₦airaland Forum

This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.

Galatians 3:17, Amplified Bible (AMP)

The verse makes it clear that a covenant was in force BEFORE the Law covenant or Sinai or Mosaic covenant came into effect. That covenant is the Abrahamic covenant - a covenant based on foreshadow of Grace + faith.

Now, the scripture make it clear also that Abraham wasn't obeying any law officially to receive the promise and Grace of God because there wasn't any officially given or written law to obey, in the next verse of same Galatians 3.

18 For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise

19 What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man]

Here, Paul the Apostle was comparing and contrasting between the covenant of the Law and the Abrahamic covenant. What Paul was teaching in Galatians here is, God never intended the people of Israel to live or be given the law by the virtue of his promises to Abraham. But like I said, it was the children of Israel themselves that changed from or demanded the law - covenants of doing works and performance. How?

to be continue . . .

idnoble135: Mosaic law- as in trying to follow the written codes of Moses to get right with God?

Yes, and for the REST of ALL its commandments, ordinances, rules and regulations.

idnoble135: Did Jesus manifest grace on earth or not? Read a bit of my comment on candour's reply.

Lolz. Maybe I'm getting you wrong or something you not saying clearly. Grace is the term of agreement under the New Covenant. Unlike the Law, which was the term of agreement under the Mosaic or Old Covenant. Jesus manifested Grace while on earth but it wasn't ratified in the New Covenant yet. That's why it was Grace IN THE MIDST of the Law.

idnoble135: Hmhmmm.... I do not follow the Mosaic law. Relax, thats what the discussion was swerved into. I'm a believer of grace.

Then you should know that Grace is not a continuation to obey the Mosaic law. NO?

idnoble135: then all the teachings Jesus ever gave before the cross were for the Jews since He already declared that He was sent to the lost house of israel right?
See confusion!

No!!! Under the Law, Jesus was born into and under the dispensation of the law still in force. His teachings are His will that will take effect INTO THE NEW COVENANT that will take effect AFTER His death. Matthew to John is NOT the New Covenant.

^ A teaching is coming soon from me, it will be titled: "Grace in the midst of the Law". Grace and truth came by Jesus, Law was given my Moses. Many Christians think Christ came to give us MORE LAWS. NO! It was already given by Moses, Christ came and was born when the dispensation of the law was still in force\effect\active. Grace is NOT a teaching, it a person - Jesus Christ. The more you know Christ, the more the Mosaic law fade away in your life.

Gombs: Quit beating around d bush...my question below is as above



If you can't answer, I'd understand


Aside Isaac show where God instructed Abraham to give offerings but I can show you a carton of scriptures where God instructed Moses. Now if Moses' law is no longer in effect and since you say tithing is of the law, then why still give offerings?

Question: "If tithes have been done away with, what about offering?"

Answer: Tithe is different from offerings in scriptures. They might be mentioned alongside but different. Offerings are also done away with.

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Hebrews 10:6

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law. Hebrews 10:8

...then why still give offerings?

What is this? What we give in worship gathering is 'contribution' NOT offerings. We don't give 'offerings' in worship gathering UNDER THE NT, such was by the law.

Romans 15:26 and 1 Corinthians 16:1 is the staring at you in the face:

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

If the NT Christians gave what was called 'offerings' when they gathered together, please kindly show us from the scriptures.

Gombs: of·fer·ing noun \ˈȯ-f(ə-)riŋ, ˈä-\
: something that is given to God or a god as a part
of religious worship
: an act of giving a religious offering
: something that is available for sale or use

Full Definition of OFFERING
a : the act of one who offers
b : something offered; especially : a sacrifice
ceremonially offered as a part of worship
c : a contribution to the support of a church
: something offered for sale or patronage <latest
offerings of the leading novelists>
: a course of instruction or study

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/offering

How do you define bible words? With secular dictionary or with bible dictionary or concordance. What does offerings mean in Hebrews and Greek? Do you know offerings have like 4-5 meanings depending on context? Don't lemme expose you in the Hebrews and Greek meaning o.

