₦airaland Forum

Maximus69:
(1) You shouldn't derail the thread Sir. First tell me the correlation between the topic of your thread and the operation of the army, then we can proceed on that!

Now I doubt you are intelligence officer if you don't see the glaring correlation between the topic and the operation the army. Is it not vivid enough that;

i. Christians like Soldiers are commissioned personnel.

ii. Christians have rhe responsibility of preaching the gospel, much like Soldiers have duty to protect the sovereignty on the state.

iii. Christians are compelled to convert non-Christians, while Soldiers are obligated to subdue their enemy.

iv. Failing in their duty, Christians are likely to be punished like Jonah. Same way Soldierd would be punished by the Army for negligence.

v. Using pascal wager, I can argued that I didn't believe in historicity of the gospel because you neglected your duty of convincing and converting me. 1 Pet 3:15. And you take all the blames.

Maximus69:
(2) This is where you're making things difficult for yourself, you said Jesus is a fictional character yet you want to quote the so called fictional character as a real person.

Haba is Jesus a real historical figure or not?

If he is real then we can start discussing on what he said, but if he's not what has his command got to do with you?

I read the 48 laws of power written by Robert Greene, one chapter every day. And I see Greene citing King Arthur and figures from ancient folktales.

For heaven sake, I quoted the bible on what Jesus said, it didn't mean Jesus existed. I can go on and on quoting Ifa likewise, didn't mean the folktales in Ifa corpus is real.

Maximus69:
That's exactly what i'm trying to tell you, since you're of this opinion then there is no reason for further discussion.
So i wish you success in your quest and i think you too should wish me the same in order to wave farewell to each other with PEACE and LOVE!

Urrmm!, thank me for revealing the truth to you, that you wasted much time chasing vanity and hopelessness, even when your present existence is vanity. Enjoy your toil when you csn now Eccl 2. For when you you die, your knowledge is dead and you cease to exist. Wake up and never live life in dreams

Maximus69:
(1) You are asking but you're not listening attentively when the answer comes. A soldier is counted to be negligent of his duty when he fails to carry out the last order!

Oga, how do the headquarter treat cases of negligence of duty? I didn't ask you to remix or rephrase my questions.

Maximus69:
You're asking in connection with your lousy ranting what a soldier will do to you during WAR, and i told you simply that you're like a non-entity since you're a armless, bloody civilian.
So you're NOT OUR TARGET Sir!

Twisting and distortions. I didn't say any of this.

Again, how does the Army punish negligents?

Maximus69:
(2) Jesus asked us to go out IN SEARCH OF THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. Matthew 10:6

So as you can see for yourself, there are special kind of people we are assigned to look for NOT JUST ANY DICK AND HARRY LIKE YOU Sir, that means once we're able to deduce from your response to our presentation that you're not of that sort we quickly switch to the next door!

What again did 1 Pet 3:15 says?

And you are a deluded liar, Jesus commissioned the 12/70 to preach to every creatures in the world, not just the sheep only. Note, ALL CREATURES

Maximus69:
Èèsí o, Olódùmarè gbani o!

I said "i'm not interested in your quest!"

Perhaps i should type in capital letters for you to see clearly.

I SAID "AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR QUEST"!

EVIDENCE O, CLUELESSNESS O, FRUSTRATION O

I think it's none of your business for goodness sake, so why is it so difficult for you to just wave goodbye and forget about Maximus69?

My friend, Jesus loves you!

He is the same person who said people can't rest if they've gotten so much to offer, you said he never existed so let's forget about the discussion for you to go on with your quest and for me to continue my preaching and teaching campaign for God's Kingdom.

We know those with whom we can spend our time, not with your type.

So instead of giving yourself unnecessary headache about how to drag Maximus69 into some fruitless, hopeless and endless arguments why not move ahead in search of your kind?

I said i wish you success in your mission, try to wish me the same so that we wave at each other goodbye in PEACE!

The way you're taking this thing, don't let it enter your head to the extent of killing people who disagree with you o, that's how Boko Haram began!

Geez! Why are you crying all over the places? I understand it pained, that your long beliefs have substance of truth in it, and that your longed hope is hot air.

Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner, who lead Reform Judaism in Israel, had her own share of pain and tears. In her words: 'when I heard for the first time that the Exodus might not have happened, I did want to weep...' Alot of Israelites have admitted the story in the Exodus is fictional and reasonably traditional truth, but not historic facts. But a wannabe Christian with confused identity with the house of Israel wants to keep up the touch of his belief as if it will make the fiction turns to reality.

It is your tears and wailing, and we will accord you the privilege to use the wailing wall in Jerusalem, maybe God would replay the incidents so that it can become reality.

British archaeologist Philip Davies famously concluded that Moses, Joshua, Jesus himself and host of figures in the bible are about as much historic reality as King Arthur. You should wake up to reality Max, MuttleyLaff and emilo2stay, if Jesus had not died and resurrected, then your hope and faith is vanity. 1 cor 15:7

Maximus69:
(1)I love this question walahi talahi!

Negligence of duty!

As a military officer our duty is to make peace with ARMED enemies by either silencing them in death (killing them) or forcing them to surrender their WEAPONS.
But from the illustrative point of view, you're just a lousy and armless civilian that poses no threat at all, so no professional military personnel will dare waste a minute attending to your noise when there are fully armed adversaries out there!

You don't believe in the same line of thought so that means you won't force me to adhere to any form of standard since you don't have what you're holding so dear!

Therefore you're of no relevance in the mission given to me as a Christian soldier!

Hey! I asked a simple question and all you could provide is rable rouser, having no addresses to question at hand. Did you not say you are an intelligent officer? How come there is no intelligence in your response?

Simply tell us, providing a direct answer, how army department punish its men for negligence of duty.

Maximus69:
(2) The only reason for me to do that is not there!
Since you don't believe in the existence of a supreme being who have given you a form of standard to impose on me, you're of no significance to my mission!

Jesus said "SEARCH FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL"
Meaning individuals who strongly believe in the concept of the same line of thought.

Since you don't subscribe to that, it means you're fully prepared to return to dust hopelessly like Adam so farewell!

Another rable rouser.

The healthy needs not a doctor. A believer does not need your preaching.

For every man have been apportioned to eat the bread, drink wine, enjoy days of their youth with wife, and pour oil on their hair. Eccl.

Man shouldn't bother much about tomorrow.

The dead thinketh not and knows not his fate in the grave.

Men have been apportioned to live and die once.

