₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
@ Enigma, Altheia,

Maybe I should just ask you this; At what point does a man get saved.

I will answer you this way: try and grapple for a while with what apostle Paul was saying in 1 Cor 1:18ff

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NKJV

I know that the KJV simply uses "saved" but see the following link for a proper sense of the passage: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#vrsn/18

Joagbaje:
A man is saved when he confess the lordship of Jesus over his life by faith . . . .  It is an instantaneous experience.

Na so! That's why Jesus said in Matthew 7

21[b]"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven[/b], but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Joagbaje:
Look at the three thousands that got saved on Pentecost day. It was instant.

While I am trying to be sympathetic to your point I think you need to better work it through. Thus, can you point to a passage that says the salvation of the 3000 was indeed instant? Acts 2 doesn't say so.

Joagbaje:
Some of you meant well, but if you don't understand the message of Paul , you will have the gospel messed up. Your theology will be upside down.

Understading The doctrine of salvation is the major problem here. I'm sure will shall have harmony on several issues if we fine-tune this soteriology issue.

Just go and sit down. Your own theology is "pick and choose" i.e. pick and choose what appeals to your flesh. Is it not the same Paul that you said was wrong for not supporting stealing by fleecing the flock?

Deal with what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 7 as I quoted two posts or so above.

Isolating verse 20 from the Matthew 7 above

20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

We know the teachings of Jesus, his focus on the poor, his own very simple and non-material lifestyle and his fruit which includes endless giving --- of his own life and, after his resurrection, of the Holy Spirit. We know the fruit of the Holy Spirit including specifically temperance.

When we see some fathead GO/Papa/Pastor flying private jets with congregation's money, that would not seem to be the good fruit of which Jesus speaks; it is not also showing the Holy Spirit fruit of temperance. It is the fruit of mammon. Thus, if 'by their fruit you shall know them', we can ask if such a GO/Papa/Pastor is "saved" or justified by faith in the first place.

Remember Jesus said that just saying Lord Lord is not enough ---  but doing the Father's will. Let a person of intelligence, good conscience and a renewed mind tell us that buying a private jet when a vast portion of your congregation is poor is "doing the Father's will".

When the doctrine of a so-called "Pastor" (here I specifically have in mind the jerry curled charlatan)  is such that his mug followers go and steal large sums of money and do 419 and then bring the money to his "church" and he says he has no duty to return the stolen/419 money even as a "Christian" let alone as a "pastor" ------ then the fruit of the "pastor" is not the fruit of Jesus or the Holy Spirit but the fruit of mammon.

Remember Jesus said that just saying Lord Lord is not enough ---  but doing the Father's will. Let a person of intelligence, good conscience and a renewed mind tell us that stealing and 419 and supporting stealing/419 by not returning stolen/419 money is "doing the Father's will".

Matthew 7

18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21[b]"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven[/b].

22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Let those here boasting (being deluded anyway) --- "I cast out demons", "I perform miracles", "Pastor Chris performs miracles" read verse 22 above and seriously beware.

Let all of us who do indeed believe in justification by faith beware.

On topic, the example used by Jesus of a good tree bearing good fruit and a bad tree bearing bad fruit shows that the apostle James was right that if a person's good works are nowhere to be seen, we cannot really say that person has been justified by faith in the first place!

And where in the Bible did Jesus or anyone else say or suggest that "your lips must move"?

Honestly, this Joagbaje has very serious problems!

Now Paul is wrong because he chose to work (including menial jobs) rather than fleece the flock like the modern day charlatans including Oyaks and the fool in a suit (oyedepo) pictured smiling in his private jet that his mumu followers paid for!

Don't be surprised if Joagbaje soon says that God was wrong in the Ten commandments to say Thou shall not steal and Thou shall not covet etc ---- since those go against the avarice of thieves fleecing the flock that Joagbaje supports

@ topic

For the church to be repositioned (speaking of Nigeria specifically), the first thing would be to destroy the prosperity "gospel". However, this is not likely to happen because of the extent of greed and materialistic desire prevalent in our urban societies/communities especially.

