₦airaland Forum

Mariory:
Of course. However, as previously stated, it is the best form of government there is. Peharps in a perfect world, where we had perfect humans, free from corruption, greed, insanity, or other potentially dangerous human emotions, then idealogies like communisim can work. But you and I know better.

I hope you dont mean that communism necessarily means non-democratic.

Democracy would seem to be the most ideal situation in the present world but I dont believe in democracy absolutely in US terms

TayoD:
@Ibexy,
Where did you get this information from?  As Christians, we believe it is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church that is preventing the full manifestation of the antichrist, and besides we believe the antichrist will be coming from Europe and not the middle East.  So can one take anymore of your claims seriously?

@Easyy,1) A number of countries where the military are based will suffer economically.  Do you know how much of U.S tax dollars are spent to keep up these bases?
2) North Korea will test its next nuclear weapon on the streets of South Korea
3) The U.S. military personnel will have more than ample opportunties to contribute to the economy.  I have colleagues who are serving now in Iraq.  They are engineers whose services we are in dire need of at home.
4) If the military is unproductive as you claim, at least the tax dollars needed to provide them with welfare at home will not be as great as it's taking now abroad. And that means a surplus budget.
5) Perhaps, speaking hpothetically, the outsourcing of cheap labour to China will no longer be necessary since there'll be more than enough hands at home to do the job.  Another economic impact for some other nation.

Someone also said America only goes to countries with oil.  Can you please tell us how much oil reserves is available in Somalia?

The US economy will suffer if all the US military personnel were to return home. Have you even thought about the economic effects of such? The US government will pay more and the treasury will be more depleted for it. The soldiers based abroad also help sell US interests hence expanding the economy.

The US military presence has not deterred N. Korea testing it's nukes. Anyway, why should it not? It wants to free itself from American bullying

How many of those engineers and professionals serving abroad can the already over-stretched economy absorb?

The dollars spent abroad is investment. It helps to grow the American market outside it's shores. That's why franchises like McD's etx are world reknowned. They need to send their own abroad to stimulate growth of their own products and ways of life.

Outsourcing will still be the order of the day. Outsourcing is not a result of the non-availability of manpower but a cost/benefit strategy. If they don't outsource, it wont be long till those companies will be crawling and going bakcrupt.

Afam, you're right. They're trying to employ diversionary tactics

Mariory:
Exactly!

Let the scratching of heads begin in an attempt to answer this question.

I was typing my response when you came with this.

lewa:
Gaby,
Iraqis suffered under the authoritarian Bathist rule of Saddam!The problem in Iraq could have been avoided if Bush instesd if appointing a Viceroy for Iraq and gone on to put in place a national govern ment of Sunnis Shiites and Kurds!Then the crap they are faced now would not have been so!It's only a democracy that can give it's people the best lifestyles possible!
I challenge anyone to name a country where the rights of its citizens, their prosperity, hopes and aspirations are guaranteed in a non democratic system!

lewa,

Not even in the US or in UK are the rights, prosperity, hopes and aspirations of citizens guaranteed.

Ask the family members of the guy shot recently by the police in New York just before his wedding or ask the many Black Brits who have to be a thousand times better than their white counterparts before they are considered to be nearly at par.

Why has everyone assumed that he must be referring to sexual frustrations. I dont see anything alluding to that in his post.

There is a lot of hoopla about China's human rights record but no one ever gets to hear about the human rights records of regimes such as those in Equitorial guinea and Nigeria. Well' those 2 countries have oil and give very easy access to American corporations to explore/exploit.

I dont know how many times this has to be stated for anyone to understand: THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT GEORGE BUSH SHOULD BE TRIED!!!

Haba , it's a simple question. it's not about whether Obasanjo or Tony Blair should be tried. You can start a thread about whether or not OBJ and Tony Blair should be tried and we'll also contribute. However, to say that one should forget George Bush and concentrate on OBJ smirks of something else.

