₦airaland Forum

Tinking guy

Have you ever been able to watch eTV at all in the past on your receiver? Secondly, what satellite is your dish currently pointing to? What size of dish is it and is it motorised/using a jack?

The answers to these questions will help to know how to advise you.



lekinxyn

The crucial thing at the moment is that you have a 90cm dish; the next crucial thing is to know where you are: are you in Nigeria -- North or South?

If in Nigeria, a 90cm dish can be made to point to only a few satellites e.g. Eutelsat W4 at 36E --- but that is useless unless you want to subscribe to DSTV; it can also point to Intelsat 7-10 at 68.5E; on that you should get some free channels, mostly religious channels; for the general entertainment channels you will need to subscribe to MyTV; however, you might be able to get eTV if your receiver has the right software and code.

I think a 90cm dish can also be made to point to NSS7 at 22W --- I don't know that Sat very well -- but I think the most interesting things on it will probably require you to subscribe to Canal Sat.

In sub-Saharan Africa, we are not as "lucky" with free satellite TV as people in other parts of the World. In the UK, with a 90cm dish, I can get several thousand free TV stations; in Egypt and North Africa you can do the same with maybe a 1.8m dish; a 1.8m dish might be useful in Nigeria but to really begin to fully get the benefits, you are talking of a dish from 2.4m upwards!

Purist

If you want me to bother to respond to your posts, the first thing you will have to do is to observe basic courtesies and keep out personal comments. In any event, I have no time for "yeahs?" and "and sos?" If you don't understand the import of what I wrote that you responded to with such, especially in the mode and tone used, I have no interest to explain them to you.

If there is an honest seeker or a serious and polite debater, I am ready to explain anything I said in detail.

cgift

I want to give you a few pointers to think about in relation to what you posted.

1. You said "pay" tithes ---- do you notice that Jesus did not say "pay" tithes? Why? Addendum, though question not edited from my original. In that version the passage is in fact rendered as Jesus saying "you pay, "; my apology: However the question I intended was that "pay" in the context did not refer to "money".

2. Rather he said to the Pharisees: "you tithe of mint and anise and cummin , "; what do you understand by mint or anise or cummin? What is their relationship or comparison to money?

3. Do you know that the Pharisees were not disciples of Jesus ==== but rather people who hated Him and were opposed to Him?

4. Do you ever see, hear or read of Jesus telling any of His own disciples or followers to tithe --- let alone to "pay tithes"?

5. Will you be willing to consider that when read in proper context that verse is really saying to the Pharisees: 'you say you observe the law because you tithe of mint, anise and cummin! Yeye/nonsense, is that all there is in the law; are you not supposed to observe the most important aspects of that law and not just tithing of mint, anise and cummin?

6. Do you know that on many occasions Jesus deliberately broke "the law" --- in the process causing apoplexy for the same Pharisees?

7. Do you know that Jesus specifically taught that "the law" was inadequate or imperfect but that some aspects of it was given to the people just because of their own condition?


I wanted to keep this to just questions but I will make one comment: Matthew 23:23 does not reflect Jesus commanding His believers/followers to tithe, let alone to "pay" tithes; rather it reflects Jesus telling His enemies who were under the law to make sure they were even observing that law properly. Finally, don't just believe me or any other opponent of the modern "tithing"; take your time to read up again in context and study the Bible in more detail on the subject of tithing;

You are unlikely to be able to watch DSTV for free; you want DSTV, you pay for it.  But if you want genuinely free TV (FTA), I think the most likely Satellites on which you will find them for your area will be the Intelsat birds at 68.5 East and 72 East.

Familiarise your self with the site in the link below and you might be able to work out which Satellites can be received in Zambia.

www.lyngsat.com

Thanks TV01

Incredible interpretations and mixes-up ---- as I've ever seen; and I've seen all manners of strange arguments before!

