₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
Answer my question. It is Yes or No. Dont worry about Quran or Hadith. If reference is not in your Bible, simply say no. Ko sija nbe now

That is always the last resort for the incompetents which I believe you are not , based on your posts.
Why should we even think about that ? It will gradually degenerate to name calling.

Empiree:
Enilove,

Do you agree with historian that 90 year Joseph the carpenter married 12 year old Mary, the mother of Jesus?. Pls your answer should be Yes or No

Use the Quran , hadith or the Bible as your references , not the books of demon possessed historians.

true2god:
The best way to reach out to Muslims is through their own books: the Koran, the hadith and the sirah rasool allahh. These three types of Islamic source documents are enough to debate any Muslim and show him the foolishness in following the 7th century Arabian warlord.

The idea of using the Bible to convince a radical online Muslim is a waste of time; their own books already condemned their perfect man as a charlatan. You can see thousands of reasons, inside those books, that directly condemned the prophet of allahh (police be upon him).

On the ayah and the hadith you posted above, that's the way to go. No any critically-minded person will read those expositions and still consider Mohammed normal, even by the 7th century standard. Most Muslims are decent human beings who are very ignorant of the damning contents, in the 3 Islamic canonical books, against their criminal prophet. If you read sirah rasool Allah, by ibn ishaq you will surely conclude that Mohammed can only be compared to Uther Pendragon, if you watch the adventure of MERLIN.

You are doing a great job, keep it up. Learn more about Islam through the hadith and the sirah. The Quran contains less than 10% information about Islam.

You are right , most Christians need to know one or two things about Islam so as not to get into their traps.
Pls , try and create time even if its on weekend to teach us one or two things for Christ's sake.

How can I get the electronic copy of the surah?

Thanks . God bless you , in Jesus' name.

Abdulgaffar22:
pls go on to drive your point out because I dont really see any special likeness btw Moses and Jesus christ. Their differences are far greater than their likeness

What are their differences ?
Moses was a Jew , Jesus was a Jew.
Jesus made several references to the Laws of Moses .

My point is this , the Law God gave to Moses was temporary pending the coming of the Christ.
The Israelites knew this and they asked John the Baptist:

John 1:19-20 KJV
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? [20] And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.


Why are the Jews til date expecting a Christ ?. Is it that they don't have a law or what ?

Why is Christ important than any prophet ?

This shows the importance of the death of Jesus. The prophet Isaiah prophesied of him saying :

Isaiah 53:6-8 KJV
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Abdulgaffar22:
@ enilove
If the condition for
crucifixion is that someone must have committed
a sin worthy of death, then Jesus must have escaped the crucifixion since he did not commit any sin worthy of death by crucifixion.

There is no need for Jesus to pay for our debt of sin, every sinner must pay for the debt of his own sin by REPENTANCE ( Ezekiel 33:10-16, Luke 5:32, Qur'an 66:7-9) . Otherwise, the sinner will pay for the debt of his own sin by punishment in the hell

The first step for you to understand the need for the death of Jesus is to ask yourself , why did Moses , after all the wonders and miracles God did through him still declared this :

Deuteronomy 18:15 KJV
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Can you tell me why ?

Abdulgaffar22:
@enilove
You are yet to answer my question; If it is well grounded in the Old testament that the
coming Messiah will be crucified, then why is it
that it is that the same Jesus crucifixion that
serve as a STUMBLING BLOCK for the Jews to
believe in Jesus (See 1st Corinthians 1:23)? Think
about this very well. Do you know their scriptures
more than them ? By continue to proclaim that Christ was crucified, Jews will never accept Jesus as their Messiah because it is not deeply rooted in their knowlege that their coming Messiah will be crucified and then become accursed by God.

Thrre is no where in the old testament where it was prophecies that Jesus would die on the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:23 KJV
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

The majority of the Jews who felt the crucifixion of Jesus was a stumblingblock were those who got carried away by the selfishness of the Pharisees and other rulers .

John 11:39-53 KJV
Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. [40] Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? [41] Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. [42] And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it , that they may believe that thou hast sent me. [43] And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. [44] And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. [45] Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. [46] But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. [47] Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. [48] If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. [49] And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, [50] Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. [51] And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; [52] And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. [53] Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

This means , it was not that they didn't know the truth but they were selfish and did not want the people to stop paying them homage as per verse 48.

Abdulgaffar22:
@enilove
Jesus did not commit any intentional sin or inherited any sin .
It is unrepentant sinner that deserved to be cursed by God if he dies in that condition.

You are correct , because the condition for crucifixion is that someone must have committed a sin worthy of death.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 KJV
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
[23] His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

A debtor is a servant to the lender , that is the scriptural standard.

Let us assume you settled your friend's debts last year , would it be right or wrong for someone to say you were a servant or not ?

Abdulgaffar22:
This is exactly what we are telling you that Jesus did not deserve to be under the curse of God because he never did anything against the will of God. Therefore he must have escaped the crucifixion since EVERYONE that iś crucified must definitely fall under under the curse of God. Otherwise, Deuteronomy 21:23 is not really true when it says "EVERYONE that is hanged is accursed by God". The term everyone implies both the sinners and the righteous. So you don't have any point to defend your case.

And if you agree with Paul that Jesus was cursed by God on our behalf as sinners, then be aware that there is no need for the righteous to be cursed by God before the sinners can be saved; the sinners can be saved through his sincere repentance as the folllowing verses below declare;
Son of man, say to the Israelites; this is what you are saying: our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live? Say to them: as surely as I live declares the sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! TURN FROM YOUR EVIL WAYS! Why will you die, people of Israel? Therefore, son of man say to your people… if someone, one who is wicked, REPENTS, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation… And if I say to the wicked person, you will surely die, but they then TURN FROM THEIR SINS and do what is just and right…follow the decree that gives life, and do no evil--THAT PERSON WILL SURELY LIVE :THEY WILL NOT DIE. NONE OF THE SINS that person has committed will be remembered against them.They have done what is just and right; they will surely live (Ezekiel 33:10-16)".
Have you now seen that there is no need for the righteous to be cursed by God before the sinners can be saved and lived. The sinners can simply atone for their sins by REPENTANCE.
Jesus confirmed this truth when he said; I came not to call the righteous, but SINNERS TO REPENTANCE (Luke 5:32).

Why can't you just make this short . There is no need for posting all these . Let's be quick with this , pls.