There are dissenting views here and everyone is free to agree or oppose in a reasonable way (at least that's what I believe). We cant be discussing George Bush and someone says 'dont discuss George Bush; discuss OBJ'. If you want to discuss OBJ, start the discussion and everyone who wants to join will do so

jammin:
hear!! hear!! _applauds.
hypocracy at its worst.

HYPOCRISY?

Freewilly:
It's very easy for Nigerian to criticize Bush, American Policies, and the way things are ran In America. Like Texazzpete said, what in the world have you done for Nigeria. It's very easy to point fingers, but can you walk the walk and talk the talk.

It so sickens me when I see so many Nigerian come on here and say all kinds of crap about America, just to find out that it's the same people that send days and nights at the American Embassy trying to get a freaking VISA to the country.

Do you know what a forum is? This is not a single thread forum, it's a forum to discuss a variety of things so it does not necessarily have to be about Nigeria. You should feel free to start a thread about what you have done for Nigeria.

The fact that anyone queues at the American embassy to get an American visa does not mean they should become brainless and lose rational thought systems. Maybe, you're an uncle sam who thinks that because America has saved you from your poverty, you cannot EVER see anything wrong in anything American, that's good for you. It's your prerogative.

layifioren:
Quote Easyy,
"Layifioren, let's put a little more intelligence into this. Are you saying that it is good that everyone everywhere should never fight back in the face of invasion/oppresion by a mightier force?

I don't want to believe you're trying to stste here that people should never fight up and fight what causes if they face a mightier foe. In that case, you are saying that because America is militarily powerful, every nation should just submit to every whim and caprice of George 'war monger' Bush.

Please tell me what should happen if, in some years' time, any silly person ruling a country discovered some very powerful weapon that makes it mightier in military terms than America. Should the whole world just dance to the dictates of the of the silly man?

I am astounded that you are positing a rule by might in the world. Is that the way any civilised human being should reason?"

Did you read what I said very well? What I was saying is that the Coalition force did not just decided to kill Iraqi's; it was a fight like you said and what happens when two opposing teams fight; either of the two will suffer more loss. You need to read and understand and you make it sound as if the innocent people killed were killed intentionally. If I were you, I'll put my energy on the Nigerian government that refuses to take care of issues like Airplane crash that has taken lifes of our love ones who were TOTALLY INNOCENT. You're not arguing to learn, you're arguing to prove that you're right. So what will you gain from it all? I need to reserve my energy for better things so this is my last post on this issue. Enjoy!

What pile of junk!!! How can you say they did not decide to kill Iraqis but they went to fight them in their own country? If they had no intention of killing Iraqis, they'd have stayed back at home.

Again, let's put a little more intelligence to use. This post is about George 'war monger' Bush, NOT about Nigeria. If I want to write about Nigeria, I'll write about Nigeria. You were not coerced into posting on this thread so it's either you see it as relevant or you dont.

I'm not arguing, I'm having a discussion here and putting my points across. If you cant take opposition, go and gather imbeciles and brainwash them

Johnny:
All said and done, and in as much as we are all entitled to our own opinion, the problem (not war) in Iraq is justifiable as long as Saddam was removed and democracy instituted in the country. The removal of Saddam was good news to Iraqis and all lovers of democracy worldwide. The death of the innocent civilians which we so much talk about is being brought about by fugutives, Islamic fanatics, suicide bombers and oppressors of the lesser beings. Of course, I can never fault these casualties on the American - led troope. At least watching CNN and listening to other international media houses like BBC and VOA, I have never seen a scene where the coalition forces was shooting at the helpless Iraqis as we are being made to believe here. No! The people are killing themselves. The continual stay of the troop in Iraq is to protect the poor, the weak, women and children who have become victims of the immoral and inhumane act of Saddam's loyalists. Cannibalism, you may say.
My final post on this topic.

I agree that every sane human being would be happy to see Saddam go.

I however think your humanity is questionable if you say that killing several thousands of innocent people (including women and children) is enough justification for the removal of Saddam.

Do you honestly think Soldiers will shoot at civilians when they see the media around?
Anyway, there was one I saw where the pilot 'took out' a group of fleeing Iraqis. It was on Channel 4 for a whole week and America waved it aside.