I've actually been lying low and occasionally popping in to read and see you and some others arguing for truth and faithful biblical interpretation rather than all kinds of man-made false doctrines.

If we are able to make a few people stop and look at the Bible passages again; we would have done our bit and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit to lead people to truth.

God bless too, bro.

Just to say that I seem to be locked out of the thread on "The essence of Tithing" and can't post on it. So if it looks like I am avoiding the thread that is not the case and I am quite happy to continuing probing the false teaching of "tithing" on that thread --- if and when it is unlocked.

I do not care in the least whether or not you think I'm a gentleman. I do not care in the least whether or not you think I'm honest. I do not care in the least anything you think about me. Indeed you might have noticed that I have consistently ignored all the snide or otherwise personal remarks you have been making - as well as other irrelevances.

I will continue to pursue my contributions to this thread in the way I choose; it is your prerogative how you pursue your contributions. In any event, I have dealt with your questions through my questions and those with good comprehension would have seen the answers clearly in my questions.

If I ask a question and you do not wish to answer it, that is entirely fine by me; the question will be there in public for followers of the thread to consider. It will serve as something to think about whenever again they hear the prevailing modern false teaching on "tithing".


Question repeated (you may choose what you like to do with it):


Are modern tithers today allowed to personally eat (or otherwise) personally keep and use their tithes and, if not, why not - considering what Deut. 14:23 says as quoted below?


"And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

You may say that

the NKJV, ESV, NASB, RSV - and even the Amplified all got it wrong on that verse.

I and many people know that they were right to translate the word in the original, rendered "bestow" by the KJV, as "spend" or "use to buy". We also know that even in using "bestow" the compilers of the KJV meant "spend" or "use to buy". We also know that the original Hebrew word in the context of the passage meant to "spend" or "use to buy".

I am going to repeat my question: the reason I'm doing that is simple; the viewpoints on the meaning of "bestow" in that context (yours and mine) have been put on these pages. Let the readers go and think about it and come to their own conclusions - whatever the conclusions might be. So I've got lots more questions for those who preach/teach "tithing" for today's Christians --- and so here is one of them below.

Question:

Are modern tithers today allowed to personally eat (or otherwise) personally keep and use their tithes and, if not, why not - considering what Deut. 14:23 says as quoted below?


"And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

Again I will answer the question with more questions:

Did all the translators/compilers of the Bible not know the differences between the different Hebrew words? Why did they choose to translate the Hebrew word translated by the KJV as "bestow" as "spend" or "use to buy"?

Edited

BTW
Repeated Question:

Are modern tithers today allowed to personally eat (or otherwise) personally keep and use their tithes and, if not, why not - considering what Deut. 14:23 says as quoted below?


"And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

The only answer I will give you to that question is with a question:

Do you know better than all the Bible compilers/translators who rendered "bestow" as being equal to "spend" or "use to buy" - even granted that people do have preferred versions/translations? Again I quote the translations below from BLB with some added occasional emphases.


Deut. 14:26
KJV
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

NKJV "And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

NLT - When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want-an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.

NIV - Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.

ESV - “and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

NASB - "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

RSV - and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

ASV - and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household.

Young - and thou hast given the money for any thing which thy soul desireth, for oxen, and for sheep, and for wine, and for strong drink, and for any thing which thy soul asketh, and thou hast eaten there before Jehovah thy God, and thou hast rejoiced, thou and thy house.

Darby - and thou shalt give the money for whatever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thy house.

Webster - And thou shalt bestow that money for whatever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thy household.

HNV - and you shall bestow the money for whatever your soul desires, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul asks of you; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.


Question repeated:

Are modern tithers today allowed to personally eat (or otherwise) personally keep and use their tithes and, if not, why not - considering what Deut. 14:23 says as quoted below?


"And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

Some basic principles of interpretation:

1. A word has a basic meaning; nevertheless the full meaning of a word is realised from its context.

Example the word "cleave"; those who don't already know might check its meanings and realise that it has two completely opposite meanings; thus, to know which meaning is intended you look at the context.

