₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
The fact remains that most of us were born by parents who claims they are Muslims and that automatically makes us Muslims since we are raised by them so little we know or much doesn't matter because even the religion itself counts your kids as Muslims once they joins you people in the practice and bears the Arab name so stop deceiving yourself claiming someone is not a Muslim simply because you know more than the person regarding your religion.

Wait o, do you count your Muhammad as one of the prophets of the Abrahamic God?
Come on stop it jọọ your Muhammad has nothing to do with Abraham his claim that he is even from that race is still under investigation talkless counting him as a prophet.

Ọmọ Bible prophets don't have followers that's the delusion in what the Arab guy infused in the heads of his people.
In the Bible prophets are sent to deliver a message to Israelites just as a king sends out a town crier to deliver a message and of course that doesn't make the citizens followers of the town crier nah!

Many prophets in the Bible had followers or disciples who assisted them in their prophetic ministry.

Elisha followed Elijah
Samuel had a group of prophets that he mentored (1 Samuel 10:5).
Jeremiah had supporters like Baruch who helped him record his prophecies (Jeremiah 36).
John the Baptist, considered a prophet by many Christians, had disciples who followed him before Jesus began His ministry. Matthew 9:14

Sorry another lie you get caught in.
I won't respond to the ones you follow up with.

MaxInDHouse:
You've been thoroughly deceived my guy.

I know you are born into Islam but it shouldn't make you dumb because this people often point to where Israelite prophets bow yet they don't know that it's not mandatory that God's servants should always bow to display their submission to the true God.
When God's prophets in Bible times takes a bow it's mostly when they are alone not in the midst of a multitude and as for your Allah is this your god living inside the stone in Mecca?

Nowhere God said in the Bible that people should face any direction to worship Him and that's because He doesn't live in any man-made building so when talking about bowing it has to do with what servants of God feel in their hearts not an hypocritical showy display to call the attention of onlookers.

That's why your Allah failed to secure PEACE in the midst of its worshipers unlike the Bible God who promised to ensure PEACE in the midst of His own worshipers {Isaiah 2:4; Zephaniah 3:9} Muslims are been brainwashed to worship what they don't really know {John 4:22} so there is no love for this Allah nor neighbors {Mark 12:30-31} instead anytime things that doesn't worth fighting for amongst believers come up Muslims will easily carry weapons to kill their fellow Muslims since there no real love or peace in Islam what you people have is delusion.

So when i left Islam i vow never to speak about all these nonsense but anytime i see you guys talking about Christianity or the Bible i try to find out who among you is honest hearted and sincere it's just a pity that most of you aren't even sincere with yourself yet you want to correct others about their faith.

For your information there's just one Christian group Jehovah's Witnesses that's why it's really difficult for any Muslim to figure out what is wrong with this group other than when you guys decides to remain delusional claiming you have your own religion!

All these to defend your lie when you are caught in It?

Did the prophet pray in one manner and have his companions and followers pray in another?

Prophets in the Bible took their bows in seclusion and live their followers wondering. Oh I see why the confusion as your faith is soaked in mysticism

MaxInDHouse:
Where in this verses is it written that people should bow towards a stone?

You see how you expose yourself as a liar. Even if you derogatory say Muslims bow towards a stone when the bowing is submission and towards Allah.

Where is the stone?
What is Masjid Al Haram?

MaxInDHouse:
The truth is all religions need to be taught not just read, i was a Muslim and there is nowhere in the Quran where it's written that i must bow towards a stone before God accepts my form of worship but here you are today because that's the translation given to PRAYER in the book.
So if anyone reads the Quran independently of any form of teachings can he deduce what PRAYER means according to the book without being told?

Surely you delude yourself with false claim you were a Muslim.

O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves, and worship your Lord and do good that you may succeed. Quran 22:77


Verily, We have seen the turning of your face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you; so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid Al-Haram (at Makkah) Quran 2:144

MaxInDHouse:
The problem is reading without understanding that's all!

Too lame a submission. The Quran's explanation is not far fetched as you make or try to make of your Bible

MaxInDHouse:
Just as some read your Quran and concluded that killing their neighbors is what your Allah requires of them!

