₦airaland Forum

hopefuLandlord:
job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Sorry this does not show heaven. In heaven there is no day and night as we observe on earth so its not heaven abeg. No counting of days. Learn to be sincere.

Is it rational to claim that what millions of people of various religious backgrounds (including some atheists), scientists and others of sound academic background across the globe have confessed to have experienced as real over the years is hallucination?

HardMirror:
Nonsense!
Judged or not won't the occupants of hell not still cry for mercy even though it is too late, yet they shall still gnash their teeth in regret.
The devil may be judge for all I care, YET, visiting heaven and being fully aware of what hell is like should have been enough to make the devil still beg to be forgiven even if it won't change anything.

Pls show me where it says that the devil visited God in heaven to talk about Job or you bury your head in SHAME.
All the people that spoke with God in the bible- Abraham, Moses, Elijah and Jesus etc. did they visit him in heaven before doing that? The voice of God that spoke from heaven when Jesus was baptized did the people that heard it go to heaven before they heard it? The prayers we say here on earth to God and the answers we receive from him do we go to haven to receive it?
Keep messing yourself up while thinking you are making mockery of the scripture.

Scholar8200:
Well, the Bible is silent on this. This much is revealed: God knows the end of either options available to us; He knows our hearts and the tendencies therein to either side. Does God know all Lucifer was going to do before creating him, this I cannot tell.

Ok bro.

Here are more biblical verses concerning God's foreknowledge and predestination that i recently came across.

Acts 15;18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Acts 2;22, 23

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4; 27, 28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


MAy be we can ponder on this as well and see what lesson to be drawn from it.God bless you.

sylvalord:
Hello fellas, sometime ago I made a declaration that I was becoming an atheist, well now I am reversing that statement. I have found God. I have tasted of the lord and I have found that he is good. I don't care what people say. I am sticking with Jesus forever this time. THANK YOU JESUS FOR GIVING ME A SECOND CHANCE!

Thank God for you bro. May God continue to strengthen you. Forget about the deluded minds called atheists whose stock in trade is to vomit rubbish here. Thank God that you decided to do away with their vomit.

MetaHuman:
why are you so frustrated ...


You lot want us to believe its impossible for anything to come out of nothing, but you can't explain where your god came from and who created him or his/its world.
We don't even know which of the gods created the universe. Is it Allah, Zeus of yaweh?

I believe superman created you and you will be too stupid not to accept that superham created you..

Bakas.

.
You have finally displayed your gross stupldity.

kalus:
GOODNEWS BIBLE
WITH DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS/APOCRYPHA
TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION


EXTRACT FROM THE SECOND BOOK OF ESDRAS Ch. 7 v 75

THE SOUL AFTER DEATH:
75 Then I said, “Sir, may I ask you, please, to explain to me what happens when we die, when each of us must give back his soul? Will we be kept at rest until the time when you begin to make your new creation, or will our torment begin immediately?”
76 “I will answer that question also,” he replied, “but do not include yourself among those who will be tormented because they have no use for religion.
77 After all, you have a treasure of good works stored up with God Most High, which will not be shown to you until the last days.
78 But to answer your question about death. When God most High has pronounced the final decree that a person shall die, the soul leaves the body to return to the one who gave it. Immediately it praises the glory of God Most High.
79 Let me explain first about people who had no use for the ways of God Most High and hated those who worshipped him.
80 There is no place where their souls can go for rest; they must wander about forever in torment, grief, and sorrow. Their torment will progress in seven stages,
81 Firstly, they ignore the Law of God Most High
82 Secondly, they can no longer make a sincere repentance and obtain life.
83 Thirdly, they see the reward stored up for those who put their faith in the covenants of God most High.
84 Fourthly, they think about the torment that has been stored up for them in the last days.
85 Fifthly, they see angles guarding the homes of other souls in complete silence.
86 Sixthly, they recognize that they must soon be torment.
87 Seventhly, and worst of all, when they see the glory of God Most High, they are sick with remorse and shame. They cringe in fear, because while they were living they sinned against him. And now they are about to come before him to be judged on the last day.
88 “Now let me explain about those who followed the ways of God Most High and what will happen when the time comes for them to leave their mortal bodies.
89 While they lived on earth, through constant difficulty and danger, they served God Most High and carefully kept the Law given by the Lawgiver.
90 This is what they will receive:
91 They will rejoice when they see the great glory of God. He will receive them, and they will enter their rest in seven stages of joy.
92 The first joy is to have struggled hard and won the victory over the evil impulse which was formed in them, but which did not succeed in leading them from life into death.
93 The second is to see the endless wandering of the souls of the wicked and the punishment that is waiting for them.
94 The third is to know what a good report their Maker has given about them, that during their lifetime they kept the Law that was entrusted to them.
95 The fourth is to appreciate the rest that they are to enjoy in the places where they have been brought together, guarded by angles, in complete silence, and with the glory that is waiting for them at the last day.
96 The fifth is to rejoice that they have now escaped the corrupt world and will receive the future life as their possession. They can see both the narrow, troubled world from which they have been freed and the spacious world they will receive and enjoy forever.
97 The Sixth is to be shown how their faces will shine like the sun and how they are to be like the light of the stars that never die.
98 The seventh joy, and best of all, is when they rush to meet God face to face, with perfect trust and happiness, without any fear or shame. They served him during their lifetime and now they will receive from him their rewards in glory.
99 These rewards that I have been telling you about are those that have been prepared for the souls of the righteous. I described to you earlier the torment that the rebellious will suffer.”
100 Then I asked, “When the souls of the righteous are separated from their bodies, will they be given time to see what you have told me about?”
101 They will be free for seven days,” he answered, “and during that time they will be able to see the things I have told you about. After that they will be brought together with the other souls in their homes.”
102 Then I said, “Sir, please tell me whether the righteous will be able to ask God Most High to show mercy on the unrighteous on Judgement Day.
103 Will fathers be able to pray for their children, children for parents, brothers for brothers, relatives for those near to them, and friends for those dear to them?”
104” I will be happy to tell you,” he replied. “Judgement Day is final and sets the final seal on truth for all to see. You know that in this age a father cannot send his son to be sick for him or sleep or eat or be healed for him. An owner cannot send his slave to do these things for him, nor can a person send his best friend.
105 In the same way, on that day, no one will be able to pray for another person. Each person will receive the punishment or reward for his own sinfulness or righteous.”

Which book is this one?

Scholar8200:
Sure He calls certain people to play certain roles according to His good purpose. But such call is what it is, a call. They may yield or not. For example, Moses's call was to lead the Israelites to the Promised land but he failed to accomplish it.

Now, didnt Jesus know that Judas was to be the traitor? He did! After all Bible says concerning some that Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew what was in them.. Was anything done to prevent this, Yes! Bible says Jesus loved them all hence I believe He must have prayed for them all besides, Jesus spoke of being betrayed openly and he was there.

However, notice the prayer point(faith fails not), and the role Jesus played in ensuring this after Resurrection. Peter was back to fishing but Jesus restored him; Judas, had over-reacted - killed himself.

I perceive Judas had thought the worst will be that, like John the Baptist, Jesus would be imprisoned hence when Jesus warned that woe is he by which the Son of Man goes, his covetousness would have waved it aside!

Your answers are quite educative. Now in the case of Lucifer did God know that Lucifer will fall before creating him? Or did this knowledge come to God after creating him or was the whole thing a surprise to God?

MetaHuman:
looks like you have problem with comprehension cos you just repeated everything I said.


Read slowly before you quote.



To a computer, I'm eternal cos I'm not subjected to internal workings of a computer, I created it.
But I have to be somewhere to create computer, which is earth (universe).

Then who created earth, you will say god did it.
Then where was god when he created this universe? Outside universe right? Then who created that outside universe and who created god into outside universe or did he just appear from no where and started creating our universe.
If then so, it means its possible for me to appear from no where and start creating computer out of nothing.


Hope you will read slowly this time and not ramble.






You lot just don't get the idea of eternal god is dumb and not even biblical.

you are the one dumb. Does the computer know how you(its creator) came into existence? Then how can your small brain (which you think is big) fashion out how God (your creator) came into existence. You seem to be confused.

Scholar8200:
Foreknowledge of events and as One that knows our hearts(which controls our choices), our responses thereto.

Regarding Peter, Jesus knew this because, being filled with the Spirit, Jesus gave a Word of Knowledge (available to you and me too) that satan wanted to sift Peter and later detailed by what means satan intended but remember Jesus had to pray that his faith would not fail.

