₦airaland Forum

[quote author=bk/babe97 link=topic=445416.msg6062552#msg6062552 date=1274299717]If it pissed u off it was sarcasm!!! If it upset u ,clearly, it was funny!!! I'm still laughing[/quote]But wait, there's a bigger joke.  . . . . . . . . . . . . yourself! 

Kobojunkie:
I see you are not even willing to debate but looking to insult yourself. Don't worry, @Onlytruth already tried that tactic and it did not work. Certainly would not work for you.

Nope, no clue of whatever your saying. Try deviating in a less obvious way.

I was trying to figure out whether you feel it's a bad idea to renovate the international airports to international standards instead of tedious and crippling stopovers.

Kobojunkie:
I will look up the flight to China you have up there.

Why didn't you before you posted this?

Kobojunkie:
By the way, can I also fly directly from Dover Delaware to China?

Not unless you've designed an aircraft capable of a cheap super long haul from one face of our planet to the next. I've failed to grasp the connection to the issue at hand.

Kobojunkie:
When you get around to reading up on what you missed so you can better make your points, whatever they are, let me know.

I've read, now what?

Katsumoto:
I am not sure I get this argument about airports. There are three International airports in the East; more than any other region.
Ezeagu
Are you arguing for an additional airport in the East OR for the eastern Airports to be refurbished/upgraded? The choice of flights at an airport are the result of two questions
1. Does the Airport have the infrastructure and facilities to accommodate international flights? If the airports in the east lack the infrastructure, then I support your argument.But we know that international flights land at PH, Calabar.

Yeah, I'm talking about the renovation of the Akanu Ibiam International Airport which is currently a concrete building with a small runway. Calabar can be refurbished if needed, but my focus is on 'feeding' Onitsha and Enugu, which Port Harcourt also does not benefit. There are cities in developed countries alone that have more international airports than the east now, whether in the city itself or adjacent to it.

Katsumoto:
2. Economic viability - If the infrastructure is there, then the determining factor is demand for flights. Only easterners can increase demand. If demand increases for flights to the East, then airlines will fly more routes to the East. But I suspect that airlines may not want to cannibalize existing routes. Airlines may not want to fly multiple cities in a country if the demand is not high enough. For instance, If 1000 fly directly from london to Lagos and Abuja each week. If they decide to fly to Enugu as well, then they have increased costs without necessarily increasing revenue. They can however drop one of the other major routes (Lagos or Abuja) if there are more people bent on flying to Enugu but that is dependent on the Eastern governments providing other amenities such as Safety, good hotels for airline staff, access to parts and labour to fix airplanes, etc.

Akanu Ibiam International would have no problem with meeting demands, if anything it may be overloaded. These airline companies don't know about these problems, and if they do it doesn't benefit them anyhow because they're still getting the benefits from easterners flying to Lagos and Abuja. The traffic to these places will be reduced if there is a renovated AI Int. Airport.

Kobojunkie:
Funny, I didn’t find a single NON-Stop flight EITHER way, using both Travelocity, Orbitz or even Air China Website. Can you please inform me of the exact flight number I should probably be searching for here?

There's clearly an Air China Flight 984 leaving on Fri, May 21 which is nonstop. End this here.

Kobojunkie:
Arrghh!!!! And again the dishonest debating kicks in. So, now the model is WRONG? Brilliant!

Please explain the sarcasm, is Calabar in Igboland? What are we discussing here? You were wrong, try and learn something instead of evading facts.

Kobojunkie:
Disassociated yourself from whatever PREVIOUS conversation I was having, yet you feel right in challenging my response which was made in the context of the said PREVIOUS conversation? WOW!!

Off topic nonsense. Address your fallacies, don't be a coward. Does Onitsha not deserve a nearby airport, are the airports you listed international standard and do they receive direct flights (not 3-4 stops) from the outside.

[quote author=bk/babe97 link=topic=445416.msg6062364#msg6062364 date=1274296733]After reading this post ova and ova again, I kinda relate to what the Ibos on here are biyytching about cus we Brooklynites are facing the same marginalization here in the so-called bastion of democracy. How come we aint got no airport in BK, huh?!?!? Why we gotta go all the way to JFK  or La Guardia to catch a plane? We aint even got a landing strip for a freakn cessna, to talk less of an International airport! This is b.s and I think I support my Ibo brothers in their plans to secede!!! Why cant I hop on a plane in Atl and have it drop me off right in front my crib, huh? What is up wit that? Oh man, I'm boiling wit Biafran rage right now. . . .

