₦airaland Forum

Church people are still confused. Say it loud and clear, SINAI IS NULL AND VOID at the cross of Christ.

@ funny comments.

Enigma: I have not said or even suggested what you are claiming here!

Read my post again: my question is why should we follow the statement on "tithes" but not the one on eternal life?

It's called 'selective' obedience. He doesn't 'understand' what you saying, he just reading.

@ idnoble135,

lemme help you understand what Enigma is saying. If tithing as per Matthew 23:23 is "ETERNAL PRINCIPLE", why can't selling ALL AND THEN FOLLOW JESUS AS REQUIREMENT also be "eternal principle", because both statements was made by Christ.

idnoble135: ^
I still await you on the thread bro. Lets do away with the unfinished business.

I will be there, on my work to work soon.

Alwaystrue: Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of COMMANDMENTS EXPRESSED IN ORDINANCES, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,


MOSES SPEAKING HERE:
Deuteronomy 12:1,5-7
1 These are the STATUTES AND ORDINANCES that you must carefully observe in the land that the LORD God of your ancestors has given you to possess every day that you live on the earth.
5 But unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:

6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
7 And there ye shall eat before the Lord your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee.

13 Take heed to thyself that THOU OFFER NOT thy burnt offerings IN EVERY PLACE THAT THOU SEEST:
14 BUT IN THE PLACE WHICH THE LORD SHALL CHOOSE IN ONE OF THY TRIBES, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt DO ALL THAT I COMMAND THEE

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it



GOD SAYS IN THE FINAL BOOK OF THE OT:
MALACHI 3:8-9
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In TITHES AND OFFERINGS
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation



JESUS SAYS:
Matthew 23:23
"What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.



PAUL SAYS:
I Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Don't you realize that those who work at the temple get their food from the temple? Don't those who help at the altar get a share of what is on the altar?
14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who spread the Good News should earn their living from the Good News


As Abraham gave tithes and offerings to God in appreciation of God's blessing. Children of Abraham tithe and give God offerings to appreciate what God has given them and still God blesses with more. God is indeed faithful!
By the way, the 10 commandments (all summed up in love) was given by God WITH HIS OWN VOICE for the first time to the Israelites in Exodus 20...God's word never returns to Him void and is everlasting. Please do not be deceived!

I will expose you soon.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Good morning to y'all.

There's something about the Law we must understand, and this includes the law of tithing. You can't practice the Mosaic Law in isolation, it must be in wholesome practice. You can't pick what you like and leave the others. This further explain what Christ was saying in Matthew 23:23 - The religious leaders, scribes and pharisees, left our weightier matters but only hold on to tithe and same is happening in our days.

2. Some people might say, there are ceremonial laws, moral law and sacrificial law. I challenge anyone to produce ONE SINGLE verse from Genesis to Revelation where such distinction was made. The bible never made such distinction, it is those religious leaders who wants to confuse and take advantage of the ignorant that made such distinctions. Those who want to enforce the Moses Law on Christians don't understand what the law says - practice all or none, break one = break all. Why? The law was given as whole. When scripture talks about the law, it refers to it as a whole.

3. Tithing mentioned in Matthew 23:23 is a 'matter of the law' still be practiced then and Christians are not 'under the law of Moses' but under the law of Christ. You can't pick tithe out of the whole law and keep practicing that. That is even worse because scripture says, when you don't do the WHOLE law (picking one and doing others), such person is under and curse and fallen from Grace.

I have scriptural backings on what is said above, I'm just in a haste when typing this. I have to go now.

Happy Sunday to y'all.

[quote author=*Kails*]LOL!

goshen you are NOT playing around [/quote]No playing mehn, I, alone will chase a thousand. If one more person join me, both of us shall chase 10 thousand. We must chase all these tithe merchants out of business.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23

As we follow through on the precept of what was said to the multitudes and disciples as against with the use of "BUT" and mentioning of scribes and pharisees. To the multitudes and disciples, Christ said, DO NOT DO AFTER THE WORKS of the scribes and pharisees and Christ mentioned THESE WORKS in every WOE and HYPOCRITES pronounced on the scribes and pharisees. This precept continues to verse 23 and further.

In this controversial verse 23, the WORKS of the scribes and pharisees is that THEY PAY TITHE OF MINT, ANISE AND CUMMIN and OMITTED the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith.

1. This verse does not say it was the MULTITUDES and disciples THAT PAY TITHE OF MINT, ANISE AND CUMMIN, it was the scribes and pharisees.