Same principle applies to "bestow"; any unprejudiced person who reads the word in the context that it is used will realise that in that particular context it means "spend" or "use to buy" ---- which is why several Bible translations translate accordingly. This applies even to the word used in the original text --- it is to be read in context in the original and even in that context it meant "spend" or "use to buy" or equivalent.

2. A word's meaning also depends on the syntactic pattern it evinces: e.g. "bestow" will have a different meaning from "bestow upon"; both "bestow" and "bestow upon" have different meanings from "bestow for".

Again anyone reading carefully and without prejudice can see that in the context of "bestow money for wine etc", the meaning is "spend money to buy wine etc"


Very very simple ----- to those willing to read out of the Bible rather than into it.


Question (repeated from my last post):

Are modern tithers today allowed to personally eat (or otherwise) personally keep and use their tithes and, if not, why not - considering what Deut. 14:23 says as quoted below?


"And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

Questions of where the "tithers" spent their converted tithe money and from whom they bought oxen, sheep, alcohol etc are so simple they were never worth bothering about. I'm only going to deal with them for readers to compare the simplicity of interpretation of the relevant passage to convoluted contortions. I will deal with it by making a contemporary comparison with Nigeria.

Here goes:

We have Nigerians living in 36 different states: God says to them - I want you all to go to a place I shall name and have a big feast there: take tithes of crop to the place; but if the place is far, instead of taking tithes sell it; note that: sell the tithes!!! Therefore instead of taking tithes --- take money. When you get to the place I choose spend the money on sheep, wine or whatever you like. Later, God tells them that the place where He wants them to go is Lagos. The Nigerian travelling from Maiduguri realises that it is easier to take money to Lagos than to carry "tithes". He sells the tithes; takes the money to Lagos; when he gets to Lagos, he buys his sheep, oxen, wine etc; he then goes to the temple where he enjoys a good party in the name of the Lord with fellow Nigerians.

Simple points:

1. The person "bestowed" i.e. spent his converted tithe money in Lagos.

2. He did not "bestow" or spend it by giving it to some pastor.

3. The person himself enjoyed what he bought with the tithe money and shared it with the less privileged

4. The person himself chose what to buy with the money.

5. A careful observer would also have noticed that "tithes" was not even money at all but simply crops, grain and, in some circumstances, livestock!


Question:

Are modern tithers today allowed to personally eat (or otherwise) personally keep and use their tithes and, if not, why not - considering what Deut. 14:23 says as quoted below?


"And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

So, basically again, it boils down to the fact you have no clear, direct answers to the questions: OK, again to keep it simple, let's make it just one question; I'll give you some background.


In Deuteronomy 14 that we are looking at:


The thing to "bestow" is money ----- read it carefufuly; it did not say to "bestow" tithes! What was to be "bestowed" was money.

Here is the passage: Deuteronomy 14:26

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth


So just one question to keep things simple:


How would the tither "bestow" that money for wine or similar drink, sheep, oxen etc?

OK: here is the passage in slightly more detail from the NKJV; read it carefully and read my following questions carefully, then come back after re-thinking your "laying it up" and "bestow".

"But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you,

"then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.

"And you shall spend [or if you like "bestow"] that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.


Here goes:

1. If they exchange the tithe for money before they even start the journey, how can they then lay the tithes up at your so-called "designated place?

2. They were to take the money in their hand to your so-called "designated place"; were they supposed to lay the money up anywhere --- whether designated place or not?

3. If they were to lay the money up, what was the procedure by which they then "bestowed" the money for oxen, wine, sheep or whatever their hearts desired?

4. Would the process of "bestowing" money for oxen, sheep, wine etc have involved "buying"? Otherwise, how did they acquire the sheep, oxen, wine etc that they "bestowed" the money for?