Bias influenced unitary reading without considering context. It has nothing to do with someone teaching you. It is all there in one book

MaxInDHouse:
End of discussion!
So take it that the book confused you not that Abraham is a prophet because the book said so!

The same book you say needs to be taught?
Pick a stand and stick to it.

People read regular texts in books and do well without attending a taught class

MaxInDHouse:
The Bible is meant to be taught not just read otherwise the same God called Moses and Jesus God so if you're emphasizing on what my God said without the understanding then try to accept Moses and Jesus as God because my God said so.

The more you look, the less you see.

The art of confusion you say? Hidden in plain sight 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

MaxInDHouse:
He wasn't sent to tell people about it rather it was a covenant between him and his God nah!

You can get annoyed over the matter it's your cup of coffee but as regards Abraham he is not a prophet going by what prophet does!

He wasn't sent to tell people about It?
Seriously? How did people then come to know about It?

You see your reasoning? Even your God in the Bible calls him prophet so I should put that aside and believe you?

Please

MaxInDHouse:
Please quote where Abraham performed any of the aforementioned!

All these are your own preconceived thoughts since your religion told you that Abraham is a prophet and you just want to squeeze in the idea when there is nothing like that in the life of this man.
He was simply God's friend {James 2:23} and we can learn a lot through his dealings with the true God but that he performed the duties of a prophet, NO!

The act of circumcision is the will of God. This he had done all through his household, leaving Ur.

https://digitalcommons.denison.edu/religion/vol10/iss1/3/

No he would have been God's enemy to suit your whims.

MaxInDHouse:
He wasn't sent to deliver any message like the prophets so the title was just to alert Abimelech that Abraham is a special person that's all!

If you actually understand your Bible, you will see that a prophet is not solely someone who predicts future events. They are also individuals who communicate God’s will, intentions, and messages to others. This includes both forth-telling (speaking God’s truth in the present) and foretelling (predicting future events).

Abraham delivered messages of divine promises about his lineage and blessings for all nations through him; intercessory prayers for cities like Sodom; revelations concerning future events affecting his descendants; instructions for maintaining God’s covenant within his household; and insights into how he should interact with other nations.

MaxInDHouse:
All Gods are single entities except the TRINITY which has been worshiped for centuries before the Roman Catholics adopted it and called their religion Christianity.
So if Allah is one God know that Ọbàtálá, Ṣàngó, Ọ̀ṣun, Ògún, Zeus, Ra, Hermes, Jupiter and many more are also one entity as each of them stands in their respective places.
As for PROPHET only someone PROPHESYING is a prophet and i think you know what that means!

The singular gods try to copy the true God that is absolutely one. Do the Jews and Israelites of old recognise a Trinitarian God.

Abraham may not have made future predictions like many later prophets, he certainly fulfilled the role of a prophet through his direct communication with God and his intercessory prayers for others.

MaxInDHouse:
The same applies to the Qur'an, nobody can read it independently and choose to become a Muslim he or she must have come in contact with people claiming Muslims and heard one or two things from the way they translated what is written in the book and that is what religion is all about each religion needs to be inculcated into the mind of an adherent through intensive teaching or training.
But one thing is needed to be done so that we can all have a common understanding of what faith in God truly means.

One thing makes FALSE RELIGION obvious and that is how the God religionists worship in working, if we believe that our Creator made everything we are seeing then we need to ask ourselves:
Has God stopped working?
If not what is God doing presently?
How is God controlling worshipers?
What benefits are they benefitting from God?

Nobody can work so hard to put all these things together and sit back watching what was made destroyed by the creation itself nah!

Worshipers of God must stand out differently from those who aren't worshiping in the real sense.


Jesus said people will speak abusively of his real disciples {Matthew 5:11-12} so many Churchgoers don't know the difference between false prophets and those they are supposed to leave from.

There is no disparity in who Allah is or who a prophet is. There can be no prophet after prophet Muhammad pbuh. Allah is repeatedly emphasized as one entity.

How did Jesus according to your Bible tell or teach you to differentiate between prophets?