Yes or no ;

Did Jesus commit any sin or inherit any sin ?
Yes or no .

Is it sinner that is cursed or the righteous ?

Sinner or the righteous ?

I will still ask question relating to the cross , just let's take them one by one.

So as not to waste our time , I will continue .

The cross itself is not a curse , it is the person on the cross that is cursed . Why ? Because he committed a sin worthy of crucifixion.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 KJV
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

[23] His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Let's take a debtor as an example .
The Bible says the debtor is a servant to a lender :

Proverbs 22:7 KJV
The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

WHY IS A DEBTOR A SERVANT ?
BECAUSE HE IS OWING THE RICH MAN .

People are known to redeem the debts of others by paying on behalf of the debtor in order to cancel his debt.

The debt redeemer is Jesus Christ , who took out of his abundance wealth and settle the debt , thereby setting the debtor free. Simple.
The debt redeemer was never a servant to the lender .

There was never a time Jesus was accursed , even on the cross , he was righteous , that was why he could rise up the 3rd .
If at anytime he was a winner , it wouldn't have been possible for him to rise the 3rd day. Jesus said in :

John 14:30 KJV
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

That is , the devil could not see any sin in Jesus.

It is important to read a scripture in its full context:

Galatians 3:13-14 KJV
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the BLESSING of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

EvangelistMFM:
My G.O cannot file a suit in court..The media is just been used by agents of darkness to bring his name down..They started with Oyedepo, they gravitated to Adeboye, now it is my G.O, Dr.Olukoya. You people are just wasting your time..Truly this is end time. The devil and his cohorts are raging cos they know they have a short time. God bless you all

WHY DID YOU THINK THE G.O CANNOT SUE ANYONE IN COURT ?

I AM A MEMBER OF MFM AS WELL.

Abdulgaffar22:
@enilove

On the authority of Holy Qur'an;
1. Muslims believe in Jesus as a mighty prophet of God (Qur'an 19:30).
2. Muslims believe in Jesus miraculous birth (Qur'an 21:91)
3. Muslims believe in all the miracles Jesus performed during his earthly ministry (Qur'an 5:110)
4. Muslims believe in Jesus ascension to heaven (Qur'an 4:158)
5. Muslims believe in Jesus 2nd coming toward the end of the world.(Qur'an 43:57-61)

So if anyone tells you we muslims do not believe in Jesus, you have been deceived. What else do you want to us to believe about Jesus. It is only on the last day you will fully realize that the person you follow is not Jesus but Paul.

If it is well grounded in the Old testament that the coming Messiah will be crucified, then why is it that it is that the same Jesus crucifixion that serve as a STUMBLING BLOCK for the Jews to believe in Jesus (See 1st Corinthians 1:23)? Think about this very well. Do you know their scriptures more than them ?
If the Premise 5 is wrong and the muslims cannot win God on the issue of Jesus crucifixion, then respond on the behalf of God to the last point made by the muslims

I WANT TO ASK YOU THESE QUESTIONS :

DID JESUS CHRIST COMMIT ANY SIN OR INHERIT ANY SIN THAT WOULD MAKE GOD TO CURSE HIM?

ARE SINNERS CURSED OR BLESSED BY GOD ?

Pls , answer this so that I can reply your last post .

Do yo think the Trees , the fishes , the sun , moon , stars , humans , animals just came into existence by chance ?

Think deeper , you shall know there is surely a Creator .

Abdulgaffar22:
@enilove

If all the premises of my argument is wrong, then take your time to spell out the reason for each of the premises if you are truthful
Premise 2 says Jesus crucifixion is one of the foundational pillars of Christianity. Yet the only reason you insist that all my premises are wrong is because they argue against your most cherised doctrine ;Jesus crucifixion. Is this not a contradiction on your part ?

I did not deemed it fit to read what you wrote regarding your " premises " for the reason that you are always coming up with one premise\ environment or the other.
Secondly , you don't consider any answer as right except yours .
Thirdly, you write so many letter words per post, which makes it boring and a share waste of time.

To the main point of discussion.

Your 5th condition is wrong for the following reasons :

1) Ignorance is not an excuse b4 God . The Bible makes us to understand that ignorance\lack of knowledge kills.
2) To believe is not as important as to obey the words of God. To believe miracles or prophethood is not important as believing the words of the prophet and follow his instructions .
3) No Muslim can argue about the crucifixion and win because , God will ask them "did you not hear the gospel and why did you not believe it? Did you not read about all his miracles? Why did you decide to follow a man who was a murderer instead of a peace lover?
4 ) God will ask them whether they did not read that Jesus was cursed on the cross to give blessing to all who were cursed ?
God will also ask why they did not believe this also :

Matthew 20:28 KJV
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a RANSOM for many.

Their only answer would be " I did not know or believe him ".
Unfortunately , that is not an excuse and their is no more chance for repentance .

true2god:
This is the funniest ayah in the Quran:

ﻈِﻴﻤًﺎ
"O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity."
(QS. Al-Ahzaab: Verse 53)

I read ibn kathir's commentary on this ayah and I shook my head in disbelief that a reasonable person will still call this charlatan a prophet. According to ibn Kathir, the sahabas usually stay behind, chatting with Mohammed's wives, after meal. One of the sahabas, name not mentioned, suggested that he would marry Aisha after the death of Mohammed. This made Mohammed angry and uncomfortable with his sahabas hanging around his wives after meal. As usual, allahh came to the rescue by revealing Koran 33:53 to Muhammad.

allahh also assisted Mohammed in Koran 33;37 such that no man must marry any of his wife, whether he is dead or alive. What a prophet!

You are very correct .

It baffles one why the Muslims see this kind of repugnant declaration as God's revelation.

Why should a right thinking person be gambling with his\her life?

The most obnoxious answer someone could give regarding that surah 33:53 was that it was revealed to teach basic morals.

To me , I see the below as even worse than that Surah 33:53 :
Allah SWT says:

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ ۥ ٓ أَمْرًا أَنْ يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَنْ يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۥ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلٰلًا مُّبِينًا
"It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error."
(QS. Al-Ahzaab: Verse 36)

Allah used to consult Muhammad for decisions and after that , no more options for the Muslims but to just follow .
But there was a case where Allah and Muhammad made mistake and someone had to put them right :

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 512:
Sahih Bukhari :
Narrated Al-Bara:

There was revealed: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah.' (4.95)

The Prophet said, "Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot)."' Then he said, "Write: 'Not equal are those Believers who sit..", and at that time 'Amr bin Um Maktum, the blind man was sitting behind the Prophet . He said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your order For me (as regards the above Verse) as I am a blind man?" So, instead of the above Verse, the following Verse was revealed:

'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.' (4.95)

So , Allah and Muhammad did not remember the blinds and the unfit .

