₦airaland Forum

hopefulLandlord:
Bros, I'm not saying you're tryna win

But its hard if not impossible to separate predestination from foreknowledge

That's the point, nobody "knows"

NB: the verse ain't false, but since I can't remember it specifically, I'll let that slide

Enjoy

This discussion and my answers has been based on the biblical accounts. I didnt rule predestination out. Predestination and foreknowledge can be separated but one cannot know it all.

4kings:
Haaaaa, you said that an omin-potent\science god knew Lucifer will fall, which has caused the nature of the story from Genesis to Jesus death(redemption plan), is it not rational to also say that the redeemed are already known, just like Lucifer ?
Damnn, I hope I'm not d confused one, please reread the discussion so far.



.

It seems you ve forgotten some of the areas we touched in this discussion.

Predestination is one of the things you raised and i explained to you my views about predestination and gave instances of my biblical reasons for it.
I talked about God's foreknowledge and you gave me instances of Moses and Abraham and his children as predestination. I explained to you how the instances you gave falls under foreknowledge. I also have maintained that we have freedom of choice but we cant choose not to suffer the consequences of our chosen act. I mentioned the case of lucifer and God's foreknowledge about his fall and that of man. I'm wondering what i said here that is different from my position about God having foreknowledge about us or my position about our freedom of choice.
God having foreknowledge of our life from beginning to the end does not mean he planned it to be as it is. Except you are telling me that predestination and foreknowledge means the same thing to you.
Foreknowledge of our beginning to the end of course means that he knows how we will end but it doesnt mean that he planned it to be so since he already gave us the freedom to make our choices. This means he knows the redeemed.
Again you tried to clarify me that predestination may not apply to everything about a person of which i said i dont rule you out.

4kings:
Damnn, if u say now that the sole aim of the creator is to first please himself, then how can u be so sure that his creations have not been predestined, for his purpose ?



.

And where you asled me similar question to this i answered you that if everything about us is predestined then there wouldnt be need for the warnings in the scriptures, no need for the scripture to tell us several times to pray, no need for the admonitions in the scripture, no need for sermon etc. You also brought up an issue about salvation which i told you that salvation is for whosoever will according to the scripture.

4kings:
Againnn, if ur reply to this is 'maybe or maybe not', why then are u certain about his purpose?


.

My reply to this was based on the word "entertainment" which you used there.

4kings:
Haba!, shey u no like Yahweh again abi, u won covert ?

No conversion intended but we need to discuss this your God. Except you dont have confidence in him yet to be out to discuss about him.

hopefulLandlord:
You act as though you know it all, you explain everything in the way you "think" and try to present that as "knowledge" if you can't see the problem in that, more power to you,

read through your posts so far, that's why this discussion is getting longer while going nowhere in particular

I can't remember the verse exactly but it's in the old testament, he quoted it and I opened the bible to read it and it was exactly the way he said, I remember that vividly because it was also a discussion similar to what you're having right now

He admitted his ignorance about things like predestination and the belief in "fatality" (read the meaning if you only know one definition of fatality)

The problem you have is that you want me to see things only from you point of view. it doesnt work that way .It shows you are actually acting as though you know it all.
The guy i'm discussing with isnt imposing his views on me and i am not imposing mine. We are just sharing our ideas about these mysteries surrounding life and thats how people learn from each other.
Maybe you think I am on a mission to WIN in this discussion as some of you do. I am not. I did not rule predestination out what i did is to point out my own views about it then separate it from foreknowledge.
I didnt say that the bible verse your coworker quoted for you is false. What i said is that it didnt specify what we are discussing as one of the areas we shouldnt have knowledge about. Or did it? And if it didnt, why do you think that no man should have knowledge about it since your coworker doesnt have it?

hopefulLandlord:
Your words keep drifting here and there,

I see. Because i am not saying what you want to hear. Abeg park well.

hopefulLandlord:
Its not by force to know, even your bible said it that there are some info you won't know and he's kept away from you (can't remember the verse but was quoted by a coworker when I asked certain questions)

And did the bible mention those info that i wont know? And who claims that he knows all?
Your coworker has his own understanding of biblical matters and i have mine.

4kings:
Which means the fate of every being has already taken place(technically), no matter their actions it leads them to their fate, which is what i've been saying since.

