developed overtime following scriptural examples (of Jesus and Paul as I have shown above)..
Even at that Peter might have been a widower when he became a discipline of Jesus because his wife is no where mentioned in scriptures and after Jesus healed his mother in law she got up and served them which according to Jewish law was the duty of the Wife and the Mother Inlaw would not have done that if the wife was there and more so the wife was not recorded to even be with her sick mother which Is rather strange.. So if he is a widower then he would have dedicated all his life to the gospel mission because he would hardly have time for making a family because of traveling and persecution and such and Paul further emphasized the need for that in 1 cor 7: 26 I think that in view of the impendingdistress it is well for a person to remain as he is. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage..
On a final note some priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches have wives and Some Anglican and Lutheran converts are allowed to remain married and be priests in the Western Catholic Churches

Hello Everyone, am Easyman (Ezekiel).. Am really happy about this thread, although am sad am just discovering it today... I think some of you might have seen my posts and response to anti Catholic claims on nairaland... I am familiar with Ubenedictus, Syncan and italo as I have seen their own response on said posts... Am just happy to be among fellow Catholics and I hope we help each other grow in the faith...

thanks

majour:
I honestly don't know what u mean by unbiased source, the crusades are history so what exactly do u want to see, should we ignore the states wiped out by the papacy insisting it was God's will? Organised Religion is a tool for oppression and control and has nothing to with spirituality

Yes indeed the Crusades is historical and By unbiased Sources I mean those who reported it as it happened, not those who give false accounts to promote hate and anti Catholism.. the Crusades was called by Pope Urban in 1056 to reclaim the Holy Land (Jerusalem) and other Christian territories from the Islamic rule after the Turk's conquered Jerusalem in 637AD.. this was the primary purpose of the Crusades not to kill those who Catholics consider unbelievers but to get back the Holy Land... Other subsequent crusades may have been corrupted but that was not the intention the Church had when the first crusade was called... besides there's been no crusade in over 800 years... It's like saying because God led the Israelites to War and told them to wipe out certain people, the Judaism religion or the Israelites where wrong...

On Religion and Spirituality..
Whether organized or organized has everything to do with Spirituality... Spirituality Is a part of religion whether you like it or not.. You learnt about Jesus through the Christian Religion and believe when I tell you that Early Christianity was organized because they had leaders who they respected and they all believed in the same thing (one Faith) see Ephesians 4...
Let's see what the Bible has to say about Religion

James 1:26-27 If any one thinks he is RELIGIOUS, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain. Pure and undefiled RELIGION in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

1 Tim 2:10 but by good deeds, as befits women who profess RELIGION.

1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our RELIGION:

All these verses and more see RELIGION organized or not as good and the best way to be spiritual...

majour:
Its self explanatory, ur not just seeing it because u choose to be blind to it, they both encourage the killing of unbeliever, those that don't follow their faith, what more do u want

Am curious, can you show me where in the Bible or Catholic catechism where violence is encouraged.. Am sure you will refer to the Crusades as an evidence based on a wrong idea of history but even if you do, show unbiased sources not anti Catholic protestant sources

alaskido:
This is understandable for the Roman Catholic Church to embrace peace with their co-host but not the Pentecostal churches.

The Catholic Church may disagree with Pentecostal churches but there's no violence between them, actually it is the Pentecostals that have issues with the Catholic Church, accusing it of all sorts of issues both true and false as if they have no issues on their own... Point is, there is no Catholic Vs Pentecostal violence hence no need to make peace.

As for the "co-host" statement, only you know what you mean

afemgbosey:
No real Christian will 'hug' a Muslim. I mean it. What fellowship does light have with darkness? To foster peace? Except of course they have thesame source. Isalm and catholism share the star, rosary and moon in their worship. They are both deeply pagan. I know this because I cared to inquire about them. Before you curse me kindly do your research.

Give your life to Jesus not Mary who died or Muhammed whose grave is occupied. Jesus grave is empty. Glory be to God. Amen



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It is pdf file you can download and read on your phone. The truth is unchangeable no matter how hard we try.
Kindly note that this is not a spam.
Nb : I decided to share it on Google Drive
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxNecuydbQxHcEZxOGN0dXdxTlE/view?usp=drivesdk

First of all, I see you are not a patriot, So because we don't share the same religious beliefs we can't Live in Peace? then there is a problem with your reasoning, you are showing religious bigotry in disguise.