In the past the church was seen as a place to go in order to take one's mind off the things of the world and to contemplate higher values. Today, the "church" is where to go to look for things of the world and to place one's mind deep in the gutter/sewer/soakaway ----------- especially if the "church" is "pastored" by the likes of Joagbaje.

Contrast Joagbaje's post with the words of Jesus Himself!

Matthew 6:5-8

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

"Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

Just because some of Joagbaje's writing pisses me off so much:

As I said above if there is something good to gain or some apparent profit, Joagbaje will support the person ---- he will even support the James that he is villifying here if James can be used/twisted to support his greed or delusion. See both Joagbaje's duplicity and delusional folly in full flow on the thread in following link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-393635.0.html

Here he quotes James for support: 

Joagbaje:
I didnt want to derail the thread because It is a little controversial. But the truth is that God didnt create evil as far as I know. It is not everything a prophet say that is consistent with truth.

James 1:17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. . . .

And again . . .

Joagbaje:
My sister, God is not author of evil .I know quite well the erronous doctrine you have believed ,but its not consistent with Gods nature. I have greater light than Isaiah, God is love.

James 1:17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

God is not behind pestilence and famine.The devil is.

Now to his delusions:

Joagbaje:
Thanks , Actually from my study of Gods word, it is very evident that men prophesy according to their measure of faith. Isaiah was not correct here ,

Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. . . .

(From one of the posts above citing James for support) 

Joagbaje:
. . . I have greater light than Isaiah . . .

(It seems he also meant Isaiah here; it doesn't matter though as he has deliberately and specifically said same of Elijah, Moses and others elsewhere)

Joagbaje:
I have the life of Christ in me which Elijah never had.

Joagbaje:
The newest convert today in Christ is more than all the prophets put together. . . .

The idea that a person who says these kind of things is a pastor is rather daft! Even dafter however is that some people are following him and looking up to him!

Lord'a'mercy!

Meanwhile, listen to the James that the ignorant Pasiiitor Joagbaje claims was advocating Judaism/the Jewish law:

James 2:10

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Does that sound like a man advocating the law; a man who knows no one can keep all the law and therefore is saying everyone trying to keep the law is guilty of all ----- because everyone will most probably offend in one point?

Now, to see a microcosm of James' point that the recalcitrant like Joagbaje and the deceiver (like his boss) would refuse to see:

James 2:21

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

On the face of it it seems James is saying Abraham was justified by works! However . . .

James 2:22

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ah, I thought this James was talking about works, why is he now bringing faith into it? So it wasn't works afterall since works was an accessory that only served to make faith perfect?  Maybe we should still follow him a bit more . . .

James 2:23

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

But people are always quoting this verse to say that justification by faith is also even in the Old Testament? Yeah, I know; and I bet you thought it was written by Paul. Shame on you; it was written by the same James that they are accusing of preaching salvation by works!

But didn't James also say in v. 24 that

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yes he did; but do you think he is nullifying what he said before or contradicting himself? OK, let me show you the conclusion of his synthesis part of which synthesis is what you find in that verse 24. Hear him one more time . . .

James 2:18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You now see what James is trying to communicate now: if we do not see your works, how can we know that you have faith? For me on the other hand you can look at my works to see my faith.

In fact, if you bear in mind the words of Jesus himself you can put in proper context what James was saying.

I can't help but throw one last dig at the Joagbajes of this world. They can not abide James because their doctrine is such that it makes them ultimately carnal and with no real intention to follow the teachings of Jesus. Their doctrine makes Christianity worthwhile only as long as they have something to gain e.g. the delusions of prosperity, of "divine health" and ultimately the delusion that they are not sinners. When James says show me your faith by your works --- how can Joagbaje observe that teaching when Joagabaje says his heroes (like the admitted homosexuals Ted haggard and Roberts Liardon) are greater than Elijah, than Moses, than Abraham, than Isaiah etc? How can they be interested in "works"? Why will they not turn against James whose words haunt them to convict them?