Nope. like i said when we started this discussion, it is the world that is predestined to be a place of good and evil. Man is not predestined for good or for bad rather he is given the ability to choose which side of the divide to be..The redemption plan is there for those who may CHOOSE to be redeemed back to good(righteousness) from bad. Thats the point i ve been making

4kings:
Exactly, from my understanding of the bible, this is how i see your God, one who does as he pleases(no offence).

Yea, thats what is also contained in the scripture. And of course no one can create with the sole aim of pleasing what he will create. The very first interest that brings up the idea for you to create is not to please what you will create. So God's very first interest for creating us cannot be to please us first rather to please himself first, then us.

4kings:
I am glad u are openminded, based on that, this life is just like an entertainment to Yahweh.

Maybe or may not be. And if it is, then thats it. Mine is to always choose the good side(righteousness).

4kings:
I really don't have any more opinion on Yahweh than the ones you already know, which is:
Since he is omni-potent\science, then fates have already been decided, and freewill is an illusion.

Ok thats your opinion. My position is different.

4kings:
But hey, i don't believe in Yahweh

Yea you said it . Now tell me about this your God.

4kings:
So basically, u are saying God intended to create the universe, saw beforehand that eve would fall,

Infact lets start from Lucifer period. God knew before hand that lucifer will fall and still went ahead to create him. God also knew that man will fall and still went ahead to create him. The scripture talked about Christ as the lamb of God slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
The shows that the redemption plan for man was made from the Beginning of the creation of this world.
For him to have gone ahead to allow things go on despite foreseeing it shows he wants it that way for some reasons we may quess.

What if God being a creator possesses the attribute to create both what he likes and what he hates- i.e. good and evil, positive and negative, strong and weak etc. as it appears to be?
And if we should be shocked at the above poser, then the next question willl be- who defines what God should posses and what he should not possess in order to be God? is it we the created? I mean do we have the right to say because Gof allowed so and so things he doesnt qualofy to be God?
Does God even want us to see him as one who will not allow evil on us because he loves us? If he wanted that he wouldnt have created any being that will bring evil into the world in the first place.

4kings:
also saw beforehand hand that he would get angry and create hell of eternal torture for men and fallen angels, and still he went on with the mission?

And in line with his attributes to create good and evil, what if one of his attribute include creating a place of total punishment for beings who ends up in evil and a place of total comfort for beings who end up good?
These are some of the questions i do ponder in my hearts. Kindly share you opinion.

4kings:
I don't get.

I mean that if God forsees an evil act or bad choice he will be angry because he hates sin but he will still need to communicate it to man in order to drive that message. He will make his anger known when man has committed the sin but it doesn't mean he was just seeing the sin and getting angry at the time you committed it.
If God should be displaying anger over all the sins we will commit in life when we start forming in our mother's womb or on the day we are born you can imagine how ugly and confusing it will look to us having been created not to forsee our future like God
For example, if when Moses was born God starts saying-"Moses you will see the land but you won't enter there. Moses don't even beg me...." You can imagine how confused people around will be.

0ubenji:
Oh..well..just what I needed to know: you aint well read on the concept of "rapture"..u merely presented a cliched bible reference and that's it.
I dint tell u to read my mind, being well read on a subject as vast as dis is evidential when u cud atleast provide anoda scriptural reference either similar in meaning or that complements it. If I tell u adultery is not a sin now, you'll surely bombard me with countless biblical references to tackle me. How is it u come to a debate with a single point(that even ur opponent knows), which U tend to over-emphasize til it is stripped-off of relevant meaning.
Aii..dat aside...I'd lend a helping hand, sinx that 1Thessalonians 4 is wah u got.
Luke 17:22-37.
Read(and understand) that and decipher whether it talks bou the rapture or not., before I proceed.

Young man present your case and stop blabbing. U opened a thread and it's left for you to give details of the points you raised.

4kings:
Wow, never heard of this kind of explanation.
However, based on your explanation, if he foretells what he has seen already, then don't u think that it doesn't make sense for Him to later get angry at moses and refusing the chances of him getting into the promise land?, also it wouldn't make sense if u compare what I just said to the case of Adam and Eve. Let me also bring a good part; it wouldn't also make sense in that scenario, where moses acted as an intermediary(Jesus like), when God was angry at the Israelite and wanted to wipe them away. Right or wrong? Explain.