You say light and darkness cannot mix while I agree with that statement, it doesn't apply to a Catholic priest showing affection for a fellow human being being a Muslim or vice versa. Unless you're saying Pentecostals and Evangelicals cannot live in Peace with Muslim's, because I live in the North and have seen first hand Pentecostals and evangelicals who have Muslim friends. and live in Peace with one another ... If you think living in peace with Christians alone is what the Bible teaches then you don't know the Bible very well.. Jesus said in Mathew 5:43-48.. Love your enemies and pray for them...
Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live PEACEABLY WITH ALL
Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with ALL MEN, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
there are many other verses we. can look at...
So the fact that they hugged each other as a sign of peace doesn't mean they both serve the devil. it simply means that there is brotherly love between the both of them atleast and it is a model of peace which we should emulate because our God (Christian) is a God of peace..
On Rosary and Moon worship and star Worship, that's just wrong because while Muslims do relate to the Crescent (moon and Star) I have never seen any Catholic Church having a Crescent despite their use of images... On the Rosary, I have never seen a Muslim praying "Glory be to the Father and to the Son and the Holy Spirit. because belief in the Trinity is a blasphemy to their God just like in some "Christian Sect" like the Jehovah's witness, oneness Pentecostals and Mormons. I wonder if you would group them in the same category...

one more note... in places where religious violence have taken place not just in Nigeria but all over the World, the Catholic Church has suffered more.. So I wonder why "darkness" will fight against and disagree with itself.. as Jesus said in Mathew 12:24-27... a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand...

What about other saints?We often hear how Mary can hear our prayers and even answer them. I've had Catholics tell me that other saints can hear prayers as well. Can they also hear prayers in different languages, both thought and spoken, all simultaneously from all over the planet? If they can, why the focus on Mary? Furthermore, all of the so-calledRoman Catholic Saints are creatures. They were created by God who is infinitely greater than they. Why go to Saints and pray to them when Jesus said to seek Him (John 14:14, Matthew 11:28) and that He alone wasthe way to the Father (John 14:6)? Isn't Jesus enough? Isn't God the Trinity enough? Of course God is sufficient . . . unless you take your eyes off of God and put it on your tradition. Then, new doctrines creep inand with it comes a host of errors.

Jesus saved us.. yes... and He is the only way to the Father..yes
Jesus is that and more for every Catholic... we just believe what other passages of scripture say also

Heb 12:22 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, with its thousands of angels. 23 You have come to the joyful gathering of God's first-born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, who is the judge of all people, and to the spirits of good people made perfect.


And we believe that We are all part of the body of Christ like Paul says in Romans 12, 1 Cor 12, Ephesians 4 etc and that there's only one body of Christ not two ( one in heaven and one on earth ) eph 4:4, col 3:15.. Not even death can separate us from the love of Christ and from his body because of his victory over death see 1 cor 15:25-26, 54-56, 2 cor 2:14, Romans 8:35-39.. and because of Christian charity we are asked to pray for each other, see 1 Tim 2:1-3, 2 cor 1:10-11..


SO JUST LIKE IT DOESN'T BOTHER JESUS WHEN I ASK FRIENDS AND FAMILY FOR INTERCESSION SO ALSO IT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM WHEN I ASK MARY AND THE SAINTS FOR THEIR INTERCESSION BECAUSE WE ARE ALL MEMBERS OF HIS BODY AND HE ENCOURAGES US TO LOVE AND PRAY FOR ONE ANOTHER....


WHY IS MARY'S PRAYERS MORE REQUESTED THAN OTHER SAINTS..
1. because no one can have a closer "personal relationship with Jesus than his mother.
2. because we have seen her intercession work in scriptures see John 2
3. Because she heard the word of God and obeyed it and did his will see Luke 1:38.
4. Because he gave his mother to us and his disciples see John 19:26-27 ..
5. because we believe she is in heaven

God is infinitely powerful so 7 billion people on earth can not measure his infinite power, 7 billion no matter how big it may be is a finite number... it is a shame some people limit God's power to 7 billion prayers and think that is all he can do... omniscience means knowing everything infinitely and 7 billion prayers or languages is not infinite so that does compare to God.... so because a person says Mary or the Saints can hear prayers made to them that doesn't take away from God's power because God is infinitely powerful and 7 billion is a finite number... concerning languages... there Is no human language barrier in heaven... here are some Bible verses to ponder over..