P.S: Maybe next time yall shouldnt forment troubles yall cant finish (i.e handing ova civilian govts to the military, coups, wars ect - - - they affect future generations. Nobody will trust u! Your wise Ojukwu aint see that?); then the victors wont be on some "Hey, u think if we allow these folks to have standard airports, u think they wont start thinking of importing arms and ammunitions for round two of the civil war?"  Ask the South how long it took them when they decided to split from the Union . j/k, no need to pull out the guns folks![/quote]What can someone actual say to a sad person like this, how would someone redeem a childlike mind? This person actually thins they have sense to be funny and this is actually supposed to be an attempt at sarcasm. . . .

Kobojunkie:
Please tell me how I can get a direct flight from Los Angeles to <<insert European or Asian country here>>, I would be happy if you could, honestly.

Consult Travelocity and they'll direct you to a non-stop flight with Air China from LAX to Beijing. By the way what was your point?

Kobojunkie:
Again, People in the Eastern parts of Nigerian are generally referred to as Ibos. People from the western states in Nigeria are generally referred to as Yorubas and people from the Northern states are generally referred to as Hausas. Unless you are going rewrite all of our history and knowledge right here and now, I suggest you get over yourself!

It worries me that someone would support follow a wrong model than admit that their wrong, again this is the person arguing for no reason against an international airport for a commercial hub of a country. Sometimes you have to take your own advise.

Kobojunkie:
But you made absolutely no point in this. You jumped in the middle /end of a conversation without thinking to take time to understand where the conversation came from or where it went.  And you are convinced I am the one to make things clear for you? Please go back, read where the EXTERNAL INFLUENCES came in, and then come back and make whatever point it is you are trying to make.

Than you! I didn't make that point. Walking in the middle/end of a conversation you say? Wait, when did you enter this thread and when did I? I've disassociated myself from whatever previous conversation you were having and challenged you on a section of your points with which you were trying to insinuate Akanu Ibiam Airport is 'good enough' for the east. If you're secure in your stuff you would address that instead of pointing at what someone else said, or is this not an open forum?

Kobojunkie:
There are airports, all of them currently functioning, and being used daily by individuals and business both in the area and abroad.  But your Issue is that they have not been renovated/maintained/painted the very specific color you need them to be painted yet? Do the few who continue to use these facilities have EIGHT heads? Are they definitely non-ibos because they use the same facilities which you claim is in the way of your personal development?

Please tell me how I can get a direct flight from <<insert Western country>> to Akanu Ibiam, I would be very happy if you could, honestly.

Kobojunkie:
By the way, I love the way you folks like to move the mark. When you refer to yoruba's do you do the same? For your knowledge, all EASTERNERS are generally known as IBOs, same way all Westerners are generally referred to as Yorubas and all Northerners are generally referred to as Hausas.

When referring to the Yoruba you don't mention Benin city, just like when you're referring to the Igbo you don't reference Calabar, you made an error. Anyway this is not important in this instant, and besides it was a small point to note for anyone who starts to actually believe Calabar is in Igboland.

Kobojunkie:
I am not your problem, apparently, the reasoning on this continues to clash with reality. So there is no need to start thinking I am part of your problem there. I am not sure why you continue to hack at yourselves still to make  no reasonable point to prove your claim that the hinderances to development in all of Iboland has anything to do with EXTERNAL factors.

Where are you picking up external influences, I'm confused, what has this got to do with my point that an International Airport is needed to serve the major commercial city of Onitsha and local cities? I'd like that quote from my post where I mention anywhere else in Nigeria apart from the 'East' bold and underlined please. My post has nothing to do with your crusade.

Kobojunkie:
ROFLMAO!!! Classic! Who said you had to be Yoruba to be act like a typical Agbero? ROFLMAO!!

Again, what lie has been told? Aren’t there Airport, international Airports in the Eastern block of the country? Well, let us see  . . .

• Margaret Ekpo International  in Calabar
• Port Harcourt International  in PortHarcourt
• Akanu Ibiam International in Enugu
• Akwa Ibom international

I know of at least two functioning international airports, not too far from Tinapa by the way. Portharcourt, Margaret Ekpo and Akwa Ibom are no where close to capacity when it comes to use so I am not sure where you get your claim that these airports are NOT ENOUGH.

Sam Mbakwe Airport  is an example of one of the underused airports in the area. Asaba, I believe is getting one soon and, I also believe I  read somewhere that Anambra will be getting one too. So, what idiotic lies are you referring to? 

Let me guess, it is too easy to claim every truth that does not agree with your mentality there is a lie? Lol

Why can't I land diirectly in China, or Japan from America? Why do Americans have to deal with 3 to 4 stopovers on their way to places like Russia, Japan, or even China? ROFLMAO~!!