All the above are from the bible, different entirely from the hellenistic garbage you have up there. Whay exactly what do you teach people when you go out for evangelism?

LordReed, when is Mr Emusan going to find and present the evidences of Jesus existence? He spoke the last time as if he had the evidences, many days have gone past and we haven't seen any evidences yet

Maximus69:
If you doubt the historicity of the events what then have you got to do with the characters mentioned in the story?

Ever heard of the statement 'using your words against you'?

The account is everywhere and I have to reasonable doubt, it is only you who is neglecting your responsibility of clearing my doubt with enormous evidences and facts. Negligence of duty, what is the penalty in the military?

Maximus69:
My friend, there are just to groups of people on planet earth:-

Believers~ These are people who strongly believe in the concept of the same line of thought regarding right and wrong, so when we find them we discuss with them to agree on principles and standards, that's what Christianity is all about!

Atheists~ These are advocates of freethinking, they don't subscribe to a common line of thought, they feel each person should decide what's right or wrong from his/her own perspectives, so when we find such persons we wave goodbye and move to the next door!

The problem most of you guys claiming atheists have is lack of intellect.
You shouldn't agree someone is a Christian simply because he claims to be so, the first thing any intellectual will do is find out what exactly does Christianity mean, the story of Jesus is in the Bible whether true or false is not the issue but who are those adhering to the ideas of the so called Jesus, then you'll be able to separate those who are claiming Christians from those following the teachings of the man Jesus, then you can now concentrate on his real followers to discard Jesus as a fictitious Character.
But when you keep arguing with every Dick and Harry simply because they claim to be Christians, it makes you look like Jack who is responding to all the dogs backing at him on his way to work, of course he can't go any further!

Instead of writing epistles, you are a christian, prove christ exist historically. The long epistle makes my head ache

Maximus69:
For your information there are billions of atheists claiming Christians, any religionist who does not subscribe to the same line of thought is an ATHEIST (misinformed) and any atheist who can't afford to say goodbye after hearing the resolve of his fellow man is a believer (misinformed).

That's why Jesus asked us to go and search for suchlike ones, they are the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL! Matthew 10:6,15:24

So don't think you're winning when a so called religionists turn to ATHEISM, he is already an atheist but MISINFORMED!

.....

Maximus69:
Mr FOLY, i never wanted to discuss with you from the start!

Remember you called me out while i was busy chatting with my friend honourable Prof LordReed, and after getting to know your resolve on the matter of faith, i told you my humble resolve as well expecting you to wave goodbye!

So whether Jesus existed or not is not a topic i have time to discuss with you Sir.

My search is for those who believe in the same line of thought to make PEACE, and Jesus is the key to that, but since you don't believe he ever existed, it means what matters to me is of no interest to you.

So there is no reason for further discussion, there is a purpose for whatever we believers do. Our mission is to unite people with the use of a common line of thought Jesus laid down. But since you feel Jesus never existed, it's OK you can continue in your quest.

We are not of the same sort meaning our mission totally differ!

The show of timidity is only an evidence cluelessness and frustration. Not once did I mention that I do not believe Jesus existed. I only said base on historical sources and scholar view, historicity of Jesus life and bible events do not conform with reality. I gave you all the opportunities in the world to prove Jesus, whom you believe, actually existed, but couldn't do it. I asked for resources which could help your case but you only asked me to two books that only recount bible stories without emphasis on historical realities which the thread is all about. And now you are trying to play the sissy game. If you have any shred of evidence, present it and stop whining.

And in absence of evidence, simply tell us about your hope in the second coming of a man who never existed. Don't you see your faith as vanity?

MuttleyLaff:
I was just making sure you didnt by some strange fluke ascribe the statement to me ni ojaare, lol. Look at you, bringing record book out like as Abami Ẹda Fẹla RIP wey go courtroom, for me, lol. Chai!

This is the trait of 'superstitio' Suetonius, the roman historian noticed in the early Christian's behaviour during the reign of Emperor Claudius in 44AD.

In his work titled "Lives of the Twelve Caesars", he described Christians, ' a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.' He is the earliest historian's who wrote about the expulsion of the jew from Rome by Claudius, following instigation of anti-government movement by 'a certain Crestus'. Roman government do not have a detailed information about whom Jesus is. Only superstitious fellas can believe such a figure exist.

That trait of attack and persecution is what you are exhibiting here.

We have passed the first phase, and should any moment from now move to the next phase which is, justification of your faith while vividly understanding that much of the account and events recorded in the bible legend, tale and fable.

The next turn question for you and other Christians on the forum, knowing now that Jesus didn't exist historically, and that the major events written about him are fabricated, is your faith justified? Do you guys trust that a man who didn't exist in the past would come in the future and take you to paradise? Do you still trust in the hope of everlasting life?

Remembering that Paul said 'if Jesus had not died then the faith, evangelical works, hope of resurrection in the end is total vanity'. Knowing now that Jesus didn't die or resurrect, what convinced you that you will resurrect in the end? And how do you handle the shame that all you longed for, hope for and yearn for is vanity?

Thanks

Maximus69:
The problem you guys have is obvious when you find it so difficult to ignore!

The secret behind the concept of God is to determine right and wrong for intelligent creatures, you people are saying there is nothing as such yet when someone choose to be unquestionably stupid (from your point of view) you failed woefully to maintain your stance!

If truthfully there is no God, why can't you just live your life without having to correct adults like you who have chosen what they will like to do with their lives?

Come on, these people aren't snatching your bread, butter or cup of tea, so why are you people agitating?

Mr Max sir, stop jumping at the gun. The thread is about historicity of the bible figures and events, not about God.

We have passed the first phase, and should any moment from now move to the next phase which is, justification of your faith while vividly understanding that much of the account and events recorded in the bible legend, tale and fable.

The next turn question for you, MuttleyLaff, emilo2stay and other Christians on the forum, knowing now that Jesus didn't exist historically, and that the major events written about him are fabricated, is your faith justified? Do you guys trust that a man who didn't exist in the past would come in the future and take you to paradise? Do you still trust in the hope of everlasting life?

Remembering that Paul said 'if Jesus had not died then the faith, evangelical works, hope of resurrection in the end is total vanity'. Knowing now that Jesus didn't die or resurrect, what convinced you that you will resurrect in the end? And how do you handle the shame that all you longed for, hope for and yearn for is vanity?

Thanks

Maximus69:
How many of you out there are waiting for the evidence?

