₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
No one is stopping you from Living your life the way you want with your evidence!

Is it really my evidence? Nope it isn't. It is just a fact and acceptable.

"Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it." (1 Thessalonians 5:21, Living Bible)

Inteltower:
"sometimes ignorance is a fools paradise & and assumption a dark room" - Daniel Mcgie

Really pathetic. Do you understand the quotation above? If there is a ignoramus on this thread, it is probably you.

It isn't in the nature of good Christians to fire insults when their faith is been questioned.

The bible, explicitly dictates that "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, correcting opponents with gentleness..." (2 Timothy 24-25).

If you have been reading your bible and follow it to the last letter, you should have seen 1 peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Look at the emboldened clearly. It says "every man that ask you a reason of the the hope in you". The OP is simply asking for the basis, reason for your faith, confidence and hope.

It added, answer with meek and fear/respect... You are answering with insult, more like a rascal.


Now look at the people I mentioned in the OP. MuttleyLaff, EMILO2STAY, shadeyinka and maximus69. Check their posts on this thread and other threads....even when they don't agree with other views, they address the person with ultimate respect. Did you notice we call ourselves Brother, friend, darling and all sort of kindly addresses. These are the crop of christians I associate with... Not scallywags like you.

If you are a representation of Christianity, you would have lost follower today with your bad manners.

Inteltower:
"there are 3 types of knowledge ranked from the least to the best namely; 1) Assumption 2) Fact 3) Revelation, Revelation is truth & superior" - Rose Andrew

How does this nonsense address the OP?

Inteltower:
all I ask from you since rejecting Christ; thus rejecting God existence is that you please "save my mankind"

I guess your resolution from the trash you wrote was "mankind can't be saved"

Your reasoning is poor. Your Christ and religion have not save mankind. But that isn't the topic now. We are discussing about the Bible account, the reliability of the account, and justification of your faith.

Inteltower:
food for thought (two of the many weaknesses in ur write up)

if Christ was imaginary why would Peter who loved his business of fishing abandon it the second time to go do instructions of preaching the Gospel ?
(was peter one of the disciples of Christ also imaginary ?)

You are taking it as a job, to prove me wrong that Jesus exist but hey, you are yearning opata. Just prove he existed. Peter too does not exist. The zombies that resurrected are fictions. If you have contrary views, present it.

Inteltower:
So in jewish history there was never Pontus Pilate, Pharisees, john the Baptist, Nicodemus, mary etc ?
(because if you removing Christ out of the picture u will remove other personalities, places & prophecies in play during his time)

Excuse me. That Mount Everest exist in reality doesn't mean Yeti is real or that he lives on top of the mount.

Just prove that Jesus existed and let deal with your submission.

Inteltower:
ur point is we shouldn't believe the Bible but ignorantly believe history & arechological findings generated by men.

wow I don't know ur mission here but be careful
ur ignorance reeks

I will respond with these two bible verses

“The naive or inexperienced person[is easily misled and believes every word he hears, but the prudent man is discreet and astute.” (Proverbs 14:15)
The Christian apostle Paul wrote: "Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)


All in all, you've said nothing. I hope your next response will be better, matured and reasonable.

aadoiza:
The OP kept banging the word 'scholars' in my big ears, now my simple questions: 1. who are these scholars(names)? What faith(s) do they profess?
Your answers will determine my approach to your epistle.

You are either too lazy by not taking your time to make a simple Google search on 'historicity of Exodus' or you are dumb from not seeing that the OP is focusing on more than one account, not relying on one academian submission, and may not list out the names of the scholars as they are too many.

The OP covers creation story, Noah global flood, exodus, babylon captivity and exile. Even on the Exodus alone, I can list tons of scholar who deducted the narrative is fable.

1. Israel Finkelstein : He is an Israeli archaeologist. A Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University . He is active in the archaeology of the Levant and an applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history. He told The Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative of the Exodus, the Jews' wandering in Sinai or Joshua's conquest of Canaan . On the alleged Temple of Solomon , Prof Israel said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.

2. Zahi Hawass is an Egyptian archaeologist , Egyptologist , and former Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs. He worked at archaeological sites in the Nile Delta, the Western Desert , and the Upper Nile Valley. He wrote on his findings regarding Exodus of Israelite from Egypt: Really, it's a myth [...] This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.


3. Prof. Ze'ev Herzog He is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Base on the summary of his work, he wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

I have provided at names of at least three scholars, their field of expertise and summary of their works. You don't like their job and findings, that is your headache.

Can we now deal with the issue at hand?

MuttleyLaff:
I am 10000% sure you unquestionably believe in Olodumare and dont ever contest Olodumare's existence. Two can play this game FOLY, have verifiable and substantiated evidences of Oludumare? Or it simply, is a case of conviction, like what I have of Jesus, hmm, lol?

Olodumare does not interfere in human activities and realities.

Can you quite red herring pls? Let us focus on Jesus and the bible.

MuttleyLaff:
Belief in Jesus, is not a do or die literally business FOLY. Seems something about Jesus is on your mind, tugging at you and this has led you to go open this thread.

I visited the church, I told you. And the pastor subtly sent me out. Asked me to stop asking questions in his church and directed me to have encounter with God in my house. I have been going to church since 4 months now.....but hey, it blows my head, can't swallow the dogmatism been reeled out there.

I am doing what the pastor asked me. 1Thessalonians 5:21 says one should dig deep and find the truth. I dug and found the account myth.

shadeyinka:
You set up a grub of lies based upon the truth and you expect me to correct a pathological liar's script!?
God forbid. You can choose whatever you want to believe. Some people even believe that the earth is flat. My argument changes nothing.

Therefore, my strength is for more productive and sincere discuss.

Did I say I was right? Nope. I found some substantial evidence that exposes the bible accounts as myth. It is your duty to present evidence that the account in the bible is reality.

EMILO2STAY:
the city of tyre and sidon spoken of in the bible was once considered to be fables until it was discovered. No documentation recorded of pontus pilate until an evidence of him was discovered. I can give you more but no time now.