Is it a must that you are obnoxious? What is your argument about, that commercial hubs like Onitsha should not have working nearby International Airports? Are you aware that non of the airports that you have listed have never been upgraded/maintained/renovated to serve as a working International Airports? What solid stance do you have that you believe you can be so arrogant?

The fact that a supposed Nigerian states that Calabar is in Igboland or that Goodluck Jonathan is Igbo should already indicate the persons knowledge, or lack of in the topic they think they know. Shameless.

@ All. An airport is needed in the East. Port Harcourt is not good enough, Akanu Ibiam International Airport should be upgraded. Again, saying this the people who come from there don't seem to care enough to make a move so who will care? That's their business. My conclusion for this post is that if the Igbo people really want their land developed they will develop it, whether it is by pressure on the government or to do things they can do themselves, until then these discussions are useless and redundant.

dayokanu:
I liked hw posters on this thread deflected what could have been a tribal warfare in the making to some interesting discussion on culture and history

That's only because the Igbo people started having a meeting.

udezue:
many of us find it hard to believe that in 2010 a young  Igbo is so rigid and into his tribal identity.

Not targeting anyone in particular but many Igbo kids out of Igboland are confused. Either they aren't bothered about their identity (if they even know what 'Igbo' is) or they are really fanatic about it. There's also the rare case of people who have a grudge with their father (if they have one) and then take it out on all their people. . . . .

My experience is that kids living in or have lived in Igboland have a better 'balanced' attitude. This clannish attitude is gradually fading out with the younger generation, although there's still regional identity, that is emphasis on 'I am an Igbo of Owerre' even if you're from Illah, instead of 'I am an Owerre Igbo' even if you've never seen Owerre, e.g Jay jay Okocha is an Igbo from Enugu even though his family is actually 'Anioma'. The biggest hurdle for Igbo people is the Anambra versus everyone else problem. After this it will be a full fledged 5 star (well soon) unified nation.

Linking back the general theme of the thread, it is the lack of acknowledgment of each other that has held the Igbo back, not the lack of a king. As someone had suggested, I think the parliament idea was the best option for leadership. Still this does not mean people shouldn't concentrate on bettering their own community. Regional identity may change but will never go away.

The fact of the matter remains that all this talk is unnecessary if all of you successful people are going to ignore your villages for Abuja and Lagos, that is if you'll ever go back to Nigeria at all. I'm not saying don't live in those places or you must live in the village, but if you don't do your best to make some kind of mark on your place what's the point of all this talk?

ChinenyeN:
UcheUwadi_ the idea of a unified language only sounds agreeable when restricted to just inter-regional means of communication (at least, that's my opinion).

One of two things is inevitable: The Igbo language dies off or the Igbo language will mix and dialects will die.

Katsumoto:
I am sorry but you have history mixed up. There was no king in Ilorin. Ilorin was an outpost of the Oyo empire. Afonja was the Aare-Onakakanfo (General of the Oyo empire army) and was stationed at Ilorin because he was too powerful to be stationed at Oyo (just like Roman generals were stationed in Spain, turkey but rarely allowed into Rome). In 1817, Afonja sent an empty calabash to Alaafin Aole signalling that he was no subject to his authority. The Alaafin commits suicide. Afonja then invites Alimi (a fulani muslim scholar) from Kuwo (a Yoruba town) to Ilorin for the purpose of getting charms from him. Alimi dies in 1823 and his leading follower Abdusalam becomes Afonja's right hand man but betrays Afonja by inviting the the caliphate flag from Sokoto.

Also the hausa were defeated by the fulani and several hausa emirs pledged loyalty to the fulani sultan in sokoto.

Okay, but I think you know what I meant? My stance still stands that a king is not needed.

Katsumoto:
This does not make sense. A king can easily defend his people or sell them out depending on the intentions of the king, the love for his people, the resources at his disposal, and his military abilities. On the otherhand, a loose and uncoordinated people are always conquered; case in point China. China was conquered several times by the mongolians and japanese which both had smaller armies. The mongolians themselves fought many meaningless wars until they were united by Ghengis Khan. Also read about how the Zulu under Cetshwayo delivered the heaviest defeat ever suffered by a modern army against a primitive army at the Battle of Isandlwana in 1879.

In a modern context, I don't think anyone will be invading anyone, so there still isn't anyneed for a king now. The biggest threat is the selling out situation which is the most likely situation in today's time; that just pushes me further away from supporting any king.

Going back in history for context, the USA never had kings and they successfully pushed out the British Empire.