.

.

One thing u will understand is that God is communicating with man, and in doing this he has to do it in the level we can understand. To drive the message of how he abhors sin or loves good, he has to communicate it in our level of understanding. A close example is when an adult is teaching kids in kindergarten, she will speak and act like them in order to communicate with them properly. It doesn't mean that that's the way the adult talks and behaves.

You people have furthermore exposed the foolishness of the OP. I remember when I did my Masters degree my project supervisor warned me seriously against Wikipedia as its not a reliable site for research.
Op was one of the feeble minds who jumped into atheism without thinking well in those days it appeared atheism was on the increase. Trust Nigerians, they like new thing so they rushed into it.
Today some of them are dumping atheism and returning back to God.

bolt000:
Sorry to break it to you but Philo did write about it, Visit http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/philo.html

All your other arguments are Invalid.

Sorry what you posted does not answer my question.

weblord1900:
God exist only in mind.. that's all.
It's a set up used by early man to guide the actions of men in relation to his fellow man.
it's just like fairy tale. Some kind of stories cooked up by our fore fathers to control our behavior as a child. Eg is a story ending with punishment after misbehaving. God and Bible is oyinbo version of theirs. But we took it more serious than what it meant. ..

And your forefathers were so intelligent to "craft" such intelligent stories, prophecies, laws, decrees, teachings etc that are contained in the scriotures in such a very early period of life when the world was still waking up to knowledge? And nobody was also intelligent enough as well to put up a book that will counter the contents of the scripture among such a generation that "crafted" the scriptue? At least to tell the workd that it is false? You dey try. And the scripture and its messages kept growing in popularity across ages yet no counter book until in recent generations when foolish people like you began to doubt the bible. You are just blabbing.

weblord1900:
The Bible is full of errors..

Errors to you but meaningful to those who understand it.

weblord1900:
It also record some inequality treatment by God.

Are you a co-creator with God for you to tell him what to do and what not to do with his creatures? Did he ask for your permission or input before creating the universe and everything in it or before creating you? Did you sign an agreement with him before creation on how he willl run the universe? So what grounds do you have to judge him? Oga park well biko.

weblord1900:
When the Israelite sin against God, God will cause an enemy nation to fight against them. When they pray he will allow them to defeat that same nation.
A peaceful nation destroyed,, are they not the children of God.
1 Samuel 15:1-9
God caused war between Israelite and amalekites because of their ancestors opposed Israelite when they are coming from Egypt. He tasked them to destroy all the men, women, children, babies nd their animals.

it's unfair

Again you have no grounds to judge God since you didnt sign a pact with him before creation. You are just blabbing.

I have always said this that in the animal kingdom, human will be perceived as cruel, wicked,, dangerous, unfair and evil because of the way we slaughter these animals on daily basis but to us we are just enjoying our lives with the meat in our food and with other things we use them for.
whatever perception that animals have about human is immaterial to us. As far as we are concerned, they are serving their purposes in our lives. Likewise,whatever perception you have about God is immaterial to Him. He is simply running the universe as he pleases. Theres nothing you can do about it than to yell, cry, deny,abuse and make all sorts of noise.

bolt000:
Yea, good perspective.. I also think of the bible as a book that was over exxagerated.
which brings about questions like; "Why didn't Philo of Alexandria write about Jesus or Christianity?", "

Why didnt your Philo Alexandra write against the bible. At least to alert the world of its "falseness"?

bolt000:
"Why didn't Paul write a gospel?"

Was Paul among the disciples who worked with Christ when he was on earth? Why didnt Paul write against the gospel? Why did he make reference to what was written in the gospel in his epistles? Why did he have anything to do with apostle Peter? How come all that they wrote were related to each other?

bolt000:
"Why didn't Jesus write anything at all? "

What was the mission of Jesus on earth? To make disciples of himself. He commanded thee disciples to go into the world and spread what they have learnt from him, and that is part of what they just did in the gospels and epistles. If Jesus had written, you would have still asked why didnt his disciples write or you would have picked another hole. We know your games but it wont work.

4kings:
Addressing the statement, 'He doesn't impose', did u know that ur God sought to kill moses (exodus4:24), just because of his doubt and fear?,read from verse 1 to understand, also remember the case of Jonah.