That the name of a town, cities, person or animal is mentioned in a tale doesn't make it truth.

EMILO2STAY:
there is no smoke without fire. For different cultures across the world who have never met to hold a legend so similar is a pointer to the fact that it happened world wide, but not only that, it bears a striking resemblance to the account of the bible. This is an evidence that there was once a global flooding. Even main stream science admitted a catastrophic flooding on the earth but only to say that it was not world wide. Any body who looks at the fossil records and how some animals were perfectly petrified with so much detail will admit it takes flooding and a short time for such to happen.

Many cultures use tales and myth to convey messages, and not treating myth as historical fact. The bible as retorted by Christians is that the whole account is factual base on historic happenings. The myth is actually what it is, fiction and folktales with no substance in reality. Equating both account is fallacy, making your own case implausible. Myth cannot authenticate reality.

The Noah account is dated to be around 5000yrs ago, and the fossil found dates back to millions of yrs. How does the two correlate?

EMILO2STAY:
these are evidence of a world wide catastrophic event brought upon by water and has been scientifically proven.
Carbon dating is a faulty system of dating as it has been shown to be very unreliable. Even a living snail was carbon dated to have died thousands of years ago, no real scientist regards carbon dating. Soft tissues and red blood cells were found in the bone of a tyranausarus rex, something which is impossible if it were over 60million years old. Have you witnessed the formation of a rock before? There are rocks with foot prints of both man and animals on them telling you that they were once like a mud . The grand canyon in america shows sign of flooding which cannot be denied There is no evidence of this world been older than six thousand years old. It is a proven fact through historical records that All human beings migrated from the near east around babylonia which os the area of the earliest recorded civilization.

Can you present evidence to the emboldened. Living snail dating back to thousands of years. I will appreciate that sir.

EMILO2STAY:
flavius josephus gave an account of the the ark and stated that it can still be seen on the mountains of ararat as at his own time. Now given the deplorable condition of the wooden object it might be difficult to tell wether it was noahs ark or not. But there definitely exist a large object of petrified wooden structure that lies on that mountain till this day, wether it was noahs ark or not one cannot tell precisely

Josephus record is not an eye witness account. The discovery of the Ark have been exposed as hoax and total fraud. You can present your evidence if you have one.

EMILO2STAY:
the message of the person and the impact of his message is an evidence of the existence of the person as such a thing is not possible without the person not existing. The gospels are copies of copies of accounts of men who witnessed christ. The apostle Paul did not doubt the existence of christ, he saw christ in his glorified form and this is his reason for becoming a Christian himself.. The epistles of Paul is an eye witness record, the writings of John the revelator was an eye witness record. These men saw christ in his glorified form.

1. Lady justice is important to the whole world as she constitute orderliness, law and justice among the people. Lady Justice however doesn't exist.

2. The gospel of Matthew, Luke and John largely copied from the gospel of Mark. The gospel of mark was written several decades after Jesus was dead. And scholars consensus is that the author of gospel of mark do not have understanding of geography, politics and popular figures of Jesus time. Till date, the author of gospel of Mark is unknown, and definitely not Jesus disciple. The author probably is recounting tradition and popular belief of the Jew, and not an eye witness.

3. I don't know what you call 1 Cor 15:3, 14 and 17 is an indication of doubt and fear.

4. Apostle Paul according to the scripture didn't see Jesus, he read about him in the scripture and the Creed. Much of the Paul account is recorded 60yrs after Jesus death, there is no way he is an eye witness of Jesus.

EMILO2STAY:
The man christ Jesus cannot be a work of fiction because the impact of his teaching and the religion he founded has continued to shake the world till this day. But not only that the prophecies foretold by the gospels is witnessed by all today. If christ does not exist then who founded Christianity? Why do Christians exist today? Even after so much deadly effort by the romans and the catholic church to exterminate them?
If christ is a work of fiction then who is responsible for that work of fiction can you name any body who is responsible for that work of fiction?.

Buddha wrote many philosophical thoughts which shake the whole Asia. The adherent of buddhism practise the religion till date but we all know that Buddha is fiction, not born with the the help of elephant.

We also know that Mohammed didnt flew up and cut the moon into half even when we have billions of Muslims across the world. That moon cutting story is fiction.

All these ain't different from the account of Jesus and the religion, Christianity.

macof:
Folykaze the man. You are back again

Comrade, how things?

I am always here though anonymous. How are you doing?

budaatum:
The messenger is irrelevant, unless by messenger you mean God! You don't even know who the messenger is to be honest, because that could be the author of the scriptures you speak of and you don't exactly have much detail about those authors. But that still does not invalidate the message. It is still beneficial that we love our neighbours and our enemies moreso.

The message is as important as the messenger. In a case the messenger is exposed as intelligent construction or hoax, the message burns, vaporize and won't hit target. Apostle Paul particularly saw that the messenger is important, more important than the message. Reason he said in 1 Cor 15 that if Jesus wasn't dead as accounted in the creed, the whole faith and mission is vanity. Though he didn't justify the messenger is real, but he revealed the messenger is more important than any other thing.

budaatum:
You are likely thinking, no, the messenger is the Jesus Christ or the other characters in the book, but you would be missing the point that those people are actually part of the message, just as the Buddha is a massive part of the message of Buddhism as those who bother to study what we have of his life today would understand.

This whole thing have been addressed in the OP. The Christian faith is founded on Jesus teaching which stemmed from creation story, Noah flood, exodus and Babylon captivity. The whole account have no root in history. Simple.

budaatum:
I have a particular example you might want to consider. Please see this thread and let me know if you detect an error in perspective. Its one we call the strawman fallacy, as in, when one sets up one's own perspective and claims that is the only perspective everyone has and must have and there cannot possibly be any other. Another word for it is blindness, and its based on ones own narrow ignorant parochial view. You may see it in how the respondent points a finger at others without noticing his other fingers are pointing to himself. And despite how much we try to make him (and you) reflect and see what is meant, his response is "Budda would be a great magician. Pointing to the right when his trick is developing in the left", though I doubt you would understand the similarities.