1. Thomas
2. Whoever doubted the death and resurrection of Jesus according to 1cor 15
3. Whoever Paul significantly told to always seek the truth and always enquire for hold unto truth only 1 thes 5:21
4. Whoever David called the prudent mind that verify facts before accepting them
5. I and every one who had their thinking cap on.
6. Every other conscious minds exception of feeble minds.

Now give me the total number of people waiting for evidence.

Maximus69:
My guy, you've got all the time to choose what you will believe (trust) nobody gives a bleep about whatever you choose to believe.
So it's you that's having problems with the beliefs of others which makes you the one suffering silently!
Live your life the way you want and leave others to whatever they choose to (trust) believe!

This is jusy rambling like that of a child that lost his toy

Emusan:
So you want to tell me that you haven't heard about Archaeological evidence of any Biblical figures?

This is pure dishonesty...

Simply present the records. Long story short.

Emusan:
Geological evidence in what sense?

Geological evidence of global flooding.

Emusan:
Biological evidence....they said Jesus resurrected and you're looking for His biological evidence....

Biological evidence of virgin birth not resurrection.

Emusan:
There are contemporary accounts of Him

Save our time and show us your so called contemporary accounts

MuttleyLaff:
FOLYKAZE, please paste here that your proof of MuttleyLaff's "You told us you don't know". Has it now come to this, how low the mighty descend to Pinocchio tactics, lol. The shadow of your nose is bigger than your body's, lol.

Folykaze: But if I may ask, what is your thought on afterlife. Would there not be rapture and sojourn to heaven in the literal sense? Is everything in the bible allegory

Budaatum: I have no evidence for an afterlife or a heaven nor do I concern myself about such things, for Christ wisely advised that "Sufficient for the day is its own trouble", and I can't add "one cubit to my stature" by worrying.

Now check the OP, it is about historicity of the Bible figure and events and justification of christian faith with regard to hope on afterlife.

When did I ascribe the statement to you?

[quote author=MuttleyLaff post=87339470][/quote]Agbo to tadi m'eyin.

Welcome

budaatum:
First, I do not have to admit a story I tell you is fiction. It would in fact be rather unusual to admit such a thing if you are not able to work that out yourself. Its like asking mummy and daddy to admit father christmas is unreal when you are not mature enough to work it out yourself, which is part of your development, the working it out, that is.

Second, why would you require others to admit a thing is fiction if they don't see it as fiction? Is it that you undervalue the effort you may have put in to work it out and expect others to be at the stage you might be at without doing the work you've done? Or is it that you can not just accept that you might be at a different developmental stage to the one they are at?

Perhaps listen to Christ solve the difficulty you are having when he said, [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11%3A2-6&version=NIV]The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.[/url] It means each receives (understands) as much as they require (are able or willing to understand).

Paul further advised that [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13%3A11&version=NIV]when people are children, they will talk and reason like children, but when they grow up, as in grow in understanding, they will put the ways of childhood behind them[/url].

You, perhaps, should learn love and compassion for those who do not understand what you are trying to do and perhaps seek understanding yourself instead of that which you seem hell bent on doing here, which is, open peoples' eyes but with no understanding of how the Chief Eye Opener is written to have opened peoples' eyes. In a sense, it's like you playing God trying to create Maximus69 and MuttleyLaff in your own image and with your own understanding, or trying to ram calculus down a non-maths student's throat. Both sides are, in fact trying to create each other to become like one another, with max and muttley trying to make you see what they see with no consideration, you two, that perhaps Christ has not spat in mud and rubbed it in FOLYKAZE's like He has in your own eyes! Could you both explain to me why you'd expect the blind to see what the non-blind see?

Fools undervalue themselves by thinking others should understand and reason like they do. Arrogant fuqs go about rubbing their own understanding, nay! beliefs in the face of children. And smart people learn from those who have done what they wish to do so they can be better at doing it. It is what is meant when it is written [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4%3A11-12&version=NIV]Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”[/url] It means one will be saved (free from the agony of existence), if one understands about Christ.

You might note that John called him [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A1-5&version=NIV]The Word[/url], which means one should therefore learn to read and gain understanding and then wisdom, which would have meant quite a lot in the days it was written when most did not have the opportunity or the ability to read at all.

As to whether Jesus existed or not, you choose to believe he didn't. Some choose to believe he did. Some just learn the lessons regardless since there is really insufficient evidence to point either way with both sides having facts to prove their position sufficiently for themselves. And some just believe, like you do, because that is the level they are at.

Shoo! I offend you? Why are you turning the table against me when I am not the original writer of the bible? You should take it on the bible writer who deliberately wrote his plot as historic rather call it what it is, fiction.

I said in my previous post that nothing is wrong with fiction, it is a universal thing. What is important is that the narrator must be iron out the whole facts instead of distorting, twisting facts and outrightly lying. The Yoruba people came out that the stories in Ifa are fictions, esoteric and metaphor. This is the reason Orunmila, the divination spirit, is called 'erigi alo', meaning that fables teller. Many awo argued that the stories are cryptic, an encoded form of information. Yinyu Yinyu la n lu ilu agidibo, ologbon lo mo n, olumoran ni n jo (the agidibo drum voiced cryptic tones, the wise understand and the inteligent dance to it). Ifa messages convey more than literal meaning. Conveys history, science, philosophy, symbols, spirituality, traditions, etc. But we all understand and agree that Ifa stories are majorly fictions. And Orunmila is known from the Genesis as erigi alo.

The Father Christmas, parent and kid is out of the path. In that case, the parent knew and were only fanning the kid hope of having new gifts. They know the truth, that father Christmas is fantasy, and specially use it for the kids who couldn't think the facts out for themselves.

However, the narrator in the bible do not know the truth, the Pastors do not know the truth either, and the believers thrown deep into fantasies of delusion. Findings have shown that the Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy and much of the old testament books were copied from Urgarit texts of the canaanites during the period of King Josiah. The prophets, judges, kings until king josiah were imaginative figures, they do not exist.

Beyond the fact that most of the old testament books were copied, the divinities were also copied and reconstructed from Canaan spirituality. Yahweh is Canaan spirituality is the son of El. Yahweh had a consort Asherah, and was member of the council of Gods. Bible reveal the Israelite worship the 70 children of El until monotheism was introduced about 3500yrs ago.

Aside that, the archeological findings have exposes that the account of Israel exile in Babylon and return to zion under king Nebukadnezar and Cyrus respectively were distorted and exaggerated. King Nebukadnezar didn't meet Daniel, another fictional figure, and the king didn't feed on scrub for 7yrs. That is fabrication. The cyrus tablet also exposed that king cyrus didn't decree the freedom of Israelite and building of the second temple. Till date, there is no evidence of the first temple.