From verses 1-17 of the Exodus 4 that you quoted, God had a thorough dialogue with Moses where he did convincing signs for him and also gave him encouraging words.
From verses 18-20 Moses embarked on the assignment God gave to him, his father also gave his consent and wished him well. He didnt disobey God and there is nothing to show that what God did in verse 24 was because he was angry with Moses for being doubtful and afraid. Verse 24 didnt also show any form of imposition because Moses had already been convinced and had embarked on the assignment BEFORE the verse 24 incident, which happened while he was on his way to Egypt.
In verse 28 Moses told Aaron all that God told him and the signs he commanded him to do. He never mentioned the verse 24 incidence as one of the experiences he had with God concerning that matter.
Obviously what happened in verse 24 was irrelevant to that matter at hand. Only God knows why what happened in verse 24 happened.
In the case of Jonah, he suffered the consequences of choosing not to obey God. Remember i said that there is no absolute freedom anywhere in this world. While you are very free to choose what you want to do, you are not very free to choose not to suffer the consequences of your actions. Some people repent while facing the consequences of their action while some others stand their ground and face it even to the point of dying. In the case of Jonah, he repented while facing the consequences of his actions.
God is still in charge so he cannot just be watching us without making interventions. God plays his part, man plays his part and other creatures play theirs too.

4kings:
When I asked u about the fate of the men of God in the bible in relation to the choices they could have taken, I added scriptures of where they were spoken of, apparently u didn't read them.

Sorry, my bad. I read some and used it to reply. I usually have very tight schedule which gives me limited time here. If you noticed, most of my replies to you come late in the night only a few comes in the day time and those ones are usually short replies.

4kings:
So let me make my point clear according to the reply u gave:
How can an omni-potent/science God, who u said created All men with purpose(whether great or average), foretell about a person, and because the person refused to walk in it, then he imposes his plan on another, and if the other person refuses to walk in it then he .......(I think u get my point), bearing in mind that u said all men were created for a purpose. Or are u insinuating that your God created the ''just in case class of people''?

He foretells what he saw.(i mean the event as it happened) Whoever he saw that carried the assignment will surely carry it out and thats the one he speaks out. The once he saw cannot carry the assignment has no need to be mentioned. We cant tell how many people he sought for before getting the one who truly will carry it out which he foretold . So the issue of the one he has seen carried it out turning around to say no does not arise here. I dont know if you understood my point here anyway.

4kings:
Also note that those who were foretold about and what they were supposed to do, that the dates/periods were also spoken about just like in the case of moses(gen15:13, after 400 years) and Jesus(in daniel12:11-12), that's all I can remember, and Bible scholars have also confirmed this dates and others that were foretold.

In the case of Genesis 15;13 that you quoted, God was voicing his foreknowledge about the children of Abraham. If you read from verse 1 of that chapter you will notice that Abraham had a friendly discussion with God which led to that pronouncement in verse 13. If the pronouncement was about predestination then it wouldnt have been that of a sad news that Abraham's children will go into captivity for 400 years.
I mean, if Abraham and God were quarelling before that pronouncement then one would ve had some grounds to believe that it was because God was angry that he decided to make children who will go into captivity for Abraham, at least to punish his emotions.'
This is not to say that divine intervention cannot play out in some issues.

4kings:
Please note that though I don't believe in Yahweh,

YAhweh is Jewish name for God. In Igbo he is Chineke, in Yoruba he is Oluwa and so on.

4kings:
I am not trying to castigate you, but just to get a honest opinion on different biblical issues(such as this: Purpose) from a thinking christian.

yea i understand you bro. I am not rigid on biblical matters. I am always open to discussion so as to learn more. Your points are not irrelevant in this discussion i must say. They also make impact in my bible reasoning so i appreciate.

4kings:
So I must say I am enjoying this discussion unlike most of your other brothers in Christ here on nairaland.

Me too. Its been quite a good and enjoyable discussion for me. Cheers.

cckris:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus of Nazareth rules the world.

Op is telling you that the picture u see as that of Jesus is not Jesus. What is there to argue?