This is about the ability to read and understand. There are levels, and not everyone is on the same one.

Your effort at making me see the message and dropping the messenger is a twist which taste bad. Point to the right direction, let us discuss the messenger sir. It is far important than you think

MuttleyLaff:
I see you conveniently did havent anything to say about Ọṣun who turned into that river at Osogbo, lol and who is worshipped plus yearly is offered sacrifices, lol.

You out of all people should know better that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour of the world is not a myth, fantasy nor fiction.

The whole Osun stories like Sango is allegorical. The essence Osun river is what people worship. The deity is explained through Osun personal nature.

And brother, you are the one telling me, an ignorant folk, that Jesus isn't myth or fantasy without presenting evidence from eye witness to prove he existed.

I have shown in the the OP that the gospel account are not acceptable with the bogus inconsistencies and contradictions. You darling friend should present your evidence and let us analyze it.

Let me ask Muttley, is your faith based on on unverifiable and unsubstantiated statements, and arguably on falsity?

budaatum:
The Republic is a fictional philosophical work written by a guy called Plato. It is fictional because the dialogue he uses to express his philosophy never happened. Some even claim that some of the people engaging in the dialogue never existed so it isn't historical at all. But I have faith that if you read, or listen to it, as is this case, you would become much smarter and wiser than you currently are, and it might help you understand how even made up parables enhance human living.

Budda would be a great magician. Pointing to the right when his trick is developing in the left.

The OP isn't about the message but the messenger. Maybe just maybe budda is admitting the messenger is fictional and that we shouldn't bother about that. But hey, the reality of the messenger put more relevance on the message. In the face when the messenger is hoax, the message is implausible.

shadeyinka:
If half of what you've written is the pure truth, it would have been worthy of a reply but it isn't, so why waste precious time.

I will ask you then:
What are your suggestions to Christians? What do you offer as a replacement? For if you have none, it's better to have minded your own business!

Isn't this funny? You are suggesting my submission have no iota of truth yet you refused to tell us what the truth is. Lol

What is my suggestion and possible replacement? Thing is, I am not promoting any religion because they all sell one thing to the people, illusion of hope. Religion is the opium of the masses, shouldn't be taken away from them but should be shown that what they believe is hot air and ultimate hopelessness.

While we should leave that aside and focus on Pauline's duty of verification according to 1 Thessalonians 5:21. And his fear in 1 corinthian 15. Can you tell us if you consider Bible accounts as truth? What would you remain faithful if you realise the bible accounts are fables, having no prints in history?

MuttleyLaff:
I know you are well versed in ATR, say, particularly talking about Sango, for an example and I am 10000% sure you have no qualms about Shango without wings/propulsion, ascended to heaven, lol

I will after you've first shown me historical document, written by eye witness about the person of Shango and/or Ọṣun who turned into the river at Oshogbo.

Seriously, I knew you will bring Sango or whatever into the discussion. But sorry to burst your bubble faster than expected dear.

1. Sango stories in Ifa are all traditional stories. Ifa/Orunmila are known as Erigi alo (tale teller).

2. Not a single Babalawo ever claimed that there is a figure who breathe fire in Oyo kingdom. They all agreed the account are metaphor or allegory used to convey messages.

3. There existed a Man called Sango in Oyo Kingdom. There is a documented fact the person existed but he doesn't breathe fire.

4. As a matter of fact, pataki or narration of Ifa are historical legends defined as a legend constructed in historical figures purposely to convey a message beyond such figure.

You see?

How is this different from Bible and Christianity...

1. The Jesus stories are told as fact and reality even when there is no evidence.

2. Christians like EMILO2STAY are claiming Bible hold historical facts. And the incident of ascension or the zombie invasion happened as reality.

3. Not single account in the bible about Jesus match any documents about incidence. Not a single historian write about ascension or zombie invasion. They are all lies.



Then I begin to wonder how you and your colleague in Christ could hold fast to these accounts as truth when they are infact the opppsite. Doesn't the knowledge that Jesus didn't exist as a person shaken your faith in him? Should your faith be based on fantasy and fiction or reality and fact?

EMILO2STAY:
yes the Christian faith is centered on the gospels, Jewish history and the teachings of Jesus christ.
But to say the bible accounts has no historical basis is displaying ignorance.

I believe the bible not just because it is a Christian book but because it is a historical book that tells the real truth about our world and the major event that has happened still happening and yet to happen.

some of the the accounts recorded in the bible were dismissed as myths and fables until they were discovered. This goes to show that the bible is telling the truth even if some account have not been found in other historical records.

As per the emboldened, I will appreciate it if you can tell us one of the accounts in the bible that was dismissed as fable, and later admitted or discovered it is fact.

All through the time, efforts to beam light into bible accounts and narratives have expose those accounts are father from been reality.

EMILO2STAY:
The biblical flood story is one which cannot be disputed by anybody in this world unless that person has abandoned the use of their common sense.
The evidence of a global flood is rife all over the world with every tribe and cultures across the world having their own legend and tales of a world wide flood.
The last ice age, the shifting continent, the fossil records the petrified trees and animals the black sea the lakes, the rock formations the grand canyon, these are just a few things that point to a global flood because these things cannot take place with out a sudden catastrophic water.

1. Myth and fables from different cultures across the world is not equivalent to fact. And the fact that there are parallel flood fables across different cultures doesn't make Noah account in the genesis truth.

2. Ice age, shifting of the continent, fossil records and rock formations are not evidence for Noah flood account.
The Noah flooding as recorded in the bible happened possibly 5000 yrs ago. Ice age and fossils date back to millions of years ago. Rocks have been forming, currently forming and would form in the future. None of this points to Noah story.

3. Noah flood account have brought many hoaxes and conspiracies from people who claimed they found the ark somewhere around Armenia. Modern findings have exposed the Ark discoveries as fraud.

So far so good, there is no tangible evidence that can punctuate that Noah flood account is truth. I will appreciate if you can provide evidence sir.