Another point to note is in relation to an argument that some scholars have made in terms that when Paul said salvation is by faith/grace and not "works", he actually meant "works" in a sort of narrower sense i.e. works of the law. Thus we distinguish this from works in the sense of "good deeds" which Paul encouraged of course and the doing of which is what James said evidenced salvation by faith/grace. Again, in this sense, there would be no conflict between Paul and James.

Paul is saying you are not saved by works of the law (things like "tithing", circumcision, ablutions, animal sacrifice etc); rather you are saved by faith/grace --- BUT make sure that you do good "works" in terms of good deeds, love, charity etc. James was saying: show me that you are saved by faith/grace by your "works" in terms of good deeds, love, charity etc.

It is of course very easy to see how Paul's emphasis on a lack of necessity to follow the traditional Jewish observances (if the approach of works as "works of the law" is right) would readily appeal to Gentiles who would not need to go through the traditional Jewish rites in order to be admitted into the new faith.

DBR:
Do as thou will. I rest this matter.

This is what you should have said/done in the first place instead of poisoning Christian doctrine with falsehood and even fraud (though maybe not your own personal fraud).

Christians (I cannot speak for prosperity "gospel" people and "tithemongers and fraudsters) know that the Levitical priesthood has been abolished and with it "tithing" has been abolished.

Hebrews 7:5

And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham

Hebrews 7:18, 19

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Now Deuteronomy 14 continues in verse 24

24“Now when the Lord  your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the tithe. 25If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the money in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen. 26When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household. 27And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.

(NLT)

God commanded

1. Sell the "tithe"
2. Use the "tithe" money to buy any kind of food you want
3. YOU and your household should feast on the food that you buy with the tithe money
4. Share this feast with Levites (another time, also widows, orphans, strangers etc)


Can a tither of today do the above instead of taking "tithes" into "church"?

The scammers will not win in the long run! Yes, at the moment the tithe fraudsters are still fooling many people (for a lot of reasons including the mugs' own greed, aspiration, desire, misguidedness etc). Nevertheless, inroad is being made into the tithe fraud and more and more people are now looking again and asking questions.

We who are challenging the tithe fraudsters should be ready for the long game.

Here is the challenge that has been dodged all the way through this thread; according to the passage below, why can the "tither" not eat/enjoy/jollify with the tithe himself instead of taking it into "church"?

Deuteronomy 14:22, 23

"You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. "And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

EDIT for emphasis: the passage says "You shall eat the tithe!

Jesus IS

Jesus is eternal!

Yet He calls Himself the Son of God? Yet God calls Him Son?

Jesus Christ of no beginning, no end, no descent

Jesus is described as a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek of who himself it was said:

Hebrews 7:3

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Thus it stated in Hebrews 7:24, 25

But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

In fact Jesus just IS

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

OK: now on the "eternality" of Jesus i.e. Jesus is eternal. Jesus exist[b]S[/b] outside time!

Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:18

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:24

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

John 16:28

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

@OP

Funny, God too is looking for you; in fact, he is knocking right now! You only need to open the door for Him!

Hear what He says:

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:20.

Let me add my well done for Image123 - esp as we be just dey pull am on another thread.

Ok agreed. All scripture is given by inspiration for learning etc.

So just go and do likewise and remember to do it quickly! lol

Pasiitor Joagbaje, again see your life outside!

As a pastor do you get paid or not?

Hmmm

All Scripture is given for inspiration, eh? OK then here are some scriptures.

Matthew 27:5

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself

Luke 10:37

Go and do likewise

John 13:27

"What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him

OK It's an old joke but some will get the drift.

Joagbaje:
Ofcourse Jesus wasn't talking to The church but at least he didn't condemn tithe but rather encouraged it. But that's not my favourites scripture anyway. Maybe you're refering to ttonye.
Tithing was primary source of welfare for priests in the OT. The preaching of the gospel of christ has replaced the levitical priesthood.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

OK then, so I say the below to you:


Grace and free will giving of the gospel of Christ has replaced "tithing" of the Levitical priesthood.

