₦airaland Forum

freshcvv:
Please show me in the bible where any of the apostles got daily stipends or even fixed wages.

Now you see where and how you are caught in your own words by your head knowledge of the word of God. Kindly answer the question. You made a comment and deleted it, while you are trynna do that, freshcvv quoted you. That shows you are not pure delivering the word of God. Am very sorry to say this to you but the only thing you have to explain and justify your action is that you changed your mind. I rather you completely change your mind about all your head knowledge and poisonous teachings you are spreading.

I love you still.

I was waiting at the pool called Bethesda which have five porch. While I waiting to jump into the water after an Angel of the Lord had stirred up the water so I can be made whole of my infirmity. Behold another stepped in and I have to wait for another time when the Angel will stir up the water.

When Jesus saw me, knowing I have being in my condition for 38 years. He said unto me, "Do you want to be made whole?" I answered and said unto him, I have no man to put me into the water after the angel stir up the water.

Jesus said unto me, Rise up, "take up your bed and walk".

ONE OF THEM JUST SAID ALL NIGERIANS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CARRY GUN. ANOTHER SAID MASTUBATION IS NOT A SIN AGAINST GOD, IT YOUR BODY AND GOD GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. ALAS! ANOTHER BACKSLIDING STATEMENT STRAIGHT FROM THE PULPIT AND YET THE PEOPLE THAT ARE CALLED BY GOD'S NAME APPLAUDED. HIS FOLLOWERS WILL COME DEFEND HIM SOON AS THEY DEFENDED HIM WHEN HE SLAPPED WITCH DEMON. THE REST WILL SURELY SPEAK OUT. DON'T BE IN A HURRY, JUST STAY ALERT.

away4real:
@ goshen you have a doctrine you believe and i wont say you are wrong but I disagree with you. You are as much indoctrinated like any other christain.

The issue I take is your attempt to call any minister been paid by ministries lazy, that is way out of line.

We can judge righteously and am not against speaking against some of the excesses we see in some of our ministries, but calling people you dont know lazy is not judging righteously and really plainly wrong.

Believe what you choose to, but there is a sound scriptural basis to financial support of ministers. No matter how hard you try its in the bible.

Again, if you cant state categorically that all should be CELIBATE, stop this pick and choose example.

I am subject to correction on the use of words. Thank you.

Snowwy:
@goshen,
You have previous unanswered questions before my last post.

If you were not so worked up, you will have seen that I had no interpretation. I simply posted the scripture there.
Plainly, you just showed that you were fighting the word of God since I made no comment on that.

You initially came up with 'sitting on one scripture' to justify your trying to do away with I Cor 9, despite the fact that the scripture speaks for itself and other scriptures were being quoted.
Now you say 'taking wages of them' simply means support. The very thing you were fighting.

I will advise you step back and take a look at your posts and see how they look even to you.
I respect you want to leave me to my answer as I can see you have nothing more to add.

Shows you are not in line. Taking wages of them and taking wages from them? Can you explain this? I am not fighting the word of God and i am not fighting support for pastors and preachers.

hold on bro, i will get into the matter. I have to go out now. I will look into it and we will discuss it. You see, we cannot just sit on one verse and just make explanation out of it just like one of the point made by the poster.

@ Joagbaje,

I will not attempt to answer your stuffs. You are always found of hiding under the verse of judge not when the truth reveals your intentions. Jesus and the Apostles you talked about that didn't go back to their vocation, did they receive salary? It is very clear from scriptures that even with them doing only the gospel, they didn't get salary from people. Please stop hiding under some set of scriptures that suits you to justify your love for money. Godliness with contentment is a great gain.

Snowwy:
2 Corinthians 11:7-8

7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel freely?

8 I robbed other churches, taking WAGES of them, to do you service.


I am sorry goshen, like I said your initial scripture bore you witness. Pls stop trying to ' muzzle the ox that threadeth the corn.'

Why do you try to interpret scripture like you chose to? So you mean Paul "robbed" Peter to Pay Paul? Did he owe the Corinthians anything? You can't seems to understand the context. Paul simply humbled himself and made sacrifice for the corinthian church. How many men of God today will do that? Am not surprised at you, since you justify tithe, why wont you justify pastor receiving salary.