EMILO2STAY:
The historical account of the man "Jesus " might be little but the impact he made is all over the world as he is the founder of the Christian faith which has shaken the entire world till this day. If you study and understand history as regards the major event of this world you will realize that most which happened and is still happening and yet to happen is all because of the true Christians of this world christianity in it self will not be so wide spread if their was not a person like Jesus christ who founded it.

Our Christian faith is based on the teachings of christ which not only leads to the promised eternal life but also leads to living a fulfilling life here on earth.
If the teachings of christ is to be applied on by every person in this world then there would no wars, no famines, no hatred, no greed, no jealousy, no lying, no fighting, no envy, no false accusations, no stealing. But peace, joy, selflessness, love etc.

But world system is corrupt and so cannot do with out wars, greed, hatred. Which is exactly what the bible says. So no Christian should have a shred of doubt about the authenticity of the bible because every thing the bible says has played, is playing and is still yet to play out

The OP focuses on the person, not the message of the person of Jesus. The OP wants to know the basis of your faith, upon what it is founded. Considering now that you know that the characters from Jesus down to Adam are fictional, would you still remain a Christian?

Jesus the person described in the bible does not exist. There could be a historical person known as Jesus or Christ. My point is that the person known as Jesus in the bible, performing wonders, flying without wings, resurrecting zombies, doing all powerful things before people should have eye witness records. However, the earliest record about him was only written 60yrs after he is dead. None of the gospel is an eye witness record. Apostle Paul confessed about the creed and meeting with Peter for days. And the many contradictions and inconsistency reveal that this person does not exist.

If I were to ask.... What are the evidences that prove Jesus existed. Do you have an eye witness account that prove the existence of this man?

MuttleyLaff:
Let me rephrase that then, friend.

The short answer is, it is drawn from and/or based on, conviction, faith and available/known historic facts out in there, my dear friend and brother from another mother.

If there were any half truths anywhere in my faith, I'll be the first to draw attention to it.

Everything about our Lord Jesus Christ and Saviour of the world are absolute truth. There are no lies to be found about Him.

Oh well, the available records about Jesus, within and outside the bible are all retorted traditional stories. Available historical facts indicate that such personality that flew without wings or propelled engine into the sky does not exist. Bible recorded at the point when this man called Jesus died, there was zombies everywhere. If the account is truth, and witnessed by many people, there would have been records of the zombie incident. So far so food sir, there is no historical fact which point to the existence of the person called Jesus.

I will appreciate, any historical document, written by eye witness about the person of Jesus. Thanks

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s1/images/MuttAmin.gif[/img]
The short answer is, it is drawn from and/or based on, conviction, faith and a little bit of historic facts here and there, my dear friend and brother from another mother

A little historical fact is not enough. It is synonymous to half truth which is falsity. If your faith is half truth dear friend, isn't this same as saying your faith is based on falsehood and hope is vain?

Ob3kpa:
Source??

Bible and archaeological reports

The christian faith is centred on gospel of Jesus and Jewish history as narrated in the bible. The account of Jesus's life and all his theological teachings stem directly from the Genesis creation narrative, Noah flood, Israelite exodus, and Babylonia exile down to the birth of the so called messiah. But since it is found that many of the accounts have no basis in history, how come Christians still hold onto their faith? In the face of reality, vividly exposing that the accounts and narratives from Genesis till the end is fiction, and the characters captured in the entire bible are legends, on what exactly are Christians rooting their faith? Are Christians really trusting on folktales to bring them heaven/paradise they hope for?

The bible accounts, as interesting as it sound have no single basis in history. The creation story, many churches have accepted that it is metaphoric or philosophical which shouldn't be taken as happening at a historic time or place. The catholic and many Christian denominations admitted that the story of Adam and Eve is more allegorical, specially designed for theological purposes, without any basis in history. The Noah and the global flooding account too have no basis in history. Up till this moment, not a single shred of evidence have been found to buttress there was any global flooding on this planet. The global flooding and ark narration have so many parallels which further exposes the mythical nature of the account, having no basis in history. Up till date, no single shred of evidence have been presented that Noah or his Ark existed.

One of the story I loved back then as a child is the Exodus. The account detail Israelis enslavement in Egypt, emancipation by Moses, sojourn through the wilderness and the military campaign that rounded up Canaan. Findings have shown that the whole Exodus is pure work of fiction, not having any fact. There is no Moses, Israelite were never in or enslaved in Egypt, Pharaoh and his people were not plagued by any Yahweh, the Red sea was not parted, the wildernesses sojourn have no basis in history, and Canaan was not overran by Israel military forces. Archaeological evidence revealed that all the accounts about Israel in the bible is myth.

The monarchy reign of David and Solomon in the United kingdom of Israel is all false. Archaeological findings expose that Israel is a small clan in Canaan, having no king. There is no evidence or traces of the Solomon temple. The captivity by Babylon is more reconstructions of facts though. However, the bible rather provides half truth laced with propaganda which makes the whole account unacceptable as historical fact.

The Jesus account is majorly work of fiction. While many would argue that there is a historical personality known as Jesus as recorded by Apostle Paul, Gospels, and non Christian sources like Josephus and Tacitus, the fact remains that these are not eye witness account which can easily be dismissed. The earliest manuscript that recorded the person of Jesus is written somewhere around 60yrs after Jesus crucifixion. The gospel of Matthew, Luke and John all copied from accounts in the book of Mark. The authorship of the gospel of Mark is a subject if debate. However, the general consensus among the scholars is that whoever wrote the gospel of Mark is not providing an eye witness account but simply relaying heavily distorted traditions.

The Zombies invasion and the wingless ascension of Jesus is a popular incidence which would supposedly be witnessed by many people, but no one expect in the gospels wrote about it. Josephus and Tacitus mentioned that a person called Jesus or Christ but left out the major events recorded in the gospel. Josephus original writings has not been found, and scholars argued that the word 'Jesus' found in the Testimonium Flavianum is Christian interpolation. Tacitus was born 25yrs after the death of Jesus. None of this writings provided an eye witness account. They are majorly tradition with no factual basis.