2. It was also the scribes and pharisees that omitted the weightier matter of the law, not the disciples and multitudes.

3. If we follow the precept of what Christ said to the disciples and multitudes NOT TO DO AFTER THE WORKS of scribes and pharisees, it will ONLY mean Christ was telling the disciples and multitudes INDIRECTLY NOT TO PAY TITHE OF MINT, ANISE AND CUMMIN and omit the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith. What do we see today, religious leaders like the scribes and pharisee lay emphasis on tithe every where and even curse with curse on Christians and threaten devourer to devour those that Christ died for, insulting the blood of Christ as if it is the blood of goats, bulls and cows and omit importance things.

4. If you interchange what was said to one group as against the other. The context is destroyed!!! This is what I mean. If we take what woes and hypocrites pronounced on the scribes and pharisees to the multitudes\disciples; we will have destructive text. For instance, take what was said to the disciples\multitudes and apply to scribes and pharisees and vice versa and see how it reads thus:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, MULTITUDES AND CHRIST DISCIPLES hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23.

TAKE WHAT WAS SAID TO THE DISCIPLES AND MULTITUDES AND APPLY IT TO SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, it will read thus:

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples SCRIBES AND PHARISEES saying, The scribes and the Pharisees DISCIPLES AND MULTITUDES sit in Moses' seat. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

How does that read to us? The whole context is destroyed. We must follow the contextual targeted group in audience.

5. Tithe as mentioned here is still and remained a 'matter of the law' - it is crops and animals according to the law. Christians do not follow most laws of Moses, while do religious leaders ONLY hold unto the tithe. Christians are not under the Mosaic law but under Christ's law of the Spirit. If we must pick tithe alone out of the Moses law, then we must pick other laws too, stoning people to death, stoning rebellious kids to death, women in period time will not come to worship gathering, men must not shave, we must not eat pork, we must worship on Saturday as sabbath etc. The Law was our guardian UNTIL Christ should come, AFTER Christ had come to do the finished works, scripture says WE NO LONGER NEED THE LAW, tithe inclusive plus other regulations.

6. Tithe teachers will further say tithe predated the law. Are Abraham's tithe items same thing as crops and animals of the law tithe items? Why then do you threaten Christians with curse and devourer for not tithing if you following Abraham's tithing example? Did Melchizedek threaten Abraham with curse and devourer before Abraham gave the tithe of spoils from war? The Law tithe was what was produced in Israel, Did Abraham produced the spoils of war? Did Abraham tithe from his personal income? Religious leaders like the scribes and pharisees say tithe SO THAT GOD CAN OPEN THE WINDOWS OF HEAVEN AND POUR YOU BLESSINGS, or curse with a curse. Did Abraham tithe TO OPEN HEAVEN? He was already rich before the act of tithe. Religious leaders of our days make tithe a condition for God's blessings according to Malachi, Abraham's tithe was not a condition for his blessings and no threat of curse and devourer. Abraham's tithe was an example of free giving because scripture says he GAVE. When did Abraham's tithe BECAME A LAW for Christians to follow? If you say we are Abraham's children by faith, then it means we are not to pay tithe because Abraham's children PAID tithe in Abraham ALREADY when he met Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:9-10.

I will continue and follow after your (Image123) exposition.

13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Again, we return to the BUT in the scripture. Christ had been instructing the multitudes and his disciples from verse 1 - 12. Now, Christ faces or confronts the scribes and pharisees and the scripture flipped the other side of Christ's audience by saying BUT unto you, SCRIBES & PHARISEES. In the midst of the crowd\audience, Christ now address another group - scribes and pharisees BUT unto the disciples, from verse 1-12. It is destructive to the context to take what was said to the DISCIPLES and MULTITUDES and apply it to the SCRIBES and PHARISEES. In the same context, we cannot take what say said (WOE and HYPOCRITES) to the scribes and pharisees and apply to the MULTITUDES and DISCIPLES because they fall into different groups in the audience.

Both WOE and HYPOCRITES are degenerating words - Believers are not degenerated in Christ but regenerated and elevated. Hypocrites portrays the satanic and devilish nature because it means one who answers, an interpreter, an actor, stage player, a dissembler and pretender while woe is a cursing word that denotes grief and sorrows throughout one's existence.

So, we follow through in what Christ said to the multitudes and disciples and said BUT DO NOT DO AFTER THEIR WORKS. In verse 3 where Christ began to mention 'some' of the WORKS of these scribes and pharisees BUT told his disciples\multitudes NOT TO DO AFTER SUCH WORKS. In verse 13 here, the scribes\pharisees DO WORKS that is, they shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. BUT you, multitudes and disciples, DO NOT DO AFTER SUCH WORKS, that is, DO NOT shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

We follow this precept till verse 22. I will fast forward to verse 23.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Matthew 23:8-12

Jesus uses this opportunity to teach or instruct on equality, humility, servanthood\servitude and mis-placed authority, still TO THE DISCIPLES AND MULTITUDES.