Okay, I promised to give time to this thread because there's sooooooooooooooooooooo much confusion in the church of Christ today and people end up not knowing anything rather than coming to Sunday-Sunday gathering and coming out more confused. Many of you know me, when I'm ready to teach, you have to be ready to read. Let's get into the word now.

To understand Covenant, we must start from Genesis and run it through Revelation. Also, how does covenant exist in scripture. If a Christian doesn't understand what I'm about to teach here, such person continues to be confuse. This is not to be taken that I know it all but, by God's grace, I study with all diligence and by the power of the Holy Spirit. If I now boast, my boast is in the LORD and the Spirit of truth teaching me.

I start with Dispensations and with dispensations, covenant exist - from Genesis to Revelation.

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God. Col 1:25

God is the originator of dispensation. Dispensation is simply a period (in time) on how God deals with mankind in His work and purposes toward mankind into different periods of time. In every dispensation God established a covenant with people on how He deals with mankind in a active dispensation.

1. Dispensation of Innocence began with Genesis 1:28-30 and ended 2:15-17). This dispensation covered the period of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. During this time and period, it was God doing and blessing Adam and Eve. During this dispensation, God's covenant was with Adam (the Adamic Covenant) symbolized by the Ground of the Earth

2. Dispensation of Conscience. It started from the time of Adam and Eve’s eviction from the garden until the flood (Genesis 3:8–8:22). This dispensation demonstrates what mankind will do if left to his own will and conscience, which have been tainted by the inherited sin nature. The five major aspects of this dispensation are 1) a curse on the serpent, 2) a change in womanhood and childbearing, 3) a curse on nature, 4) the imposing of work on mankind to produce food, and 5) the promise of Christ as the seed who will bruise the serpent's head (Satan).

3. Dispensation of Human Government, which began in Genesis 8. The Noah (the Noahic Covenant) was established and symbolized by the Rainbow. In this time and period, God was dealing with Noah.

4. Dispensation of Promise, started with the call of Abraham, continued through the lives of the patriarchs, and ended with the Exodus of the Jewish people from Egypt, a period of about 430 years. During this dispensation God developed a great nation that He had chosen as His people (Genesis 12:1–Exodus 19:25). During this time and period, God established his covenant with Abraham. In this covenant, God is the only one obligated to do and fulfill the promises. That's why we read God saying, I Will...., I will, I will, to Abraham. What is required of Abraham is FAITH and\or BELIEVE in the "I will..." of God.

5. Dispensation of Law. It lasted almost 1,500 years, from the Exodus 20 until it after Jesus Christ’s death\burial\resurrection. Moses (the Mosaic Covenant) symbolized by the Two Tablets of the Law. Under this covenant, it was between God and Israel ONLY or the people of Israel and ratified by THE LAW, including the TEN COMMANDMENTS. I read Joagbaje saying there's difference between the covenant and the LAW. That's not true. THE LAW is the OLD Covenant under the Mosaic dispensation of the Law. The LAW was used to ratify the Mosaic covenant. The Law is the 'terms' of the agreement or the covenant.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the TEN COMMANDMENTS. - Exodus 34:27-28

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. - Deuteronomy 4:13

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water: And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant. - Deuteronomy 9:9-11

How did these people of Israel got to the point of having the LAW as terms of their covenant BUT Abraham and the others NEVER had the LAW as their terms of covenant or agreement? Follow me closely, I will deal with this question which I already did on another thread but because of re-typing, I will just copy and paste and then continue to the other dispensations and finish up my teachings.

to be continue . . .

^

Joagbaje: Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

The verse above makes it clear that Jesus has abolished the law of commandments, contained in ordinances, given to the Jews in the Old Testament. He fulfilled them and abolished them. The laws and commandments of the Old Testament are not relevant to the new creation in Christ Jesus. It’s therefore wrong for you to live your life trying to obey the Law.