The gospels have loads of inconsistency and contradictions. Apostle Paul admitted he learned the creed. As a matter of fact, Paul's sister and nephew were converted Christians before he converted. He also confessed he met with James and Peter for days, many years after his conversion. So it is nothing new, Paul converted base on tradition he was told to.

At a point, Paul questioned the basis of his faith, exactly what I wanted Christians to do. Apostle Paul, who didn't met Jesus or witnessed his death queried if Jesus truly died and resurrected. He questioned the historicity of Jesus crucifixion, noting with doubt that his faith and missionary job is in vain if peradventure there is no Jesus that died and resurrected. The inquiry furthermore buttressed that Paul only knew the traditional story of Jesus, and not the historical fact. Reason he added that one should find and stick to truth only.

My questions to my brothers who are Christians, how do you keep onto faith knowing that all the narration recorded in the bible have no basis in history? Where exactly is the confidence of hope drawn from knowing that the Bible stories are fables having no substances in history? How can you strongly trust that a Jesus who never exist as accounted would take you to heaven/paradise? What is the basis of your faith; historical fairies or historical facts?

Cc shadeyinka, EMILO2STAY, Maximus69, MuttleyLaff

MuttleyLaff:
Thank you for your minimised responses, as I can see you answered the questions playing smart/clever instead of plainly being outright sincere, honest and/or first give binary responses and then maybe after launch into explanations.

I know you too well my friend, and know what you are capable of doing. The mines you set are known to me, I need to take each steps smartly, cleverly and wisely.

MuttleyLaff:
You seem to be implying that, it's impossible for God to physically extend outwards from Himself or beyond Himself, lol. You seem to be saying it is beyond God's power/ability/capability, beyond God's technical know how to pull something like that successfully through, lol. You seem to think and believe, that it is not within God's power to concurrently exist in heaven and for 33¹₂ on earth at the same time, lol. You seem to me to be underestimating God. I believe nothing is beyond God because that is the essence of the meaning of His name, however God is capable of doing anything, there however some things He will never do, not because He unable, but because due to His nature, He won't do, lol.

Read what I wrote in my previous post

This is not about my belief. I may believe God has a blue face, it is my subjective viewpoint, not the fact. Our discussion should be grounded on facts from bible, not my viewpoint or belief.

I, sincerely do not want to know your subjective viewpoint or discuss what you believe or think. Simply draw out facts from the scripture.

MuttleyLaff:
FOLY, I have asked you straightforward questions, there isn't anything vague in them at all. Ore, friend, if you agree and accept that God is Omnipresent, then whats this about God you saying practically impossible to be here and there at the same time sir. hmm?

Firstly, I stated in my previous post that, "Practically impossible to be here and there at the same time sir. In fact, there is no reference to the claim that he can be everywhere at the same time." I deduced the negative, rightly because I haven't confirm from the bible that God can simultaneously be in multiple places at the same time. Here, I am not disputing he has the ability. The bone of contention is if it is recorded in the bible that he had been in multiple places at the same time. If he had, provide evidences using bible as your support.

Secondly, I am not an advocate of Omni-epithets. It's superficial appellation that have very little or no atom of truth in it. Good example is Omni-benevolence which contravene the sadistic attitude of God toward the young man, who without his sin, sin of his parents and his past generation, was thrown into darkness by been blind, why would a benevolent being keep a young man blind from birth? Maybe he is sadistic.

The Omni-epithets mean nothing to me sir. Our main focus should be drawing facts about the nature of God and Jesus, if it were a singularity or tripartite. What I know, and very sure of, is that God according to the Bible claimed that he is One, shares Authority with No one, or have anyone equal to him. If you have contrary points, please present them sir.

MuttleyLaff:
FOLY, hmmm, with the utmost and deservedly due respect, please before I respond to each and/or all above, please first give me your answer to the below question. It and its subsets aim to set the tone, set the stage, as it were, on which to properly and correctly build this discourse we are having, on, lol.

Ok

MuttleyLaff:
#1a/ FOLY, do you see God, as not having the ability/power/means/know how/capability of concurrently being God, the Father and Jesus Christ or you see God, as having the ability/power/means/know how/capability of concurrently being God, the Father and Jesus Christ, lol?

Sincerely, this question is vague because God descriptions include having Ultimate Power and Will to be whatever he so desire. Therefore, God, in this context Jehovah has the ability, power, means, know how and capacity to manifest himself. However, there is no reference in the bible that he concurrently lives as Jehovah and Jesus.

MuttleyLaff:
#1b/ Do you believe that it is impossible for God to exist at the same time, as in meaning, be in two places at the same (e.g. be in heaven and at the same time be on earth) or you don't believe that it is possible for God to exist at the same time, as in meaning, be in two places at the same time (e.g. be in heaven and at the same time be on earth)

Practically impossible to be here and there at the same time sir. In fact, there is no reference to the claim that he can be everywhere at the same time.

MuttleyLaff:
#1c/ FOLY, do you believe God is capable of projecting Himself, as in meaning God has the power/means/technical know how, to physically extend outwards from and/or beyond Himself, to the point/extent of becoming corporeal, lol?

Another vague question there sir. This is not about my belief. I may believe God has a blue face, it is my subjective viewpoint, not the fact. Our discussion should be grounded on facts from bible, not my viewpoint or belief.

However, I will address your question drawing references from the bible. God has physically projected himself to Abraham, Jacob and Moses. These are some of the people that saw him physically. So yes, it is a fact that he can physically manifest himself.

There is this mine in your question, "physically extend outwards from and/or beyond Himself"... Extend and beyond is depicting a separate picture, different entirely from presenting oneself physically,that is simultaneously maintaining both physical and spiritual status. If this is the case, God cannot do it, base on past records.

CaveAdullam:
If Jesus Christ wasn't the father why did He not give Thomas the answer or way to the Father?