The gospel writers did not witness what they wrote. They all penned down popularly held belief and tradition then. The believers today too are robed with ignorance and fantasy, having illusion of hope.

Had the writer had known that the account is fictional, had the preacher know too, the analogy of Father Christmas, Parents and kids would have click. The writer copied from Urgarit texts, adopted divinity there and heavily fabricate stories to suit their agenda. The agenda was later popularized and sold as dummy to MuttleyLaff, Maximus69, EMILO2STAY and every Christians out there.

This goes beyond Christianity though. Even the Buddhist believe Buddha mother conceived him without intercourse, was delivered by elephant and walked after 4days. But unlike the Christians, they admit openly that the birth account is fictional. With that admission, people leave aside the historicity of Buddha birth and focuses on his philosophy. Unless maybe Christians could admit the figures in the bible do not exist just like you do, we will focus more on the messages embedded in the stories. But why insisting the account are historical, they have the responsibility of proving their claim. After all, no one would disturb them to prove fiction, we only demand prove of alleged historical accounts in the bible.

On another round, max, Muttley and emilo habe refused to tell us how much they trust the hope in second life. You told us you don't know, but our interest is on them since they believe the accounts are historic.

LordReed:
I am continually astounded by what I didn't know about this book called the Bible. The way I used to think about it was as if there was sufficient evidence at least for the historical veracity of the key figures. Guess what nobody ever showed me that evidence I just assumed it was there. I am sure many Christians likewise just assume the evidence is there but have never bother to actually look nor has anyone really presented them with evidence, they just believe.

That is the problem, they just believe without verifying their facts. There is a popular korean sayings, 'the truth you know, how true is it?' Had christians questioned their popularly held truth, had they scrutinize the bible narration, they would have come to term that it is all work of fictions. So many archeological findings, chronicle of ancient Kingdom and documents exposes the falsity of the Bible accounts.

Pastor would stand on the pulpit, preaching that Israelite were enslaved in Egypt, crossed the red sea and captured Canaan through military campaign...the preacher is ignorant of facts, and the listeners are also misled. I wonder how they could so much keep the hope of paradise alive when the whole accounts are made up.

Maximus69:
Please why are you so disturbed about what i CHOSE to believe (trust) in?

I think tolerance is about freedom of speech, expression and worship!

Since i've tolerated your unbelief and take you as my well meaning neighbour, i think you too should just tolerate my beliefs and take me as a well meaning neighbour too, it's not by force you accept my Jesus and you're not to force me to abandon my Jesus either!

Please it's OK, just live and let live my friend!

Did I say I have problem with your belief? After all some people belief Mohammed flew up and cut the moon into half. It is all believe, abject illusion and opium, and those who are intoxicated with it should enjoy their hopelessness.

Isn't it weird. An adult believed a man who didn't exist would come and rule over the earth. He has hope and keep it alive. In the end, he drive into nothingness and all the hope becomes vanity. Wake up Max

LordReed, isn't it weird that Daniel, the popular figure in the bible who dream and had vision that many Christians believe today is fictional? Joshua too is fiction. What exactly is real in the bible?

Maximus69:
The indisputable TRUTH is that Jesus is a real historical figure, whether some people like it or not there is nothing they can do about the fact.

The only motivating spirit behind those doubting the authenticity of the story of Jesus is rebelliousness and disobedience!

They just don't want anyone or anything to dictate how they should live their lives, but what baffles me is the fact that when they now found someone who wholeheartedly subjected himself or herself to some forms of standards in the name of God (a Supreme Being) they become agitated, and they can't wait to start pestering such a person to conform to their rebellious spirit!

Don't just tell us he is real, prove it with evidence. If you are sure he existed, whyis it difficult to prove your claim?

budaatum:
This is doublespeak.

You claim "The message is less important", and that your focus is to "establish the existence of the messenger", yet claim an "inability to prove the messenger exists" makes the "message worths nothing".

It makes me wonder if you never grew up reading [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop%27s_Fables?wprov=sfla1]the Aesopica[/url] and fiction in general or just refused to learn anything from fiction because they are made up fables. Or perhaps you are just being disingenuous with your argument hoping readers are too dumb to see through you.

Please tell, have you read any of the fictitious dialogues written by Plato? Did they teach you nothing because they are fictitious? Is it worth nothing to teach you to love others? Do you know what the world would be like if 'love others' was never taught, to you and to others around you?

On the first note Budaa, I don't have issue with fiction. It is part of every culture out there, Yoruba inclusive. If you noticed, I applauded when you came out and accept the Jesus stories ain't literal and shouldn't be taken as one. I read and heard many fiction stories, howeer, the narrator must indicate the account is fiction, hence there would be confusion.

If the narrator however inform his listeners that the figures in his account are historic and real, there lies the problem, deceit and distrust. The whole message becomes irrelevant since it is based on lies. And any promises embedded in the message becomes hot air.

In Yoruba culture, message are conveyed as tales. Ethics and morality are personified also. However, the narrator would inform his listeners the account is fable, and would never mix or paint it as fact.

Ifa and Orunmila tells more than 200,000 fables. But every listener acknowledge the stories for what it is, fables. When the narrator say the character in the stories are real, then there are problems.

If Maximus69 and MuttleyLaff coud admit Jesus is fictional, then we could handle his message without worrying about the person of Jesus cuz we acknowledged he doesn't exist. But when they claim and insist he existed, they have to prove their claim to show they ain't selling hot air to us

Maximus69:
I heard of someone and everything i heard about him seems unbelievable, so i wish there could be proof of his existence.
But i learnt that apart from all what i heard, he also predicted some events and said his own followers will be doing something extraordinary during the time when those things are having their fulfilment.
OK i still feel that's not enough, then what he said began happening in my own eyes, and not only that i can see some people claiming to be his followers DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID IN A UNIQUE WAY AND ACCOMPLISHING WHAT SEEMS IMPOSSIBLE!

My uncle used to say "a warrior returned from battle, explaining how many people he killed during the war, but due to his display of how the war goes 8 life goats died as he was matching up and down" If i couldn't witness the casualties at the battle field, am i still blind to the casualties here at home?

My friend, you can continue looking for the evidence to prove whether Jesus truly existed or not, we are looking for those who believe this is not how things will continue to be so that we can inculcate in them a brighter future that Jesus promised, we're seeing it's fulfilment already and we are busy teaching them how it will become a reality.
So keep searching for the proof backing Jesus' historicity, i wish you success in your search!