Aemmyjah:
1. Yes. Obedient and true Christians must preach from house to house as Jesus did and the Apostles. Jesus himself gave the commission and it will continue to the end

2. Mention one such person. Why would a real Christian showing others the way of salvation engage in a career or activity that will cut short the life of others? Jesus himself said his disciples should love just as Jesus himself did, willing to die on behalf of sinners

Your claim that obedient and true Christians must preach from house to house as Jesus did lacks sufficient biblical backing.
Even if spreading the gospel is a fundamental aspect of Christian faith, the specific method of preaching from house to house as a commandment or requirement does not have strong biblical support.


John 15:13; Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
Military personnel have been celebrated for their willingness to sacrifice their lives for their country and comrades. This is often seen in putting themselves in the line of fire to deter and protect.

Until there is the existence of general world peace taking up military defence will remain a core component of society.

MaxInDHouse:
Please let me know the practical application of what Jesus said there and why none of his disciples picked up weapons against anyone despite the persecution that rose against them in the first century.

Do they preach and teach from house to house in their neighborhood as Jesus commanded his disciples? Matthew 10:11-13

How many Israelites picked up weapons when they wanted to leave Egypt? Exodus 14:14

God permitted them because the scriptures said God's people must be subdued for a lengthy period of time that's why Jesus and his disciples never raised a weapon otherwise all the soldiers on this planet can't stand God's people if He permitted them to fight.


During this time Jerusalem has not been given to the gentiles to be subdued!

In Matthew 26:52, Jesus addresses a specific situation in which Peter had just used violence to defend him from those who sought to arrest him. Should Jesus have resisted arrest from the governing body and encouraged others to do same?

Exodus 14:14 serves as assurance to the Israelites during a critical moment when they felt vulnerable against their oppressors being stuck between the Egyptians and the sea? Remember they had left slavery in Egypt. Did they own anything in Egypt up to the extent of having weapons for their escape? Why didn't they use these weapons to subdue their captives and be free before their exodus?

Is it only those that go from house to house preaching the gospel that are Christians? Did the men mentioned not encourage just and good principles during their military careers?

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus spoke in parables that's what you need to know the SWORD Jesus meant there is not physical but spiritual.

God's Holy Spirit later revealed to them that the spiritual sword is the complete Bible! Ephesians 6:17

Did Jesus speak in parables so he would be misunderstood?
How do you sell your purse and cloth to buy a spiritual sword? Can you buy from the spirit with material things?

MaxInDHouse:
YES!
Whenever you see anyone in the military he or she is not a follower of the Christ who said:

“Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword" Matthew 26:52

From that moment till today whoever raises a weapon against his or her fellow human in the name of military is no longer on God's side!

I hope you don't take your scripture out of context.

Will the many strong soldiers of Christian faith like St. Augustine who believed in Just wars agree with you? George Washington of USA, Yakubu Gowon, Theophillus Danjuma, Olusegun Obasanjo, Martin Luther Agwai were Christians.

How many of the temple and Roman guards will the disciples have subdued in Matthew 26:52?

Is it not a subtle submission to superior power that has occurs at Romans 13:1 reads Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.

Was 1 Samuel 15:3:'Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys' abolished or it was done before Jesus?

MaxInDHouse:
All Muslims in the military service!
They often go to wars, fight and kill their fellow Muslims in other countries/places.


To you it's unjust but to the one who has power to bring the dead back to life it's not rather a lesson for his servant David the best and most important Israelite King of all time!

There aren't Christians in the Military service

In Islam, individuals are generally held accountable for their own actions, and Allah does not unjustly punish people for the sins of others. This principle is supported by the Quran verse:
"No bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." (Quran 6:164)

Consider that the Biblical God spared Aaron from punishment as he acted under pressure from the Israelites to make the gold calf why didn't the same principle apply to those under the rule of David?

MaxInDHouse:
So all those Muslims fighting and killing their fellow worshipers are doing it for a just cause shey?

I'm not asking you about when a community decides to kill a criminal for commiting a crime because the criminal is facing justice but when two opposing sides pick up weapons against one another so neither Exodus 22:2-3 nor Genesis 9:5-6 has anything to do with WAR rather it's about punishing a criminal!

Which Muslims fight and kill their fellow worshippers (particularly Muslims)?