Hebrews 7:12
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The Lord Jesus became our High Priest in the New Testament, not in the order of the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood, but in the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:17&21). This signifies an eternal priesthood; a new priesthood, headed by Jesus Christ, different from what obtained in the Old Testament.
Now, the importance of that is this: Jesus Christ has become our High Priest, and He’s not the High Priest of the Old Testament Law; He has a new law. Remember what we read in Hebrews 7:12, that a change in priesthood automatically means a change of the Law. Since the priesthood has been changed and Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the New Testament, the law has also been changed. That’s why Jesus said in

John 13:34,
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

Love has replaced all the laws and ordinances of the Old Testament (Read Romans 13:8-10)

. In Matthew 22:37-40
"…Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.".

‎​This however doesn’t mean that the Old Testament is not useful to us today.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The things written in the Old Testament have been written only for our learning; they’re not the revelations by which we live today as new creations in Christ. Now learn more of what it is to walk in love.

https://www.nairaland.com/1097427/law-been-abolished

I will help you tear down the Law (of Moses) soon. Wait some few minutes.

There's nothing like 'church' wedding in the New Testament. Whatever wedding any believer wants is approved of God.

Candour: Which offerings are we talking about here? burnt offerings, peace offerings, sin offerings, heave offerings. which one exactly?

my bro, what we give today and call offerings are nothing like the offerings of Abraham o.

what we do today is best called collections the name Paul described them by in 1Cor 16:1

Thank you beloved. The church today is under invasion and by God's grace, I, we should be part of the clean-up process.

Gombs: Question anti tithers can't seem to answer

"If tithes have been done away with, what about offering?"


...Someone here said Abraham ra.ped (molested) Hagar (his maid) and had ishmael...*looking stunned

I see some folks don't know anything of the bible after all

*watching from the side lines

Offerings is NOT and will NEVER be money also in scriptures. The church today is polluted, I can assure you that. The money we give in church gathering is NOT and NEVER called Offerings. If you have found ONE scriptures that called money we give in worship gathering offerings, please show it to me\us.

2. The offerings collected in worship gatherings, what is the biblical purpose? Let's go on from here.

OLAADEGBU: Faithful Christian stewardship demands that we should be willing to use 100% of our financial resources as the Lord see fit. God is less concerned with how much we give as a measure of our love for Him and His work than with what we keep and spend on ourselves.

Why then do you demand a fixed and certain amount (10%) from people?

@ joagbaje,

When you say "eternal principles", what does that mean?

Expect me in full flavor in about 4-5 hours. I will put my time into this thread for the sake of the brethren.

Bidam: You better keep quiet if you don't understand what that scripture is saying.Mr. pick and choose.

Bidam: Not rightly said, he never understood that proverb just you like you too.You don't pick a particular part and overblow it.Anyway let's not derail the OP.

Bidam,

I also invite you to the above Alex's thread. You will understand why the Old covenant based on the LAW was discontinued and brought to an end. It's a systematic teaching I'm doing in that thread.

Pastor Olu T: Rightly said bro, but I still dont get why we have issues with the law n grace when we have the word of God (Bible) which rightly differentiated the old from the new covenant.
The question I have for some folks is what is the different between the old n new covenant?
I think I will open a thread on that so we all learn.

@ Pastor Olu T,

My brother, I'm OUT TO TEAR DOWN THE LAW, of Moses because I have a deeper revelation and truth on it. If Christians understand the LAW is man trying to do something for God instead of Graciously receiving what God is doing for man. The Law is the covenant initiated by MAN, the people of Israel, NOT God. I humbly invite you to Alexleo's thread where I'm currently doing a teaching on what you requested or thinking to open a thread for. Some people might not read the teaching there because it's inside Alex's thread here: https://www.nairaland.com/1453408/teaching-presented-law-grace-please

Edited.

19 What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man]

Paul the Apostle said, the LAW was ADDED...later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt because of transgressions and to make men more conscious of the sinfulness of sin.. Ladies and Gentlemen, what was their guilt? What was their transgression? that added the law to them? Please go back to the conversation in Exodus 19, now verse 7-8

7 So Moses called for the elders of the people and told them all these words which the Lord commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord has spoken we will do. And Moses reported the words of the people to the Lord.