4kings:
I understand ur view of fate in relation to bad or good choices.
But in the third point u raised 'God creates us with the ability to choose'.
So how did he know for sure of the fate of Jacob and Esau, what if Jacob had chosen not to aspire for a kingdom but just to be a normal moral man or be bad, also what would have happened if Jeremiah had chosen not to be a prophet(jer1:5), what IF ur Jesus had chosen to keep quiet because of fear of death, what if Paul (Galatians1:15) had still chosen to persecute the Christians out of arrogance, what if moses (Genesis 15:13&14) accepted a title in egypt??
Let me just not go on.



BTW, when responding don't dwell on jesus's part.

If they had chosen not to do what God wanted them to do God would have sought for others. That's the point I was making when we started that God may want you to do something but you can choose not to do it. He doesn't impose.
Take the case of Moses, he had series of dialogue with God when God called him for the assignment. He presented some excuses to opt out but God used signs and words of encouragement to CONVINCE him.

Seun:
Pastor Adeboye's recent fatwa on "whoever introduces tribalism to RCCG", which is confusing because their list of leaders shows that tribalism has already been introduced to the church, reminded me of my concerns about the morality of the Ananias and Sapphira tale.

According to Acts 20:32 - Acts 5:11, "there were no needy persons among [the Christians]. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need." This was obviously not a sustainable way to do things because eventually, all the rich people in the church would have been reduced to poverty.

Anyway, "a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet" Now there's a lot to like about this couple. First, that they were willing to lose their property to help the needy in the church. Secondly, that they consulted with each other at every step of the way, and acted as one.

But this couple retained a sense of financial responsibility, so they decided to be keep some of the proceeds of the sale for themselves, to take care of their kids, etc. However, God (or someone who knew what happened), told Peter what they had done, and Peter shamed them before the church by revealing their secret. So they cried, repented, were forgiven, and brought the rest of the money to the apostles that evening.

Haha. Just kidding. Peter, the guy who denied Jesus three times and was forgiven, had them killed by the power of the Holy Spirit of God, who is love. First he killed Ananias, and somehow nobody told his wife about his death. Then he killed Sapphira for backing up her husband.

Imagine the sorrow of the parents who brought up Ananias and Sapphira and instilled in them the values that made them successful enough to own property and pious enough to embrace Christianity. Imagine the inconsolable wailing of their kids who would now have to rely on the charity of the same church that killed both of their parents, in order to survive. Consider the eternal burning in hell that awaited the couple.

How can anyone read this story and not be horrified by it? How can you open your mouth and say "God is love" after reading this chilling tale?

You have failed to face the truth that God can love and can hate. He can build and he can destroy.These things are clearly projected in the scripture. People should stop projecting God as one who cannot hate or harm anybody. Its wrong.
Again do you know what transpired between them as a church, the agreement they had before embarking on that practice of people bringing what they have? We cant tell. Some details are not given in biblical stories. If all the details were to be written, then the bible will be one large book that ten persons cannot carry. If put in volumes then you can imagine the number of volumes it will be.
Lets always bear this in mind when judging biblical stories and events.

4kings:
Predestination does not necessary mean that EVERY action has been programmed. But the fate of an individual has been foreordained, and no matter any action he takes, it will still lead to his fate.
Besides, how can a God(omini-potent/science) posses foreknowledge of the fate of every person he is about to create and then creating them, not charge with predestination. (Sorry for the grammatical blunder if any, but I hope u get my point)



N.B, i'm still waiting for your response to my other question.

Let me put my points this way-

1. The world was predestined to have good and evil operational in it. Its a battle field for good and evil. It is this battle between good and evil that makes our choices swing. Our choices swing because we are created to freely make choices. If we were created to be rigid then their wont be swinging between choices rather we will be a kind of one directional, choiceless entities.
2. The fate of our choices are predestined. We either suffer or enjoy based on the choices we made and not because of ourselves as individuals. For example if Anthony refuses to repent and goes to hell fire at the end of his life here, he went there because it is predestined that unrepentant sinners will end up in hell fire. He didnt go there because he is Anthony.
3. God creates us with the ability to choose. Taking a look into our future he foresees how we will make use of that ability. Remember that what influences our choices are what we meet/see/hear or experience(etc,) in life. Its not as if we make choices like a programmed robot. Most times we feel so good with the choice we have made and sometimes celebrate the outcome.
In the case of Eve she met with the deceiver, then looked at the forbidden fruit and found it appealing and decided to eat it. She simply succumbed to the evil force by her choice.
Sometimes too there could be divine intervention in our choices as a result of prayers made by us or by our loved ones on our behalf.