Okay. He has foreknowledge of events but not the specific people who will be involved in the event?

Sunnycliff:
Since GOD is omniscient, it means that he knows what our ends will be and it won't take him by surprise.

He knows he has given everyone the offer of salvation which is free and subject to our choices!

So there is no extremes of predestination rather the choice we make!

Does it mean God knew the end of Lucifer, Adam and Eve etc. and still created them? Or he didnt know until he created them?

MetaHuman:
so who created the eternal god or the environment of eternal god?

E.g to a computer, I'm eternal, but did I create myself and the earth?

You created computer but you are not living inside the computer. God created the universe but he is not living inside the universe with us. Thats the message being passed.

Again you dont posses the same body like the computer, yours is a flesh while the computer is not. Same thing, God does not posses the same flesh with us. While ours is phyiscal, his own is spiritual. Ours is mortal while His is immortal. Get the message and stop fooling yourself.

Scholar8200:
Bible tells us , 'out of the heart are the issues of life" and God knows our hearts and its inclinations and leanings which decide what the will chooses.

It further tells us that there are records in Heaven where our names are written and our deeds not pre-written but as they occur. Implying that there is nothing like, "God has already written all I will do and concluded it with where I will spend eternity even before I was born". This is wrong and erroneous. Else, what purpose do those records serve?

Yes, God has a purpose for each life eg He told Jeremiah that before he was born He purposed that Jeremiah would be a prophet. However, this is not against Jeremiah's will. From Jonah, we see that Jeremiah could choose to follow this purpose or rebel against it.

.
OK. But in the case of Peter, Jesus told him before hand that he Will betray him before the cock crows three times and it happened. In the case of Abraham Gcd told him that his children will be uncountable like the stars but they will be taken into captivity in Egypt and it happened several years later as God said it.
Also Jesus gave an insight to the last days events when his disciples asked him and today we are seeing it. Don't all these confirm God's foreknowledge?

Scholar8200:
The highlighted shows that God's plan of redemption is the same as His purpose in Creation - Man being in His Image. And that purpose was meant for ALL men, not a select few. Saying therefore that God has pre-selected some and rejected others is to say there is an addition to that original purpose which is NOT true.
The call comes to ALL those who respond therefore are the ones who enter His purpose determined from the Beginning. You can choose to join the chosen ones by responding or drop from that choice by backsliding.

For example, after the Isrealites made the Golden Calf, Moses made a call and the Levites responded hence God chose them for Himself among the Israelites instead of the firstborn.
Eli was a Levite and his family was specially chosen. But when he and his sons misbehaved, God gave a version of "Whosoever" in 1 Samuel 2:30

30 Wherefore the Lord God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the Lord saith, Be it far from me; [size=15pt]for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.[/size]



Meaning God's Eternal purpose was what underpinned the plan of Redemption. That is why another passage talked about the Lamb slain from the
foundation of the World pointing to the fact that it was an accomplished fact according to God's Eternal Purpose after the fall.(though it took time to be fulfilled).
Now if you consider this passage, it is just an expatiation on Romans 8:29 of being conformed to His Image in accordance to His Original purpose in Genesis 1 for Adam and ALL his descendants.



NO. Else this passages will be a LIE:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that [size=16pt]any[/size] should perish, but that [size=17pt]all[/size] should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4

OK. But do you think God has foreknowledge of our lives and knows how each of us will make our choices in life and how we will end.?

@Kilo4sure, Thanks you have giving me some insights too. I see religious section in naiiraland as a place we share bible knowledge and learn from one another and thats what exactly is going on in this thread so I'm happy for it. I also appreciate 4kings and others for their questions and contributions here which has also been educative. More contributions are still welcome.

@Kilo4sure and Oaroloye, are you guys saying that God cannot see the end from the beginning as recorded in the scripture? Which means he doesnt know our future?

[quote author=Scholar8200 post=48302570][/quote]You didn't comment. What's your view about this subject?

Uyi168:
The concept of predestination invalidates the concept of freewill wch the the main-stream christianity preaches...or is it possible for one to be predestined and stil have freewill?

Freewill is not absolute. It still has limits. May be some people are predestined while others are not.

Growing:
Goodness is not a creature. It is a quality or characteristic. But I put up the post not to argue. So, believe what you will. Peace.