Isn't it weird, that an adult fraternize and bury all senses of reasoning because you found a prophecy without questioning the veracity of the prophet.

Didn't JW, the organisation you hold onto your chest, used Daniel's prophecy to explain world powers and the restoration of God's kingdom? I need to let you know that they used the Daniel prophecy to predict the end of the current world government and the coming of God's kingdom. Do I need to inform you that Daniel is fictional figure and do not exist? The character Daniel appears in the Ugarit, saw vision, had prophecy and protested against Governments. Daniel like figure also appear in different cultures with almost same dream and vision that JW and larger Christian bodies celebrate.

Jesus's alleged prophecy is nothing different from the prediction of pigs, fishes and monkeys that accurately predicted who would win in the last American election. Since their predictions were accurate, would you have become a disciple of animals? Nostradamus did better than Jesus, why ain't you worshipping Nostradamus today for accurately predicting incidents correctly?

However, the predictions of pigs, fishes, monkeys and Nostradamus is plausible more than that of Jesus because they do exist, the existence of Jesus is questionable and even you don't even know for sure if he existed.

The existence of Jesus is paramount. And lack of evidences to prove he existed makes the whole attributions to him invalid and vain just like Apostle Paul argued.

So far so good, you can prove Jesus existence, you can keep his messages in your head, as it worth nothing more than the preaching of Tortoise and Yannibo in African folktale

Maximus69:
The underlined is where i will comment on.

Today we're numbering 8.7 millions globally and everywhere you find us, it's the same way we behave. One thing i'll like you to know is that most of us were worse than those people you called "EVIL", but how come we have changed into what you know today?
Well Jehovah's Witnesses in our neighborhood came to knock on our doors, many of them we insulted, abused, cursed even assaulted physically!
But they persisted with their mild presentation until our stony hearts were melted.
Had it been they have used force on us, i for one would have loved that it will give me the guts to show them the stuff i'm made of.
But NO, they remained calm, cool and collected.
For your information, there is nothing as in NOTHING anyone can do to stop the menace Satan is bringing on the human race!
Jesus said it will continue to worsen than this. We have NO LIFE NOW, all we have is the opportunity to prove to God that we're spotless and guiltless in the blood of innocent people!
If the next minute means our life, so be it our running from one place to another is not to live comfortably but to get the message across if possible to others who might need to hear it!
This world is doomed Sir!
Only God's Kingdom is the lasting solution, if the people like let them gather more weapons for their security personnels, the next minute the same security personnel may turn against the ones he is paid to protect all because he wants what they are protecting "material things of life"
So we fully understand what you are thinking Sir, but the truth is it's not going to work. Satan is winning more people to his side than ever, the only way to play your part is to join Jehovah's Witnesses to PREACH and TEACH perhaps to snatch some away from Satan and make them Jehovah's Witnesses, i'm sure you now know what it means if you're able to do that!

I do not want to take on so as not to derail the thread. What is peace when you don't respect life, thereby you brutally kill animals and feed on their flesh, and also deny life saving blood transfusion to the sick. The gospel quoted jesus saying that he didn't come to bring peace to earth but sword? What is sword used for? Peacemaking right? It went further saying no one can follow Jesus without HATING his father, mother and extended family. Is HATRED part of your brotherhood? You can deceive triplechoice but not me.

That aside, can you for once prove Jesus existed and walked on earth? Or should we summarily conclude in the absence of evidence that there is no Jesus and what ever syroy and messahe ascribed to him is baseless?

triplechoice:
He does not want to come to terms with the short comings of his group. .JW always believe they are infallible. They will never agree to anything that you say even if you present them with hard evidence. It's only what they're taught and made to accept as truth that they know
Though I must have to admit that,despite my criticism, they hardly cause trouble or engaged in criminal activities wherever you find them.That's one of the good things about this group. If other religious groups in this country can emulate them , then crime would be greatly reduced. Yahoo boys are active members in most of these Churches you see around and they pay tithe regularly from the proceeds of what they do

Jains are better than jw in term of peaceful coexistence and upholding ultimate sacredness of life

Maximus69:
There is no time for that now Sir {Ephesians 5:15-16} if you don't believe Jesus' historicity it's OK!

Our message is not for people who want to argue, it's for those who feels bad about what's happening on planet earth and wants to know what will be the end of all these.

You've said your mind, you feel things will never change and it's humans that can make the needed changes if possible.

So go and do what you feel is worthwhile Sir, i'm a Christian and my business is to search for the lost sheep of the house of Israel {Matthew 10:6, 15:24} meaning those who believe in God's ability to restore things to order.
You're not of that sort so there is no need wasting our time on fruitless arguments! Philippians 2:14; Colossians 2:4; 1Timothy 6:4; Titus 3:9

Thanks Sir!

There is always time to do the right thing. Investing much time on the wrong thing, just like you are doing, is baseless.

The thread isn't designed for arguement but an establishment of fact, creation of a reality, and provision of evidence which put away every reasonable doubt. But you want to put the cart before the horse, a total waste of time and effort.

The message is less important, the focus of this thread is to establish the existence of the messenger. The veracity of the messenger authenticate the message. And inability to prove the messenger exist, the message worths nothing.

Think about it, you came preaching to me about how God loved me, and I responded that I know nothing about God. My respond has put the initial God's love message to rest, what should come on board is establishment of God existence and essentisl evidence to buttress he does exist. Forcing the initial God's love message is useless if you can't prove God exist first.

In the bible, apostle Paul had to come in when his followers were having doubt if a Man called Jesus could be dead and truly ressurected. 1 Cor 15 clearly shows Paul followers had doubt about the historicity of the resurrection, not the message Paul wanted to pass through resurrection.

I want us to focus more on the historicity of Jesus's life and activities. I understand you believe this man existed, he walked and preached in Galilee, and that he ascended into heaven. But how true are these things historically? Did it happened literally or it is allegory? If it is the formal, where is your evidence?

Maximus69:
I've told you my friend, we are not to quarrel over this issue.
If you don't believe in the gospels well i do and i'm not forcing my beliefs on you.
During the time Jesus walked the earth many nations around the Mediterranean knew very well that there is a God in Israel that is invincible! So when Jesus began performing miracles it was not difficult to believe.
Chinua Achebe's writing whether being an eyewitness or not will still fade away in the minds of Nigerians who have witnessed killings more intense than a face off battle. Many Nigerians have died not because they were prepared for war like the Biafrans but just to wake up in the middle of the night been attacked by fully armed men whereas they themselves are harmless and helpless.
But we are talking about events that happened almost two thousand years ago, all the eyewitness and their contemporaries are no more but what the man from Nazareth prophesied is now happening for real in our own generation!