The worst of them all is this :

Allah SWT says:

وَإِذْ تَقُولُ لِلَّذِىٓ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَأَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِ أَمْسِكْ عَلَيْكَ زَوْجَكَ وَاتَّقِ اللَّهَ وَتُخْفِى فِى نَفْسِكَ مَا اللَّهُ مُبْدِيهِ وَتَخْشَى النَّاسَ وَاللَّهُ أَحَقُّ أَنْ تَخْشٰىهُ ۖ فَلَمَّا قَضٰى زَيْدٌ مِّنْهَا وَطَرًا زَوَّجْنٰكَهَا لِكَىْ لَا يَكُونَ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ حَرَجٌ فِىٓ أَزْوٰجِ أَدْعِيَآئِهِمْ إِذَا قَضَوْا مِنْهُنَّ وَطَرًا ۚ وَكَانَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ مَفْعُولًا
"And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished."
(QS. Al-Ahzaab: Verse 37)

I know the Muslims really need prayers . What do you think?

Abdulgaffar22:
Despite their agreement on Jesus as a mighty prophet of God who was born miraculously by virgin Mary, Christians and Muslims still disagree on some certain issues concerning Jesus Christ. For example, Bible affirm that Jesus crucifixion is true while the Qur'an declare that Jesus crucifixion is NOT true (Qur'an 4:157). Base on this very diasgreement, it is impossible for both Islam and Christianity to originate from the same God.

But for the sake of argument, let us assume that Christianity is the one and only true faith from God. Now proceed and read the following premises.


PREMISE 1: If the ONE AND ONLY TRUE faith from God is Christianity, then ALL the foundational pillars of Christianity must be TRUE.


PREMISE 2: Jesus crucifixion is ONE of the FOUNDATIONAL PILLARS of Christianity:
In fact, it is the heart of the Gospel. This is the reason why Paul declared as follows
"For I resolved to KNOW NOTHING while I was with you EXCEPT Jesus Christ and him CRUCIFIED (1st Corinthians 2:2)
Again, you will notice that the symbol of "CROSS" which is usually used to represent Christianity stands for nothing but JESUS CRUCIFIXION. Even when the world Christian denominations differ over some issues like Trinity, they ALL (including Jehovah witnesses) AGREE on Jesus crucifixion. Therefore, Jesus crucifixion is INDISPENSABLE in the world of Christianity.


PREMISE 3: Therefore, being one of the foundational pillars of Christianity, then follow from the premise 1, Jesus crucifixion must be TRUE, if the ONE AND ONLY TRUE faith from God is Christianity.


PREMISE 4: Hence, if Jesus crucifixion is REALLY TRUE, then NOBODY must be able to argue reasonably with God over the issue of Jesus crucifixion and win.


PREMISE 5: However, Muslims would be able to argue reasonably with God over the issue of Jesus crucifixion and win.
Let us suppose the following conversation take place between God Almighty and the muslims on the day of Judgement on the assumption that Jesus crucifixion is true;

God: O you muslims why did you NOT believe in Jesus crucifixion ?

Muslims : O Lord our God and creator, Qur'an make us to believe in Jesus as Your mighty prophet who was born miraculously by virgin Mary. Qur'an also make us to believe in all the miracles that Jesus performed during his earthly ministry. Furthermore, Qur'an make us to believe in Jesus'ascension to heaven and that he is coming back toward the end of the world. So it is also written in the same Qur'an that Jesus was not crucified.

God; Yes, your Qur'an is true regarding all those things it mentioned concerning Jesus. But why are you so sure that your Qur'an did not get it wrong on the issue of Jesus crucifixion ?

Muslims: O Lord our God and Creator, the reason why we believe that Qur'an is true on the issue of Jesus crucifixion is because it is also written both in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 21:23) and the New Testament ( Galatians 3:13) that "EVERY ONE THAT IS HANGED (i:e CRUCIFIED) IS ACCURSED BY GOD" and it is not possible for You as a God of love, mercy and justice to put your innocent, righteous and beloved prophet under Your curse. From the logical reasoning you gave to us as human being, we were able to deduce that only the devils and his followers are deserved to be under Your curse: NOT Your innocent, righteous and beloved prophet like Jesus christ, who never did anything against Your Will. You are naturally known to always BLESS Your innocent, righteous and beloved prophets and never to CURSE any one of them.

Please do you think God Almighty can still have further evidence against the Muslims concerning the issue of Jesus crucifixion base on this reasonable reply ?

Now let us suppose that similar conversation take place between God and the Christians on the day of Judgement on the assumption that Jesus crucifixion is NOT true;

God: O you Christians, why did you believe in Jesus crucifixion ?

Christians: O Lord our God and creator, Bible make us to believe in Jesus as Your son and as Your mighty prophet who was born miraculously by virgin Mary. Bible also make us to believe in all the miracles that Jesus performed during his earthly ministry. Furthermore, Bible make us to believe in Jesus'ascension to heaven and that he is coming back toward the end of the world. So it is also written clearly in the same Bible that Jesus was crucified and resurrected back to life on the third day.

God: But it is also written in the same Bible that ANY ONE THAT IS HANGED (i:e CRUCIFIED) IS UNDER MY CURSE (Deuteronomy 21:23). So how could you have believed that I put My innocent, righteous and beloved son under My curse?

Christians: O Lord our God and creator, we believe in Jesus crucifixion because it has been prophesied many years ago in the Bible that a coming messiah must be KILLED and CURSED on our behalf before we can be entitled to Your salvation.

God: But why did you think I must KILL and CURSE My innocent, righteous and beloved son (or prophet) before I can grant you My salvation ?

Christians: O Lord our God and Creator, You cannot just do away with Your justice simply because You want to grant us Your salvation. This is the reason why we believed that an innocent and righteous soul must be KILLED and CURSED on our behalf to SATISFY YOUR DIVINE JUSTICE before we can be entitled to Your salvation.