You still need to deal clearly with a simple point:


Can the tither "bestow" the conversion money for wine or similar drink, oxen or sheep or whatever his heart desired ---- which are expressly stated in the passage?


(Note i even changed "to buy" to "for" to make it simple for you)


If the tither can "bestow" the conversion money for wine, oxen or whatever his heart desired, would he first give the conversion money to the priest; or will he himself personally "bestow" the money?

Whoever is doing the "bestowing" ---- where and when will they do the "bestowing" of money for oxen, wine, sheep or whatever the heart of the tither desired?

1. The meaning of "bestow" in the context is simply "spend", "use to buy"; again, no need for contortions. You only need to resort to contortions if you are not willing to confront the truth and straightforward meaning of the verse.


2. The comparison with Jesus driving out the money changers, to put it mildly to be kind to you, is grossly out of place. The money changers were not tithers; the place where they were changing money was not the same place as your so-called "designated place" or "store-house"; the money changers had not gone for a feast as in Deut 14 or as in the Shiloh example.

3. If you insist on interpreting "bestow" in your way then deal with this question: can the tither "bestow" the conversion money to buy wine or similar drink, oxen or sheep ---- which are expressly stated in the passage?

In answering, bear in mind the clear wording of Deut. 14:26 -

KJV - Deu 14:26 - And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

So, basically you cannot accept what Deuteronomy says clearly and without ambiguity; therefore you must use your own personal interpretation of the Bible?


In that case, anything you say on tithing is not worth a lot ---- since it is based on your personal idiosyncracy rather than upon a proper interpretation of what the Bible says clearly and unambiguously: i.e. as far as the tithe in Deuteronomy 14 is concerned the tither was at liberty to spend the conversion money on whatever his heart desired.

The contortions with "bestow" are pointless.

You hark on about my use of the word "instead" in my very first post on this thread; well you simply do not grasp the irony in that post and simply have not been able to deduct from composite that I do not believe that any form of tithing (whether the one in Malachi, Deuteronomy, Leviticus or elsewhere for that matter) apply to Christians. They have not applied, doctrinally, since at least 2000 years ago and, arguably, even well before! (Only misguided or fraudulent folk have sought to put its bondage on Christians --- and only from several years after the Apostolic era).

I deliberately adopted the approach of asking you questions ---- because I knew from beginning that you could not sustain any argument for tithing today from the Bible; you must resort to personal idiosyncracies and preconceptions and personal interpretations --- and that is exactly what you have done.

Otherwise, how on earth can "spend the money on whatever your heart desires" mean anything other than "spend the money on whatever your heart desires"?

Still keeping things simple, I will confine this current post to one issue only:

1. The distinction that you make between "spend" and "bestow" seems not to be known by translators/compilers of several Bible versions who see that passage as meaning to spend the conversion money. Even those who use "bestow" acknowledged that it was to be "bestowed" for whatever the tither's heart desired.

Do you not see that you are reading into "the Word" what is not there? If you think not, you will have to do much better than you have done so far (a) to show that "bestow" is different from "spend", and (b) that the tither could not "bestow" or "spend" the third year tithe for whatever his heart desired.

You also need to address, whether the tither can "spend" or "bestow" the conversion money to buy wine or similar drink, oxen or sheep ---- which are expressly stated in the passage.


See examples of the renditions of that passage below that I've taken the liberty to copy from BLB (some of them partly emphasised by me):


Available Translations and Versions for Deu 14:26

KJV - Deu 14:26 - And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


NKJV - Deu 14:26 - "And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.


NLT - Deu 14:26 - When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want-an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.


NIV - Deu 14:26 -

Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.


ESV - Deu 14:26 -

“and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.


NASB - Deu 14:26 - "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


RSV - Deu 14:26 - and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


ASV - Deu 14:26 - and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household.