MaxInDHouse:
Because it's the people that he wants to boast about so if he is killed there is no chance for him to know that he was wrong however there is going to be a resurrection of all those Killed and by then they will know what caused their death and live for holiness so as to enjoy life forever in Paradise on earth! Psalms 37:29

Isn't it more appropriate to dethrone him or afflict him directly with an ailment? Why punish the people for the sins of their King? Quite unjust in my opinion

MaxInDHouse:
Which Bible verse did you read where David conducted a census?
You guys just want validation for your Islam where you can't find it.
I told you that Satan confused David and you have quoted the verse yourself yet you're asking me again!

2 Samuel 24:1 talks about the census as well as well as 1 Chronicles 21:1 then due to error or Sin of David God's punishment results in the death of 70, 000 peoplein 2 Samuel 24:15 not David himself.

Why will the God of Israel exert punishment on people who are in obedience to their King and not the the King himself?

MaxInDHouse:
Now you're talking!

What do you mean by just cause?

Similar to Exodus 22:2-3 and Genesis 9:5-6

MaxInDHouse:
So why did Muhammad and his followers killed people using "kafri" as excuse?



Which Bible verse did you read where David conducted a census?
You guys just want validation for your Islam where you can't find it.
I told you that Satan confused David and you have quoted the verse yourself yet you're asking me again!

I don't know what event or who you refer to as 'kafir' and pardon my incomplete phrase. It's a grave sin to kill anyone without just cause in Islam.

Did you reply to me without knowing the verses in your Bible?

Islam is fine without your validation it is an affair between Muslims and Allah

MaxInDHouse:
Guy as long as there are Muslims among those carrying weapons to go and kill those who are also Muslims and all of you will still later bow towards the black stone in Mecca something is wrong somewhere that you need to figure out!



David was misled by Satan that's why Jehovah punished him by reducing the population of those he wants to brag over as supreme ruler.
Jehovah doesn't go by number even if it's just one person remaining on His side that person with Jehovah is the MAJORITY.

So David committed a blunder!

Pretty queer submission. Please point at clear reference for this. It is a grave sin to kill anyone regardless of if the person is Muslim or not. Bare in mind the deception of 'fake Muslims.

So it was punishment that caused an uncertainty as to who inspired David to conduct a census between God and Satan? Please which Bible verse explains this.

MaxInDHouse:
So if Muslims kill Muslims it due to fallibility but when others kill Muslims your people will pick up weapons to revenge!

I see you put the condition if.

The vast majority of Muslims around the world seek peace, justice, and unity within the Islamic community. The majority of Muslims seek to live in harmony with each other and the world around them disregard the political, sectarian, ethnic, and territorial disputes which appear to mask as religious.


You ignored explaining the contradiction of who asked David to conduct census.

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted really amuses me because there are Muslims in most places yet in the face of tribal and political conflicts they throw away their Quran just like Kids will do when tempted with food. So how do you expect others who don't know anything about your Allah to feel when they see Muslims fighting and killing fellow Muslims despite all what you typed in the highlighted?

The Bible was written by humans who were directed by God's Holy Spirit to help them remember what supposed to be recorded for our use !

Of course the Quran is a perfect source of ultimate guidance yet muslims who are humans are not infallible and may fall short in fully embodying the teachings of the Quran at all times. Life is one of continuous learning, self reflection and adherence in order to improve self. This is what jihad is about. Continuous striving to be better.

The books of 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles mention respectively God and Satan telling David to number Israel which is correct or is this a subtle equation of the two? Can it be overlooked as human error?

MaxInDHouse:
The Bible is historically accurate!

So if you don't trust your Quran i trust my Bible with all my heart!

You jumped to make a conclusion in error.
The Quran is indeed not a history book in the conventional sense. It is the divine revelation to serve as a guidance for all of humanity. While it contains historical events and stories of past nations, its primary purpose is to provide guidance, wisdom, and regulations for all aspects of life.

The Quran serves as a source of spiritual guidance, ethical principles, and laws for Muslims to follow. It is a timeless book that addresses the fundamental questions of existence and provides a framework for living a righteous life.

I trust it in this.

Can you state that there aren't contradictory reports in the Bible?

