₦airaland Forum

GOD does miracles every day. Most televangelists who claim to perform miracles are liars and deceivers.

Even Jesus said it that when some ask "did we not do miracles in your name?" He will tell them to get lost because they were evil doers.

Leave the man of God alone or leave yourself open to experience God's wrath

Only those who do not know the Bible will fear "God's wrath" in a situation like this. Those of us who are following what the Bible says do not have to and do not fear God's wrath. The Bible says to test every spirit; the Bible says there will be false prophets and false prophecies.

We therefore have a right to test this prophecy; to test the spirit behind it; and if we discern it to be false to say so without any fear. I personally conclude that the statement of the pastor that there were supposed to be 49 crashes is false. I further conclude that the whole annual prophecy thing is unreliable, false and to be rejected. I do not care that the prophecy was given by a "big name man of god".

And people like me know the Bible better than to be threatened by "leave the man of god alone" or "touch not mine anointed".

Here is the link for the 2006 prophecy in which this statement was made


Pastor E A Adeboye Annual Prophecy for 2006


Interestingly, there was no prophecy of a single one of the plane crashes before they occurred.

Plane Crashes For 49 Days

The plan of the enemy was, that there was to be a crash per day for 49 days, and you prayed and God intervened.

The statement above was made by one "man of God" whilst giving his annual prophecies for 2006. He said there would have been a plane crash in Nigeria per day for 49 days last year but for the prayers of members of his church. Meanwhile the man did not even foresee or prophesy a single one of the crashes last year --- only now in hindsight ........

How does anyone with intelligence believe this kind of nonsensical statement

(PS Happy new year to all)

I would like to show that apart from the adultery or non-believer spouse deserting cases, there can be other grounds for divorce that are biblical. One particular example is cruelty.

I know that some people will say no no no, it's not in the Bible --- but my reply to them is that they do not even know what is in the Bible they so much bash other people with. I can bet that hardly any of these people are aware of this passage below in respect of divorce.

Exodus 21:10-11

10 If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. 11 And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money.


In this passage, if a person took a slave girl for a wife and does not give her food, clothing and sex she was free to basically divorce him. How much more so if a person does not give these things to a wife who was not even a slave in the first place.

Even the passages on adultery that people are relying upon are not as simple to interpret as some people are portraying here. People need to study these things much much much more deeply before just jumping to uninformed conclusions.

Furthermore, if you read the letters of Paul (especially Corinthians) very carefully and properly, you will actually be surprised to find that he allowed for re-marriage after divorce.

Finally, assuming even that divorce and/or re-marriage are sins, are they sins that God will not forgive if the concerned person goes to Him openly and honestly and confess his/her situation?

Below are statements by four highly placed and highly read Christians, that I personally respect, making statements that non-Christians can go to heaven. Of these four, Billy Graham is probably the most well known evangelist in the world in the past few decades and it can be argued that as far as can be seen no one living presently has done more than him (publicly) to "win souls for Christ". The others are all respected by millions of Christians worldwide; I even included a Nigerian because of the audience of this forum.

I think if people like these can say it is possible for non-Christians to go to heaven, people who argue otherwise should think twice and take time to think about other possibilities.




1. Robert Schuller & Billy Graham Interview (Sorry I can’t find a link for the interview on its own without misguided negative comments)



Reported by The Christian News October 20, 1997

"Schuller: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

Graham: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious, of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ...I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for his name whether they come from the Muslim world, or Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and they're going to be with us in heaven."

Schuller: What, what I hear you saying, that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

Graham: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Schuller: I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There a widness in God's mercy.

Graham: There is. There definately is"



2. Archbishop of Canterbury says Non-Christians Can Go to Heaven



3. Pope says Non Christians Can Go to Heaven



4. Cardinal Arinze says it is possible to get to heaven without accepting Jesus.

During a group discussion of religious leaders from around the world, held at the Thanksgiving World Assembly in Dallas, Texas, in March of 1999, Cardinal Francis Arinze, President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, is quoted as follows:

"(A document from the Second Vatican Council) says that God's grant of salvation includes not only Christians, but Jews, Muslims, Hindus and people of good will. That is, a person can be saved, can attain salvation, but on condition that the person is open to God's action. ..." ...

Robert Ashley, news director at Dallas radio station KHVN-AM, asked Cardinal Arinze: "So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?"