N.B. I am not ruling you out because i dont have monopoly of bible knowledge. I keep learning the bible- sometimes through discussions like this and through other ways. Still contribute more on where you think i didnt address properly.

4kings:
Nope, the parables of jesus is just an allegory used to make a point, in this case responsibility and discipline.
If u think that Jesus's parables were meant to be taken literally then a christian should pluck out his eye in order to avoid sin (just an example).

Besides Paul made the issue on purpose very clear, from the scriptures I gave u. He even said in 1corinthians 15:9&10 that though he persecuted Christians before his conversion, that still his success compared to the other Disciples
was because of his LABOUR (through gods grace), meaning if he was less hardworking he would have not made as much impact in the gospel as he did.
Are u insinuating that Paul committed heresy?




I am trying to establish a point, but ur views so far are not going in line with the real stories of the bible. I probably might not be getting ur point clearly, so please try to explain, especially for readers.

The point here i am trying to make here is that what was shared was not shared evenly/equally. Call it talent or responsibility or purpose or anything It was shared in various degrees. If we say because its a parable then we ignore the method of sharing then we are not being fair to the lessons of the parable. If the method of sharing wasnt important then it wouldnt have been mentioned. You and i know that this is true about life. We are not given the same level of talent/gifts. Someone can be gifted in various things while another will be in just one or two things. These are happening even in today's life which corroborates this parable.
The man with the five talents got higher than others and that supports what i said that some people are given higher purpose. Purpose as we are talking about here is not different from responsibility. Paul carried out more responsibility than the others.
The issue of being hardworking, as you mentioned, is also important because the people put their talent to work in order to gain more. They were also disciplined. Your points are valid too.

4kings:
@honourhim sorry for bombarding u with questions, but I want to talk a little bit on 'higher purpose' that u previously stated.

According to Paul's and Luke's view on this in romans 2 : 21 and acts 10 : 34 respectively, God does not show favouritism.
Also in 1corinthians 15 : 9 & 10, Paul indicates that his feat was based on his labour, though by god's guidance.

Also in 1corinthians 12 where gifts was talked about, there was no indication that it was inborn, but a phenomenon that is to be coveted and bestowed on those that believe.

Again Paul said in romans 12 : 3, that the *same* grace given to him, was given to all believers, *so that no one will think highly of himself*.

So please also explain what u mean by 'some men having higher purpose'.

The parable of the talents simply explains this. Some are given five, three, two talents respectively.

AbuTwins:
WHEN JESUS WAS ASKED ABOUT THE HOUR, HE SIMPLY REPLIED.....

MARK 13:32

New International Version
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


MATTHEW 24:36 (NIV)
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I THINK GOD SHOULD KNOW EVERYTHING....

Jesus is the son of God pls.

4kings:
Sorry again for pitching into ur convo with hardmirror.
But how do u differentiate an Omnipotent's foreknowledge with predestination.

In foreknowledge, he has fore seen how YOU will make use of the gifts/opportunities he has endowed you with and its resultant effect, Here you are the one that will make use of what you have.

Predestination means he programmed every of your actions.And to this i say NO. If our entire life are predestined then why the emphasis on prayer, repentance, why the offer to choose in the bible etc?

HardMirror:
So how is this not predestination

Ok your definition of predestination is- having foreknowledge about a future event

HardMirror:
Even before they were born God had already determined Jacob will be master over Esua.

How did God determine it? I ve asked you to show me other portions that shows it was God that determined it and i will agree with you. I am not rigid about my stand. I am not the type that is rigid on my biblical stand because i dont know it all.
Again you have failed to show me where God supported what Jacob and his mum did to Esau.

HardMirror:
It is visible to the blind that you are contradicting yourself and trying to defend God.

Why should i defend God? He is the creator and even if he predestines someone's life he has every right to deal with his creatures as he pleases. But you have to convince me in this case that he wasnt voicing his foreknowledge of how their life will run that he was actually making a decree upon them.

HardMirror:
. We have given you lots of examples on how God predestines.