Which people are killing themselves? Why were they not killing themselves before the arrival of American soldiers. If American soldiers invade, Iran tomorrow, you'll see the same thing happening there and you'll say they're killing themselves.

The continued stay of the troop does nothing to ameliorate the sufferings of the people neither has it prevented people being killed in scores on a daily basis. They have created a mess and they do create a mess in every nation they go to.

Afam, Thanks for that piece of information

Buchio, what real human rights records does America have except that of ensuring that the middle class white majority is respected while the black people can be trodden upon. The fact that you have never been subjected to inhuman treatment is not to say it does not exist. Is this not the same America which castigated a journalist for publishing the atrocities of it's soldiers in Iraq?

what we get to hear are the negative things about Nations which are not particularly friendly to America.

You mentioned bullying by China. China has not done a hundredth of the bullying that America does to the rest of the world

Na George Bush dey try export DEMONSTRATION OF CRAZE!

texazzpete:
Hating Americans can be soooo lucrative for some,

Get a grip. Where is ther hatred of Americans here? I have American relatives and I'm sure many here are same. If you dont know how to put things properly, please refrain from using wrong sentences.

This is about George 'war monger' Bush's war crimes and NOT about Americans!

texazzpete:
and i still maintain, isn't it hypocrisy to agitate for the trial of George Bush for his 'war mongering' while failing to call for Obasanjo's trial for the Odi massacres and numerous atrocities committed by naija soldiers in ECOMOG?
Heck, have any of you even called for the trial of the police IG for the killings oF nigerians by 'accidental discharge'?
Hating Americans can be soooo lucrative for some,

Let's put some intelligence into use here. This thread is about George 'war monger' Bush not about OBJ. I'm sure there are several threads about Obasanjo here otherwise feel free to start one. Besides, Obasanjo has not been responsible for a thousandth of the number of deaths that George 'war monger' Bush has been responsible for all over the world.

4Play, I see the news regularly. I also happen to know a few Iraqis who are better positioned than you to tell me what is actually on ground.

I appreciate your other point BUT no one is saying that the overthrow of Saddam is a bad thing. What we are saying is that George 'war monger' Bush lied his way to war. Of course, the presence of foreign troops is now required to keep the murderous situation slightly controlled, not that it is controlled at the moment.

If, however, the US never invaded Iraq, there would be no need for any American presence there. People wont be dying daily the way they are being killed now. The situation was not this way when the Iraq police was there on it's own without American and allied presence.

mamaput:
Is it only him.
His father drinks too.
Even his daughters drink.They even take it upon themselves to travel to a state were drinking is allowed at their age( well when they were younger they were even seen in Mexico drunk)

It is not impossible to be a genetically insane family

IBEXY:
I don't think Dictatorship is the only other alternative left if one refuses AMERICAN version of Democracy.
There are several rich, stable nations not practicing George Bush' version of democracy

God bless you

Seun:
Where is the [b]better [/b]alternative? Where is the country that is thriving under dictatorship and military rule?

China

Drogba is a fantastic footballer and striker. However, if he actually said this, we need to watch him and make sure he has not been eating and drinking with George Bush. That kind of statement comes from people like George Bush.

A man who drinks so much and seems to be drunk more often than he is sober has to have somthing seriously wrong with him.

Seun:
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried. Churchill

Tell me any nation outside of Europe and America which has enjoyed economic prosperity as a result of the present form of democracy?

The issue is with it's present form where America seems to want to force you to practice democracy as it dictates. Democracy, in it's pure form, is without doubt the best form of Government to be desired. However, the present way in which America bullies nations to practice democracy according to it's dictates STINKS!

4play, thanks for the civil response.

How many Iraqis do you think will have the guts to say openly to a foreign official that they are not happy with their presence? I'd rather take spontaneous reactions such as happens when an american is killed.

I have spoken with quite a few Iraqis and the general idea I get is that the whole country has been decimated by the invaders. There seems to be a consensus that these infrastures were widely available before the American led invasion. The fact that you said Baghdad had more electricity before the invasion is enough to say that there is less electricity. If the capital which is the nerve centre is devoid of electricity, of what use is it in villages with no resources and industry?