Young - Deu 14:26 - and thou hast given the money for any thing which thy soul desireth, for oxen, and for sheep, and for wine, and for strong drink, and for any thing which thy soul asketh, and thou hast eaten there before Jehovah thy God, and thou hast rejoiced, thou and thy house.

Darby - Deu 14:26 - and thou shalt give the money for whatever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thy house.


Webster - Deu 14:26 - And thou shalt bestow that money for whatever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thy household.


HNV - Deu 14:26 - and you shall bestow the money for whatever your soul desires, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul asks of you; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

Again, I will continue to keep it simple.


1. If you say "spend the money on whatever your heart desires" does not mean "spend the money on whatever your heart desires", it will be for you to explain why God did not know what He was talking about; it is not for me to explain the meaning of "bestow". And to show why that is irrelevant, deal with this question:

could the Deuteronomy 14 tither have spent or, if you like, "bestowed" the conversion money on wine or similar drink or sheep or oxen?


2. Perhaps while you are at it, you could tell us the difference between "bestow" and "spend"?

3. Maybe it is me, but I do not see where you have told us when the next third year of tithing in today's Christian calendar is. Please tell us as briefly and concisely as you can.

4. It seems to me that you are conflating several NT principles of "giving" with "tithing"; could you please outline briefly the differences/relationship between the two.

5. Specifically, is NT "giving" also only to be taken to a "designated place" or to the "store-house"?

Again simple questions:

1. If the tither could not choose what to do with the tithes (particularly the "third-year tithe" why was he instructed to spend the conversion money on whatever his heart desired -- as in Deuteronomy 14: 26 below?

"And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

It doesn't say someone else should spend the money on his behalf, does it? It also makes clear that he could spend the money on whatever his heart desires.


2. When is the next "third year of tithing" in today's Christian calendar? Where is the "designated place" for that? Or is that designated place the same as modern "store-houses"?

3. If the next third year of tithing comes, can a Christian going to the "designated place" then spend the money on whatever his heart desires?

Or is it that God did not know what he was doing when he said they could spend the conversion money on whatsoever their heart desired ---- if that same liberty is not given to today's Christians?

4. What on earth has the 1 Cor 16 that you quoted (dealing with a special collection to be made on one particular occasion for suffering Christians) got to do with tithes/tithing --- unless one reads into the Bible what is not there?

Again some very simple questions?


1. What is the difference between this so called "designated place" and the "store-house" mentioned in Malachi? Or are they one and the same?

2. If there was just one designated place, how many store-houses were there?

3. How many designated places are there today? How many storehouses are there today?

4. You point out that the tithes were given either yearly or every third year, why is today's tithing not done every year or every third year but monthly?

5. You say the tithes were brought to this so-called designated place to be then distributed to widows, orphans etc; where and when does today's distribution to widows, orphans etc take place?

6. If tithes are paid monthly today, does the distribution to the widows, orphans etc today take place monthly; if not why not and why then collect the tithes monthly?

7. So when is the next third year of tithing and will you advise the tithers on how they can recover the tithes to spend it on whatsoever their hearts desire after having already given the tithes to the pastors?

Alta, maybe you are right that "irrelevant" is not the most appropriate expression.

Nevertheless, tithing is not applicable to the Christian and certainly not compulsory.

Otokx

What you will find is that the Gospels do not really deal with "tithes"/"tithing", apart from passing references, becasue it is irrelevant to the Christian.

Pilgrim1

1. "Thy gates"/"Your gates" ---- my error; you were right "gates" was referring to something wider than the individual tither's gates; I was focussing too much on "house" and forgot the wider context.

2. However, even though some translations render it as "your towns", the sense of the passage is actually --- "among you" or "within your community"; and some translations render it this way. In other words, the point of the passage is that tithers were to give their tithes to (or share their tithes with) widows etc among them or within their community.

3. On your question of where is the house of God? --- The house of God is the person of each Christian --- not some edifice or building that people call "church". Yep, the church building is good to have for meetings of Christians and should be respected --- but ultimately it is just a building. You will recall that the earliest Christians did not have church buildings; they met sometimes in secret and fear in private houses among other places.