God: But if it is an act of INJUSTICE for Me as a God of love and mercy to FREELY forgive and grant you My salvation, then is it not a GREATER act of INJUSTICE for Me to KILL and CURSE My innocent, righteous and beloved son (or prophet) ?

Christians: But O Lord our God and creator, the Bible is too detailed and too explicit on the issue of Jesus crucifixion for us not to believe in it.

God: But how could you have relied COMPLETELY on the Bible for the TRUTH when it has so many contradictions abound on its record of events concerning Jesus crucifixion . Can you resolve the following contradictions on Jesus crucifixion for Me?

Question 1; When was Jesus exactly crucified ?
-It was at the THIRD HOUR (Mark 15:25 KJV ).
- It was after the SIXTH HOUR (John 19:14-16 KJV)

Question 2; What was the actual colour of the robe given to Jesus when the soldiers were mocking him ?
-It was purple (John 19:2)
-It was scarlet (Matthew 27:28)

Question 3; How did detachment of the troops recognized Jesus before they arrested him ?
- It was through the kissing of Jesus by Judas (Matthew 26:48-49)
-It was Jesus that went out and presented himself to them (John 18:4-.

Question 4; Who carried the cross of crucifixion to Golgotha ?
-It was Simon of Cyrene (Matthew 27:32 )
- It was Jesus himself (John 19:17)

Question 5; What was the ACTUAL WORD FOR WORD inscription fastened to the Jesus’ Cross ?
-The inscription was : “THE KING OF THE JEWS.” (Mark 15:26)
- The inscription was : “THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.” (Matthew 27:37).
- The inscription was : “JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.” ( John 19:19)

These are just only five out of many contradictions abound on the record of events concerning Jesus crucifixion. How could you have believed that all these irreconcilable contradictions were inspired by Me ?

Please do you think the Christians can still have further evidence against God concerning the issue of Jesus crucifixion base on all these reasonable replies given to them by God ?

See how the Muslims would win and the Christians would lose their arguments with God over the issue of Jesus crucifixion on the day of Judgement !


PREMISE 6: Since Muslims would be able to argue reasonably with God over the issue of Jesus crucifixion and win, then follow from premise 4, Jesus crucifixion is NOT TRUE. And if Jesus crucifixion is NOT TRUE, then follow from premise 3, ONE of the FOUNDATIONAL PILLARS of Christianity is NOT TRUE. And if one of the foundational pillars of Christianity is NOT TRUE, then follow from premise 1, the ONE AND ONLY TRUE faith from God is not Christianity. And if the ONE AND ONLY TRUE faith from God is not Christianity, then Christianity must be a FALSE faith.

Being a false faith, Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Christianity. Therefore, if the Christians really love Jesus Christ and they do not want to lose him completely, they must embrace Islam. This is because apart from Christianity, Islam is the only Abrahamic faith on earth that make believing in Jesus and all other biblical prophets as one of the basic and most fundamental article of its faith.

PLEASE FOR THE SAKE OF GOD, WHICH OF THE SIX PREMISES CITED ABOVE IS WRONG ? THEN STATE THE REASON WHY IT IS WRONG.

ALL OF THEM ARE WRONG.

Op , all Muslims are serving the devil. There is no doubt about that . All Muslims shall go to hell , according to your prophet :

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 770:
Sahih Bukhari :
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'

There will be hooks like the thorns of Sa'dan in Hell. Have you seen the thorns of Sa'dan?" The people said, "Yes." He said, "These hooks will be like the thorns of Sa'dan but nobody except Allah knows their greatness in size and these will entangle the people according to their deeds; some of them will fall and stay in Hell forever; others will receive punishment (torn into small pieces) and will get out of Hell, till when Allah intends mercy on whomever He likes amongst the people of Hell, He will order the angels to take out of Hell those who worshipped none but Him alone. The angels will take them out by recognizing them from the traces of prostrations, for Allah has forbidden the (Hell) fire to eat away those traces. So they will come out of the Fire, it will eat away from the whole of the human body except the marks of the prostrations. At that time they will come out of the Fire as mere skeletons. The Water of Life will be poured on them and as a result they will grow like the seeds growing on the bank of flowing water. Then when Allah had finished from the Judgments amongst his creations, one man will be left between Hell and Paradise and he will be the last man from the people of Hell to enter paradise. He will be facing Hell, and will say, 'O Allah! Turn my face from the fire as its wind has dried me and its steam has burnt me.' Allah will ask him, "Will you ask for anything more in case this favor is granted to you?' He will say, "No by Your (Honor) Power!" And he will give to his Lord (Allah) what he will of the pledges and the covenants. Allah will then turn his face from the Fire. When he will face Paradise and will see its charm, he will remain quiet as long as Allah will. He then will say, 'O my Lord! it."

Volume 1, Book 3, Number 101:
Sahih Bukhari :
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Some women requested the Prophet to fix a day for them as the men were taking all his time. On that he promised them one day for religious lessons and commandments. Once during such a lesson the Prophet said, "A woman whose three children die will be shielded by them from the Hell fire." On that a woman asked, "If only two die?" He replied, "Even two (will shield her from the Hell-fire)."

Empiree:
So now that you are presented evidence, you called it "caricature"?. Well, this habit of your is not new by the way.


So far, everything else you quoted are unrelated. And you have no idea what you posted. Anyways, for short, the ahadith you quote is teaching his companions (and by extension muslims) etiquette. So you mean to tell me you just break in to your mom's bedroom without knocking and and without waiting for permission, then talk trash in her bedroom?. Is this how you relate with her?.

This verse below is teaching you basic adhab


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJyzJBvFFOs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdy66QJyOyQ&t=1792s

This guy , I didn't know you were this funny o . How does that relate to teaching of basic morals ? Muhammad was teaching grown up men basic morals ?

Let us assume you were right .