You put up the post not to argue i agree but do you want people not to question your teachings? Does this show that you dont have enough biblical points to support your teaching?
Well, this has been the characteristics of most christians. They like to sweep things under the carpet and when you call them out to clear some grey areas with biblical support the next thing will be- believe what you like. Thats not the best bro. I think we have passed this stage in christianity.

kindly attend to this thread on predestination. I want to get more views about the biblical portions i quoted there. Thanks.
Here is the link https://www.nairaland.com/3274234/predestination-christians-kindly-contribute-subject

HCpaul:
Sigh!!!

But both are composed of tangible components that are real, physical, can be seen, ken and are kin to evidence and reality. They are not as abstract, intangible and unkenned as the Biblical myths in which God is the figure.

You are just deceiving yourself. Human can talk while the non living things cant talk. Human can move from one place to the other on their own while the non living things cant move on their own. Human can breath while the non living things cannot breathe. Human have emotions while non living things dont have. There are a whole lot of differences between both but your foolish mind will not want to see it. Continue in your delusion.

Or does this means that those of us created in this new testament era are predestined to be partakers of the redeeming power of Jesus. I need more info.

Oyibo atheists can be sincere enough to bow to any such convincing material but Nigerian atheists(especially nairaland species) are so foolish, dumb, idiotic, insincere and crooked minded that they will continue to wallow in their delusion even when they have seen convincing materials.

Growing:
There are no excuses for God here. If you learn about interpreting the bible, then you should know what is called exegesis and hermeneutics and I will give you an example. Deuteronomy 22:8 says, “When you build a house, put a parapet around the roof; otherwise, if someone falls off, you will bring bloodguilt upon your house.” Exegesis enables us to realize that the buildings back then usually had a flat roof. A parapet, a low protective wall built on the edge of the roof, was therefore for the purpose of preventing a fall. Hermeneutics hence will tell us that we do not have to literally follow this text because the kind of roof we have in our time is not flat. Back then people do sleep on the roof, today who does that? This is just an instance to show that it is not every sentence of the bible that we should literally take as God’s command to us here and now. I know that the house you live in today does not have a parapet even though you can see that God commanded such in the bible. To know about what I am talking about, you can read my post on it: http://growingthroughlife.com/how-well-do-you-interpret-the-bible/.
So, applying what I have said, the Isaiah 45:7 you quoted does not literally mean God creates evil. Rather it means he permits it and he permits it for a greater good. Remember that the old testament was written in Hebrew and when you translate it to another language, the translation will never be 100% perfect.
Evil is a lack of good and to suppose that God who is perfect will literally create good blasphemes God himself because God is goodness in perfection with no iota of evil and therefore can never intentionally create evil. Evil is darkness, God is light.
The bible is not a book for anyone to take one line and read and just talk about it anyhow. It must be studied and reflected upon for proper understanding. As imperfect as we are, we are reasonable enough to condemn stealing. Are you saying God created stealing?
Evil is morally bad and to say God creates it makes God evil. God cannot do that. It is impossible for God to create evil considering God's nature. Evil is not a thing; it is not a creature, therefore, it was not created by God.

The deuteronomy you quoted is a different thing from Isaiah. In Isaiah God was not describing any archaic thing or making any archaic statement there. That statement is as plain an as valid in our time. Lets not paint words here bro. Even if God created evil i dont have problem with God about it. He is wise and knows what he wants. Anything he wants is okay. Now in Job 2;10 see what is also written there-

10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?.

If you say God did not create evil because evil is not a thing, it equally means that God did not create good because good is not a thing too. Do you agree?