Again, read english very well. In the verse you quoted, "taking WAGES of them" simply means support. Do you take wages of someone or FROM someone? I leave you to answer that question.

jedisco:
@op [b]Seeing you cannot deny the fact that support may be in the form of salary,[/b] I think I should tell you that good and bad in Christianity is not always a direct opposite or white and black. There are alot of things that are neither wrong nor bad.

Also you should endeavour to read bible passages in appreciation of the context in which it was written.
Just like when Jesus told his disciples to give freely. He was simply referring to acts like demanding a reward from people before or after preaching or praying for them. This has nothing with churches supporting their ministers

Lastly, I would prefer if you refer to it as stipend and not salary. Because if you know how much many priests are said especially those in orthodox churches you would understand that it in no way equates to their effort and is rather just to meet basic needs

Bolded in black. I do not say support and salary mean the same thing. What really is support? When you support someone, it means such person also have little means of livelihood right? Many preachers get gifts when invited to preach, they write books, they have businesses etc and in this case, they are supported should in case their income is not enough from the above mention source. Support is not same as giving salary.

Bolded in Red. How do you know what Jesus was referring to? Jesus simply said, Freely you have received, freely give. The same Jesus you quoted also received support in his ministry and yet did God's work full time more than these lazy pastors of today.

Bolded in green. Exactly what am saying. Because they have created a structure out of them church and such structure will allow them to collect salary. This is a wrong structure. Let them go get a job, or do business with support from the church if need be. The bible is clear on this subject sir.

If not any of them, haven't you heard of Latter Rain Assembly with Pastor Tunde Bakare? @ FXking2012.

Pastor AIO:
For example I could show you examples in the bible where the scripture is subjected to analysis in the rabbinical style.

Go ahead bro

The problem of indoctrination in the church today to justify all the bible verses of Apostle Paul to mean salary is that, the Apostles of early church had their vocation and still preached the gospel rigorously. Apostle Paul combined his tent making trade with Apostolic assignment. Peter and others didn't return to their fishing business as main source of their income, however there is not record that they received regular salaries from the church. Today, we have lazy men that don't want to work rather than depend on church salary, hence they carve out baseless teachings to support their salary earnings.

Every Pastor should get a job or run a business. Yes, the church can rise up to support them in times of need but we do not have a foundation from early Apostles for preachers to receive salary. Pastors have created a salary system simply because they made clergy a job and professionalize it giving it terms such as "full time". Jesus preached full time but never received salary but support. Every child of God of God is a full time minster, God didn't call us into part time service or fellowship.

Again, we have a foundation by the early apostles and we cannot build something else on such foundation. Support preachers and pastors? scripturally YES. Pay preachers and pastors salary? Biblically, NO. We do not have such example from Christ or from the Apostles.

^^^
Make we wait for teacher to come mark your scores, lol

^^^
Wrong as in, we both agree from the scriptures that support is valid, Right.

You believe pastors should get salary and I don't believe it. Am using same scriptures you guys quote to explain to you that support doesn't means same thing as paying salary to a preacher. Apostle Paul also told you to follow his example, do you see that? Where am i wrong?

@ debosky and Joagbaje,

Read from my comments, you will see lots of scriptures quoted. To support using other references of bible verse means to share what God had blessed you with a man of God not salary my brother. People supported Jesus and the Apostles but didn't give them salaries. You are saying Paul chose not to use his right then where is 1 Cor. 11:1 (NIV)

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Stop quoting Apostle Paul in words and not following same examples, OK

Allow scripture to interpret itself.