You wanted to dismiss his prophecy by saying people have always fight wars, but there has never been a global war when all the countries on planet earth is involved!
And the reason sounds preposterous, just because two or three persons had issues!
What about food shortages? Well despite all the technological advancement we have, people continue to die in millions due to malnutrition whereas we've developed mechanized farming to the point where we can meet the demands of the tenth generations to come!
Pestilences!
The advancement of pharmacy in our age has gone beyond what a contemporary of Jesus could imagine, one could think that with all the gadgets we have today, there shouldn't be any form of disease that can take mankind unaware but look thousands are dying on daily basis due to diseases!
Hatred amongst humans!
Despite the influence of communication in the world today, people are still clamoring for DIVISION, i grew up to meet Nigeria having 12 states, my dad said it was just three but today we're now having 36 states in the same Nigeria and the people are still agitating for more states!

With all of these, Jesus foretold that a group of people will begin to form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers globally, and everyone will notice that the bond is stronger than ever. Yes! People have come from different races and countries to form one family in my own eyes!
So my friend, i'm not pestering you to join me, if you don't believe in Jesus of Nazareth, well i do!

Need I remember you we are discussing about Jesus's historicity, not his messsge?

Can you prove Jesus walked on this earth 2000yrs ago?

triplechoice:
You seem to take great pride in always mentioning that your group does not carry arms or is not interested in arms conflict and for this your are promoting peace. Good and very good
But my friend , there are crazy people in the world. These set of humans, no matter where you find, derive pleasure in doing evil. Force is the only thing that can stop them. Not your watch tower and awake magazine.

What is even more annoying for me is that you are completely blind to the fact that Nigerians soldiers fighting Boko Haram, with some of them getting killed, are doing so to protect you and I. You people are not making peace but living in denial

If not for the effort of the military, Boko Haram would have extended to the southern part of the country and no where would be safe. Then what would you do ? of course you will run to cotonou or Ghana (that's your usual advice) to continue your pretentious peace making nonsense. Bunch of cowards!

I am beginning to understand why the Russian government that depends on the size and strength of it's military don't want you.

You claim to be a former military intelligence officer but it's difficult to see this in any of your post.

Tell him to read about Jainism if he wants peaceful and non violence religion system. JW claiming peaceful and non violent but violently killing animals, denying animal right and eating meat, even when the bible said “For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.” Eccl. 3:19-20

Apt response though

Maximus69:
Your thinking is catapulted towards one goal "EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT"

But you forgot to note that people are moved to pen down things that's strange NOT thing that has happened and recorded before!

For instance, what can you make out of a rape issue when it has been heard of in many places?
Or what do you think about ritualism when people have heard lots of it?

My friend we are talking about the Israelites here!
There has been lots of miraculous events happening in their midst for ages, so Jesus coming to perform miracles can be strange only to races who never experienced such NOT amongst the Israelites who have had similar experiences with different prophets in the past! Matthew 16:13-14

Today how many documents have you personally made and preserved for up coming generation about corrupt politicians, electricity black outs, bribery everywhere, underaged prostitution, terrorism and so on all happening in our society during your lifetime?

Of course you wouldn't because it has become like unavoidable thorns in the flesh of Nigerians, so we're already used to the system. But imagine if students from the army school should get weapons, kill all corrupt politicians and establish a new government where nobody is allowed to own more than a house, a car or earn above/below N100,000!
Of course no Nigerian will ever forget to pass such information to the coming generation!

Only Jesus' followers penned down the events because he commissioned them to tell it to the world! Matthew 28:19-20

The gap between the time of event and writing is logical, because they began writing down all what they heard and saw after all what this young man prophesied had happened during their own lifetime!

It was God's holy spirit that reminded them all what this young man did and told them decades after his ascension! John 14:26

That's why i said "if you don't believe in all these it's OK, other individuals will put faith in what they've heard and seen with their own eyes"

I for my part became a Christian NOT because i had interest in the records of their so called miracles, but because of one single word " Christian Soldiers"

I read the story several times and i couldn't find anyway a Christian (follower of a Jewish carpenter turned preacher, who never learnt nor raised a weapon to kill anyone) could be a soldier (armed men using weapons and force to accomplish their goal).

So i began studying all the religious groups claiming Christians around me until i found the Jehovah's Witnesses!

This group will never raise a weapon, in fact it's totally against their norms to be a military officer or force man, yet they're zealously conquering villages, towns, cities and countries.
Even in the stronghold of world renoun racist nations, these people have penetrated and initiated members who have vowed never to participate in politics or racism again!

Well that's when i now concluded that this Jesus who made that prophecy regarding people coming out from different races to form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers once lived on this planet, and all what was written about him is TRUE! Isaiah 2:1-4 compare to John 13:34-35;17:20-23

Would you have expected me to require from you accounts based on HEARSAY or made up illusion of someone?

No, darling Max, don't bamboozle me with excuses that Israelite had seen so many miracles hence couldn't write about their experiences in Jesus lifetime, the line is tasteless. The same converted jew and gentle penned down their popular belief
, attesting to other writeups, what was the motive of their writings? Commonalities? how is the general jew community different here?

Your focus is on the Jew. However, we had many non jew like Samaritans and gentiles who had contacts with Jesus. How come none of these people wrote anything about him? Have they seen numerous miracles from their own messiah too?

You see, an incident like ascension without propulsion is not common like you stated. The massive resurrection of zombies is nothing common. The incident happened in judea under the control of elite Romans. How come not a single record from Rome have the info?

Need to tell you sir, that the civil war in Nigeria was recorded by so many people who witnessed it. Chinual Achebe book is a good example of eye witness account. Everything he wrote in the book happened in his time. His work isn't based on hearsay or popular held belief.

My own personal life experiences are jotted in diary. And so many people do this too. On the larger scale incidents in the nation, the report is always everywhere, and achieved for future purposes.

Christians held that Jesus life isn't a common life as many significant things happened in his days. Resurrection isn't common, feeding of 10,000 folks without having food reserve isnt common, people were on the sea fishing and saw Peter catwalking on the water...this isn't common, ascension isn't also common. When he was been baptised, a voice came from heaven and many people across the province heard it...this too isn't common. The roman soldier he glue his ear, he isn't jew and such act should be strange. All these incidents ain't common and very strange. There should be a document recording it from the contemporaries.