Katsumoto:
You miss the point completely. The reason why the Jihadists couldn't take Ilorin was because Ilorin an outpost of the Oyo empire. Without the influence of the Oyo empire, Ilorin could possibly have been taken by force by the bigger rampaging fulani jihadists.

The king 'imported' Muslim slaves didn't he? He helped push his enemies into his kingdom, and he slipt of his thrown, which is what a king should never do, but then again he's a king and can do what he like, which reminds me of my stance on kingship. . . . . There are still people up there (Kaduna etc.) who aren't Muslims, they didn't necessarily have kings but they managed to guard themselves till today. The Illorin Kings decision was bad and shows what happens when you have one man in complete control.

Katsumoto:
It was not the error of a king that led to fulani influence; it was more the betrayal of Alaafin Aole by Afonja and Afonja's betrayal by a muslim scholar called Abdulsalam (Abdusalam was the heir to Alimi, who Afonja had invited to Ilorin after rejecting the Alaafin's authority).

Without a central king the Fulani influence would not have swooped over the people so easily.

Katsumoto:
When the British came to Nigeria, the Alaafin and the Ooni were not tussling for anything. The British had to use different methods to usurp the authority of the various Yoruba kings; Dosumu (deception), Awujale, (Battle at Imagbon), Alake (Religion).

This is exactly my point, it's easier to manipulate a people when they are invested in one entity, e.g the Ashanti golden stool.

Katsumoto:
Care to elucidate further on the text in bold.
Did it occur to you that the reason the British were able to subdue the Nigerian territory was because there was no unifying force in existence. Also, you argue that with a King, it would have been easier for the British to subdue the Igbo. They simply moved from village to village conquering. But I argue that with a King, it would have been more difficult for the British to subdue the Igbo. The Bini's had a King (OBA OVONRAMWEN NOGBAISI) and still fought gallantly.

My post is neither for or against a King today.

To put it roughly, The Sultan of Sokoto was/is a British puppet and the Ooni and Alaafin are busy tussling over the title of 'King of the Yoruba', what strides have they made for the unity of their nation? was it not the error of a Yoruba king in the 18th/19th century that led to the Fulani influence in what is now Kwara?

The British conquered by trade, ideology and religion. Yes, a unifying force would have ensured the protection of the area now known as Nigeria to colonialists, but a unifying force does not mean a king.

006:
The US is a different scenario because, apart from the Native Americans, the rest are immigrants from so many countries and ethnicities. Most countries we have today had kings in the past and some still do but with lesser powers. From Japan to Europe, they evolved with that system independently.

The truth is that no one knows what the Igbo nations would have become if the British didn’t come. Some were expanding, some developed kings and central governments like Nnewi and Aro. But let us not link having a king to decay in individualism. That trait is inherent in every Igbo man, every man has a voice and that voice must be heard but we still believed in democracy where general consensus rules.

Kingship is no longer fashionable these days but it is a stage in a nation’s development that we skipped because of interference from the Europeans. It might be the reason why sometimes we seem disorganized. I’ll put it to you that we need a leader; it’s evident how we cherish Ojukwu though he is not formerly crowned. We cannot know how good it will taste until we try it.

Nnewi, Nri, Aro etc Eze's are priests, not emperors like in the case of Europe and Japan. You suggested a parliament, I think that would be the best thing.

006:
An interesting discussion is going on here.

I’ve always believed in “One Igbo” nation. For those that said that Kingship can’t work in Igboland, I wonder how many towns that have gotten rid of their kings (formerly Warrant Chiefs). Ezes, Igwes, Obis, etc have come to stay and will never go away. Take a look at our movies, it now seems like we’ve had Igwes from time immemorial. The truth is that this new trend, kingship, is evolving in Igboland.

We’ve never tasted a more central king, but I’ll guarantee you that once that pragmatic move has been made, it will never go away; and that’s when, I believe, Igbos as a people will be finally evolved. (I equally believe that if the British had not intervened, we would eventually evolve as a nation with a leadership, remember some Igbo tribes were expanding and becoming more organized centrally).

This kingship is necessary when we have so many Igbo states as we do today. A better alternative is to have just one central democratically elected leadership for all Igbo nations and have one parliament with representation from all Igbo nations.

Igbo decentralisation was the biggest problem for colonialists, if there was a king then it would have been easier to subdue all the Igbo groups and the lack of this centralised authority frustrated the British. I don't believe having a king evolves a nation and I think it would cause a big mess anyway going by the examples of the leaders of the other 'big 2' in Nigeria.

The British that you are referencing are even questioning the need for the Queen; she knows that once her son becomes king the British royal families old days are done.