What are these ones teaching ?
1)
Allah SWT says:

وَإِذْ تَقُولُ لِلَّذِىٓ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَأَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِ أَمْسِكْ عَلَيْكَ زَوْجَكَ وَاتَّقِ اللَّهَ وَتُخْفِى فِى نَفْسِكَ مَا اللَّهُ مُبْدِيهِ وَتَخْشَى النَّاسَ وَاللَّهُ أَحَقُّ أَنْ تَخْشٰىهُ ۖ فَلَمَّا قَضٰى زَيْدٌ مِّنْهَا وَطَرًا زَوَّجْنٰكَهَا لِكَىْ لَا يَكُونَ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ حَرَجٌ فِىٓ أَزْوٰجِ أَدْعِيَآئِهِمْ إِذَا قَضَوْا مِنْهُنَّ وَطَرًا ۚ وَكَانَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ مَفْعُولًا
"And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished."
(QS. Al-Ahzaab: Verse 37)

2)
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 449:
Sahih Bukhari :
Narrated Al-Bara:

The Prophet said to Hassan, "Abuse them (with your poems), and Gabriel is with you (i.e, supports you)." (Through another group of sub narrators) Al-Bara bin Azib said, "On the day of Quraiza's (besiege), Allah's Apostle said to Hassan bin Thabit, 'Abuse them (with your poems), and Gabriel is with you (i.e. supports you).' "

3)
Book 008, Number 3425:
Sahih Muslim :
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (purbety) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.

4)
Volume 7, Book 71, Number 610:
Sahih Bukhari :
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas and 'Aisha:

Abu Bakr kissed (the forehead of) the Prophet when he was dead. 'Aisha added: We put medicine in one side of his mouth but he started waving us not to insert the medicine into his mouth. We said, "He dislikes the medicine as a patient usually does." But when he came to his senses he said, "Did I not forbid you to put medicine (by force) in the side of my mouth?" We said, "We thought it was just because a patient usually dislikes medicine." He said, "None of those who are in the house but will be forced to take medicine in the side of his mouth while I am watching, except Al-'Abbas, for he had not witnessed your deed."

5)
Volume 3, Book 47, Number 755:
Bukhari :
Narrated 'Urwa from 'Aisha:

The wives of Allah's Apostle were in two groups. One group consisted of 'Aisha, Hafsa, Safiyya and Sauda; and the other group consisted of Um Salama and the other wives of Allah's Apostle. The Muslims knew that Allah's Apostle loved 'Aisha, so if any of them had a gift and wished to give to Allah's Apostle, he would delay it, till Allah's Apostle had come to 'Aisha's home and then he would send his gift to Allah's Apostle in her home. The group of Um Salama discussed the matter together and decided that Um Salama should request Allah's Apostle to tell the people to send their gifts to him in whatever wife's house he was. Um Salama told Allah's Apostle of what they had said, but he did not reply. Then they (those wives) asked Um Salama about it. She said, "He did not say anything to me." They asked her to talk to him again. She talked to him again when she met him on her day, but he gave no reply. When they asked her, she replied that he had given no reply. They said to her, "Talk to him till he gives you a reply." When it was her turn, she talked to him again. He then said to her, "Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, as the Divine Inspirations do not come to me on any of the beds except that of Aisha." On that Um Salama said, "I repent to Allah for hurting you." Then the group of Um Salama called Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle and sent her to Allah's Apostle to say to him, "Your wives request to treat them and the daughter of Abu Bakr on equal terms." Then Fatima conveyed the message to him. The Prophet said, "O my daughter! Don't you love whom I love?" She replied in the affirmative and returned and told them of the situation. They requested her to go to him again but she refused. They then sent Zainab bint Jahsh who went to him and used harsh words saying, "Your wives request you to treat them and the daughter of Ibn Abu Quhafa on equal terms." On that she raised her voice and abused 'Aisha to her face so much so that Allah's Apostle looked at 'Aisha to see whether she would retort. 'Aisha started replying to Zainab till she silenced her. The Prophet then looked at 'Aisha and said, "She is really the daughter of Abu Bakr."

Empiree:
I Know your problem. It was because you couldn't prove how Jesus is God or son of God. Then you asked me how Muhammad was sent by God?. Why not asked yourself how Jesus was sent just like you tried to prove Moses?. Anyways, believe it or not, it is too late to question prophethood of Muhammad. Whether you believe he was or not is pretty much irrelevant. Here, digest this

This should be enough evidence.

What kind of caricature post is this ? Was that the evidence Muhammad gave to show God called him?
It would have been better if you had not replied.

Must you follow religion because others are into it without knowing what it is all about ?

Muhammad had no evidence to show the people, and they there4 decided not to listen to him.
Muhammad had to take up arms with bandits to fight and force people to accept Islam.

THERE ARE SO MANY REASONS WHY THE QURAN YOU QUOTED IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD BUT MUHAMMAD'S.

When someone comes and say God calls me and his revelations are mostly in his favour , you have to be suspicious

Book 008, Number 3333:
Muslim :
Anas b. Malik (Allah be pleased with him) reported: When Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married Zainab bint jahsh, he invited people (to the wedding feast) and they ate food. They then sat there and entered into conversation. He (the Holy Prophet) made a stir as if he was preparing to stand up, but (the persons busy in talking) did not stand up. When he (the Holy Prophet) saw it, he stood up and when he did so, some other persons stood up. 'Asim and Abd al-A'la in their narrations made this addition: Three (persons) sat there, and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) came there to enter (the apartment) but he found the people sitting there. Then they stood up and went away. He said: Then I came and informed Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) that they had gone away. He (the Holy Prophet) then came there until he entered (the apartment). I also went and was about to enter, when he hung a curtain between me and him (and it was on this occasion that) Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, revealed this verse:" O you who believe, enter not the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished to the (words)" Surely this is serious in the sight of Allah" (xxxiii. 53).

Allah SWT says:
يٰٓأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا لَا تَدْخُلُوا بُيُوتَ النَّبِىِّ إِلَّآ أَنْ يُؤْذَنَ لَكُمْ إِلٰى طَعَامٍ غَيْرَ نٰظِرِينَ إِنٰىهُ وَلٰكِنْ إِذَا دُعِيتُمْ فَادْخُلُوا فَإِذَا طَعِمْتُمْ فَانْتَشِرُوا وَلَا مُسْتَئْنِسِينَ لِحَدِيثٍ ۚ إِنَّ ذٰلِكُمْ كَانَ يُؤْذِى النَّبِىَّ فَيَسْتَحْىِۦ مِنْكُمْ ۖ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَسْتَحْىِۦ مِنَ الْحَقِّ ۚ وَإِذَا سَأَلْتُمُوهُنَّ مَتٰعًا فَسْئَلُوهُنَّ مِنْ وَرَآءِ حِجَابٍ ۚ ذٰلِكُمْ أَطْهَرُ لِقُلُوبِكُمْ وَقُلُوبِهِنَّ ۚ وَمَا كَانَ لَكُمْ أَنْ تُؤْذُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَلَآ أَنْ تَنْكِحُوٓا أَزْوٰجَهُ ۥ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِۦٓ أَبَدًا ۚ إِنَّ ذٰلِكُمْ كَانَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ عَظِيمًا
"O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity."
(QS. Al-Ahzaab: Verse 53)