Meanwhile, 'see your life outside' on this link:  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-502743.32.html#msg6635762

Joagbaje:
drrobert,
Work of ministry is for those who are called into it. You don't work in ministry for sake of pay . . . .

That mindset already makes you the wrong candidate.

Pasiitor Joagbajeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On another thread you threw the scripture below at us when we debunked "tithing"; here you are now saying "workers" in church should not do it for pay! https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-497709.96.html#msg6635609

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Do you see why we accuse you "pastors" of hypocrisy, double-standards and brain-washing of your flock?

@Image23

By your own post, you show your folly!

See this:

Enigma:
. . .
The truth is that when Jesus said do not call any man father he had the scribes and the Pharisees in particular view but Jesus was talking to His own disciples and followers (the multitude). So Jesus' followers are not to call any earthly person "father"; I think it is clear that this excludes biological/parental father. . . .

^^^ Absolutely fine by me.

And I had given this quote below before all of that:

When we say that the Son is begotten of the Father, we do not refer to an event in the remote past, but to an eternal and timeless relation between the Persons of the Godhead.

Shouldn't that tell you that your understanding of the word "begotten" is not the same as ours and therefore perhaps you should seek a proper understanding and appreciation of what we mean by "begotten" ---- especially when we emphasise His "begottenness" in our creeds by saying

begotten not made

?

Oh, I m not trying to rebut your points and I do not need to. What I am pointing to you is that you are criticising and being condescending to Christian doctrine without really understanding it. If you must challenge/criticise something, the mark of the intellectual is that he at least understands the thing fully or sufficiently.

EDIT

Deep Sight:
. . .
And you should also be aware that given your explanation of your use of the words "shallow" and "ignorant" - everybody will be entitled to view everybody else as shallow and ignorant - once they have different views.

And perhaps everybody can say to everybody else that they have not read and understood a particular topic?

@ Deep Sight

Firstly in response to your concern about my use of 'shallow/ignorant': if you are able to observe that a person has not read or understood an issue, don't be surprised if they say your understanding of the issue is shallow --- and that is why you do not appreciate their own perspective.

Secondly, the rest of your post indicates that I was right on some of the work that you still have to do: please go and read up on the uses in English language Bibles of "only son" or "only child" on the one hand and "only begotten son" on the other.

Deep Sight:
. . .
PS: I hope you are aware that the adherents of the Grail Message - from which M_Nwankwo's views are sourced, also believe that the writer of the Grail Message, Mr. Abd Ru Shin - is the earthly incarnation of a being called Parsifal - who they believe is the Holy Spirit himself and part of the Trinity. Perhaps you are also willing to swallow that?

I know very much of m_nwankwo's adherence to the Grail Message and very much knew that when I made the post you allude to. Ta very muchly.

@Deep Sight

I have been trying to be reasonably polite and as such I have not really let you know my full thinking on some of the things you write.

I will give you some indication, still mild, this time. When you say things like:

Deep Sight:
. . . The etymology of the word monogenes applied to Jesus also kills your analogy DEAD. You have not read or understood the etymology.

I'm afraid you display gross ignorance and shallowness. It is evident and even worsened when your basis for such conclusion is Wikipedia. Just use your loaf better for once! Do you think that if Christians hadn't thought through the meaning of the word "begotten", they would have then used it in the creeds --- especially the Nicene creed

Your attempt to explain "monogenes" is so shallow that it is laughable. I'll give you a clue; go back to your Wikipedia and read up the entry on "consubstantiality" and then take up your research on "monogenes/begotten" from there. In fact, I'll give you a little further help: (a) ask yourself why many other Bible translations say "only son" in John 3:16 and elsewhere (not using the word "begotten"; clue -- it has to do with potential translations of your "monogenes"; (b) learn to use a concordance (very simple task) and check all the renderings of "monogenes" in the Bible.

If afterwards you want the proper Christian perspective, I may be interested enough to help.

On your point about the sun etc  it is enough for me to say (a) it is an analogy and (b) read the words in bracket (c) make of the entire analogy what you will.