Why would Moses 'report' their words to the Lord? In the Hebrew syntax, the way the people answered, it portrayed arrogance and self efforts. It denotes God should not do anything for them based on His Gracious acts as in verse 4 but that God should bless and favour them based on their WORKS, that DOING something which is basically what the law demands. That's why Paul called it WORKS of the LAW because the law demands DOING and the people said they will DO...in an arrogance manner, self efforts and self righteousness. They are saying, God, henceforth, don't deal with us based of Abrahamic covenant but based on OUR DOINGS and our PERFOMANCES.

Then God gave the Law, the 10 commandments in Exodus 20 because of this GUILT and TRANSGRESSION of the people. Then Paul called these 10 commandments MINISTRY OF DEATH. What does this mean? When Israel demanded or changed from Abrahamic covenant to the Law covenant, things changed. In Exodus 14:11; 15:23-25 and 16:3, the children of Israel complained and murmured BUT didn't die BUT after the covenant was changed from Abrahamic to the Law, they complain the same complain in Numbers 21:5-6 AND THEY DIED!!! This is because a different covenant (of the Law and Law dispensation) was in force now.

Okay, I just laid a foundation for my contribution. I will follow-up with these understanding to point out the errors as taught in your church and we will do a corrective surgery here.

God remembered His covenant with Abraham and GRACIOUSLY brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. They didn't DO anything for God to deliver them. They didn't OBEY any law for God to do this, bring them out of Egypt. It was all God's effort and Grace based on His promises and covenant with Abraham.

BEFORE the Law was given, the ten commandments inclusive; NONE of the children of Israel died.They murmured, complained, sinned, rebellious etc BUT they NEVER died, BEFORE the law was given. Why? Because the Abrahamic covenant was still in force - a foreshadow of the covenant of Grace (unmerited and undeserved favour) + faith. They didn't DO (which is a demand of the LAW) anything for God to open the red sea, feed them with manna from heaven, lead them with pillar of fire and cloud, give them water from the rock etc. They didn't obey any law, it was all based on God's favour because they were still under the Abrahamic covenant, the law had not in enforced yet at all these time the Gracious acts of God is operating.

The children of Israel DEMANDED the LAW by themselves - meaning they demanded God NOT to do anything for them based on His Gracious acts according to the Abrahamic covenant BUT that God should do things for them based on their WORKS.

3 And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him out of the mountain, Say this to the house of Jacob and tell the Israelites:

4 You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself.

5 Now therefore, if you will obey My voice in truth and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own peculiar possession and treasure from among and above all peoples; for all the earth is Mine. Exodus 19

Follow the conversation in the Spirit!!! In verse 4, It was God's gracious effort that is speaking that did all that was done for the Israelites. In verse 5, God demanded the obey His VOICE, NOT LAWS because in Exodus 19, the Law had not being given yet. God also demanded they keep His Covenant. Which covenant? Many people do not study deeply will think it is talking about the covenant of the law here, NO! It was still the covenant with Abraham that is still in force here and that's the intention of God here - to keep and follow on with the Abrahamic covenant, not to be 'under the law'. Alas, the big change came!!!

to be continue . . .

Since Israel is a 'type and shadow' of the church, in the same way, manner and truth, God never intended the church to live by LAWS, rules, regulations and ordinances etc but by Grace (unmerited and undeserved goodness and favour of God). The Law was given by Moses, Grace and truth came by Jesus, meaning, Christ didn't come to give us MORE Laws but Grace and truth. I will unveil how it all started, with the Israel and many of the New Testament church\believers are still into same error as Israel, doing same thing thinking God intended the Law for them.

Let's get into the word now,

This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.

Galatians 3:17, Amplified Bible (AMP)

The verse makes it clear that a covenant was in force BEFORE the Law covenant or Sinai or Mosaic covenant came into effect. That covenant is the Abrahamic covenant - a covenant based on foreshadow of Grace + faith.