MaxInDHouse:
You won't welcome any explanation as long as it doesn't fit in to what your Quran says about your Allah.
So let's leave the matter!

I don't hold the view of the Quran being a full historic reference. Indeed it is not that.

MaxInDHouse:
The problem we will both have on this matter is that you don't believe in the Bible and i don't believe in the Quran so it's better we leave it at that because the Bible made it clear that all humans were living in the same place before God confused their language but since your Quran is against that there is no way we can agree.

Thanks for your time!

We should quit the discussion even though you are wrong in concluding I totally don't believe in all the Bible says.

In any case Gen 11:1-9 refers to uniformity of language but Gen 10:6-20 refers to more than one place even if close.

Another bother is Gen 11:5 which says God came down to see what they were building; does it mean God could not see without coming down?

MaxInDHouse:
The Bible says it is Babel some 220 kilometers from Ur so it's still the same geographical location.
As for Kings how did humans arrive at choosing kings?

The Bible in Genesis 10:6-20 mentions in relation to Nimrod places like Babel (Babylon), Erech, Accad, and Calneh in the land of Shinar. It further mentions that from this land, he went to Assyria and built several cities including Nineveh, Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, and Resen. The omission of Ur from the list indicates that while it was an important city in ancient times, it did not fall under Nimrod’s dominion as outlined in these verses.

Places to which idolaters fled or were exiled to in biblical times did not include Arabia. Key passages that discuss exile include 2 Kings 17:6-23, and Jeremiah 29 which details the fall of Israel to Assyria and mentions the deportation of Israelites due to their idolatrous practices and the Babylonian exile. There is no direct reference to Arabia as a place where idolaters fled.

It however seems you were trying to go somewhere with your claim that Mecca is where pagans so to speak were driven. Your bible says very much otherwise!

MaxInDHouse:
This is where you need discernment!

The land where Nimrod lived according to the Bible is Ur around modern day Turkey so if any of those who remembered where they came from wants to point to the direction he or she will point to the East and by the time our people were writing this stories Mecca is the only place where pagans (so to speak) were driven away so the historian may conclude that since something of that nature occurred in Mecca Odùduwà must have migrated from that place as he is not a worshiper of the God they worship in modern day Mecca.

But if we truly want to get to the root of the matter we need to ask ourselves:

When did humans began having kings?
What qualities should someone posses before he is to be made king?

After all Your Qur'an never told you that Adam ruled over his children as king neither did he install any of them as King over the others!

I will appreciate you reference the Bible verse which states Nimrod lived in Ur.

You may need to distinguish begin Patriarchs and Kings though there are many kings in Sumerian history before the flood of Noah.

Adam surely guided his descendants and that leads to questioning if a King guides his people

MaxInDHouse:
One funny thing here is how you believe in what humans wrote but failed to think deeply!

According to the Bible all humans living on this planet today descended from Noah and if we have to go by that then we need to ask ourselves how people back then despite their differences in choice and occupation arrived at choosing one man to rule over them as King.

Surely such a person must be a terrorist who can crush whoever stands on his way.
The same remains till today as only those with hard heart can become rulers while the timid are subjected to them, and where two or more proved to be strong then they will have to eliminate one another until there remains the last man standing.

Politics has always been like that so Lamurudu and Nimrod is the same person don't allow the writings of deceptive people to confuse you!

Is your Bible a historically accurate reference?

According to certain versions of Yoruba oral tradition, Oduduwa was a prince who fled from Mecca due to religious conflicts involving his father, Lamurudu.

What was Nimrod doing in Mecca?

I however appreciate you pointing to the right direction as it's seen that heathen trinities, found in most polytheistic religions, follow the Father-Mother-Son pattern: Osiris, Isis and Horus; Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz; Zeus, Diana, Dionysus; Jupiter, Venus and Cupid; is this where Christianity copied from even with a subtle variation to include the holy spirit?

MaxInDHouse:
Names people bore back then has meanings but since their language was confused due to their decision to go against God's will there is no way we can trace their historical background through their names.

But if we agree with the Bible then we won't have trouble figuring out what really happened back then.