chinedumo:
By so doing No Scripture is made a Private interpretation

~~~~ 10 BASICS for Scripture Interpretation~~~~~

1.] Always read a Scripture in its full context. At least a whole chapter. But the whole book is better.

2.] Consult other Scriptures that refer to the same subject and let those scriptures "help" the understanding of the Scripture you are studying.

3.] Let All Scripture "influence" each Scripture and Each Scripture "influence" all Scripture. No Scripture can stand on its own.

4.] Always ask, "To Whom is this written?" For example, when Paul said, "Wives, submit to your husbands" that is written to the wives. Husbands can't read it!

5.] Remember that there is an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. Are you reading Scripture that is OC? Are you reading Scripture that is NC? Or are you reading a promise or principle that is the will or the counsel of God in general.

6.] Cutting and Pasting is "illegal." You can't "tape" Scriptures together to "prove your point."

7.] Read several reliable translations of a Scripture.

8.] Look up the meanings of words in the Hebrew and Greek. Strong's Concordance is good .

9.] Don't approach Scripture to find support for your theory. Approach Scripture with a desire to learn.

10.] Don't make stuff up!!

In fact, Na all goes. Good job brother.

@ Joagbaje,

I cannot dig deep with you because you are holding on to a certain believe. There are things I cannot say here on this forum because it will mean a different topic altogether. The same Paul you quote simple said,

But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me. I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast. 1 cor 9:15 (NIV)

You see, we are not like the many hucksters who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ's authority, knowing that God is watching us. 2 cor. 2:17 NLT

We can go on and on this topic but simply we rather divide the word of truth rather than sit on bible verse that suits us.

Pastor AIO:
Perhaps it would help if you could outline what these major issues of christianity are that they sit on opposing sides of the fence of. Why do we need external authorities for understanding christianity?  A), and B), why are they both considered authorities?  because they are prolific?

Well, for me, I am a teacher of God's truth. The truth is Christian teachings and sound doctrines are water down today. I am not hear to boast but I want to tell everyone here that, when God gave me a mandate to His truth, God said to be, I should not look at the face of men but rather speak the truth in season. Here is what God said to me from His word, Mark 12:14 (NIV),

They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?

Many people have swallowed lies, heresies, and doctrines being preached by demons on the pulpit. Take a loot at this:

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 tim. 4:3 (NIV)

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Peter 2:1 (NIV)

Notice in 2 Peter 2:1. There was false prophets among the people of old BUT in our days, there will be FALSE TEACHERS.

I personally do not disregard or discredit my friend and brother, Joagbage because "Paul plants and Appolos" waters, to all the glory of God. We promote God's kingdom. However, As a teacher of God's word, WE CANNOT EXPLAIN SCRIPTURES WITH OUR HEAD KNOWLEDGE, EXPERIENCE, IDEAS OR USING VAIN WORDS BUT RATHER INTERPRET SCRIPTURES WITH SCRIPTURES. This is where Christianity has missed it and we have all sorts of different doctrines and yet we read same bible. The problem lies in our interpretation. God cannot mis-lead us if we allow scriptures to interpret itself and this is the method have was taught in my bible school and this is what am doing.

God bless you all.

freshcvv:
@OmoPastor
Why do you always sound like you're being threatened? the way you type too shows someone who has anger issues,  I pray God helps you on time.

Leave him alone o. We will investigate him soon. I have been watching him from a distance on this forum lately.

scopusng:
Luke 8:3

Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's business manager; Susanna; and many others who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.

In red, the word of God is very clear, contributing to SUPPORT NOT TO PAY SALARY to JESUS and HIS DISCIPLES. This is where the bible. Am I reading another thing here.

Joagbaje:
I agree with you that the just live by faith. I know pastors who have salaries and use it as seed . Trusting God that their live is more than the salary.

But the fact that the just live by faith doesn't negate the idea of salary. Jesus recieved financial support as well as apostles . You are trying to give impression as though it is wrong to recieve money . If that's your idea ,you are wrong.

The bolded. God bless you my brother.

Bolded in Red. This is where the church is missing it my brother. Idea doesn't interpret God's message. Remember when Moses was first told to strike the rock which he did. The second time, he was told to speak to the rock but he stroked it. If we are to interpret that, in the later, he used his experience or idea from the first event and that made him wrong to the obedience of God's word. Salary is NOT God's idea my brother and you know it.