Now, the scripture make it clear also that Abraham wasn't obeying any law officially to receive the promise and Grace of God because there wasn't any officially given or written law to obey, in the next verse of same Galatians 3.

18 For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise

19 What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man]

So, if Israel is the direct result of the promise or Abrahamic covenant, what Paul was teaching in Galatians is, God never intended the people of Israel to live or be given the law by the virtue of his promises to Abraham. But like I said, it was the children of Israel themselves that changed from or demanded the law - covenants of doing works and performance. How?

to be continue . . .

alexleo: Here is a teaching on law and grace as presented by my church. Pls go through it, learn or comment for our learning. Its quite a long one but I decided to break it in parts for easy reading. God bless you.


“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews” [John:4:22]). Jesus spoke the words that every Jew zealously believed; for many centuries ago the promise had been given to faithful Abraham by the Lord, “In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” [Genesis:12:3]).

Covenant at Sinai
The nation of Israel was the direct result and partial fulfilment of that promise to Abraham. At Mount Sinai, God outlined His Covenant with the Children of Israel; and they, in turn, endorsed the Covenant wholeheartedly as Moses related it to them. Stated in a simplified form, the great and wonderful call of God to the Children of Israel meant that God desired the Israelites to be a holy nation and a kingdom of priests -– a peculiar treasure unto God. They were to be messengers of God’s Covenant and evangelise, or win, the world and bring all men into God’s Covenant. God revealed Himself to the Children of Israel in an unmistakable and unforgettable way. He gave them the Ten Commandments, written with the finger of God upon the tables of stone, and certain laws, which Moses wrote in a book. God made the Israelites the custodians and guardians of these oracles of God, and marked the Children of Israel as the family and means whereby the Abrahamic Covenant would be finally fulfilled to the whole world through the birth of the Messiah.

I'll like to get into the 'meat' of the word and present an indepth systematic teaching on this subject because I understand it perfectly. This is not to boast but if I boast, I boast in the LORD that I know the Lord and his word through His Spirit.

First, this might be a little lengthy but I will try make it brief.

2. Israel is physical and literal but it conveys a 'spiritual' truth and a 'spiritual' Israel, which is the church of Christ. Hence, Israel is part of the church and NOT the literal church by itself, it's a NATION. Israel is a 'type and shadow' of the true 'spiritual' church, the body of Christ.

3. Your church taught that the Abrahamic covenant is the blessing to the whole world by Christ. That is correct!!! However, where the teaching erred was the bring of the Law to the people of Israel. If God is to establish the Abraham covenant to the whole world through Christ, it therefore means the Abraham covenant is NOT and NEVER based on the Law, that is, rules, regulations, dos and don'ts.

4. Under 'dispensation' teachings. One dispensation doesn't termination until another goes into effect. Just as, one covenant doesn't take effect until one is terminated. So, we can say, until the New Covenant took effect, the Old was still in force. In the same way, the Abrahamic covenant, a 'foreshadow' of the covenant of Grace is still in force before the Law was given or the covenant of the Law went into effect. Therefore, before Israel was given the Law, the Abrahamic covenant was still in force BUT it wasn't God who changed the covenant from that of Abrahamic into the law BUT the Israelites themselves did - God NEVER originally intended the Law for Israel but for them to live by Grace.

follow me closely, I'm about to unveil a mystery here...

Bidam: Proverbs 26: 1,2
As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honor is not
seemly for a fool. As the bird by wandering, as the swallow
by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.

I keep telling you to leave other people's covenant alone, you are in and have a better covenant. What curse are you talking about? Of the LAW which Christ had redeemed us from? Do you understand why it was said of Christ that is the greater than Solomon? You keep seeking wisdom from Solomon but you have unmeasurable wisdom in Christ.

Rhymeyjohn: Who is this saying this, you mean Jesus himself preached againts total love from the heart? what nonsense. about law, 1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
KJV

What if you have NO LAW to transgress againt? Do you still commit sin?