Nimrod is Lamurudu according to some Yorùbá historians they never knew why his descendants like Odùduwà was highly respected as chosen ones to rule everywhere they go but according to the Bible Nimrod was a great hunter in opposition to Jehovah the highlighted means he made himself king over the people {Genesis 10:8-9} as God supposed to be the supreme being over all mankind. It was due to his political ambitions that he decreed a fence should be made all around the inhabited portion after the death of Noah and his children {Genesis 11:3-4} but God proved His sovereignty when He confused the language of all those under Nimrods control {Genesis 11:5-9} and they all left the building to scatter as their able to understand whoever speaks what they can relate with.

Nimrod was a charm man who has dealings with powerful fallen angels so it's unthinkable for anyone living back then to challenge his authority that's why all his descendants known by the people back then were allowed to rule over them since they are the descendants of their great King.

That is why Odùduwà and all his descendants were respected by all those who knew him as one of the children of Nimrod always give them the first position anywhere they are recognized.

That's what i heard from historians but you and i know that when talking about history of people their ancestors often erase some parts most especially the ones that is embarrassing to them and their children Nimrod was a worshiper of demons and God did not hide it from the descendants of Jacob that even Abraham and his ancestors too were worshipers of demons before He (God) called him out from among his people! Joshua 24:2

Interesting write up but very surprised you subscribe to it.

There is great error in likening Nimrod to Lamrudu. They beling to different cultural contexts, characterizations, theological implications, and symbolic meanings.

In many interpretations, Nimrod symbolizes humanity’s hubris while Lamrudu embodies legitimate authority derived from divine favor rather than defiance.

Nimrod is associated with Jewish culture while Lamrudu is Sumerian. The former is a hunter while the latter is a king

DOptical:
Will you keep quiet with your gibberish?

I told you that the Jewish history had nothing to do with Mohammad, considering he's not Jacob's descendant to begin with and then you started talking about how Ishmael was Isaac's brother blah blah blah hence I had to spell it out to you that only Jacob and Jacob's descendants are the Jewish (Yehudah)! Not Ishmaell! I can't even be surprised by your lack of comprehension. Same way you couldn't comprehend simple "first before anything else"..

You're talking about the colonialists as if Arabs weren't worse than the colonialists. Arabs enslaved and murdered North Africans back then while stealing Northern African territory! In fact, these Arab terrorists had even wanted to replicate similar acts to the Europeans in Europe but were dealt with by the European who pummelled the Arab terrorists in Europe. So keep your mouth shut because Arabs were worse than the colonialists.

And I repeat, it was already stated that Ishmael would be a terrorist. It was emphasized that Ishmael would be "fighting with everyone" like a useless criminal idiot and that's exactly what Ishmael's descendants such as Mohammad who's a Pedophilic terrorist. I have told you already that all the rubbish which Mohammad was championing is highly contrary to Yoruba cultural values!

Only a fool would even think Nimrod/Lamurudu was the father of Oduduwa. From where to where? In fact, It was even one northerner who started writing such rubbish narrative to begin with.

Oduduwa is a Yoruba name to begin with! Or you dey craze?

I have told you already that Oduduwa's origin is coded in Ifa Corpus. He's a Yoruba man from Oke Ora. In fact, his relative was Oranfe, another Yoruba man from Oke Ora.

Oduduwa who's a Yoruba man from Oke Ora was chosen by Ifa to become king of Ife after Obatala's group to depict Yoruba's origin founded on the fundamental of Obatala which represent light whose vessel is Oduduwa, just as the Oduduwa name depicts it thus, ensuring Yoruba always remember this origin whenever the Yoruba remember their ancestors in Ife📌 Therefore, every Oduduwa (Yoruba) as a vessel must embody Obatala which represents "light" in the sense of righteousness, intelligence and creative works.

Do you not see the idiocy in your logic?

Did God even in your Bible not bless Ishmael (Gen. 17:20) and his descendants due to Abraham's prayer?

Perhaps the disagreement with Ishmael and his descendants stems from the rejection of the truth by others? Does Jeremiah 7:26-28 (in particular) not state this about the Jews?

Before your next outburst investigate the impact of Arabic Language on Nigerian Languages: A Case Study of Yoruba Language.

Is the code of Ifa Corpus not discernable or it's another mystery like the trinity?