Is this what you call revelations? How does this concern you and other Muslims that worths being included in a divine book?
MUHAMMAD WAS THE WORST ADOPTED FATHER EVER :

Allah SWT says:
وَإِذْ تَقُولُ لِلَّذِىٓ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَأَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِ أَمْسِكْ عَلَيْكَ زَوْجَكَ وَاتَّقِ اللَّهَ وَتُخْفِى فِى نَفْسِكَ مَا اللَّهُ مُبْدِيهِ وَتَخْشَى النَّاسَ وَاللَّهُ أَحَقُّ أَنْ تَخْشٰىهُ ۖ فَلَمَّا قَضٰى زَيْدٌ مِّنْهَا وَطَرًا زَوَّجْنٰكَهَا لِكَىْ لَا يَكُونَ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ حَرَجٌ فِىٓ أَزْوٰجِ أَدْعِيَآئِهِمْ إِذَا قَضَوْا مِنْهُنَّ وَطَرًا ۚ وَكَانَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ مَفْعُولًا
"And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished."
(QS. Al-Ahzaab: Verse 37)

Can you see the kind of person the Muslims regard as prophet? Can you do this ?

Muhammad said this revelation was to guide other Muslim so as not to feel uncomfortable when there was need for them to marry their adopted son's wife.
Shortly after this , allah had to abolish the issue of adoption in Islam . What then was the need of the revelation.

Aishat who was very close to Muhammad knew this googling tactics and thereby said :

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 48:
Bukhari :
Narrated Hisham's father:

Khaula bint Hakim was one of those ladies who presented themselves to the Prophet for marriage. 'Aisha said, "Doesn't a lady feel ashamed for presenting herself to a man?" But when the Verse: "(O Muhammad) You may postpone (the turn of) any of them (your wives) that you please,' (33.51) was revealed, " 'Aisha said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I do not see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you.' "

SOME OTHER PEOPLE WERE AWARE OF HIS FALSEHOODS :
Allah SWT says:

وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَآ ءَايَةً مَّكَانَ ءَايَةٍ ۙ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ قَالُوٓا إِنَّمَآ أَنْتَ مُفْتَرٍ ۚ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
"And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know."
(QS. An-Nahl: Verse 101)

What was the need for substituting one revelation for another?
Why was the first set of Quran burnt?

WHY WAS THE FIRST SETS OF QURAN DESTROYED? SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN AVOIDING THIS QUESTION.

All you know is to berate Christianity while you know nothing about yours.









t a lady feel ashamed for presenting herself to a man?

We have different ways of reporting the same event .

Mr A can be report a detailed account while Mr B might just take one or two points to make his report. That does not mean the accounts differ.

To that of Judas :

Matthew 27:5-9 KJV
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. [6] And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. [7] And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. [8] Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. [9] Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Acts 1:18-19 KJV
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. [19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

1
The Matthew account says Judas hanged himself.

The Acts accounts says " falling headlong , he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

An analytical mind would not call this a different account. why?
The acts account says HE FELL ... , which could mean after hanging himself , the tree , rope and whatever he used for hanging himself gave way when struggling between life and death , and he fell in the process "headlong bursting his bowels" , simple.

He couldn't have committed the suicide in anyone's presence , so people who saw him dead , would certainly have variant account. But it will all point to the same thing , he hung himself or he fell while hanging himself. Because they could see the rope around his neck and could also see a broken scull and bust bowel.

2

The field whether bought by the pharisees for Judas or bought by Judas himself , which is unlikely , still belonged to Judas.

I just decided to check this thread because I did think it is something someone should be bothered about.

budaatum:
Who is eni?

okay .

Empiree:
this is about prophets Muhammad and Jesus. Why did you switch to Moses suddenly?. Diverting attention?

Our discussion was never limited to Jesus or Moses.

Have you forgotten you mentioned David , Abraham etc ?

It is about the religions of Christianity and Islam. The Bible and the Quran.

budaatum:
Most times, you just don't understand buda.

And who is buda ?

Empiree:
Question is, who did you switch to Moses?

God of Moses means the God that called Moses. The God of the Israelites.

Empiree:
Question is, who did you switch to Moses?

I don't understand what you mean

budaatum:
My advise to you is that you should accept Jesus into your life! If you believed Jesus was your God, you would be dancing with joy for being persecuted in his name.

At times you say sensible things,Just like your reply above, but most times , you say things off sense.

Empiree:
Allah Says (what means): "Say, (O Muhammad): 'O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, (from him) to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death.' So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided." [Quran 7: 158]

The verses in this regard are many, what we quote here is just one example. With regard to the Sunnah (traditions and approved actions of Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention )), there are many clear indications that Allah's Messenger began his call to Islam with Tawheed.


Amr bin Abasah As-Sulami, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "During the times of ignorance … I heard of a man in Makkah who received revelation. So I set upon my riding beast and came to him. At that time he was in hiding, due to the oppression of his people. So I behaved in a way that enabled me to gain access to him in Makkah. I said to him: "Who are you?" He replied: "I am a Prophet.' So I said: "And what is a Prophet?' He said: 'Allah has sent me as a Messenger.' So I said: 'And what is it that He has sent you with?' He said: 'I have been sent to order the joining of ties of relationship, to break the idols, so that Allah is worshipped Alone and nothing at all is associated in worship along with Him." [Muslim]

This means anyone that says God calls him should be believed , right ?

Is that not suicidal to just believe anyone without getting evidence of his calling ?

What I mean is this :

Exodus 4:1-9 KJV
And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee. [2] And the Lord said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. [3] And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. [4] And the Lord said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand: [5] That they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. [6] And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. [7] And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. [8] And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. [9] And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land : and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land .

WHAT WAS THE SIGN GOD GAVE TO MUHAMMAD , SINCE HE CLAIMED IT WAS THE GOD OF MOSES THAT ALSO CALLED HIM ?

Empiree:
Hope it is not too late before you realized what's up. You had enough chances to prove your religion but you and the fellow messed up everytime. Thats sad.