Cardinal Arinze answered: "Expressly, yes (he laughs with the audience)."

Source: 'If God himself gave freedom', article © March 20, 1999, by Brooks Egerton, staff writer of The Dallas Morning News, third edition, page 1G.




PS apologies: now edited to fix codes for links!

Lawyer/law lecturer

Well said. In addition most people who say that only "christians" will go to heaven or "non-christians" will not go to heaven simply do not know the Bible well; some have not even studied the Bible at all; maybe some have listened to a misguided preacher or 'wo/man of God' who him/herself has a poor understanding of the Bible.

Those saying "non-christians" will not go to heaven should go and do a simple study of John 10:16 and Romans chapters 1-5 (or if too lazy read only Romans chapter 2). And then try to square that with what they are saying. By the way, this is a rather simple assignment; there are far more complex exegetical exercises and Bible passages on these questions that some people are just giving opinions without study/knowledge.

Even the nature of Christ, His words, His purpose and His actions go against all these saying that all "non-christians" are not going to heaven nonsense.

[Quote]
can a non christian go to heaven[/quote]YES


Romans chapters 1-5

John 10:16

and many more from the Bible

can a non christian go to heaven

YES


Romans chapters 1-5

John 10:16

and many more from the Bible

... one needs no pastor or prophet to tell you these have direct/understandable meanings and nothing should be attached to it.

So does the passage below have a direct/understandable meaning and should anything be added to it; and what does the passage mean, what does it tell us for today?



Deuteronomy 14:23-29 (NLT)

"Bring this tithe to the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored, and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to fear the Lord your God.

Now the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored might be a long way from your home.
If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds and take the money to the place the Lord your God chooses. When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want-an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.
And do not forget the Levites in your community, for they have no inheritance as you do.

At the end of every third year bring the tithe of all your crops and store it in the nearest town.
Give it to the Levites, who have no inheritance among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work."

Deuteronomy 14:23-29 (NLT)

"Bring this tithe to the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored, and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to fear the Lord your God.

Now the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored might be a long way from your home.
If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds and take the money to the place the Lord your God chooses. When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want-an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.
And do not forget the Levites in your community, for they have no inheritance as you do.

At the end of every third year bring the tithe of all your crops and store it in the nearest town.
Give it to the Levites, who have no inheritance among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work."

Did the apostle Peter collect "tithes" from anyone? Did Paul? Did James? Did John? Did Stephen?

Who in the New Testament collected "tithes " from anyone? Do you know that the apostle Paul even once worked as a tent maker to support himself? Why did he not collect "tithes" instead.

Regarding the man who said he saw a vision and he had an uncompleted building because he did not "pay tithes", the thing is so unscriptural in too many respects it is almost not worth responding to. But for the purpose of education, from the time of Jesus' death through the apostolic era until much later when Christianity was institutionalised officially (hundreds of years) no one was required to pay "tithes" as a Christian obligation; it was simply not a doctrine of the Christian church. The idea of "tithes" was revived when the State and the Church became entangled. Do you then think that all the saints/christians who did not pay tithes in that period but some of who suffered great persecution will get a worse deal in God's kingdom than "tithe payers"? Is there anywhere in the Bible that suggests that kind of thing?

@ goodguy

The answer to your question is extremely simple.

The summary is this: the Bible is against drunkenness but does not make a general prohibition of drinking alcohol.

But to give further details: for some people it is better whether for spiritual reasons or otherwise not to drink alcohol at all. For instance, some specific people were told not to drink alcohol at all. But apart from those few specific people, the Bible does not prohibit others from drinking alcohol in any circumstances, it simply warns against drunkenness.

Jesus Christ Himself drank alcohol, which is why some people abused Him as a "wine-bibber"; if what He drank was not alcoholic, the accusers would not have been able to make the abuse. Secondly, the wine that they drank at supper, including the last supper was alcoholic wine; this is demonstrated by the fact that some Corinthian Christians got drunk on wine for what we now call "Holy Communion" (Read 1 Corinthians 11 and see where some got drunk on the wine used for commemorating the last supper). In his letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), the apostle Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for his stomach. In other places, the Bible simply said that elders, pastors etc should be people "not given to much wine". So you will not find a place in the Bible where it says everyone or every christian, if you like should never drink alcohol. The rules are man-made.