Iraqis went to vote because they had no choice. They went to vote for peace; but do they have the peace now? They had hoped there country would at least be restored to it's former state with a new government. They know better now. Tell any people anywhere that there are elections and they'll vote. It's a natural thing and it is NOT and indication that they accept the American decimation of their land.

Was America invited to help remove Saddam Hussein? Did America invade Iraq just to remove Saddam? NO. America invaded under false claims of WMD!

Did America have to bastardise and destroy every standing institution in Iraq? NO. Why did they destroy every insitution in Iraq? Personally, I think it's part of Bush's agenda to ensure that America controls everything in Iraq thereby gaining a foothold in the middle east before entending it influence further.

Does democracy the way it is defined really suit every nation and culture?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against democracy. I just see it not working in it's present form when introduced in several Nations. Perhaps, there is need to examine the fact that Nations have different cultures and ways of life which make it difficult for the kind of democracy many seek to practice to actually work.

I attended a conference recently and we struggled to find any Nation which has recently embraced democracy with positive impacts on the lives of the ordinary people.

My belief is that America and the west should stop rushing Nations into their own form of democracy, especially when the proper grounds have not been laid for such a form of government. Cultures differ, so do beliefs and practices.

Does democracy in it's present form as drummed into our brains really make life better for EVERY nation?

4play,

There's no disputing the fact that Sadman Hussein was a crazy leader and that his leadership was despicable. However, is that enough justification for the dehumanisation of Iraqis by America?

Now Now, dont tell me about subjective polls.

Do you ever see the reacton of Iraqi people whenever there has been an American casualty? That tells me more than the doctored subjective polls.

If you say that people are dying at the hands of fellow Iraqis, how can you say with the same breadth that the people are happy with the American decimation of their entire nation? Even when Saddam was leader, they had electricity, they had functional hospitals, they went shopping without getting bombed, they had running water, they had jobs, Now all of those things have been taken away, are you so callous as to say that their lives are better?

Yes, Saddam was evil BUT what has now been foistered on Iraqis is anarchy.

Please dont mention democracy, who wants democracy when you cant walk about? who wants a democracy that sets out to destroy your way of life? who wants a democracy that allows suicide bombers to have a field day? who wants a democracy that gives you leaders who are imposed by foreigners?

Layifioren, let's put a little more intelligence into this. Are you saying that it is good that everyone everywhere should never fight back in the face of invasion/oppresion by a mightier force?

I dont want to believe you're trying to stste here that people should never fight up and fight what causes if they face a mightier foe. In that case, you are saying that because America is militarily powerful, every nation should just submit to every whim and caprice of George 'war monger' Bush.

Please tell me what should happen if, in some years' time, any silly person ruling a country discovered some very powerful weapon that makes it mightier in military terms than America. Should the whole world just dance to the dictates of the of the silly man?

I am astounded that you are positing a rule by might in the world. Is that the way any civilised human being should reason?

Africa is generally seen as a land of hunger and associated with everything bad. It is not uncommon for parallels to be drawn between any bad thing and Africa.

We dont help matters when we discard our own culture and way of life to be like Europeans and Americans. They see the fact that we want to be like them and we copy their culture so they cannot but conclude that our culture and way of life is undesirable.

We want to dress like them, act like them, dance like them etc. Many of us even talk like their illiterates and gangsters.

I do know that many of them admire our own culture and way of life but this is not openly spoken about.

Layifioren,

Are you then saying that because some people live in poverty, their lives deserve to be made even more miserable?

Are you going to justify the atrocities committed by US invaders by saying that Saddam was a bad leader?

Would you be happy if America had invaded Nigeria during the Abacha era and destroyed every infrastructure, killing and maiming several thousands of people in the process?

iice link=topic=19349.msg655491#msg655491 date=july 31:
And the way she dresses actually depicts what her brain is all about? Ahahahahah funny aye!
As they say, don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Do we not engage our brains in everything we do?