4. On your question of where do we find God's name today? --- Very simple: in the hearts and minds of Christians or believers. You may remember that He said, 'I will write My name in their hearts'. Remember again that the early Christians had no church buildings; you are not going to say they did not have God's name because they did not have church buildings, are you?

5. On the New Testament and tithes: the NT did not focus on tithing because of its irrelevance to Christians. Jesus only made a passing reference to it in relation to Pharisees that He was rebuking. If tithing was important, He would have taught it; He did not bother with it; rather he taught, again and again, charity. The only other significant NT passage mentioning tithing is the oft misinterpreted Hebrews passage which really was in the context of explaining that Old Testament practices do not carry over into the Christian era. Other than those two references, both of which are ultimately passing references, you will not find anyone teaching tithing in the New Testament ----- because it is irrelevant.


Back to issues to ponder in trying to interprete the tithing passages correctly.

1. The tithes that the tither was supposed to eat himself: are you going to say he first had to hand them over to priests; collect them again before eating them?

2. If the place was far, he was to sell the tithes for money: was this sale being done by priests on his behalf or did he do the selling himself?

3. He was to spend the money on whatever his heart desired; did he give the money to priests to spend on his behalf? So will he say to the priest, my heart desires some wine; then the priest to whom he had given the money will arrange to buy the wine for him?


4. Now apply similar principles to the tithes to be given to or shared with widows, orphans etc; even if there might have been some central sharing --- are you going to say that the Bible passages forbid a tither from giving tithes directly to or sharing tithes directly with widows, orphans etc "within their towns" or "within their gates" or "among them" or "within their community" --- whichever expression you prefer?

5. So if sharing tithes today with widows, orphans etc today should only be done through the "church", could you please point us to where "churches" are distributing these things to widows, orphans etc ------ preferably every month since they collect the tithes every month?

6. Can you say that a Christian who takes his "tithe" and shares it himself with his next door neighbour who is a needy widow and another who is a needy orphan is wrong ---- simply because he did not take the "tithe" to "church"?


Consider these for now; there are of course wider issues e.g. how "tithes" was not even money essentially but I'm trying to keep things narrow as to be more readily manageable.

It's very late now but I'll deal with one or two points; I can address any further thing you want me to later.

1. In English language and in the relevant Bible passages, "thy" and "your" mean one and the same thing.

2. In the relevant Bible passages, both "thy gates" and "your gates" refer to the tither's gates.

3. Deut 14 deals with the occasional feast (really, a massive party) that the Israelites held; yes they were told to go to where the Lord set his name --- but it was not a "church"; it is also not comparable with today's buildings that we call "churches".

4. This emphasis on "church" is misplaced ---- remember the Lord does not dwell in buildings made of human hands (hope you are familiar with that passage).

5. Distinguish the different injunctions or directions concerning tithes: if you go back and do a proper exegesis, you will see that God clearly said on some occasions for the tither himself to eat the tithe; on one occasion to even spend tithe money on anything (including alcohol!); on several occasions He said to give the tithes directly to widows, orphans etc === not through any intermediary, but directly i.e. no "store-house" business; yes the famous Malachi passage says bring the tithe into the Store-house but did you know that the Book of Malachi was mostly a rebuke to priests who were abusing the people's tithes? Go and study Malachi Chapter 2 carefully; indeed both chapters 1&2, then you can see chapter 3 in fuller context.

6. In any event, tithing is absolutely not a commandment for the Christian, hence neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles bothered to teach Christians to do it. The Christian duty is summed up in 2 Cor. 9 i.e. give cheerfully as you purpose in your own heart.

I'll leave you to ponder those for now.

Sleep tight.

A demain.

OK here goes again:

Sorry for a couple of loose references:

For Deut 13 read Deut 14 as already edited before your reply.