Talking about evolution are you aware that the USA vehemently opposed monarchy? I would advise you to go and research why before proposing a king for Igbo people.

There's no point of this discussion anyway because no relevant Igbo person in the public eye would support this, they don't even support one Igbo language.

The parliament idea is better.

Onlytruth:
Today, a British Prime Minister is more powerful than the Queen. So let's get that part straight.

Well officially, and even then she can declare war on whichever country she wants because she's the head of armed forces and the prime minister has to ask her permission for anything war-related, but I understand what you mean.

Abagworo:
why cant they try that with orji kalu?

Try what with Orji Kalu?

[quote author=#Afanna link=topic=336779.msg5994120#msg5994120 date=1272927946][/quote]*Jona, *Jona.

Onlytruth:
From the google shots, it shows that the city is WELL PLANNED. All it needs now is fixing the roads and the buildings, it'll just transform into a beautiful city. Abia state can do this. Just throw Orji and his team out next year.

The thing needs a lot more than that. It needs to be evacuated, decimated and then rebuilt. That city looks like a big rusty overflowing dumpster. I wouldn't be surprised if a new strain of a deadly virus comes from there.

yemipretty:
France is a country, Germany is a country, italy is a country. same as all the examples mentioned by the poster. Africa is a continent.

How does that translate to African countries: Nigeria: English, Angola: Portuguese, Ghana: English.

fosbiggy:
I am really mad at some responses that i have seen here. Very disappointing. It is a biased view with so much prejudice in their hearts. Can anyone tell me anywhere in Nigeria that looks the least like Newyork. Why is Benin City singled out for such condemnation? I can bet that alot of you have never been to Benin City at all. Benin City has suffered decay and neglect just like everyother other city has in Nigeria over time, which is the direct result of bad leadership and administration in Nigeria.Benin City is the only place that tolerates all. Its the only place in Nigeria you can go to as a stranger and they will allow you use their toilets without asking you to pay a dime.By the way , why is Aba  and onitsha so dirty? why do gutters pass the middle of people's houses in Lagos.Why is the road from Uniport to Rumuokoro so bushy and forest like. The average yoruba man, Igboman , hausaman expects the next person to come from their tribe, why is it so? This is evident from the fact that when you approach them they speak their language first  and cannot communicate fluently, as we have now-contributos to this topic. Benin City is the land for all. The Yorubas are Idol worshippers we all know that. Whatever they call any idol in Benin  is found in yoruba. The Igbos are hypocrites. go to church  and continue in idolatry so far you are not caught. they are ritualists, little wonder, most of their young  with so much money will die very young.
Its painful that the paster of the thread does not have a very good knowledge of what is happening in Nigeria. If there are things you miss about Benin City, why not say it, instead of saying things you do not know.Thank God for Adams. you people will soon come to the realisation that the problem with benin City afterall is just  not peculiar.its that of administrative ineptitude which has held sway for some time now in this country.When you bend down to look at other people's buttocks, more people are looking at yours. So be wise all.
At poster , remove the topic

This thread is actually a compliment to Benin city because it means people have a greater expectation for the city. It wasn't meant to bash Benin, there are many compliments about Benin's history here, perhaps you used this as an excuse to insult Igbo and Yoruba people? The thread was moving along without any arguments, I knew I shouldn't have spoken so soon.

ChinenyeN:
I don't believe we are one people with one identity.

That is a very loose statement. An identity is what you are, an Ngwa female Australian citizen probably does not have the exact same identity as you. A Cherokee identifies with the Cherokee nation, that does not mean he is not native American. Maybe you can explain what you mean by 'one people' bearing in mind that an Ngwa person will say they're Igbo first before Ngwa (if at all) in a foreign land and/or to foreign people. I think this is where the train terminates; the thread is dead now, I think.

ChinenyeN:
I seriously don't believe in a one and indivisible Igbo identity.

What does that actually mean?

Well done guys. This was a successful nairaland thread (of which there a few). Very informative and intellectual, plus no arguments (well, let me not talk so fast).

[quote author=bk/babe97 link=topic=421192.msg5992155#msg5992155 date=1272905116]Trust an ibo man to always have an explanation for everything. yeAh, Just like yall Kidnapping aint a crime, but actually is a "forced vacation" . . . . without the vacationer's consent!!!![/quote]A good irritant is an intelligent irritant. You have no knowledge of your target, therefore you are ignored and seen as a nuisance, a much lesser status. You would be impressive if you could at least string a few descent sentences together. It's not hard to offend Igbo people, but even at that you have failed. Make another fake account and try again.

