₦airaland Forum

(a) Using Deut. 14:22-26 as the champion verse for spending tithe money on wine OR strong drink misses the point. If anyone wants to spend his/her tithe money of either of those (or anything else on the list in those verses) - it's entirely up to them: God will let them know by experience what He feels about that.

God TOLD them to do it!!! That is clear, straightforward and undeniable. If the implication is that God will somehow punish those who do it, then why did God Himself tell them to do it?

If there is no implication that God will punish them, then what is the problem if they spend tithe money on wine or strong drink?


The rest of the last post is either irrelevant or only tangentially relevant to the point in issue ---- for this reason. If God says spend your tithe money on wine or strong drink and you do what God Himself said, how does that show lack of fear of God?


PS by the way, you can drink a strong drink without getting drunk; e.g. a small shot of whisky or ogogoro or fortified wine such as sherry .

4get_me

Your pointing a finger at me does not make me "vex" or even raise an eyebrow. I simply suggest you debate the issues rather than make assumptions about someone else's background, knowledge or experience.

In case my question was not clear: why do individual tihers (I am not referring to their church/assembly/congregation) - the individual - not take their tithe (here we mean the tenth) and share it with orphans, widows, strangers or spend some of the money on whatsoever their hearts desire as commanded in Deuteronomy 14.

If you equate "tithe" with "giving" (see e.g. II Corinthians 9:6ff) which is what me and TV01 and Hndholder and others advocate, perhaps this discussion is ended then?

Thus to repeat TV01's question: is "tithing" the same thing as "giving"?

If not, then why do individual tithers not share the tithe with widows, orphans, strangers and why should they not sometimes spend it on whatever their hearts desire?

4get_me

You should concentrate on debating issues rather than pointing fingers. As it is you made so many assumptions: "have not experienced the power etc of tithing", "haven't taken time to study verses carefully", "don't know what goes on in many tithing churches". You could not be more wrong on all of those!!!

It is precisely because I have been there n done that and have discovered the truth of what the Bible says on this issue that I maintain the stand that I do ---- i.e. that the modern teaching of "tithing" is a lie (whether deliberate or indeliberate).

Deal with the passage: why do "tithers" not give the tithes to or share with widows, orphans, strangers or spend the money on whatever their hearts desire as directed in Deut. 14:22 ff. BTW you will also find similar directions in Leviticus among other places. Are those portions of the Bible irrelevant?

There is even no record that Jacob ever gave the tithe that he promised. There is no record that he gave tithes at any other time.

If those who claim that "tithing" is for today say that they are following what the Bible says, then why don't they also follow waht the Bible says that they should share the tithes with orphans, widows, strangers and that sometimes they should spend the tithe money on whatever their own hearts desire including strong drink? Why is that part of the Bible (Deut 14:22ff.) not being followed --- especially as it relates to tithes?

OK 4-getme

Sorry if I misconstrued you in any way.

This fact remains, however: God said His people could spend tithe money on wine OR strong drink.

Again: Wine OR strong drink!

Does it mean that those now saying a Christian should never consume alcohol know better than God?

A Nazarite is different from a Nazarene --- they are not the same thing.

God said His people could spend "tithe money" on strong drink.

These two are undeniable facts.

Finally, it is illogical to say that the permission to drink strong wine was only for Jews/Israelites (and thus does not apply to Christians today) while the requirement of "tithing" was not only for Israelites/Jews but still applicable to Christians today ---- when both are n the same verse/passage! On what basis is that verse/passage (i.e. Deut. 14:22-29) bing split in that way?

Question for 4get_me in particular: what do you say about this commandment (below in different Bible versions) of God Himself?


Deuteronomy 14:26

KJV

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


NKJV

And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household


NLT

When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want--an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the LORD your God and celebrate with your household.


NASB

You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


RSV

and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

So you admit and confess that you are taught NOT to follow the teachings of Christ!

You see why knowledgeable Christians avoid the prosperity "gospel" like the plague?

You forgot that Christ actually specifically taught His followers that some of the things in Deuteronomy were not correct. "You have heard it said , but I (i.e. Christ) tell you , "; or Moses allowed some things because of 'your hardness of heart' "but I (Christ) tell you , "

In any event, the abuse/misuse of passages like Deut. 8:18 (and soon you'll also be [mis]quoting III John 2 as well) is one of the unfortunate things brought about by the vomit of satan known as the prosperity "gospel'/message.