Even if it is records confirming just one of the incidents, it will authenticate the others. An absence of any record is same as saying it didn't happen.


If I may ask, how did you trust a secondary source data in the gospels?

budaatum:
Many underestimate their own learning thinking their Pastor ought to know more. It's like they disregard the amount of work they personally did to acquire the knowledge that they have acquired and think their pastor ought to have done more work to know more.

Such people have likely not read how Balaam's ass was smarter than Balaam so they value their pastor more than themselves. No wonder their love for others is as little as the little love they have for themselves, I think.

If only they could understand that their own task/calling might be different to their pastor's calling. But typically of humans, they want everyone to be created in their own image, and be just like they are and understand as they do, as if knowledge, wisdom and understanding falls freely from the heavens on everyone's head like rain does.

May you gain insight into thyself, I say, instead of seeking the insight of thy Pastor.

Lol.

The Pastor was on my neck for like two months asking me to worship in his church. I told him pointblank I am not a Christian and do not have interest in religion, but he won't bulge. I have raised many objections during service and he thought i be bad market. One of his evangelist wanted to attack me when I asked them to prove existence of God and exhibit the power of God before me. He caused it though. Will continue pulling the string until he pronounce that I should stop coming to his church.

budaatum:
I have no evidence for an afterlife or a heaven nor do I concern myself about such things, for Christ wisely advised that "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A26-34&version=NKJV]Sufficient for the day is its own trouble", and I can't add "one cubit to my stature"[/url] by worrying. What I do know is that some are in heaven right here on earth, and some are definitely in hell.

And no, everything in the Bible is not allegory. Some is historical - though bad history mostly, some is mythical, some made up, some corrupted, some of it is to make one think and so on and the whole of it is to make one a living human being.

That said, the devil does not rest, so one must be diligent in one's reading while bearing in mind what the message is.

That above is brilliant. It only takes big heart to admit the reality of the Bible.

Maximus69 and MuttleyLaff, una agree with budaa?

Maximus69:
It's good when you come out plainly to say what you know about something than hiding under pretext as if you're searching for proof!

If you don't want to hear anything about Christ or Christianity, just go ahead and say that. There are resource materials from which Jehovah's Witnesses gathered all the information regarding the gospel writers, but this is not the appropriate medium for that.

I've told you how the Bible got to us and the historical evidence of why his contemporaries who aren't his followers never mentioned him.

Since you've made up your mind on what to believe i think there is no need wasting much time on the discussion, but if you still feel like knowing about our resource materials regarding the gospel writers, feel free to welcome Jehovah's Witnesses to your home and ask for it!

Below is the table indicating the writer of the book, times, dates, duration and events surrounding the time of writing.

So don't underestimate the knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses like your misinformed churchgoer friends!

Mr Max sir, I think you should calm your nerves. The tone you are exhibiting here isn't that a christian or the jw. I implore you to remain calm and respectful.

Go through the OP, from onset I made my understanding on the subject that the narratives in the bible is parallel to it's historicity well known. So sir, do not take offense if I retort these stories over and over, as a counter to your own submission.

The history of the early and first century Christians are well known. The brewing crisis that lead to the destruction of Jewish temple is also known. While the accounts do not correlate, you are the one painting the pictures with one brush.

Telling us sir, that there is no contemporary accounts about Jesus life and his activities is tantamount to saying what we know of him today, writing many decades after he is dead, is fictional. Please listen to yourself sir, the people he performed miracles on would have written something about the incident. The people he resurrected could have written about their experience. There were massive rises of the dead, coming back alive, after Jesus died; a significant incident like this would have been documented by people and close relatives of the zombies. Those he gave wine to in the wedding, the 5000+ he fed on different occasions would have written about him. The resurrection was witnessed by about 550 folks, the ascension was seen worldwide, but no one wrote about it? Not even none jew/Christians who saw the unusual? Is that possible? But hey, the earliest document we have about him was written 40yrs after he died. Does this make sense to you? So it is not that they necessarily do not want to write about this incidents. Maybe it didn't happen, just like the enslavement of Jew in Egypt and the Exodus, none of these incident truly occurred.

Mankind search for God, a book published by Jw, argued that the evidence of the global flooding in Noah days is truth because there are global flooding myth. How does one affirm historic reality with myth?

The author of the gospels are not witnesses. The Gospel was not written and does not claim to be written by direct witnesses to the reported events. Luke mentions that he knows of other written sources of Jesus' life, and that he has investigated in order to gather the most information. The sources of their information is not from original sources, but largely secondary and in some cases tertiary. From the legal standpoint, secondary source data are not admissible, especially when the primary source is unavailable. Tertiary data are thrown out without second look. With this, I implore you to provide only eye witness account that the gospel writers drawn their writing from. Moreso, account in real time would be much accepted. You see, I have given you expo on what I need.

And if you have information on the author of the gospels, please do not hoard them. Post them here and let us learn. Thanks

LordReed:
I must confess FOLY you have treated this subject with much incisive punch. I was never happier to have my misconceptions dispelled. And not because I agree with what you've written but because that effort you put into it shows.

Kudos.

It's my pleasure Your highness Reed.

The discourse have exposes more than I had in mind. This week, I took time to read Bible narration on Israel exile, building of the second temple and the action of Cyrus toward their freedom and project. While unraveling the historicity of the account, a transcript of Cyrus cylinder, a clay cylinder text containing writings from Cyrus, shows that Cyrus had nothing to do with Jew or their development of the temple. The texts indicated that Cyrus only decree that Babylon God Marduk temple should be rebuilt. Historian revealed that Nebodial, the preceding king abandoned worshipping Marduk, and enforced Sin, the moon God from the Northern Babylon on the entire empire. Cyrus reversed this. However, the bible and the flocks of believers twisted and distorted the decree for their own purposes. Cyrus Cylinder invalidates everything written in the bible....

I took the issue to church and Pastor subtly jabbed me, warning that he won't tolerate such discussion in his church. Next sunday topic is about Exodus and Joshua ruling as a judge....my hard hit spot, he go hear am

budaatum:
That is my own understanding, that Jesus didn't literally ascend to Heaven, but that he is in. Heaven because words we read about him being where most commonly refer to as heaven.

It's like saying Jesus', and everything else written in a book, is to teach how to live a productive life and is to be used as an example or lesson or reason for living it (depending what you read, for some bits show how not to live, and time has significantly passed just as what is required to live today has also evolved). But you need to understand how tp read first, which seems to be beyond most.