Bolded in green. You are very correct but they didn't receive salary. Apostle Paul just told us where I quoted that his reward is free of charge for preaching the gospel. Should they give ministers financial gifts and support? YES which in God's way of supplying all our needs can be more than stipulated monthly salary.

Bolded in Blue. You have the wrong impression and conclusion of the whole matter. If I read the bible and support biblical truth of supporting preachers, I won't have concluded that receiving money is wrong. Balancing the word of God is important my brother.

^^^ am not here to exchange words with you please. It pretty simple. You cannot show us how double honor of a pastor translates into giving salary. I have shown you from same bible where you quote Paul to support your salary for preachers that is reward of being hire is to do it free of charge. You simply do no see this aspect. I give to men of God when am led by the Holy Spirit and obedience to that is where the blessing lies. I guess this kind of teachings doesn't suit you, probably you are such kind of pastors that might loose customers. hmmmm

walegees:
it is no crime if a servant of God is providéd for by the church in whatever form.
This latter paragraph justifies the notion that men of God should not receive salary, yes (those called by hunger and those with perverted zeal).
But, those with real devine call are not motivated by material things. Church of christ is a family where sharing and support in love is of paramount importance not necessarily a kind of fixed, negotiable values. "By their attitude to material things, ye shall know them".  God help us.  

The bible is specific in how they should be supported. It is simply supporting which can take form of anything but not salary. The same Apostle Paul preachers quotes also said, his reward is not get to paid for preaching the gospel. Getting paid for preaching the gospel means selling the gospel. Also, you are on spot for sharing and receiving which is also biblical.

diluminati:
Christians should proceed with caution when dealing with Paul's letters. i've said it a countless times.

There is nothing wrong with Paul's teaching. People have simply taken him out of context and wrongly divided his teachings. People only take what suits them from his teachings and sit on it forgetting same Apostle Paul will balance it else where in his teachings.

Joagbaje:
Most pastor these days have their own professional jobs or business but there are still some who May not be able or allowed of God to work by the virtue of their responsibility. They have to devote full attention to the ministry . Such will require support  from the church. And it's according to scripture . Jesus himself Recieved financial support, likewise Paul and other apostles .

1 Timothy 5:17-18
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Bolded. You are right on spot. Support is exactly what the bible says. Why not stick to what the bible says. Support can be in many forms and will not interpret salary. I hope you get my point here. Truly Jesus received support not salary.

2. Elder worthy of double honor. How does this translate into double salary? Honor means honor and you know what honor means.

3. And the laborer is worthy of his reward. what is the reward for a preacher preaching the gospel?  money or lost souls or treasures in heaven? if he is preaching for money, he is selling the gospel. This makes him a merchant, not a preacher.

The same Paul said this in case we need to rightly divide the word of truth. Listen to what Paul himself said about same REWARD.

1Cr 9:18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.

You remember Peter said, somethings Paul taught are difficult to understand. You need to balance Apostle paul, hence you just take the ones that suits you and fly with it. Rightly dividing the word.

Hence, support for ministers is biblical. Salary is unbiblical.

stagger:
OP,
You are indeed worse than a cretin.
So how do you expect a full-time pastor to pay all the bills that you pay as a Nigerian?

I have known you for many years. I will rather not mention names here. You can call me whatever pleases you. You have only succeeded abusing me and then asked a question. We are not here to abuse ourselves. You also did not contribute to the topic.

Now let me answer your question since you have nothing to contribute. how I expected a full time pastor to pay his bills is in the word of God, The just shall live by faith. God knows how to provide for whoever he calls into ministry and that can go beyond monthly salaries from church people. If you are not satisfy with my answers, let's open the word of God and I show you probably what you dont know.

stepo707:
I do hear this phrase everywhere [b]"my ministry". who the hell authorised you to open a ministry?God is not an author of confusion.The church belongs to Christ as he is the head(Eph 5:23-25) and no one to any individual.Infact when you here any pastor saying that phrase,that man/woman must be a false prophet/pastor.
Its because everyone sees church as an avenue to quick money that's why there is so many conflicting doctrines.