Papa

It is obvious that you read/interprete the Bible in the same juvenile way as you argue; and it also seems that any effort to take you through proper biblical exegesis on this forum will be wasted. Perhaps one day your eyes will be opened to the true gospel of Christ and the true Christian message; then you will run a mile from the prosperity message, I assure you.

In the meantime, I simply repeat my assertion that the prosperity message/"gospel" is a vomit of satan and knowledgeable Christians will steer clear of it.

Actually, for whatever it is worth, here are a few links from which you might learn a thing or two:

http://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/full_article.cfm?articleid=3258

http://www.arcapologetics.org/veritas/veritas-2003-11.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/prosperity-gospel.html

http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=565

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar63.htm

Kimba

If you look again, you will notice that I used "non-Christians" in deliberate quotes in my last post partly because of your point. In any event, the Bible does not say anyone is going to hell simply because s/he is not a "Christian" the way many people define that term.


PS What exactlt is "hell" anyway?

Non Christians going to heaven? No way!
It may annoy or shock you but it's the bitter truth.
Gospel truth as well

.

Nonsense! You will not find one place in the Bible where it says all "non-Christians" are going to hell.

You may want to read and study Romans chapters 1-5 (that is 5 chapters not verses!); you may also search where Jesus said "I have other flock , " (can't look up the full reference presently).

Even when He said "I am the Way , no one comes to the Father except by me" ---- that can also apply to "non-Chrstians" as well. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

who is more qualified to teach the prosperity message other than somebody who has experienced wealth himself

But the CHRISTIAN message is NOT the "prosperity message". Again, the prosperity message/gospel is a vomit of satan that has nothing to do with Christianity. Hence Christian leaders do not need to preach the prosperity message/gospel; thus, it does not matter whether a Christian preacher (note NOT a prosperity preacher) is rich or poor.

The greatest Christian preacher - well more than that really because He was God incarnate - Jesus Christ was not rich on this earth. And He DID NOT preach a prosperity message/gospel! And don't believe the lies of prosperity preachers that say Jesus was rich.

His chosen foundations of the Church and of the Christian faith (e.g. James, Peter, Paul, John, Stephen etc etc etc) were not rich. And none of them preached the prosperity message/gospel!

Rather, Jesus and these apostles preached the Christian gospel. Knowledgeable Christians stay away from the deceit and chicanery of the prosperity message/gospel.

The prosperity "gospel" (which is no gospel at all) is a sad sad vomit of satan that many people across the world are swallowing, unfortunately¬

Markenny:
I need mtn email setting can someone help me

Send sms with the word SETTINGS (in capitals) to 3888

[quote author=drag_on link=topic=9469.msg280950#msg280950 date=1144613214]sorry i haven't been around, i've been busy. anyway i like an answer to this: After considerable research i have to say that the "tongues" in scripture mean languages to me and that is not what i hear when i pass by many churches it sounds more like the repitition of 3 or more syllabuses. peter and the other apostles definitely spoke in "languages" that others understood to be thiers. acts 2.,1 cor14:21-22. Even if it is an unknown tongue (like spanish is to me) it can still be deected as a language.Secondly paul states categorically that not everybody gets this gift. 1 cor 12: 8-13,28-30. paul also said speaking in tongues(lets say that it what occurs in your churches) should be private not done when you congregate.1 cor 14: 23-30. Generaly i still have to say what i hear on T.V. and see other do is not a language whether known or unknown tongue and it is good (speaking in tongues) but not available to all. i mean i could speak in tongues (the way u guys do it ) if i wanted to. what i hear is crap.[/quote]and you are correct; totally correct.

Excellent topic and excellent contributions; the motivational speaking is just a part of the sad "prosperity gospel" thing (God wants you to be rich and all that foolishness).

There is one passage, among a myriad others, that warns against this kind of thing. It is given below in the NLT just to make it clear.


Colossians 2:8 Don't let anyone lead you astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world, and not from Christ.

If you are using Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Motorola or Siemens:

Look at the bottom of the page in the link below:


http://www.mtnonline.com/vas/sightzandsoundz.asp


At the bottom of that page you will see links to the above manufacturers: all you have to do is go to the link for your phone's manufacturer; fill in your phone model, the country where you are, your network (i.e. v-mobile, mtn etc) and your phone number (in the international format i.e. +2348021234567) and in a matter of minutes they will send the settings and your phone will be ready for wap and mms. Only e-mail is not currently supported.