Lemme register myself for this course. I will fully participate. I have read the article or teaching by your church and I can say, it's truth mixed with errors. I do not say this to discredit your church but so we can look at it together and make corrections because, it can go a long way.

I should contribute fully line-by-line on Thursday or Friday to point out the errors from scriptures. I will be back.

^
I was privileged to hear that message and testimony too. Tuned Bakare is one of the fathers in the faith I respect so much. He started the clean-up process in the church and body of Christ, in Nigeria. I have joined him long ago and many others too. I have been praying, when I return home to Nigeria, there shall greater clean up by the power of the Spirit. God's grace is sufficient for me!!!

@ God2man,

What does "marriage" in that context mean? Can you pull out the meaning from concordance for us please? Thank you.

Okay, I will be back soon.

OLAADEGBU: In any case, the action of the Lord Jesus in submitting His body to be a substitutionary sacrifice[b] to pay the penalty for our sins and to endure God’s wrath against all the sins of the world, thereby enabling Him to be reconciled to us, with Christ’s perfect righteousness credited to our account, is seen in these three verses to be a basic theme of this great truth of Christ’s propitiatory work on the cross.[/b] And surely, as John says: “Herein is love,” that God would so love us that He would offer up His Son, and Christ would so love us that He would die for us. Surely, this is love! HMM

This is a New Testament teaching and revealing the finished works of the cross of Christ. However, what is supposed to be said is missing. So let's get into it.

1. When you said Christ is the 'penalty' for our sins and to endure God's wrath, which sin(s) are you referring to? - sins committed BEFORE salvation or AFTER salvation or both?

2. If Christ is the 'penalty' for sins, does God still punish believers in Christ after Christ is the penalty?

3. If you\we have Christ’s perfect righteousness credited to our account because of His propitiatory work on the cross, are we\you still in our sin even though we sin at times? Also, are we still a sinner...by nature of new birth?

God2man: Am i learning something new?
Oga Goshen360, i agree with your explanation on adultery, but you did not teach us the meaning of whoremonger, are they married too?

God bless you.
God2man.

God2man: My sister, it is never out of context, it is within the context, whoremonger for the single state, adulterers for the married state.
The Bible is teaching us to keep ourselves from both premarital and ungodly se.x.
How is it Honourable? Is it after premarital se.x? It is honourable and joyful, when the two come together pure and chaste, and the marriage is undefiled.

God bless you.
God2man.

First, @ God2man, read that verse from AS MANY AS POSSIBLE translations that exist, it's never applicable to the singles, it's 'husband and wife' being address, hence the reference to MARRIAGE. Marriage is the only institution that joins a man and a woman and they BECOME husband and wife.

2. Look up the word meaning for whoremonger from a concordance AS USED in that verse and read whatever meaning you have back into the text, it will help.

3. I agree, a single person can be a whoremonger but it also applies to a married. The whoremonger being referred to here is ONE IN MARRIAGE. The context says MARRIAGE is honourable, how do we take the context of marriage mentioned here and then turn around and say it applies to unmarried? You destroy the whole context!!! So, we understand the whoremonger being referred is one in MARRIAGE.

Find out, by doing what I said if it is true or not.

ARareGem: What exactly are you saying?

What I'm saying is, that scriptures Heb 13:4

"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed UNDEFILED, but the whoremongers and adulterers, God will judge"

is not addressing pre-marital sexx. It's addressing those who have sexx OUTSIDE their marriage. It says MARRIAGE. What is MARRIAGE? Is it courtship? The context further proves by saying WHOREMONGERS and ADULTERERS.....Who is an adulterer if not someone is MARRIED but still sleeping with another WHILE his or her spouse is alive or still in a MARRIAGE.

That's why I said, it is out of context scriptures, if anyone is going to throw scriptures at pre-marital sexx, get a scriptures that says so, not out of context scriptures.

Many people read that scripture in the superlative mood and some read 'into' that scripture. Do you understand I'm saying now?