For Deut 26:2, read 26:12,13 as quoted below:

"When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled,

"then you shall say before the LORD your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them.



Finally, a word of caution to you: has it ever occurred to you that perhaps and just possibly you may be presenting your own opinion as the "WORD"? Worse, whether it be your own personally formed opinion or opinion you have learned from your pastor/teacher, that it may be wrong ----- and how unfortunate it would be to present wrong opinion as the "WORD".

Allta, this is the answer I gave to the same question in the other thread.

Whether or not you tithe, you are blessed for being a Christian. Jesus did not ask us to tithe because that is not what He was about. In fact it is reasonable to think that Jesus Himself probably never tithed since He did not fall into the category of those whom the tithe was for. He commands us to give --- in particular to help the needy, widows, orphans and other underprivileged folk. That does not mean we should not give when we attend "church"; but what we give should be dictated by our own conscience --- knowing our own personal circumstance. That is why 2 Cor 9:6 says we should give as we purpose in our hearts.

Don't let anyone brainwash you or, worse, scare you into "tithing" as they teach it i.e. give it to the pastor (because that is what it boils down to); it is false teaching and a lie.

Give what you can afford in church and try to help the needy. Finish.

I have been deliberately asking those questions to prevent reading into the text what is not there. What we are supposed to do is read out of the text what is in there. That way we hear from scripture what it wants us to know rather than read into it or transfer into it our preconceptions which often are misconceptions.

1. It is a misconception to interprete Deut. 14 as meaning bring your "tithes" into church; you can only arrive at that conclusion by reading into scripture what is not there.

2. Deuteronomy 26:2 is pretty clear --- the tithes were to be within the gates of the "tither" and the orphans etc were supposed to eat the tithes again within the gates of the tither. You can only conclude that this now means a "church" by reading into scripture what is not there.

3. Deut. 14 was clear that the tither in that instance could himself eat the tithe or spend money realised from selling it on whatever his heart desires; if there is a principle in that passage which is still applicable today, how is that fulfilled by "paying" the "tithes" into "church"? How does the believer himself enjoy his tithe to please God as the passage directs if "tithes" must always and only be paid into "church".


To keep things simple, I'll leave you to go and think carefully and meditate on those points for now.

I could give you a lot more insight or, if you like, "revelations" later.

Allta

Whether or not you tithe, you are blessed for being a Christian. Jesus did not ask us to tithe because that is not what He was about. In fact it is reasonable to think that Jesus Himself probably never tithed since He did not fall into the category of those whom the tithe was for. He commands us to give --- in particular to help the needy, widows, orphans and other underprivileged folk. That does not mean we should not give when we attend "church"; but what we give should be dictated by our own conscience --- knowing our own personal circumstance. That is why 2 Cor 9:6 says we should give as we purpose in our hearts.

Don't let anyone brainwash you or, worse, scare you into "tithing" as they teach it i.e. give it to the pastor (because that is what it boils down to); it is false teaching and a lie.

Give what you can afford in church and try to help the needy. Finish.

OK

1. What is/are the principle(s) derived from Malachi 3?

2. What is/are the principle(s) derived from Deuteronomy 14:22-29?

3. What is/are the principle(s) derived from Deu 26:12, 13 (quoted below with some emphases added)?


"When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled,

"then you shall say before the LORD your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them."

To make things easier, I'll reduce the questions to just two:

1. Does Malachi 3 apply to today's Christian?

2. Does Deuteronomy 14 apply to today's Christian?


Again, think about it veeery carefully.

Next questions:

1. Is Malachi 3 applicable to today's Christian?

2. Is Deuteronomy 14 applicable to today's Christian?

3. If you say Deuteronomy 14 does not apply to today's Christian, can you then still say that Malachi 3 applies to the Christian?

4. Or do both apply - in which case the Christian can make a choice?


Think about these things --- carefully!