KnowAll:
[size=14pt]It is good,  finally,  the Sub-consioness of the Beroms has come out to the foreshore, out of the yoke of the Hausa / Fulani Haegemony. Today the world is aware there is a tribe in central Nigeria called Beroms. Even gaff prone Gaddaffi would have being educated by his aides that the transgressions in the middlebelt was a fight put off for another day due to the interjections and interuptions of colonialism. I would urge the Ikwerre's to resist the un-necessary over-bearingness and lordship from the expansionist Igbos from the North especially now that everyone has her own little pokey State. [/size]

Your comment about the Ikwerre is unnecessary and tacky at least. Your spitefulness draws away from any of the intelligence and creativity that you can add to this forum. Ikwerre people never asked for your opinion, if anything your enthusiasm seems sinister and only an Igbo with Atlantic water in the brain (at least) would take your advice. I hope you go on to positive things.

ChinenyeN:
Regarding the language discussion, linguists actually have yet to come to an agreement on that. There is actually a divide as to whether or not to consider Igbo as one language or a cluster of languages. As for "Ngwa language" and those exceptions (definitely much less than 1/4 of the Igbo population), I would have to disagree. They aren't part of Ngwa language. They don't speak Ngwa; just something similar and intelligible (we all largely share the same progenitors). We recognize our speech forms as being closely related, but we do not see each other as speaking "the same way", in the general sense. So, we recognize our speech forms as separate languages.

Regarding your comments about states. . election, diplomats, and a military are not necessarily requirements of a state, but I see what you're getting at. The actual requirements of a state though, are a centralized territorial political system with administrative and judicial institutions, as well as separation in wealth and status, corresponding with some distribution of authority and influence. How that is set up though is largely irrelevant, just as long as the set-up is there. We Ngwa did/do though, have a cult-like, pan-Ngwa military and policing institution, now largely defunct (to the best of my knowledge).  

Regarding contrasting group consciousnesses, I feel that you and I are basically saying the same thing.

Regarding self-identification, such is necessary for the formation of a group consciousness/identity, or do you believe otherwise?

Answering your question about my reaction to someone insulting Igbo, it would honestly depend on how/where the insult is targeted. I can't really give a blanket answer on that one.

Regarding your foreign/non-indigenous statement, your comparison would make much more sense (at least, to me) if said people did not comprise of one political body. For example, your North and South Korea comparison makes sense, but it actually doesn't help your stance, because it reflects the situation in Igboland (albeit, to a lesser degree), and if nothing else, that comparison actually supports what I've been saying about our cultural, political, and consciousness fragmentation, and how we continually aid in perpetuating our respective group consciousnesses.

Look, Ezeagu, I really would prefer to not argue debate with you, of all people. So I just want you to understand that all this that I have been saying is simply my understanding and interpretation of the reality of our situation (how it was, is, and has been). I'm only trying to exhibit (at least, based off my interpretation and understanding) a realistic outlook on this Igbo "situation". I'm not going to sugarcoat anything I say, and I'm not here to deny Igbo (as I've stated severally). I only hope that you, unlike some others here, would understand this.

No problem ChineyeN, my problem is not even with state creation to be honest but with some of the arguments you put forth in its support. I think emphasizing a groups differences, especially in such a 'hot' environment like Africa, is 'political suicide'. An Ngwa state isn't completely out of the question, but basing the need for it on the insinuation that Ngwa is a whole new ethnic group (or anything that even sounds something like that) will only confuse people, especially young people; this can be seen in many areas of 'Igboland'. The Igbo in Nigeria do not have any form of authority or power that is enough to be lenient with serious political issues like a 'united front'. I understand that  you see yourself as Ngwa first, believe me you're not the only one who identifies with their community first, but this should not compromise the power of garrisoning. I think I can confidently say that even in the Ngwa group people identify with their villages before Ngwa; I know I'm right because villages have wars. My point is that you should see Ngwa and 'Igboness' how you would see Ngwa villages and 'Ngwaness'.

This all I have written may not be your intent, but I'm just cautioning you a little bit that divisions can go on past clans and tribes (or states, I don't know) and can hit a crises where everyman is for themselves, you know what that means don't you. . . . . . . Anarchy. That's all I have to say.

ChinenyeN:
For that very reason, linguist would classify our lects as separate languages, because language is about being able to [inherently] communicate.

Are you saying linguists haven't already analized Igbo? You state the fact that language is about "being able to inherently communicate" to show how Ngwa is a different language but a few posts away you gave an excpetion to 1/4 of the Igbo communities, are they also part of the 'Ngwa language' if they can 'inherently understand this language'?