And i have provided answers to the examples which you cannot fault.

HardMirror:
I rest my case here.

Thanks for your time man.

HardMirror:
As you keep twisting words to no effect

I am not twisting any word. Go and check up the difference between predestination and foreknowledge in your dictionary pls.

HardMirror:
What about the predestination of Jacob and Esua?

HardMirror:
Even Jacob was predestined to surplant Esua. How fair was that to Esua?
So I ask, if that's how god does his thinks, what's the point of preaching, or even creating humans? I don't believe in predestination and I don't believe in god either. None adds up

.

Jacob was not predestined to supplant Esau. God simply spoke his fore-knowledge of their lives that the elder shall serve the younger. Fore-knowlege is different from predestination. You are mixing the two. God has fore-knowledge of how our lives will run because he sees the end from the beginning but he doesnt remote control the whole thing. He blesses us with gifts/talents for us to make achievements in life but not that he will control you 100 percent for you to achieve it whether you like it or not. You are the one that will work with what he gave you. He may intervene at some points as the case may be.The devil also interferes. There is a place for his grace in life too i must mention.
It wasnt God that told Jacob to deceive Esau. Jacob and his mum simply chose to play a smart game on Esau. I have not seen where God applauded the game they played but i know that Jacob suffered the consequences of that deceit.
If you have other scriptural background to counter my points pls present. I'm open to such so that i can learn from it too. Learning is a continuous thing for me.

HardMirror:
I don't believe in predestination and I don't believe in god either. None adds up

.

Its your choice. I am not bothered about it because i know that if the future record of your life has it that you will meet what will make you repent at some point in your life, you will then repent but if not, then you will exit this world an atheist (too bad). I ve just done my part and what i ve written here may not be of any help to you but may be of help to some other person that will read it. Thats part of life.

4kings:
I'm quite enjoying this discussion.
Thanks for addressing the 1st and 3rd question.

Now back to the 2nd issue. Your explanation suffice when looking at it as a system of belief or growth of ideas that is bound to occur.
But my intention for posing the question is as regard to predestination(prophecy) that is obviously tied to an individual and not a group or system.
I'm talking about cases like the horsemen, woman of Babylon, and the beasts, and how their every action were spoken of, remember I started with Judas.

Yeah these are specific to an extent but then the name of the woman of babylon was not mentioned, likewise the beast, we dont have a specific picture about that. Thats my point. These are creatures specifically made to carry out the end time assignment as designed by God. Even the appearance of the woman of Babylon as described will show you its not mere human like us. They are not created in our likeness and do not function like us as you can see there so i do not see them fit into our discussion. However,i am not against your bringing it up.

4kings:
Meanwhile, explain scriptures like proverbs 20 : 24, proverbs 19 : 21, I can't remember some right now.

God intervenes in the affairs of man as it pleases him like in the case of job where He permitted satan to try Job. God never told satan the things he will do to Job and how he execute it. He only gave him a limit he should not exceed.


Are you implying thst these verses mean predestination? No bro. If thats what was meant there then there wouldnt have been need for king Solomon to write all that he wrote in proverbs and Ecclesiastes. If thats what he meant we wouldnt have been asked to pray in the scripture.
As christians we do pray for God to intervene in our lives and over challenges we are battling and God answers us. we ask him to guide our steps and he does. We are also aware that the enemy interferes in our live and we pray for God's help to overcome him and God does it for us.



N/B i will attend to your other post tomorrow when i am free. Make i sleep bro.

4kings:
You are always talking about purpose. Do u expect me to believe that God created the thousands of poor kids in Mozambique, Eritrea ..., for a purpose?