You have abandoned John 14:9-11 and grasping at straws. Even at that, your submissions are watery.

Jesus said he is the way, no one goes to the father without him. This is an indication that he (Jesus) is the subordinate of Jehovah. Jesus didn't mention, at no point in the bible that he is Jehovah. If he did, show us.

CaveAdullam:
Isaiah 9:6
KJV:For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The verse reads :and his name shall be called... It didn't say his name is... Two different cases

I answer my father's name on many occasions, does that makes me my father? He is a personality and I am a distinctive and separate person. What is it you don't understand?

CaveAdullam:
Jesus Christ was not a representative of God on earth oga. It was the Godhead manifesting Himself in the flesh.

You are the one telling us God killed himself to appeals himself. Not so? Prove your case. Don't tell me your own viewpoint, dig into the bible and show us where Jesus said he is Jehovah.

CaveAdullam:
2 Corinthians 5:19
KJV:To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Another hogwash.

Holy spirit is in believers, does that mean believers are same as holy spirit?

CaveAdullam:
In a criminal investigation you don't need a perfect replay of the crime scene before you swing into investigations or conclude justice. You come to justice by summing reasonable circumstantial evidences even when the puzzle is not totally giving the clear picture but at least a reasonable one.

Inconsequential

CaveAdullam:
Jesus Christ is Jehovah in the Body. If He is a representative of Jehovah then Jehovah was foolish and powerless in the almost 34 years Jesus Christ spent on earth until His ascension. Because Jesus Christ is the power and wisdom of God.



1 Corinthians 1:24
KJV:But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

If anyone is sent as a representative will he posses all the wisdom and power of the one that sent him?

Where in the verse above did you see the word 'all'? It simply says Jesus is the power and wisdom of God. It didn't say he is ALL. Stop making things up.

You seriously have a gap between sole management and administrative system. But I can help you.

1. In sole management, everything can be completed on your singular authority and might.

2. In Administrative system, power is separate within the
bureaucrats.

Now, in the bureaucracy, the lowest person in the Pyramid is also an image of the top most person. At that moment, the lowest bares the power and authority of the topmost person.

So sir, I don't know what else you don't understand here.

CaveAdullam:
Colossians 1:15-17
KJV:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Image mean representation.

Get a dictionary next time if you don't understand a word instead of embarrassing yourself.

CaveAdullam:
In broad daylight Jesus Christ is claiming to be the Father His disciples seek and here you are asking me if He claimed to be Jehovah or where it is written?

Nowhere in John 14:9-11 did Jesus mentioned that he is the Father. You are only cooking that up.

These two statements : 'Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.' and 'The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority' is a confirmation that Jesus acted as a representative of God.

And in case you don't know how representative job work, you can Google that.


While at that, you still have the duty of showing us where Jesus said he is Jehovah.

CaveAdullam:
John 14:9-11 is enough to prove that the Godhead is one expressing Himself in three offices. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

If you are not able to comprehend that simple passage because of your opinion, then, it is not my fault.

Godhead is one, more like the royal circle or the presidency or marriage. However, in the presidency, even though the SGF is referred to as the Presidency, he/she is not the GCFR.

More like in Marriage institution. Two human; a man and woman become one. The oneness is marriage, it doesn't make both couple a single entity.


If I were to fire more shots, John 17:20-22 is the best projectile because it explains that believers are one.
What does this oneness mean? Marriage and or brotherhood. And what constitute this oneness, it is different actors and characters.

CaveAdullam:
John 14:9-11
ESV:Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9
ESV:Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10
ESV:Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
11
ESV:Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

If I may ask who is the Saviour of Christians, God or the Lord Jesus Christ?.

What sort of warped scriptural backup is this?

Where does it say Jesus is the same as father?

For ff sake, a woman can declare that whoever see her has seen her husband. A representative can also say he doesn't speak on his own authority but of the person that sent him.

None of the two claims make wife become Husband or representative become the face of authority. So I don't know where you get the crap like Jesus is Jehovah.

ABCthings:
@FOLY


This is a good question.
We have John 1:1 stating Jesus as God
And John 14: 28 stating that God is greater than Jesus.

Hmm... Wait lemme consult the elders.

1 cor 8:5. There are many that are called God both in heaven and on Earth.

Jesus is God, no dispute. But is he Jehovah?

Why are you evading the Presidency, SGF and AGF analogy? Tell us if Jesus is the SGF or GCFR

CaveAdullam:
Where are you standing?

Do you now believe in God?

No knowledge is worthless. I still read bible and sometimes quran. Studies more Ifa corpus. I strive to always know.

Can we focus on the topic now?

CaveAdullam:
Is FOLY no longer an atheist or am I missing monikers?

FOLY are you the one?

Yes I am!

Knowledge is larger than existence. It has no boundaries and limit. I choose to know, for it guides one paths to truth where salvation stream down from.

ABCthings:
except none is lesser than the others. Take it like a triangle.
Each angle with different name but they are still the same equilateral triangle. None is less than the other.

Yes, I know there is one Pyramid or Triangle. And in this Triangle like you call it, there are three different actors or characters, just like there are different actors that form the Presidency. But hey, there is only one GCFR and some sub offices like AGF and SGF.

Even when Jesus said in John 14:28 that Jehovah is greater than him, and he is a subject to Jehovah authority, I wonder where and how you trinitarians conclude that Jesus equates or is the same person as Jehovah.

Don't forget we ain't disputing if Jesus is God. Judges are referred to as God too. Our focus is if Jesus is Jehovah. Like I asked, if Jesus is the SGF or the GCFR.

Also note, the oneness mean nothing. Husband and wife can be one. But are they really single entity? Isn't there hierarchy in marriage? Or the wife isn't subject of the Husband even when they are unison?

So sir, using that previous analogy, tell us if Jesus is the SGF or the GCFR

MuttleyLaff:
FOLY, without any shadow of doubt, Jesus is God and is same One, as God, the Father. Now, here's your question back at you, but standing on its head, lol. Do you see God, has not at all, able to or not capable of concurrently being God, the Father and Jesus Christ or not, lol? Well, you've likely, often heard it said, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Something to be done right is exactly what it's all about and so what God did. This is a matter of the classsic DIY aka Do-It-Yourself. Read on, and from the start of the bottom half on this post, for more on this God's DIY Project.