ChinenyeN:
For that very reason, linguist would classify our lects as separate languages, because language is about being able to [inherently] communicate.
You are only partially correct, in that we are somewhat traders, but you're wrong in stating that we are a band of villages. We Ngwa are more than just a mere band of villages. Unlike other typical Igbo groups, pre-colonial Ngwa had already developed into a nation-state with Ngwa-Ukwu as its capital. A hierarchical system of authority, from the village-group level to the Ezeala Ngwa in Ngwa-Ukwu, was established. We have an ancient constitution, developed in Ngwa-Ukwu that affirms both the hierarchical authority as well as laws governing the entire Ngwa body. "Congressional Meetings" were held annually in Ngwa-Ukwu (Ekelafo), where the constitution was discussed. Communal worship, and rites of Ala-Ngwa were held and performed annually at Ngwa-Ukwu (Okpu Ala-Ngwa). After the "congressional meetings", the Ofo holding representatives returned and reaffirmed the constitution in their village-groups as well as perform the same communal worship and rites of Ala-Ngwa, which were performed in Ngwa-Ukwu, during the annual meeting. Now, a state is defined by its institutions which govern its sovereign and definite territory. Ala Ngwa has defined borders. It has institutions that govern the whole territory. It is sovereign (Nri, for example, has no authority in Ngwa). Ngwa truly exhibits all the characteristics of a state.

Ngwa, like every other Igbo group obviously had a set of 'laws of the land', every community had this which is why the Igbo are described as 'republican' in the first place. By "Congressional Meeting" I guess you mean village elders meeting? You mean if someone makes a few villages, agrees to some laws and holds meetings once in a while they should be considered a state? Ala-Ngwa may now have definite borders, but I don't believe this would be the case in the 19th century because African villages in general usually were not bordered like in the case of European nations. Most Igbo communities did not have that type of development. The only way you will convince me that Ngwa was a state is by showing me an example appointed government in Ngwa with definite elected leaders (who are not just village elders), a military, police and diplomats.

ChinenyeN:
Regarding ethnicity and ethnic identity, the characteristics of an ethnic group are as such:
1) They recognize their own group consciousness in contrast to the group consciousness of others.
---- Being honest, we Igbo STILL exhibit cultural, political, and consciousness fragmentation. Speaking realistically, we do not bear one consciousness. Our consciousnesses are recognized in contrast to that of each others'

Could you give me an example of an ethnic group/nation or tribe who's consciousness is not measured on how different they are from everyone else? Are you telling me European countries (that largely have dominant cultures) did not have civil wars?

ChinenyeN:
2) Self-identification with respective group consciousnesses.
--- We STILL, to this day, generally self-identify with our respective consciousness, and not really to the larger Igbo identity (as in, most Igbo put their respective consciousnesses first).

Oh, come on now, every peoples of every nation on earth identifies with their village/clan/tribe/town/city/province/geographical area/historical area/coast/latitude/longitude before they do with the whole nation, otherwise we would not have names like Parisienne, Londoner, Scouse or phrases like "West coast till I die" or songs like "Empire state of mind".

And don't tell me if an outsider insults 'Igbo' people that you will not feel insulted.

ChinenyeN:
4) Group consciousness is culturally perpetuated
--- Any and all social institutions, such as the lect, territory, culture, religious practices, how they govern themselves (taken from the definition presented by Ezeagu) can be used as a means of increasing, and passing on group consciousness from generation to generation. Speaking realistically, we ourselves perpetuate our respective group's consciousness as well as those of other. Because of our decentralized nature, we do not see each other as the same. Seriously, perform the experiment. Any [wo]man of non-Ngwa extraction, staying within Ngwa, will be considered as foreign and non-indigenous, by the Ngwa. Likewise, any [wo]man of non-Oru extraction, staying within Oru, would be considered as foreign and non-indigenous, by the Oru. Any [wo]man of non-Izii extraction, staying within Izii, is considered as foreign and non-indigenous. Any [wo]man of non-Nri extraction, staying within Nri, is considered as foreign and non-indigenous, by the Nri (or am I wrong, 006?). The list goes on. Realistically speak, we Igbo cannot even travel within Igboland as simply "Igbo". We are considered as foreigners outside of our respective territories. No sense of oneness.

Any Cockney, staying in Yorkshire, will be considered as foreign and non-indigenous, by the Yorkies. Any Neapolitan, staying in Geneva, will be considered as foreign and non-indigenous, by the Genevois. Are you aware of the North South divide in countries like England, Italy and Korea?

The only thing that would suit Igboland (I don't know about other nations) is a sort of system like the shires of England. Igbo people cannot do the one man ruling thing, it's not in their nature and we can see the problem it is causing in this thread alone.