So?. Every religion on earth has some sort of prophecies the would come to pass. How's that criteria to determine the truth?. My friend, there is only one religion with God, Islam. Nothing else. But you do have the right to practice whatever religion you want. But the moment you take your last breath, everything stops right there and there is no coming back. f their grandpa and speak to them. Therefore, they are misguided bcus of that. But to the Hindu, it is the truth.

Why did you think Muhammad was God's Prophet ?

There must be reasons why despite all these idolatry practices of Islam , you think you are on the right way.

Tell us .

Empiree:
We muslims have no problem believing previous scriptures in their original form. It is not that difficult to reject nonsense about zion story. The same people who lied about their prophets, curse their prophets and you want me to believe in their stories?. The same Bible that speaks evil of great prophets of God as drunkard and incest? smh

Because of animosity towards Hajar by Isaac mother, Sarah

You should shake you head vigorously so that the satanic viels covering your face can fall off.

When this Yoruba comedian artist , GBENGA ADEBOYE DIED on 6th October 2002 , he said when he got to heaven he was sent back to the earth to come and bring his Bible and his hymn book.
For a spiritually intelligent person who knew him , one would know the reason why he was sent back. He had a belief that the Christians , Muslims and pagans are all worshiping the same God , which is evident in most of his records .
Why was he not asked to bring along with him a Quran ?
This was to enlighten the wise that Christianity is the way .

You can call the Bible nonsence and useless , it does not matter , the truth will be revealed to everyone on the day of judgements.

Something the Bible says is gradually coming to pass in this our generation but most people wouldn't believe it.

Revelation 13:15-17 KJV
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. [16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: [17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The best firm of biometric for human identification are the retina and finger prints.

The world will soon face out the use of ATM and carrying of cash. And a computer chip containing peoples data will be implanted either in the person's right hand or in his forehead.This will contain the mark of the devil and anyone who takes it can never enter heaven , since they have become Satan's property.

Obama also passed a free health care bill into law in 2016 . To benefit from it , a small rice like chips has to be implanted in their hands.

What the Bible says is unfolding gradually in form of technologies.

My second point regarding Abraham is , for Abraham to have sent his first born Ishmael away from him according to God's instructions , it means God has no plan to save the world through Ishmael or his descendants.

God divided the Red Sea for the Israelites to escape to show a sign to the world that He is God of Abraham , Isaac and Israel.

Genesis 15:13-15 KJV
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; [14] And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. [15] And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

It was the sraelites that were in a Egypt for four hundred years and God did those miracles for world to know that the God of the Israelites is God the Creator of the Red Sea,

Empiree:
Similar verse in the Qur'an pointing to same Baca. Quran speaks in the local dialect of the people at that time. You can see it reflects in this verse if Quran


The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: (Quran 2:96)




Because their prophets were the same. But you twisted their history




Mecca is the city. Baca is Bakka and kaaba is the house of the Lord in Baca mentioned in Psalms 84 v 6



Yes, that was desert. But there was a spring a that gushed forth in the desert when Hajar was doing tawaf in around Baca in Mecca and thirsty. The pool that you referred to is a well known Well of ZamZam water till today.



what's the name of the stream or valley in Palestine/Israel region called today?. I am sure it is not Baca but most likely Sea Of Galilee or other one. And does valley of Baca still exist today in Jerusalem?. If it does, is it officially recognized by the name Baca?.

Keep deceivng yourself

Is Zion in Mecca?
How does Beca relates to Mecca ?

Maybe you did not know . Islam was derived from the English words sentence " It is a lie " That is , Its a lie , Islie or Islam.

From the beginning God told Abraham to send Ishmael away from Isaac the promised child.
If God had plan of salvation for him he wouldn't have told Abraham to send him away.

Genesis 17:7-9 KJV
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[8] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
[9] And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Genesis 17:15-21 KJV
And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be . [16] And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. [17] Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? [18] And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! [19] And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. [20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. [21] But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Genesis 21:10-14 KJV
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. [11] And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. [12] And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. [13] And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. [14] And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.


ABRAHAN , ISSAC AND JACOB DIED IN CANAAN ( ISRAEL ) AND WERE BURIED THERE.

WHY WAS ISHMAEL SENT AWAY ?

Empiree:
How is Kaaba new to you. Here it is in your bible with exception of dialects. Both Bible and Quran recognize Abraham presence at Kaaba(Baca) in Mecca

This is the Bible you referenced :

Psalm 84:6-7 KJV
Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
[7] They go from strength to strength, every one of them in ZION appeareth before God.

Why is Islam always looking for biblical references to fit into its idolatry and lies ?

Is Baca not glaringly different from mecca ?
Is Mecca not a desert place? Can't you see where it is written "the rain ALSO FILLED THE POOLS. Are there pools in Mecca.
Finally , did the verse 7 not states where the journey lead them to? When did Zion , the city of David become Mecca?

VALLEY OF BACA IS DIFFERENT FROM VALLEY IN MECCA.

Baca was actually a valley near Jerusalem , and its name means the place of weeping.

Empiree:
I am so glad you said this. This is why there will forever be different doctrines and different versions in christianity.

This is called TAWHEED i:e UNIFICATION OF WORSHIP. It is a bond. Our worship is the same unlike yours.

This last post of your is probably the most easiest questions of all since your started your contribution on this thread

1)
TAWHEED \ UNIFICATION .
You are right , it is unification . But the question is , unification with who ? With the devil or with God? That is the question a heaven seeker should ask himself.

You all face a cubicle black clothed house with a black stone entrenched in the wall , and bow down to it in unification .
That is , unity in idolatry.

2)
David did not build house for God . He started it but God told him to stop , because he had shed so many blood.

3)
Abraham did not build any kabaah neither did he journeyed to Saudi Arabia. If he was the builder and the instruction was from God , he would have built such a house in Israel. Unless you people will lie that after building it , he did not serve God anymore.

4)
You are also correct by saying Catholics are idol worshipers too. They created images of Mary , Jesus , saint ... which is contrary to the commandments of God in :

Exodus 20:2-4 KJV
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no other gods before me. [4] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

And you can see the similarities btw the Muslims and the catholics . They both make use of prayer beads. That is , Rosery and Tasbih.
Why using or copying the idol worshippers? It is simple , to make them worship Satan ignorantly and take them to hell.

These prayer beads are used by various religious traditions such as Hinduism , Buddhism , catholics and Muslims . At least , 2 of them are known to be idol worshipers who make use of graven images as well.
What relationship does light has with darkness?