I know of a guy called Buzugee who share same idea as above, that the bible accounts is majorly allegorical. I don't have issue with that.

But if I may ask, what is your thought on afterlife. Would there not be rapture and sojourn to heaven in the literal sense? Is everything in the bible allegory

Maximus69:
The Bible itself have provided enough reason why secular history from Jesus' contemporaries can't be found.
It's either you carefully read, diligently study and thoroughly meditate on what was written before and after those gospel accounts that you can see the correlation you desire!

The Jewish religious leaders of his time made sure that he was
accused,
arrested,
detained,
tried,
judged,
sentenced and
executed
all on false charges, they made it seem as if he was a criminal that should be totally forgotten, they don't want his historicity to go beyond his days so they ordered (with threat) his followers to stop talking to people about him! Act 5:28

This are the then renoun religious leaders RECOGNIZED by their colonial masters (Rome), and 33 years after his death Jerusalem and it's temple was totally destroyed by the Romans so that any other secular history about his time was totally burnt to ashes apart from the ones taken into exile by his faithful followers!

So how do you expect to get any info about Jesus of Nazareth from his contemporaries apart from what was penned down by his own followers?

Fact is, the bible is not written to provide historical information. It is designed to propagate theology and understanding of divinity of Israelis, however, this account is founded on fiction. Nothing is wrong with fiction, it is universal, and shouldn't be mixed with reality. Budaatum, MrPresident and Buzugee admitted the accounts ain't literal incidences. Many churches admitted incidents in Garden of Eden are not literal. It is you, Mr Max and many Christians out there who want to straighten this fictional accounts with historic realities, and in si doing, history is bend and heavily distorted.

A quick look at the account you gave up there, any student of history would understand the account is a reconstruction and revision course which had truth bended and misdirected.

For one, the face-off between Jew and Roman predate Jesus. The Jew wanted a national identity, culture and belief in their own independent state; Romans want political, economical and social dominance. So you see sir, the rancour is based on political differences, and has nothing to do with Christianity.

History accounted that Herod is known as the king of the Jew, a declaration which is provocative to the Jew.

History accounted that Pontious Pilate, the premier of Judea, forcefully put the image of Emperor in the temple, another form of provocation.

History accounted that Gessius Florus seized the funds from the sacred temple treasury, an action that made Jew provoked.

History recorded that some Jewish soldiers called Scirii attacked and killed roman garrison and declared independence.

And war broke out between the state of Rome and Jewish Rebels in 66CE that cost the destruction of the temple in 70CE by Titus.

Mr Max sir, looking at the account above, one would see that the rancour is between Jew and Rome. Christians only distorted this stories to affix Jesus into it. Something you are doing here.

The only historical information depicting persecution of Christians is Emperor Nero clampdown, a retaliation after the roman city was burned allegedly by Christians. The larger war that broke out which led to destruction of the temple has nothing to do with Jesus.


It is important we tell history as it is, without infusing any character into it. Provide the historicity of Jesus, proving he is historical figure and we kick. I would advise you submit historical records and facts from eye witness to buttress your point.

Maximus69:
For your information Sir, two of the gospel writers (Matthew and John) were his closest confidants called Apostles {Matthew 10:2-4} while Luke and Mark are part of his numerous followers who also lived as his contemporaries.

Jehovah's Witnesses wrote everything in those books based on the reports found in the Bible, God's word said out of the mouth of TWO or THREE Witnesses should anything be taken as fact and since there were FOUR different individuals who bore Witness to his historicity, true believers have no reason to doubt their records! Deuteronomy 17:6

Mr Max sir, I am glad you cited the Bible on what should constitute as FACT. The verse states that a evidence from two or three witnesses should be taken as fact. You have refused to prove any of the gospel authors is a witness of Jesus's life and his miracles.

We need a common ground on what a witness is, and what witness is tenable.

Firstly, witness is defined, in my own understanding, one who sees or have personal knowledge of an event. This knowledge can be attained through experience in real time. And only eye witness attestation is tenable, hearsay isn't acceptable.

The four gospel writers didn't see Jesus in real-time or bare witness to his activities in his lifetime.

1. Gospel of Mark is the first manuscript and the oldest, written by Mark the Evangelist in 68AD This person called Mark is the disciple of Apostle. His writings is fondly from secondary sources and not tenable.

2. The Gospel of Luke is written by Luke the evangelist, a disciple of Apostle Paul. He is also the author of Acts of Apostle. In Luke 1:1-3, he indicated that he compiled the accounts from the eye-witness, he isn't the eye witness. Findings shows he copied from the Gospel of Mark, Q and L sources.

3. Gospel of Matthew isn't written by Apostle Matthew. In fact, the book was written many years after Apostle Matthew had died. The author is likely Matthew the evangelist, one of the 70 disciples.

4. Gospel of John was written in 110AD, 80yrs after Jesus had purportedly died, by the unknown disciple Jesus loved. Infusing his own agenda, he spelt out Jesus commissioned 70 disciples instead of 12. And also put himself in Jesus life when other writers do not mention these.


I understand sir, that the church tradition is that the authors are apostle of Jesus 12 disciples. However, evidences have revealed that none of these authors are eye witness to Jesus life and activities. They all wrote majorly on hearsay, not witness, and as such their accounts are not acceptable as facts.

Maximus69:
His historicity has been made more intense in the hearts of true believers globally when all what was written as prophecies foretold by Jesus is happening in our own eyes today!
He foretold so many things though most of what he predicted could be taken as COINCIDENTAL, but one can't go unnoticed by sincere and honest hearted intellectuals!

Jesus foretold a time when the world will be divided by politics and racism! And today many ethnic groups are clamoring for new states regional and local government of their own all based on RACISM!

Jesus also foretold that during that same time his own followers will be tearing away from those whose hearts and minds are been driven by Politics and Racism, and they will form one big and happy global family of peace loving worshipers! Jehovah's Witnesses is an indisputable evidence of this today!

So that's enough for faithful and true believers {John 4:42} whether other contemporaries of Jesus apart from his followers wrote anything for or against him, what we've heard, seen and felt in the midst of his true followers (Jehovah's Witnesses) today has vindicated the Bible as authentic and TRUE!

Thank you Sir!

Lol....

Political differences, war and racism is as old as man, and would be here ever. Politics, war and racism can be found among animals. So Jesus prophecy is nothing new. I think we should focus on the historicity rather than prophetic works which can easily be designed and assigned to anyone.