SEFAGO:
Yoruba means "then/when" in Yoruba. The igbo people call yorubas Yoruba people because when yoruba people are speaking they use the word "Yoruba" every single second like lol. he

Hmm, like the Igbo 'ngbe'. . . . . . . . . . .

hackney:
Does anyone really care who comes from where?

Ask the Berom.

ChinenyeN:
Ezeagu, them traveling long distances doesn't prove anything. People traveled from northern Igbo areas to Edo-speaking areas to trade. So I guess they saw each other as the same?

Ngwa fits that definition of ethnicity that you gave. We Ngwa have peculiar culture in Igboland. Of course, in the broad sense, we are similar to other Igbo groups, but we have distinct cultural and religious practices that are NOT THE SAME as the rest of Igbo. Language wise, linguist say that two speakers are speaking the same language if they can inherently communicate without having to learn each other's mode of speech (that is what language is. . . the ability to inherently communicate). Ngwa cannot inherently communicate with THE REST OF IGBO, save for a few border Umuahia and Mbaise communities, Ndoki (of which, the larger body of its villages trace themselves to Ngwa), and generally Asa (who are either Ngwa or Etche) and Etche (who surprisingly enough claim so share progenitors with Ngwa). Origin-wise, Ngwa-Ukwu is the birthplace of Ngwa identity. Ngwa-Ukwu is our "foundation capital". Our progenitors may have come from Owere, but the moment they crossed the Imo is the moment that they forged Ngwa identity, in Ngwa-Ukwu. Ngwa identity was not forged in Owere. So our origin is Ngwa-Ukwu. We are not a tribe. Tribes don't develop states.

And where did I say that Igbo is not an identity?

Andre, true, my autonomous village is where I hail. It is my town, but I (we Ngwa) recognize, both now and in precolonial times, a larger Ngwa consciousness.

Which state did Ngwa have? Ngwa is a band of villages and a league of traders just like any other Igbo tribe out there, or maybe I'm wrong, No? You implied that the Ngwa dialect is a different language altogether because no other Igbo speakers can understand it, then you listed four key Igbo communities that understand it. Ngwa is a dialect and shares practically all the same words with Igbo only with a few letters changed.

It's fine having an Ngwa identity, but that should not come in the way of a much older and important establishment. The Ngwa consciousness has been there but the slaves that left Igbo lands hundred or so years ago did not classify themselves as 'Ngwa' because they knew the power in numbers.

ChinenyeN:
That isn't enough to determine identity. Regardless of the progenitor, we did not begin to develop a single group conscience until post-colonial era. That conscience is key to defining ethnic groups. The Igbo are still, to this day, not an ethnic group. That larger body conscience has yet to fully take root. Most Igbo still see themselves as members of their respective group conscience, while their Igbo identity is relegated to the back burner.

As for Coleman's write-up, I've been knowing that, and it is exactly what I've been stating here this entire time, regarding my Ngwa people. We've been having our own consciousness. You're only presenting confirmation of my stance. We Ngwa, in pre-colonial times had a constitution, general, yearly all-Ngwa gatherings, and have always recognized Ngwa-Ukwu as "foundation capital". This is something I already knew, and it is the foundation of my viewpoint and understanding of 'Igbo Identity'.

Igbo identity is not new, and nothing will convince me that it is new. Igbo have been interacting with each other since they ventured out of each others arms lengths. They didn't see themselves as the same 'fraction' but at the same time they hardly ventured out of their lands, yet they ventured frequently to their other 'non-existent' ethnic zones (e.g Awka to Aba), why? Because they knew they had a common tie with each other. Just because they didn't have a common word for themselves doesn't mean they didn't know they had ties. They had wars, yes. They had/have issues with disunity, yes. Again, using England as an example, did the Northern English not riot about the wealth that stops in the south over and over again? Did this mean they weren't English?

If Igbo is not an identity, what are the Igbo then? A 'linguistic group' that happens to share religion, culture and even genes?

Ngwa is a tribe, not an ethnic group. Not to be fussy but here is dictionary.com's definition of tribe and ethnic group.

Ethnic group

1.
pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2.
referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

Tribe

–noun
1.
any aggregate of people united by ties of descent from a common ancestor, community of customs and traditions, adherence to the same leaders, etc.
2.
a [size=15pt]local division[/size] of an aboriginal people.
3.
a division of some other people.

I don't understand what the gain will be from demarcating Nigeria into village sized "states", Nigeria itself is the size of one state alone in America, and all this will cause is unnecessary growth to the government.