Edit and Correction PLEASE NOTE: before downloading the settings from manufacturer's site you need to get some 'activation' from operator first; therefore you have to send SMS: SETTINGS to 3888 (MTN); or wap nokia 6100  to 184 (V-mobile; obviously you use your own phone model); for Glo, better call customer care.

welborn:
Born again is not a state of mind: it is a divine reality of receiving the gift of new life - divine life - by the power of the Spirit. The Bible was not describing a state of mind in John 1:12 - God gave repentant sinners (like me ) the power to become the sons of God.

FANTASTIC!!!

This is what people do not realise. The Bible says born NOT of the will of man but of the Spirit of God. Some Christians are in the habit of saying others are not "born again" when in the first place they themselves do not even understand what the Bible says about "born again". Some people think it is all about their "decision" especially if they answer an "altar call". They think anyone who has not followed that mode or who does not believe like they do cannot be born again ---- they display a gargantuan and sad ignorance!

donnie:
I agree, those who know what they are saying do not use many words.

They say tiithe was paid in kind (produce and animals) ; what they fail to undersatnd is that these (produce and animals) were currency then.

Nonsense ----- is that why the Bible said people who wanted to pay money instead of their tithes should add an extra 2.5% in money? Is that why in Deuteronomy 14, people were told to turn their tithes into money if the tithes were too heavy?

And who says mint, dill cummin, oranges, bananas, pepper, grapes, goats, lamb, ewe etc etc etc were "currency" in Israel at this or any time?

dancon

If your post was directed at me, my response would simply be this: you are better off taking up issues with the pastor that is misleading people with false prophecy.

People like me know the Bible too well to be scared by "not speak evil of man of God" or "heaven and hell is real".

Remember that even of pastors etc, the Bible says that some of them will ask "Lord, did we not prophesy in your name , " If you do not know this passage then find it, read it, think about it and meditate on it.

baby bee


I started the thread.

I am ashamed of the pastor who made this blatantly manipulative and false prophecy. I am also ashamed and very very sorry for people who beleive that kind of nonsense.

"300 miles for Stephanie" - chap who did a 'marathon' race as a kind of vow hoping that his sick daughter will not die.

"Venom" - nasty horror about a boy who was wrongly given a poisonous snake instead of the harmless pet snake he wanted.

"Two faces of evil" - nasty hammer house of horror film about identical twins one of whom was an 'ogre' kind of thing and the wife of the other didn't know which of them she was actually living with.

"Assault on Precinct 13" (1976 original) - fantastic original gangster movie; gangs attacking a way out police station that was about to close with only one officer, two female secretaries and two prisoners to defend it.

Some movie involving Billy Dee Williams (can't remember the name) etc etc etc

gospelman

First, do the simple exercise of reading Deuteronomy 14:22-31; if having read it you still deny that God said tithes should be given to the poor i.e. widows, orphans, strangers etc then let me know.

Gospelman

You are soooooooooooo wrong. God did say specifically in many places that you should indeed give part of the tithe to the poor, the orphan, widow and aliens/foreigners.

One example has been posted in other places on this forum. it just shows that we should study the Bible carefully and desist from making pronouncements that are not accurate.

One clue: the example that has been given before can be found in Deuteronomy 14:22-31. That could not be more clear cut on what to do with the tithe --- even more clear-cut than Malachi 3.

Quote from: IAH on September 01, 2005, 06:29 PM
Hehe, that reminds me of my CRS(Christian Religious Studies) Teacher in High School. She likes "sepe"ing. After teaching us about Jesus and his disciples, she will say "oloriburuku niwo omo to n je chewing gum nibeyen, Olosi!" She was like 37 years old and still "Miss". Who will marry sepesepe? Shocked

o mi gosh Grin Grin..i can't stop laughing..hahahahahaha..iah..nice one..

wats wit teachers and sepeing?

Won ni aa ba fi e j'oba shugbon o ti le sh'epe ju. O ni ah ko ni da fun enikeni t'o ba ni m'o ti le sh'epe ju.