Growing:
People have often questioned God why there is so much evil in the world. Some even doubt God's existence due to the presence of evil. They ask, "How can such a good God we claim to exist see so much evil and do nothing about it?" Well, let me put it bluntly - that question shows ignorance.
There are two beings namely Creator and creatures. Needless to say, every creature was created by the Creator and this includes plants, animals, and man. Evil is not a thing, hence, evil is not a creature. This leads me to the first conclusion: GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL.
Now, if God did not create evil, how come we have evil in the world? You see, evil is not a thing but it is real just as blindness is not a thing but it is real. Evil is a wrong choice or the consequence of a wrong choice. Let me bring it home. When some politicians decide to loot funds (wrong choice) which would have been used to serve the people, that is evil. When the effect of that becomes lack of power and infrastructure which negatively impacts the economy and brings hardship (consequence), that is also evil. You can see that God is not really the cause. God has been gracious enough to bless us with resources that will make this country great but man's selfishness is stopping that from being actualized. The resources that God has blessed the world with can satisfy every man but those resources cannot satisfy man's greed. So, the second conclusion: EVIL ORIGINATES FROM MAN'S ACTIONS.
But someone can still ask, "Is God not still the origin of evil since evil comes from man whom he has created?" I answer that by giving an instance. If you have an adult as a son and despite the good upbringing and advice you have given him, he goes ahead to commit murder, it will be ridiculous for anyone to blame you for your son's murder just because he is your son. Your son has freewill and when he misuses it, he should be blamed and also pay for that not you. So, blaming God for evil is completely silly. If we can properly connect cause and effect, we would see that even war is the consequence of man's wrong choice.
Another question, "Why don't God just end evil now as in now now so that the world will enjoy peace?" But do you really understand what that means? God had the option of creating us in such a way that we would be more or less robots who would take orders and fulfill them without reasoning. If we were such creatures, we would not have the capacity to experience joy and would not have intelligence. Now that is not a creature in the image and likeness of God. God created us and gave us freewill so that our actions can be carried out voluntarily and not under compulsion just as God carries out his actions voluntarily and not under compulsion. Since God decided to create us the way he did, you can bet your life on it that it is better than creating us to be like robots because all God's actions are for the highest good.
I see evil coming to an end in three ways. First, by God taking away our freewill so that we take orders from him. But this will mean that we would not be like God and is a lesser good than the way we are. So, scratch that. Second, by God destroying the source of evil at the point when it originates. If you understand all I have been saying so far you would see that not a single man has a chance if this were to be the case. Evil begins not when the action is carried out but at the conception of the thought. So imagine God destroying any man that has conceived an evil thought. Except you and I have not sinned, both of us would have been gone by now and we can be sure our destination would not have been heaven because at that state of departure, we would be in sin. This should lead you to understand that when God allows you to exercise your freewill even when you commit evil without destroying you, he wants you to come back to your senses and in afterlife enjoy the place he has made for you. So do not interpret God's patience as weakness. God is only being patient with the evil we carry out for our own salvation.
Third and the best way, evil can come to an end when we make the right choices.
Last question, "Why will God even permit evil when the consequence is devastating?" I answer this with what happened with the early Christians. They were converting men to a new way of life which was something good. But they were being persecuted which was evil. One of the consequence of the persecution was that many fled Jerusalem to other parts of the world. Guess what happened? As they fled to other parts of the world, they took the gospel with them and made converts in the cities they came to. This was something good and we are Christians today because they did that. So, my last conclusion: GOD PERMITS EVIL BECAUSE HE HAS THE POWER TO BRING GOOD EVEN OUT OF IT.
I decided to put up this post because many people are having problems with the whole idea of evil being in the world. I hope it helps.

www.growingthroughlife.com

You made some good points but here is what God said in Isaiah 45;7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


Lets not go about making excuses for God. He is the creator of us all and if he deemed it fit to have evil operate in the world then thats it. He is in charge of the universe and i bow to his wisdom. Period.

UrennaNkoli:
I was at a church and everything was just going on fine until the time for offering came. About 7 different categories of offering was collected.
1 . Tithe
2. Offering
3. Building offering
4. Offering for development of the church
5. Offering for the welfare of ministers
6. Special offering for the welfare of the pastor
7. Offering for PHCN bill
Now my question is " is this really how its meant to be" or am i just getting something wrong ? Most especially looking at the members and you can tell that most of these people can't even afford a 3 square meal.
lalasticlala seun

They are wolves in sheep's cloth, devouring people's pocket. Run for your dear life.

HCpaul:
I love the question just that the popular Christians on nairaland are coming to provide an informative answer.

God - The uncreated creator.

God - The beginning and the end.

God - The first and the last.

God - A fragment of idea in the Christians mind.

Imagine! Immortality created mortality. Just sounded some how.

What you said could be likened to this-

"imagine! Human; a living being, created non living things, sounds some how"

analice107:
Where do you suppose he was? In the realm of the natural? This is the realm of the natural, the realm of time. He lives outside of this realm, he lives outside of time.
It's like an architect sitting down to draw a house plan, and goes ahead to build the house, then you come to ask, where was that man before he drew the plan and build the house? Does it make sense to you?