I have told you that God created all of us for a purpose and thats why he gave us gifts/talents. We are supposed to fulfill that purpose by using our gifts to serve humanity to the glory of God who gave the gifts to us.
I also told you that its not everybody that makes use of their gift or fulfill their purpose in life. Some people end up not making use of their gift and fulfilling their purpose in life.
Now the poor children you are talking about in Mozambique and Eriteria. They all are also blessed with gifts/talents and its only left for them to make use of it and fulfill their various purposes in life.
The Nigeria/Biafra war devastated the south east and rendered millions of them poor, sick and homeless then. Today when you come to the south east you wont believe that there was war there and many of those people who were part of that war and suffered its horrible effects are now living a very comfortable life some are very rich because people made use of their gifts.
You can agree with me that even in Nigeria in general, a lot of comfortable men and rich men today came from a very poor background but are rich today because they made good use of their gifts. You will also agree with me that most of our music stars, movies stars and other people who have excelled in various fields of life today in Nigeria came from a very poor background but made good use of their gifts to excel. So when you are talking about poor children in Mozambique pls bear in mind that there are poor children in various parts of the world who have risen to become either comfortable or rich or super rich in this world.
Hope you remember where our discuss started. You were driving at predestination of people and i was trying to draw a separation line about it but it seems you are now driving to a different thing again. I believe both of us are having good discussion and learning from one another but if it starts tilting towards unnecessary argument i will withdraw. As long as you keep it cool and focused, i am enjoying our discussion.

4kings:
You also want me to believe that your purposeful God spoke about the antichrist & co, and all what they shall do, and will still sit on his throne and expect anybody to assume those position at any time of this life, because there is bound to be bad decisions made?

Just as God said that in the last days that many believers will fall from the faith, today its happening and thats why people like me are not surprised when i see how people depart from the faith.
God said that iniquity shall abound in the end time, today we can see tremendous spread of iniquity in the world so i have no doubt that this one you mentioned will happen too but pls note that there are anti christs in the world already. Atheists are one of them. What you are talking about is the beast and the mark of the beast event.

4kings:
But though I agree with u that your God created some people with higher purpose, therefore we can conclude that others were created with lesser/evil purposes. Right?

Nope. You are misrepresenting me here. I said some peoples purposes are higher. Simply means - Paul achieved higher than the other apostles. IF you come to the music industry, some musicians achieve higher than the others. But they are all gifted. Same goes for other professions. Thats what i mean.

Hmmmm. I feel they will all turn against me if they found out. And i wouldn't want that

If you are my staff I will sack u. I don't have businesses with atheists.

Weah96:
I sense anger in your tone of voice. Is it because I exposed your faith charade for what it is?

You speak to the creator who sees everything. You know he's real. You know that he roasts criminals in a special fire eternally.

Why then do you commit sin? Do you just like to smell the aroma of your roasting corpse?

Do not be offended, I mean no offense. I'm just confused how humans like you can be so courageous and bold to defy a verified authority figure on camera.

This thread is about the behavior traits displayed by atheists on NL.

Well, who is an atheist? The fact that you dare to defy an omnipotent creator with whom you have spoken is a sign that you're either a mad person or you are telling lies about communicating with the creator. If you're telling lies then you too are atheist. You're just an atheist who has gotten comfortable with telling lies.

Human criminals fear the police with their limited scope of vision. Bank robbers cover their faces during heists to avoid detection by police.

Are you saying that you fear the police more than the supposed all seeing creator?

Obviously you are shamefully trying to redefine atheism so as to enlarge your number. Go and read the bible again and see what God talked about man,sin,repentance and God's,grace, mercy and forgiveness.

Stop fooling yourself here. If you want to be sincere in your judgment on us Christians then don't misrepresent the bible. For now you are just messing up yourself. When you are ready to talk bible then we take it up.

TomHagen:
Cheap response. What exactly did I confirm?

You ve admitted that you are a fool who wastes his time talking about who he "believes" does not exist.
You ve also confirmed that you must be here in order to battle the voice of your inner man that keeps telling you there is truly a God.
I can go on and on but I don't need to repeat the op.

You people are just deceiving yourselves.

Anas09:
Wow, Weah, you can try responding to the few concerns raised by the Ops, instead of Psychoanalizing Christians. It's not about us, it about Christ. Take your eyes away from us for a bit and focus on Christ. Your falsehoods stinks really.

He has no defence. The truth of OP's submission has hit him like a thunder bolt and here he is trying to play a diversionary tactics. True to what the op said about them.
Useless people.

TomHagen:
Na you get forum.? Even person wey get forum no dey complain. Wetin come be your headache?

You have just confirmed what the OP said about you people. Quite a SHAME on nairaland atheists.

TomHagen:
But you waste your time talking about fools and their foolishness. What does that make you?

Nope. I spend my time chasing fools away from coming to a forum where they don't belong to.