Back to the topic, A pastor/preacher is no supposed to get any monthly salary.No where in the scripture where the apostles or disciples that went about preaching received a dime for preaching the gospel.When the Lord calls you,he will definitely provide for your needs but dont expect compensation in form of monthly salary for doing God's work.[/b]

You are full of the word of God. God bless you. This is where the church of Jesus had swallowed wrong teachings. The church belongs to Jesus but today, the church has being patterned in such a family structure that when a founder passes away, the spouse or children or immediate family takes over and you see folks fighting over the lordship of God's people. Some immediately receive call to start ministry and so on.

You know why these structures is like that? i tell you the answer from the bible. 2 Corinthians 2:17, NLT

You see, we are not like the many hucksters who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ's authority, knowing that God is watching us.

What is Profit? Profit is the reward of an entrepreneur. This implies that, they have taken church as personal establishment and hence, they have to make profit. Things don't work like that in the kingdom of God. We are in the world but not permitted to do things like the world.

God bless you brother.

OmoPastor:
@ mr goshen360
i do not know what is going through your mind by bringing up this topic but i think you should take this my candid advise: start your own ministry and do not pay yourself or anyone that works with you and lets see how far you will go in winning the world for Jesus  

1. Bolded. What is going on in my mind? Heresies in the church.

2. I should start my own ministry and see how i will survive? Such a carnal suggestion in an attempt to learn the truth. You have swallowed the wrong teachings and your believe system does not want to accept some else. Why not show us where salary is supported in the bible rather than giving me carnal advice. When God gives you a mandate to do His work, He takes care of you.

jmoore:
you mean a pastor will work for the church and not get paid? How will he work efficiently if he cannot pay his rents, pay children school fees, provide food for his family or even travel to spread the gospel? sometimes I wonder if these kinds of topics are posted by christians.

You mean pastor should work for church and not get paid? Exactly why we should open the bible to see if they should be paid monthly or something else.

Highlighted in red. The just shall live by faith.

Highlighted in green. Yes, I am a christian, born again and bible student. Open your bible and show us where salary of preachers has biblical backings.

Snowwy:
@goshen,
Apostle Paul received support. II Cor. 11:8
We have been told to give double honour to the elders that serve well and other scriptures. I Tim 5:17-18
I do not understand what you mean by 'sit on one verse of scripture'.

The other apostles also received. Even the II Cor 9:4-6 says it all. Acts 4.
Besides, the other disciples also handled all the monies received from the sale of lands/property that the people brought to their feet for distribution to all who needed. It was like communal living.

@goshen,
I understand that there are a lot of stuff going on in churches but why do you not rather focus more or spreading the importance of giving that holding on to things like Pastor's salary.

Have you ever sold land that you have or other heavy investment and brought the funds to be shared to people in need in your church or taken it to a charity if you are not confident with the church handling it? Is that not what you seem to be hammering on.

Seriously I need to ask this question because if a pastor's wage is now a bone of contention, I wonder if all who claim to 'give freely' actually give to help the needy, charities at all.
(Edited)

Yes. Many things you said above are true to the biblical teachings. Apostles and Jesus received support NOT MONTHLY SALARY and it remains biblical truth. 2. Is a pastor's wage now bone of contention? YES. Nothing of such is backed in the bible. Are you aware that there are people in the body of Christ who are called mainly for giving. I will show it to you if you stay on course.

Chrisbenogor:
What is wrong with self-service?

ARE YOU BORN AGAIN? DO YOU READ YOUR BIBLE? ANSWER ME AND I WILL TELL YOU WHAT'S WRONG WITH MASTUBATION.

But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Peter 2:1(NLT)

For those who want proof if pastor chris said it is not a sin or not, here is the video below. And continue to justify or defend yourselves in sin. smh.

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBi8l621wbQ?version=3&hl=en[/flash]

Watch the video and hear it for yourself before you spill rubbish out of your mouth to justify your sins. If anyone has problems of self-denial or self-control, let such person deal with it and stop justifying your sins with the word of God.

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 1 tim. 4:1 (NLT)

For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 2 tim. 4:3 (NLT)

TODAY, THESE SCRIPTURES ARE FULFILLED IN YOUR HEARS