I think both of you are saying the same thing. God dwells in eternity. A timeless realm. Both of you are right.

IMASTEX:
This world is indeed a complex place. You might be forced to agree after hearing this account. A friend, Joe (not real name) came to me lust in thought about what to do. According to him, he had finalized every wedding arrangement including printing of invitation cards, etc only to be invited by his pastor last week. On getting there, the pastor requested for his TITHE CARD. Unfortunately, he was one of those who doesn't subscribe to owning a tithe card, even though, he is a tither. So, when he couldn't provide his pastor with the tithe card, the pastor bluntly informed him that he can't conduct the wedding ceremony without that record. After much pleading and negotiations including involving some family members, his fiancée, etc. The pastor finally gave him an option of paying accumulated tithe. A two years back log was calculated for him, amounting to hundreds of thousands. Which must be paid before the wedding can hold.

Now the issues is that, Joe doesn't feel pleased been subjected to such conditions. However, to shoulder such task, Joe suggested cutting down some of the wedding activities/expenses but his fiancée didn't accept it. And he didn't quite conform to holding the wedding in his fiancée's church because of the small size of the church building which is even undergoing construction work. Some of his family members are even suggesting to just go for registry after the traditional marriage and forget about the white wedding. All these issues are what is giving him worries.

Please, your matured advise/opinions will be greatly appreciated. The wedding is suppose to hold 20th of this Month. Yet, no valid conclusion is reached.

If you are sure that you are not a liar then mention the name of the church. Or are you a liar?

Hello brethren, kindly give your views on predestination as recorded in the scriptures quoted below for more understanding to the readers here(including myself).

[b]Romans 8;28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified


Also

Ephesians 1;4-6, and 10-12.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[/b]

Does the above scripture imply that those who are born again now and those who will be born again in future are predestined for it? Which means those who are not predestined to be born again will never be no matter what? And those who are predestined to be born again will be no matter what? Kindly contribute for more understanding. Thanks.


N.B. Pls note that this thread is not intended to mock God. He is the creator and whatever he want cannot be questioned. I.e. assuming what i think about the above scripture is actually what it means.

hopefulLandlord:
Bros, I'm not saying you're tryna win

But its hard if not impossible to separate predestination from foreknowledge

That's the point, nobody "knows"

NB: the verse ain't false, but since I can't remember it specifically, I'll let that slide

Enjoy

Sorry bro. You might be right. I came across something in the bible that seems to support what you said. I'm opening a thread onvit to get more views from my fellow christians. Thanks.

@4kings, With the biblical portions i came across on predestination, i think you might be right. It appears that God's foreknowledge and predestination are linked. Let me open a thread for it so that i can get the views of my christian brothers about it. Thanks.

4kings:
Let's analyse this: according to you, **Foreknowledge of our beginning to the end of course means that HE KNOWS how we will END but it doesnt mean that he PLANNED it to be so since he already gave us the FREEDOM to make our CHOICES. This means HE KNOWS the redeemed.**

Yahweh has foreknowledge: this means he has THOUGHT about it, right?
Then he ACTUALISES his THOUGHT, by creating the universe and all its inhabitants.
We have also established the fact that he has foreknowledge of the END, 'HE KNOWS how we will END' - according to you.
Predestination simply means assigning for a particular use or purpose. Now the purpose here is his 'thought' and the assignment is his 'actualisation of this thought', not so?

It seems u are concentrating on the warnings and promises he gave to men, but with what I've said we can establish also that 'it is part of his purpose', because he has THOUGHT of it beforehand. You dig?

Not exactly. The way i see it is this-
God wants to create a world where beings who will have the ability to make choices will inhabit. The choice they will make is between good and
evil. Whatever choice anyone makes, he faces the consequences. From the inception of your life he forsees you and how you will make your choice.
The part of the warning is- why will he warn us if he has already structured us to make a particular choice?
Where i think both of us have different ideologies is the part of God structuring us to make the choices that we will make.

Anyway you ve made some good points in your submissions so far and might be right.

4kings:
I believe in a creator who doesn't interfere in man's action (Deism)

So man should do whatever he likes and he doesnt care?