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Matthew 23:4-7

Jesus began to mention the 'some' of WORKS of the these scribes\pharisees. In verse 4, it was, the scribes and pharisees bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers BUT you, MULTITUDES and DISCIPLES DO NOT DO AFTER THEIR WORKS, (verse 3) that is, DO NOT bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; while you yourself will not move them with one of their fingers.

In verse 5, Jesus repeated the word "WORKS" to follow his instruction in verse 3 - DO NOT DO AFTER THE WORKS of the scribes and Pharisees. We follow through on these instructions up till verse 7. That was a corrective instructions of the works of the scribes and pharisees to the multitudes and his disciples.

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Matthew 23:3

We still follow the 'context'. Up to this verse 3, Jesus was still TALKING to the MULTITUDES and HIS DISCIPLES. In verse 2, Christ brought in the mention of scribes and Pharisees to 'give instructions' to THE MULTITUDES and HIS DISCIPLES about the scribes and pharisees. Hence, he brought in the mention of scribes and pharisees in verse 2.

Verse 3 established what Christ was saying to MULTITUDES and DISCIPLES about scribes\pharisees for mentioning them in verse 2. Christ in verse 3 was saying to the MULTITUDES and DISCIPLES that "EVERYTHING" the scribes and pharisees tells you (multitudes and Christ's disciple) to observe and do.

In scriptural interpretation, there's always the other side of a teaching or an instruction(s). This other side is usually emphasized by the word "BUT". When we read "BUT" in scriptures, it means, flip to the other side. Christ specifically told the multitudes and his disciples "BUT do NOT do after their WORKS. . ."

What are the WORKS of the scribes and pharisees that Christ will tell multitudes and his disciple to observe other things the scribes\pharisee says by the position of their authority BUT they (multitudes and disciples) should NOT DO AFTER THEIR WORKS. The word 'works' is the Greek word ergon and it means: business, employment, that which any one is occupied; that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking. Any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind. An act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work. It denotes the rituals in the Mosaic law in the outward forms in order to gain popularity and take advantage - refer to who the scribes and pharisees are above.. Please, take note of this other side of Christ's instruction to the multitudes & disciples - 1, All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; 2, but do not ye after their works.

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: Matthew 23:2

The verse 2 follow up to verse 1 on what Christ SAID TO THE MULTITUDE AND TO HIS DISCIPLES. Christ is about to start a 'teaching', so to say or an 'instruction'. To who? The multitudes and to his disciples. Disciples are simple followers of Christ. Therefore, at this very time Christ spoke to his disciples, the 12 primarily but by extension, we can say, it extended to Christians because we, Christians are followers of Christ.

Now, Christ brought in the scribes and the Pharisees. Who are the scribes and who are the Pharisees?

The scribes are those learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more difficult and subtle questions of the law; they added to the Mosaic law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with the priests and elders of the people. They are religious teacher of the Mosaic law: so instructed that, from his learning and ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven

The Pharisees are sect that seems to have started after the Jewish exile. In addition to OT books the Pharisees recognized in oral tradition a standard of belief and life. They sought for distinction and praise by outward observance of external rites and by outward forms of piety, and such as ceremonial washings, fasting, prayers, and alms giving; and, comparatively negligent of genuine piety, they prided themselves on their fancied good works. They held strenuously to a belief in the existence of good and evil angels, and to the expectation of a Messiah; and they cherished the hope that the dead, after a preliminary experience either of reward or of penalty in Hades, would be recalled to life by him, and be requited each according to his individual deeds. In opposition to the usurped dominion of the Herods and the rule of the Romans, they stoutly upheld the theocracy and their country's cause, and possessed great influence with the common people. According to Josephus they numbered more than 6000. They were bitter enemies of Jesus and his cause; and were in turn severely rebuked by him for their avarice, ambition, hollow reliance on outward works, and affection of piety in order to gain popularity.

We will do the simple and short exposition along side one another. I will NOT be long in this one.

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples - Matthew 23:1

The Bible is not speaking in tongues here. The 'teachings' of Jesus always have 'specific' audience. Here, Jesus 'specifically' speaking to MULTITUDES and DISCIPLES. We can't beat around with this verse. It says what it means and it means what it says. There are many scriptures where it will specifically say, Jesus opened his mouth and TAUGHT his disciples saying. At other times, it will say, Jesus spoke the PARABLE unto HIS DISCIPLES. So, we understand Christ was TEACHING his disciples at THAT POINT IN TIME.