I will only fast rope on the X spot. You have made a statement but you need to be more definite with your words. Like many Trinitarians, I accept Godhood is one but there are different character in the triangle. This is more like the Presidency. The next problem is how we define Oneness and what constitute oneness.

A good shot from Gen 2:24 and Matt 19:4-6 define union of a man and a woman as oneness.

If I were to fire more shots, John 17:20-22 is the best projectile because it explains that believers are one.

What does this oneness mean? Marriage and or brotherhood. And what constitute this oneness, it is different actors and characters.

Addressing your question, God could take the form of Man. And that implies that he wouldn't be on his throne at the moment he is on Earth. Looking at Heb 9:14, that verse stated that Jesus sacrificed himself to God. This tells that Jesus who offered himself is an entity and God who accepted the sacrifice is a separate entity. The logic of sacrifice is one gives and another receives. Unless you Trinitarians want to tell us that God killed himself to appeal himself, the sacrifice of Jesus dictates that more than one actor is involved.

MuttleyLaff:
Of course, you know that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree nah, so the answer is, yes, Jesus is the same personality as Yahweh. It even gets better FOLYKAZE, because aside they both having the same personalities of each other, they actually equally share a same powerhouse known as the Spirit/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.

You know me too well that I can't accept statement from you without supporting Bible quotation. Please show me the verse from the bible that said Jesus is Jehovah.

I wouldn't accept Adonai and Lord game as found in Matt 22:44. I want you to direct me to where Bible said Jesus is Jehovah.

MuttleyLaff:
In Aso Rock setting AGFs/SGFs make statements, but it doesnt work like that in the Godhead and/or Godhood. Nobody makes statements except for when authorized and/or empowered to do so. There's reason celestial beings/cherubims/seraphims are called angelic host of heaven

Yes, I know Godhood doesn't operate like Aso Rock. In Aso Villa, there is some of Democracy unlike Autocracy form of Government practiced in Heaven. And one indisputable fact about the heaven Government is that there are subordinates, councils and hierarchies. These subordinates are Angels and Holy Spirits who run errands. The Elders and Queens of heaven form hierarchies. And the Gods (children of El) form the Government. We also have the oppositions. In all these, there are more than one personalities.

What I seem not fathomable is how you accepted God has higher authority over his subjects (Holy Spirit) and can send them at will anywhere; but sees same subject as equal in authority as God.

Jesus even declared in John 14:28 that God is greater than him.

Are these not enough to make you see through that Trinity is a set of three.

That reminds me. Trinity is from the word Trinita (latin) which mean three-ness or property of occurring three at once. In Greek, trinity is triado which mean a set of three.

From the definition of the word, bible and argument in support, doesn't this clearly mean Jesus and God are different personalities in one Godhood?

MuttleyLaff:
This is another good question, and one such that I have really and truly loved asking other people. I love asking the question, because, it gives a gauge of knowing what they know about that word, God.

I am not going to jump to defining the word God, without first, laying the groundwork, to pave the way to defining the word God, lol, so to make it is easier, for you and any interested, to see the road I travelled on to come and/or arrive at this destination definition.

"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame.
Their minds are set on earthly things."
- Philippians 3:19

FOLY, let's first and foremost agree together, that there is only ONE God. There are, of course, many and/or varied gods, as there are human beings, thats talking of someone like you and every other human being, who naturally are gods. Also, now you yourself for instance, can be classified, as a different kind of god because of how adept you are in the knowledge of Yoruba spirituality.

Moving on, there are human beings/inanimate object/things deified as gods. There is apotheosis or self-deification, as in, meaning, the self elevation to the status of a god so to be worshipped (e.g. Egyptian Pharaohs, Roman Emperors, Shango, albeit he became god of thunder, lightning and storms after he died, etcetera) There are abstracts, that become gods, when their forces, characteristics and motivations gets a grip on their victims, such that they often end up influenced in unsavoury ways/manners by gods such as the belly/stomach/narcotics/Mammon etcetera. The point, I am making is there the ONE God and there are different types, forms and/or flavors of gods

"I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’—
but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them
(i.e. but I did not make Myself known to them by My holy name, Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH"
- Exodus 6:3

The word, God, obviously, we both accept and know, isnt the name of God, but is a verb word. Incidentally, the name of God, that is built on from the words for "I AM", is too, related to a verb of action. We know, God is known by what He does and that in Exodus 6:3, is exactly what He was communicating to Moses that He appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, but they never witnessed/experienced a demonstration of why He, God, is called/known as "I AM" and that the Israelites and any that cross them or tries to prevent the Israelites from getting to the Promised Land will soon find out, lol.

Lol.

You are saying and want me to agree that God is one. Ain't you the same person that said God is three?

MuttleyLaff:
Anyway, here's the much awaited definition of God. There is only one God, just as there is only one water, and regardless of, whether instead saying water, you call it "omi" in Yoruba, "aqua" in Latin, "ruwa" in Hausa or "mmiri" in Igbo, it is the same water that's H₂O in make up. So, God by definition and/or the meaning of the word God, convey a message, information or import that God,
is the force, and is an Uncreated Living, Intelligent, Omnipresent, Self-Supporting, All-Powerful, Authority, Influence, Self-Existing, Infinite being.

Does this definition applies to Jesus and Holy Spirit. If your answer is yes, explain to me in your own understandings how Holy spirit which you claimed is God is an Uncreated living, intelligent, omnipresent, self-existing, infinite being.

And just in case your answer is no, explain why you are dancing all around.

MuttleyLaff:
God, is a force, an influence beyond scientific understanding lol. God is, someone without any bound, without limit, without an end. God is the first and the last, God oxymoronically has no beginning and no end. God is a supernatural being, someone bigger and larger than any specified number, even three or trinity. This means, dont put God in a box. It explains why God in His infinite wisdom didnt allow the the word trinity to be printed black and white kokoro out in the Bible.