Why using prayer beads ? It is to MARK REPETITIONS OF PRAYERS . But Jesus warned us concerning this in :

Matthew 6:7 KJV
But when ye pray, use not VAIN REPETITIONS , as the heathen do : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

5)
To the case of the first Muslim. What is wrong is wrong.
Adam , Abraham , Moses were never Muslims. Islam started with Muhammad. Non of them carried out the 5 pillars of faith of Islam . Only a spiritual illiterate will fall for that.

God could easily have given those ways of worship to Moses with instructions to perform ablution, Tawaf Mawa and Sarah , stone the devil etc

My advice to you is to look critically into this religion of Islam b4 it is too late for you.

Start by looking into the deeds of Muhammad and pray to your creator for guidance.

You have been avoiding these questions :
WHY BURNING OF THE FIRST EVER SET OF QURAN?
WHAT IS THE USE OF THE STAR AND CRESCENT IMAGE ON THE MOSQUES ?

Empiree:
You can say whatever you want. You are frustrated because I trashed your belief system. The first Hadith you quoted pretty much answered your concern. Take it or leave it. Yeah, pagan worshipped there at the kaaba because they changed or were misguided after Abraham had gone. So prophet Muhammad (saw) came to rectify their mistakes. They were worshiping objects but today we worship Lord of kaaba. Kaaba and Black stone themselves are material objects. In this sense they can neither benefit nor harm us. We worship Lord of kaaba not kaaba itself made of bricks. Just like you go to church and worship there. Do you worship the building made of bricks and wood?. I don't think so.

Stop stammering.
All the Mosques in the world are facing the kabaah and the black stone, bowing down to the god Allah the husband of Allat living in the kabaah. Which is pure idolatry.
Idol worshipers always face their idols and bow to it. They don't back it.
Christians don't face any church in Israel or elsewhere . God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. You can face any direction to pray to God.

Islam claimed Abraham built the kabaah . Which was a lie formulated by Muhammad .

THIS IS THE PROOF :

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 585:
Bukhari :
Narrated Abu Dhar:

I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was first built on the surface of the earth?" He said, "Al-Masjid-ul-,Haram (in Mecca)." I said, "Which was built next?" He replied "The mosque of Al-Aqsa ( in Jerusalem) ." I said, "What was the period of construction between the two?" He said, "Forty years." He added, "Wherever (you may be, and) the prayer time becomes due, perform the prayer there, for the best thing is to do so (i.e. to offer the prayers in time)."

The only temple of God in Jerusalem as at that time was Solomon's temple which was built by king Solomon .

Let us assume Abraham was the builder of the kabaah . What was the year gap between Abraham and Solomon ?
Matthew 1:2-3,16-17 KJV

Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

[17] So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Verse 17 , Abraham to King David , the father of Solomon 14 generations.
A generation is about 50 years and above , which gives nothing less than 700 years gap between Abraham and Solomon.

BUT THE HADITH SAYS FORTY YEARS . ANOTHER BLUNDER AND EVIDENCE OF FALSEHOOD IN ISLAM.

Thank God the Jews had been keeping these records Thousands of years b4 Islam came to be.

The truth is , Muhammad was a fake prophets . No wonder they took the biblical stories in the Quran to link it with the God of the Bible.
Original products are always first b4 thieves start producing the fakes, like :
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 578:
Bukhari :
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

When the Muslims arrived at Medina, they used to assemble for the prayer, and used to guess the time for it. During those days, the practice of Adhan for the prayers had not been introduced yet. Once they discussed this problem regarding the call for prayer. Some people suggested the use of a bell like the Christians, others proposed a trumpet like the horn used by the Jews, but 'Umar was the first to suggest that a man should call (the people) for the prayer; so Allah's Apostle ordered Bilal to get up and pronounce the Adhan for prayers.

Why suggesting , was allah not able to guide them again? No wonder Muhammad was formerly facing Israel and had to change to kabbah.

I hope empiree can tell us who the First Muslim was .
Was is it Adam , Abraham , some Egyptians , Moses or Muhammad?
Why was the first set of Quran burnt?

Empiree:
We can now

The Black stone in itself is not significant to our system of belief. And the hadith you posted below already answered your question

The black stone came down with Adam. It is not idol. The Black Stone was sent down by Allah to this earth from Paradise.

The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

So you can see there is no specific attachment to the stone to the point of making it object of worship.

You are confused . You think the black stone has no significance to your belief ?
How come it will GROW MOUTH and testistify in favour of those who touched it ?
Why did Muhammad kissed it and those on hajj have to do the same?
No specific attachment but this stone is attached or embedded in southeast corner of kabaah for all Muslims to bow down to, 5 times a day.

I will say it again , Islam is pagan religion in disguise. It was conceived in idolatry by the facts that many rituals performed are connected with the pagan worship that existed b4 Islam.

1...The kabaah shrine which contains the black stone was where the pagans were using for their pagan idol worship .The Muslims are still using it to worship their god as well. Why ?

2...The pagans used to walk 7 times around the kabaah , Muslims on hajj also circumambulate the kabaah 7 times.

3...The local Arab pagans used to kiss and worship the black stone , and Muslims kiss the black stone as well , claiming it is a divine meteorite that fell at Adams feet.

4... Stone throw was a wide spread custom among the pagan Arabs . This is also part of ritual when on hajj for Muslims , claiming Abraham threw stones at the devil.

5... The pagans used to tawaf between two idols called ISAF and Nails , Muslims alsoTawf between Safa and Mawah with the claim that Hagar did something like that.

6.. The idolaters call on the name Allah during these periods.
The Muslims also call on Allah .

Why all these resemblance ? Why were those people called Idol worshipers , since Muslims do what they used to do.

The worshipping of the falling stone had been existing Thousands of years b4 Islam came and adopted it.
The idol worshipers of Ephesus used to worship goddess Diana and the black stone :

Acts 19:35 KJV
And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?

7 ... What about the star and the crescent symbol placed on the topmost part of every mosque? Is that not idolatry as well? It is also known that some countries and idol worshipers worship the moon and the stars.

God warned the Israelite not to do this in :

Deuteronomy 4:19 KJV
And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Muhammad was an idol worshiper and all the Muslim unconsciously. That was why he was enjoying a satanic song, which you tried to defend with your Tagiyyah tactics.

This is not about argument , it is about where you intend to spend your eternity , heaven or hell .