Hebrews 12:1 As for us, we have this large crowd of witnesses around us. So then, let us rid ourselves of everything that gets in the way, and of the sin which holds on to us so tightly, and let us run with determination the race that lies before us.

this says we have witnesses who watch us from heaven 1 or 7 billion of us
Luke 15:7 In the same way, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine respectable people who do not need to repent.

it doesn't say just God, but rejoicing in heaven, therefore angels, saints etc will all rejoice so all in heaven take note of repentant sinners

Rev
19:1-4 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a large crowd of people in heaven, saying, “Praise God! Salvation, glory, and power belong to our God! 2 True and just are his judgments! He has condemned the prostitute who was corrupting the earth with her immorality. God has punished her because she killed his servants.” 3 Again they shouted, “Praise God! The smoke from the flames that consume the great city goes up forever and ever!” 4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. They said, “Amen! Praise God!”

from this we know that the crowd of people knew what happened on earth when "Babylon" in rev 18 was destroyed..


rev 6:9-10I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing. 10 They shouted in a loud voice, “Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?”

this tells that the martyrs know that their persecutors are still alive here on earth


Mind you there are not 7 billion Christians let alone Catholics on earth... and even if there are.. it doesn't measure to God's infinite power... unfortunately some Christians limit God's power to 7 billion prayers

solite3:
Mary is special but not more special than any other godly woman. You said Mary is the ark. My friend the ark was not used by God to come down in the bible.
The ark represent the presence of God himself. How does Mary represent God?
The real ark is Christ not Mary.

There is no where in the bible or even in the tradition of the Jews that regards women becoming an eternal virgin an honor to God? Funny! No other women gave birth to Christ can two women give birth to one child before?

You have said it all the purpose of God for Mary was just to bring Jesus into the world no other thing, and after Jesus was brought into the world her purpose was fulfilled right? So God has no other reason to keep her as a virgin all the days of her life. Mary's virginity was just to bring Christ into the world.
It is Christ that matters not Mary her purpose has been fulfilled.

Mary is more special than any other Godly Woman because every other Godly woman didn't carry the Word made flesh in their womb... in fact a Godly woman in Elizabeth recognized that in Luke 1 when she called Mary "Mother of my Lord" and "blessed among women"
Luke 1:42 and said in a loud voice, “You are the most blessed of all women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 Why should this great thing happen to me, that my Lord's mother comes to visit me?


The Ark was not used by God himself to come down indeed you misunderstood me.. but the "presence of God" came down on what is called the mercy seat, which is the images of the two cherubs at the top of the Ark as a cloud.. see Hebrews 9:5

I said the Ark contains three old testament foreshadowing of Christ as clearly seen in Hebrews 9:4
Aaron's rod = High priest.
. Jesus is our high priest ... Hebrews 4:14-16

the manna or bread.. Jesus is the bread of life.. the true manna.. John 6..

The ten words or commandments.. Jesus is the Word or Logos.. John 1

Mary was chosen for a purpose and it is because of that purpose that it is fitting for her to be an eternal virgin... according to the Bible and Jewish tradition... All the vessels used in Worship are consecrated to God and can't be used for any other purposes except what they where made for.
Belshazzar used God's vessels for himself and God punished him self Daniel 5... Other Jews had respect for temple vessels as seen in other Bible verses.. Mary is greater than all temple vessels. If God could consecrate them to himself by virtue of their use... why would God not consecrate Mary by virtue of her virginity in which she brought Christ into the World for his honour Just like he closed the gate in Ezekiel 44...

You are correct no other woman gave birth to Jesus.. that's why no other woman is given her Honor and is consecrated to God as a perpetual virgin and no other Woman is called "full of Grace" by the Angel (Luke 1:28)...

Again it is to God's Glory that Mary is an eternal virgin... but if you think God can't and shouldn't honour himself by making God the Son the only One to Come out of Mary Womb... or doesn't deserve the honour of Closing Mary Womb after his Birth then Goodluck to You

that fact has already been stated already... Mary is special because God used her for the purpose of bringing Jesus into the World and since The Word took flesh in her womb..
To Answer your question....
it would honour God if the vessel he used to become Man was kept just for him...
Imagine the old testament ark which God used to come down among his people, which contained 3 "types" of Jesus (the word, the bread, and the high priest).. that after awhile people started putting their clothes and properties in what used to be the Ark... am sure the old testament people will not dishonor God that way... How much more the true Ark that carried the REAL Jesus..