Kindly explain how Jesus fits in here sir.

MuttleyLaff:
God, can send Himself on an errand, and did send Himself to earth, in the form of Jesus Christ because God simultaneously can be in more than one place at a time

Back this statement up with bible verses.

MuttleyLaff:
(i.e. God can be in Heaven and on earth, at the same time) Note that, Jesus didnt correct people that addressed Him as God, for example, where and when said: "My Lord, My God" to Him

Unless you are playing some hanky panky game with me, you should have known that God or Lord can apply to anyone or anything. It is about perception. For example, Judges were referred to as God in Exo 22:28. Infact, God himself called Judges who are human 'God'. The word is ambiguous and not designated for a singularity. This is why what you supposedly see as a God must have a name. A name is specific and definite. I believe this God you are talking about is Jehovah. If that is his name, Thomas did not call Jesus by the name 'Jehovah'. He simply call him God because the word applies to Jesus and every other things one perceive having authority.
I will appreciate if you can help me with verse where Jesus is called Jehovah.

And please I can see the God/god game, it doesn't worth it (i believe you can do better than that).

MuttleyLaff:
Christ cannot share the same body with God the father, because God is formless. God has no clear definite shape or size. Jesus Christ is the product of God projecting Himself as a human being in the person of Jesus Christ on earth. Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. Why does Jesus Christ need to be a human being on earth?. Fundamentally, it is because one needs a human body to lawfully and have a permitted way to legally operate on earth. God is not going to be a law breaker and be breaking Genesis 1:26-28. Or would you expect Him to?

Isnt this the God that had galvanized and cruised the Earth as human according to Gen 3:8 and Gen 18:1-5. Is this not the God that physically fought with Jacob Gen 32?. And in heaven, he was seen sitting on a throne. Formless on a throne?

If I still understand my bible very well. There is a particular verse where God wondered who is it will go down and deliver mankind. According to the story, Jesus indicated he will go down, left his crown in his throne and asked God to send him. And God sent him.

The story reveals that Jesus and God are different entities. But here my friend is telling me Jesus a slice of God. Hilarious!

MuttleyLaff:
Now, though Jesus is God, He did not think of equality with God, as something to cling to. Instead, He gave up his divine privileges. He took the humble position of a servant and was born as a human being, and so God appeared on earth, in human form, as in, the person of Jesus Christ, God's Son, which means, it is a guarantee and not rocket science, that fathers will always know things that sons will have no idea or knowledge of.

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered.
"No one is good--except God alone.
(i.e. Only God is good. Only God is truly good."
- Luke 18:19

"Jesus said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good.
If you want to have eternal life, you must obey His commandments.""
- Matthew 19:17

At the emboldened. Jesus is God, no dispute. The line of argument is if jesus is Jehovah. You haven't show us how he is.

MuttleyLaff:
No one, can become God. No one can attain the God status. The God status, the devil learned the hard and bitter way, that the position is exclusively for God only. Ultimately, we'll in the true and good sense of the Genesis 1:26 "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness" comment, become like God, but not become God. Nobody can become FOLY, but nothing stops any you might, become like FOLY.

It is confusing when you use the word 'God' instead of the name of God you are referring to.

It is also undisputable, there can never be anyone like Jehovah. But wait, is Jehovah same as the Most High who appeared to Melchizedek. Remember Jehovah only appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and prolly Moses?

MuttleyLaff:
There are no possibilities that there are more than one God. FOLY, there can be only one captain to a boat, as a boat with two and/or more captains, in it, will sink.

Oh well, your proposition support my claim that Jesus isn't same person as Jehovah. You are the one telling us they are same personality.

ABCthings:
What part of " God in three forms(Trinity) " don't you understand?

Or are you just hearing;
God the Father
God the Son
And God the Holyspirit
for the first time?

I am seeing the same thing. Antichristian would better understand if you explain to him what 'God' mean. Maybe, just maybe it is a status or office or form of authority like Office of the President. Always keep at the back of your mind that in the Office of the President, we still have SGF, AGF, Media which are all referred to as Presidency, but none of these sub offices equates to office of the GCFR.

Using that analogy, is Jesus a form of SGF to the president which can be known as The President? Or Jesus is GCFR?

MuttleyLaff:
...

Complement of the Season bro!

If I may ask you, what is your own view on the subject. Do you see Jesus as God and been same as Father? Or see Jesus as God but not same as God the Father.
Let me paint a clearer picture with God's names. Is Jesus same personality as Yahweh,, or they both share same powerhouse (e.g Aso rock villa house the Presidency. In this system, Office of the President has many smaller offices like SGF, AGF, etc. When AGF makes a statement, it is compounded as Presidency or FG, even though the office of the AGF is a small unit in the Office of the President.), thereby both operate as God but different personalities

On a wider sense, how do you define the word 'God'. Can someone or something attain such status; or are there possibilities that there are more than one God?

Thanks

EMILO2STAY:
there is nothing those guys will say that these guys haven't said already. Even a professor of astronomy in Germany was faced with a flat earther in a debate and was torn to shreds. These guys you mentioned are not even scientist so how will they defend something that has no fact behind it? Not even if they are magicians.

Weldone Sir!

LordReed:
LoL! My points are the facts, if you think the facts are weak that is your problem not mine. Happy New Year to you too!

You are right dude. You presented copied and pasted facts which you don't understand fully. Who is saying you ain't firing projectiles, you are firing aimlessly and in all directions.

wickedtuna:
if you have no knowledge on the said topic, why then insult someone on something you know nothing about sir?

Ronaldo go flop in Ice hockey game sure. Football, not ice hockey is his expertise. But Ronaldo may understand the icy game.

I understand the game Emi i playing. Busy pulling strawman strings. That is why I called him Pussy. I have read many of his arguments and found he is good with evasive tactics (escapism). I wish Reed could see these and crush him once and for all.