@ Idnoble135,

When Jesus taught mercy, justice and love of God, he taught that to the disciples separately not in the act of rebuking and pronoucing woe to the scribes and pharisees. I have given you clue to interprete that verse, just change the names of disciples for the scribes & pharisees and read it again or better still, read it as though Christ was talking to the church. The audience are: Disciples, multitudes, scribes and pharisees. It will be wrongly dividing the word to say what was said to the disciples APPLIED to scribes\pharisees and verse versa.

Okay, put it the other way round. Does what was said to the disciple APPLY to the scribes and pharisees?

MEILYN: mr goshen keep living your lawless life.... lawlessness is tantamount to freedom and wrecklessness, u cant keep living as you like, doing anything you want and claim to serve God. If there are no Laws in Lagos then we will see what it becomes in 2weeks. If there are no laws then there is no purnishment/hell... I rest my case, keep preaching your grace, keep deceiving people thats ur problem.

Who is talking about government law here? Is traffic law in the law of Moses? What is wrong with you that you can't comprehend simple message? Are Christians given the laws that was given to Moses for Israel? If you think so, then give us scriptures. Thank you.

Alwaystrue: Titus 2:11-14
11 For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every LAWLESS deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

I have told you to always STUDY the word in 'context'. First, I don't know what translation you quote but before I quote KJV, that verse 14 is talking about our past position, not our present state. . . who GAVE himself that he might redeem us. Are you redeemed or you are yet to be redeemed? That word you capitalized LAWLESS deed is 'iniquity' in the KJV. A Christian is not given the law of Moses but we have the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ, follow the title of the thread.

Uyi Iredia: So bad. People actually think taxes don't develop and think that prayers will solve Naija's problem if they continue thinking this way. SMH.

I weep for the motherland. Really SMH!!!

Faith is the victory that overcomes the world. There's no such practice in the new testament.

MEILYN: what a joke. Witout laws there is no sin

You just helping to establish the teaching here - scripture says, the only way not to sin is NOT to have the law because sin is the transgression of the law but when there's no law, there's no sin because, there won't be anything to break...

MostHigh: The sermon on the mount is pure law.

You cannot have a greater revelation than Yashua, you can never be greater than Yashua.

It is you that is teaching others to sin proclaiming the law is dead, and yet we still see sin within this world daily.

Exactly what I'm saying that is, having the law more and more doesn't stop people from sinning. Christ the more is the CURE for sin.

Keep teaching people law, you keep strengthening them to sin more and whoever goes on and on in the law, have the strength to sin more because law is the strength and power of sin.

You have to tear one down (the law) in order to build the other (grace and truth).

@ OP, my testimony will come soon and later.

idnoble135: As His immediate audience, yes!

Okay, if you believe Jesus talking to scribes and pharisees = talking or teaching his disciples. Let's re-structure Jesus word to portray Christ was talking to the disciples. It will go thus:

Woe unto you, Peter, James, John, Hypocrites, for you pay tithe of mints, ... these you ought to do without leaving others undone.

If disciples names are substituted, that's what it will read. How does that sound in your ears? Therefore, it will mean the disciples PAID tithe and if the disciples had paid tithe, they would have taught it to the early church because they extended the teachings of Christ and there would have been recorded of the disciples paying tithe and teaching it to the church especially in the council meeting in Jerusalem.

2. It will also mean the disciples would have 'continued' in this teaching because Christ said continue in my words if you my disciples in deed. Then, we need at least,.one scripture to validate they did tithed in DOING what christ taught them.

idnoble135: Finish those first. I bet it might take a long time for you to get finished with them.
Slow and steady....

Okay, let's take it slowly with tenderness to correct. Let's address the first issue, you quoted Matthew 23:23. Do you believe Jesus talking to scribes and pharisee = talking to his disciples?

Let's take it from there.

Just post everything. I'm typing from my phone. I will respond fully after work. Post them so I can address them all together. We learn from each other. Thanks.

Okay, @ idnoble135, I have seen the one you re posted, making two. I await others, if any. Thanks.

idnoble135: Okkk... Lemme see...

Okay. Thanks.

idnoble135: start from the first page of the thread.

I'm at work now and can't read all from page 1. Just re quote yourself and I will follow from there. I'm too distracted at work and can't read from page one now. Please do me that favor, so it will be on same place. Thanks

idnoble135: I earlier said i will open the revelation to some believers for judgement.
The least i expected from you was that post. We've once talked on special anointing and falling under the anointing. I shared all i knew on that subject. But this, i think its better to send via email.

Am I not part of the "some" believers? Don't I have the grace of Christ? Why distinct me now because of tithe? I want to partake of this 'special revelation' grace please. Please share the rest so we can learn together. Revelation don't contradict the written word.