Remaining a virgin Is to God's Honour because no other Woman gave birth to Jesus Christ

The Catholic Church is the first Christian Church and contrary to what you believe it was not Constantine who gave it that name... Ignatius of Antioch, A student of the Apostle John and third Bishop of Antioch is responsible for the first known use of the Greek word katholikos (καθολικός), meaning "universal", "complete" and "whole"
to describe the church, writing: on his way to Rome to be Martyred in as early as 107 AD (About 50 years after Paul died and about 200 years before Constantine was born) in his letter to the Smyrnaean Church...

The Word CATHOLIC means UNIVERSAL OR ACCORDING to the WHOLE... from the Greek word Kataholikos or Katholikos... Look it Up... see the "real" history... Preferably from unbiased sources like Wikipedia

the Holy Spirit was there in the beginning before the creation...
Gen 1:1 In the beginning, when God created the universe, 2 the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the SPIRIT of God was moving over the water.

Paul doesn't have to mention it every time... what matters is that he did mention it... Jesus himself gave a command to his disciples using that same Godhood
mat 28:19 Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT...

God is infinitely greater than I am.. So if according to the scripture... His Spirit is seen as a person just as the Son is then I believe it

I MEANT EVERY ISREALITE NOT EVERY HUMAN... every human traces theirs to Adam and Eve... Pardon the Error
I know Paul and Jesus didn't get married, was just using that to prove a point that having children is not man's ultimate purpose ....

Concerning Jesus getting his "Son of David" title from Mary... that's unbiblical because according to Mathew his ancestry was traced through Joseph not Mary...
Mat 1: 1This is the list of the ANCESTORS OF JESUS CHRIST, a descendant of David, who was a descendant of Abraham.

2-6 From Abraham to King David, the following ancestors are listed: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and his brothers; then Perez and Zerah (their mother was Tamar), Hezron, Ram, Amminadab, Nahshon, Salmon, Boaz (his mother was Rahab), Obed (his mother was Ruth), Jesse, and King David.

7-11 From David to the time when the people of Israel were taken into exile in Babylon, the following ancestors are listed: David, Solomon (his mother was the woman who had been Uriah's wife), Rehoboam, Abijah, Asa, Jehoshaphat, Jehoram, Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, Amon, Josiah, and Jehoiachin and his brothers.

12-16 From the time after the exile in Babylon to the birth of Jesus, the following ancestors are listed: Jehoiachin, Shealtiel, Zerubbabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Zadok, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, and JOSEPH, who married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was called the Messiah.

It is not wrong for women to have Children.. but not all women married or otherwise have children in their lifetime...
Again Which Purpose is Greater God's Honour by keeping Mary wombs for himself Only or Joseph having children

I MEAN EVEN FOOTBALL CLUBS RETIRE JERSEY NUMBERS FOR GREAT PLAYERS... WHY CAN'T GOD RETIRE MARY'S WOMB FOR HIMSELF.. IS IT SO DIFFICULT

The point is the Holy Spirit is God... Just as your Spirit is you... and He is not the Father... Just like Jesus is not the Father
The Holy Spirit is not the Father because He is Spoken of differently from the Father, from my first reply Jesus says that the Father will send the Comforter (John 14,15 and 16)... He could have just said the Father will send himself
here the Holy Spirit talks of the Father separately from himself among others
Hebrews 3:7-10..Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, when you hear HIS (THE FATHER )
voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that
generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts; they have not known my ways.’"
the Holy Spirit knows all truths (john 16:13) (omniscient) which only God knows... Paul asks a question in Romans 11:33-34 tells us: "O the depth
of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?’"
Paul answers that question again himself in 1 cor 2:11"For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."



Proof texting doesn't help your case, Paul said it, you can go and remove it if you can...

Concerning the "LovePeddler of Babylon", that can also be used to describe Jerusalem, no just ancient Rome... Do proper studies yourself...

A mother doesn't always precede her child that's not always correct.... Look at this scenario
A 30 year old guy whose father is 54 marries a girl of 25... this girl can be called his mother or step mother... but it doesn't mean she precedes him