Yes, agreed some people should not take alcohol at all because it is not good for them spiritually (e.g. some leaders) or otherwise (e.g. people who have a disposition to alcoholism). Even for others who are moderate, there should be times when they will desist for a particular reason: e.g. fasting, devotion etc or in order to help another person ("not to make a brother stumble" who may be disposed to alcoholism and to set an example. All of that is fine. The thing not to do is to claim what the Bible does not say. And the Bible does not say everyone must not drink alcohol.

And by the way does Bill Gates pay "tithes"? Or Richard Branson?

Oh Seun

None of the above, the son of nobody.

Seriously, none of the preachers listed has much respect in my eyes in terms of accurate Bible teaching. Unfortunately, Nigeria has succumbed to the sad aberration that is the "prosperity gospel" and virtually everyone in the list propagates it. This is not to say that some of them have not made useful contributions in other respects; just that as "pastors" (biblically speaking, which really are supposed to be pastor-teachers if you read Ephesians 4 and elsewhere in the Bible carefully), the people in the list do not cut it for me.

Concerning drinking alcohol, consider the Bible passage where God told the Israelites to spend their tithe money on whatever their heart desired including alcohol!


Deuteronomy 14: 26

When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want--an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the LORD your God and celebrate with your household.

(NLT)

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

(KJV)


Note the double-whammy: 1. God told the people to spend the tithe money on themselves --- not to give it to some pastor; 2. God told the people to spend tithe money to buy alcohol among other things.

None of the above.

Is it not necessary to define what people mean by "born-again" before saying Catholics are not born again?

Questions for thought:

1. Do you make yourself born again?

2. Is it your own action that makes you born again?

3. Is it God's work to make you born again?

4. What is the process of being born again?

5. What is the minimum thing (the most basic thing) necessary to be born again?


I daresay that most people saying someone or the other (whether Catholic or otherwise) is not born again do not really know the meaning of "born again".

Is this a good example of how to use money that people pay into church "for God's work"? Is the purpose of giving/paying "tithes and offering" to enable the head honcho to live large?


[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1814723,00.html]Pastor to Repay £200,000 after Buying Florida Timeshare on Church Visa Card[/url]

UK Commission Inquiry Report

These kind of junkets may have some use for some people but I consider them a waste of time and an avenue for people like Hinn to pump up their ego and sometimes to make money.

One miracle at this particular Hinn thing in Nigeria was useless as the chap concerned died about a week after the crusade unfortunately!

Christians/people will do better approaching God straight, personally/privately or pray ith a group of true loving friends instead of running after these "miracle" peddlars.

Happy Ramadan (I hope that is the appropriate greeting)!

Churches are supposed to turn people's mind to focussing on God which means two things: (1) Love God with your heart and mind and (2) Love your neighbour as yourself.

The focus on "miracles" by some people is actually far from the focus of the Church as a corporate body whether in Nigeria or globally. These "miracle" people used to be a minuscule minority; even now they are still a minority when things are put in perspective. The only problem is that although they are in the minority they are the loudest and they are the most visible. They are also fast growing in that they are most likely to attract innocent but needy and misguided folk on the one hand as well as greedy folk who should really know better on the other hand.

In truth, many members of the Church (i.e. the one true universal) Church are doubtful whether at least some of these so-called "miracle workers" are really members of the Church. In fact Jesus Himself said not all those who supposedly did "miracles" in His name will He recognise.

The problem here is that some people tend to be erroneously dogmatic. Unfortunately, in this case, it is some of those who support modern tithing.

One thing myself and Hndholder (as far as I can see) have maintained is that : we do not have a problem if an individual chooses to tithe; it is their personal choice. We also do not say they are missing any "blessings" from God even though we say the modern tithing teaching is biblically wrong. I think in holding that line, we have been fair and charitable enough. Our essential point is that if you seek to interpret the Bible accurately and in true Christian spirit, the conclusion is that tithing is, firstly, not compulsory and, secondly, not even necessary for a Christian. Again, I repeat we respect anyone's freedom to choose to do it.

If only similar respect can be shown by some of those who support the modern tithing and not casting aspersions that people may not be "born again" or "do not have the Spirit ..." etc

One particularly thing of interest to me is that none of the people who support the modern tithing teaching has been able to address the passage in Deuteronomy 14:22-28. Again it is quoted below for anyone who support modern tithing to harmonise with what is being taught today.