(They say we want to make you king but you curse too much. You reply woe betide anyone who says I curse too much, they will never prosper)


Won ni k'olokunrun she 'to' k'o san; o ni 'emi ko le ma she to to to o jare'

They told the sick person to say the word 'to' and he will be well; he replies: 'i don't have time to ba saying any to to to!'

Everyone agrees that it is right to "give to God/Christ". The question is how do you give to God/Christ?

Interestingly Jesus Christ gave us the clearest way of how to give to Him and, guess what, He did not say that you give to Him by "paying" tithes! Do you know what He said instead?

He said: as long as you feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner you are giving to Him.

If people think they are giving to God/Christ by "tithing", why don't they follow this direction about tithing from Deuteronomy which agrees with how Jesus Christ said people can give to Him?

Deuteronomy 14:28

28 "At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.


I have never heard one of the tithe preachers especially the prosperity preachers use this passage to say that members should go and share their tithes with widiows, orphans etc instead of bringing it to church. Most of the people who take it to church also do not think that it is better to share with widows and orphans instead of taking to the pastor. In the case of those people it is because their mind is wrong - they see "paying" tithe to church as some kind of magic that will bring blessing because of this misunderstanding of Malachi 3. Whereas Christ has provided the clearest and most beneficial way for them to be blessed --- by blessing the most needy in society.

Christ said: "As long as you do it for the least of these, you do it for ME." In order words as long as you give to the poor, orphans, widows etc you are giving to Christ. Notice that He never said, "as long as you 'pay' your tithes to church/pastor, you are giving to me"!


Meanwhile what about the part of Deuteronomy which says that a person should spend his tithe on whatsoever his own heart desires? Do you hear any of these prosperity preachers tell the congregation; ah, for once why don't you spend the tithe on yourself instead of bringing it to church - as it says in Deuteronomy 14:22-26 (follow link to right verses)

donnie

I did not expect any better (than throwing abuse) from your type. It is the fruit of your type of "christianity" evidently.

One day the Almighty God will open your eyes.

Hey I'm enjoying this thread. Ijebuman I used to listen to your Live365 station; in fact I got a few emails from you being on your mailing list. I might ask you some questions in PM about a few joints that I'm looking for or trying to work out artiste etc. I also used to dj a few house parties; now slowed down though.

A few joints that I remember (hopefully not repeating anything mentioned so far) without thinking too much

Kashif - Baby Don't break your baby's heart, Condition of the heart, Lover come turn me on

Brothers Johnson - Light up the night, Stomp, This had to be

Cameo - Freaky Dancing

Projection - Love Struck

Gino Soccio - Hold Tight

Lillo Thomas - Downtown, Sexy Girl

Stacy Lattisaw - Spotlight

Glenn Jones - At Last, The Romance is not over, Stay with me tonight

Strafe - Set it off

Kid n Play - Last Night

Howard Johnson - So Fine

Troop - Mamacita

Kwick - You're the kind of girl that I like

Andy Gibb - Shadow Dancing

Atlantic Starr - Always

Heatwave - Always and forever

Midnight Star - Curious, etc etc etc etc etc etc

Dynasty - Check it out, etc etc etc etc etc etc

Central Line - You've said enough, Walking into sunshine, Nature Boy

Michael McDonald - I keep forgetting, Sweet freedom

Malcolm Mclaren - Buffalo Gals

Starpoint - Bring your sweet loving bac, Wanting you, etc etc etc etc etc


I'll come with some more later if my co-geriatrics are still interested in reminiscing.


Keep funking!

Whether the pastor meant 49 crashes per day in Nigeria or in the world, the statement is still a lie and the prophecy is nonsense. You can actually see the pastor's prophecies for each of the last three years or so at the rccg website. It is the same pattern - generalisations and guesswork. For one year that the pastor declared that his flock were going to be blessed when some of them pointed out to him that they did not receive what was promised, he said maybe it was because they were not living holy and other yada yada. Yeah right, it is easy to blame the poor followers - it is their fault and not that the prophecy was 'oje' in the first place.

The same thing like some that would say that a person is not healed or did not receive a miracle (or did not "keep" a supposed miracle) because he did not have faith or because he had sin etc in his life. All of these are deception tactics.

Christianity is supposed to be simple but these false prophets just complicate things and put quite a lot of intelligent people off.

By the way, I speak as one who is and will always be a Christian.