22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24[b] But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
28 “At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do[/b].

(NKJV)

To donnie

I doubt if you you are born again. If you are, you definitely have not recieved of His holy spirit.

Now you are God --- deciding who is "born again" and who is not

Your kind may not be convinced , even if Jesus appeared. I am only bringing some illuminaiton your way.

Without meaning to be rude, it is my opinion that you are in darkness on many basic Christian doctrines at the moment unfortunately. Maybe in the future, as you mature in the faith and study more, you will come to the truth and stop peddling vain philosophies and doctrines of men. If this sounds rude, I'm sorry I don't intend to be; it's just the way I see your present condition.

By the way, did you attempt to study and honestly interprete the passage cited to you previously (quoted below): Or is the reason you cast aspersions on people's salvation because you are unable to handle the truth of Scripture?

Deuteronomy 14:22-28

22 ¶ Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.


24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

If you want the passage in another translation/it can be provided.

Revelation increases. Besides you should understand that they were just beginning to understand God's ways. That was a baby church. He was sent to the gentiles who were not familiar with the law or the abrahamic covenant. So he needed to apppeal to them and sometimes plead with thm. He even had to take a job as a tent maker to catter for his own needs. But was this the best for the congregation.

So you and today's teachers of the false tithes doctrine know better ("have a greater revelation" than the Apostle Paul who is credited with writing two-thirds or so of the New Testament

Because the false teaching does not agree with Paul's teachings and actions, it must be Paul who was wrong? It must be Paul who had "inadequate revelation"

If your doctrine does not agree with that of the author of about two-thirds of the New Testament, shouldn't that tell you that something is wrong with your doctrine


Even if you do not mean Paul, but the people he was preaching to does it not occur to you that it is rather arrogant to assme you know better than the people who were much closer to the time that Jesus lived and when the church was being built? When the foundations of the eternal church was being laid? People who were more familiar than you could be with the cultural and Christian practices of that era? If tithing was so important to the foundations or the life of that church you think Peter, Paul, James, John, Phillip, Timothy or any other of the apostles or earliest Christians would not have taught it? How come they were all silent on it. (And the passage in Hebrews is not telling anyone to tithe but explaining how the new covenant is superior to the old!)

There is actually another way to interpret the passage where Jesus said "I am the way .... no one comes to the Father except through Me." In fact many knowledgeable and spritual people (including Billy Graham and the current Archbishop of Canterbury) have either expressed this other view or made statements that seem to go along with it.

The interpretation is this: it does not mean that only the people that are "Christians" on this earth will reach the Father "through" Christ. Even "non-Christians" can make it "through" Christ and it is up to Him to decide who should make it to the Father "through" Him. We do not know and we cannot know what will happen to everyone else. What we can say as Christians is that according to our faith we have an assurance that Christ has opened the door for us. We Christians should get out of the arrogant attitude of condemning people of different faiths to "hell" presumptuously!

It is a very good m-industry er, sorry ministry! But I like to also apply for post of deputy treasurer.

Yes indeed, Jacob first insisted that God should bless him; he said if he got the blessing then he would tithe. The Bible does not even tell us whether he eventually kept that promise or paid any tithes at all. In the case of Abraham, there is only one incident (Genesis 14) and even then Abraham did not give tithes from his own goods, instead it was from other people's property that he seized from a war. There is no other mention of him ever giving tithes.

Someone said you "pay" tithes and not give it; they haven't studied the Bible on the subject; if they do they will see that tithing was originally confined to farm products and cattle. There was even a penalty for anyone who wanted to give it in money in that they had to pay an extra 2.5% or so if they wanted to do so. The only other time that God said the people could turn the tithe (cattle/farm product) into money, He said that they themselves (the tithers) should spend the money on whatsoever their heart desired including "strong drink". I still challenge these proponents of tithing to read and interpret Deuteronomy 14:22-28

To make it easy, here is a link to it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu014.html#22

I wait to hear if any tithe preacher/teacher has ever told the congreation that sometimes they can go and spend the "tithe" on whatever their heart desires or that they should go and share it with poor and needy people.

If you want hymns specifically, then try www.cyberhymnal.org

Henry Nwosu ---- just wish he was born a few years later so that he might have been able to showcase his incredible talent on the global stage.