₦airaland Forum

Yemmyoo7:
please I need some enlightenment about a vow I made to God. From months back, I was very sick and in the process of praying to God I made a vow to God. The vow goes thus: I said and I quote ''If God can restore my health, help me out with my relationship issues and other things have been asking from him that I was going to help in cleaning his house whether at home, school or/and during Nysc
Now the thing is I have helped twice at home in cleaning God's house. The question is have I paid the vow since there was no time frame attached to it or I Will continue doing it forever? please am really worried as I need answers to to my question. This question goes out to my Christian and sisters. Note that I have been battling with anxiety for months now and I don't want anything that will contribute to it thats why am throwing this question out to you.Thanks to you all

When you made the vow what was in your mind? Is it clean it continuously or to just clean without any plan of continuous? God sees the heart.

johnadk21:
My friend joined a church two years ago,he wants to leave the church because the pastor would not allow him rest when he travels out of town for job hunt. He calls him always saying "when are u coming back" all because the pastor made him a group leader. Another reason is long service, they goto church by 9am and close by 3pm and after church they would want him to go for visiting. My friend is so frustrated. The pastor always want him to remain in the town where there is no graduate job available. He wants to leave the church but thinking how to do it. He is not in d town right now . should he text the pastor he is leaving the church?

What is hard there? We worship God and not church. Let him go and look for job anywhere and pray God to direct him. Wherever God gives him a job let him find a good church and start worshiping there. Very simple. That pastor is doing his job in the ministry and wants it to prosper thats why he keeps calling your friend. Not that he is interested in the welfare of your friend. You friend should go and find his own job. If the pastor is interested in the guys welfare he would support him in every good way to find something doing to earn a living. Be wise.

TheSixthSense:
Part 2: Road to Redemption

That I didn’t believe in God anymore didn’t make me a ‘moral' person, it wasn’t even like I was man of good ‘moral’ standing before I became an atheist but I would easily pass as one, probably from my appearance and the way I speak. But I was lonely - I’m still sort of a loner now but I certainly know the difference - an alcoholic - pretty normal in Nigeria now so we don’t see it as a problem, smoked heavily, had a heart filled with darkness but for the sake of anonymity I leave out the rest.

I also opened up to a lot of mystical beliefs, there had to be a bit of truth in everything other than christianity, Zodiac, psychic reading, law of attraction, New age positive thinking, and zen relaxation. Simply put, I was miles from being a good/nice guy, so becoming an atheist didn’t necessarily give me a pass to live as I please because I don’t think I had much of a conscience at that point-, it was for reasons I mentioned in part 1. But it actually created more room, and so I could clear out the remaining bit of conscience left, without premeditation, I would often argue against religion being the basis for morality like Richard Dawkins would, saying that morality isn’t from God/religion rather it’s by living by the ‘golden rule’ ‘do unto others what you would to yourself’

Anyway, my road to redemption started after I watched the movie 'The Conjuring’ not that I am a movie person but what sparked my interest was that it was based on a true story. So I got the book about the protagonists in the movie 'The Demonologist: The Extraordinary Career of Ed and Loraine Warren.’ It describes the preternatural the way it can be understood by non-religious people, because it isn’t a religious book in itself. It explains the phenomena from personal experiences as demonologists (study of spirits), and I found that they keep an occult museum where they display paraphernalia such as photos, recordings, and objects from every case, for exhibition. Some quotes from the book: ‘Some of the objects and amulets stored are so negatively ‘charged’ that just by holding one of the items it is possible to provoke the original spirit to manifest or cause possession to occur instantly’ ‘there is the long black spike a satanic witch used long ago to murder her newborn infant as a sacrifice to the devil' also skulls as chalices for drinking blood etc were being kept in the museum. Now, I didn’t need to go to the museum to find out if they were true or not, I was just utterly disgusted by even reading about them.

In fact, if you get to that point in the book, you would have gotten a vivid picture of the wickedness and darkness people get involved with. How people can in the convenience of their bedroom summon/invoke all the evil in the world by simple rituals or simply attract them in ignorance by their actions. So that when you hear a christian say God said ‘The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked’ you cannot help but agree in your unbelief.

Anyway, having read and seen all that, I realised I had no spirit in me and had being in denial all along, without even knowing. And oh how vulnerable I was to the whims of the wicked. It was obvious that living in denial does not disprove anything but rather keeps one uninformed - but I love being informed- and unprepared if/when one encounters the phenomenon being denied and in the case of these demonic spirits, vulnerable. But it also makes you reflect too, because it also explains how people invite these unclean spirits sometimes from seemingly benign habits.

Now, the book doesn’t tell you to accept Jesus or anything like that, it just advises to steer clear of Ouija boards, spell books, necromancers, and objects you don’t understand. But it affirmed the power of the name of Jesus Christ and God, prayer and religious objects as the only things that overcome the most evil of these inhuman spirits.

Excerpts: “...A particularly striking aspect to demoniacal phenomena is that the demonic spirit is actually moved to violence when exposed to religious articles, the recitation of prayers, or reference to God or Jesus Christ…the subject is not religious because I say it is or as I may want to believe, it is religious because that’s the only power that it - the demonic spirit - responds to. People might not believe in God but these spirits do…there is simply no secular - that is, no non-religious - explanation for these spirits' existence.”

Having realised my spiritlessness, even if I did, I certainly wasn’t using it at all. So, I wrote a simple sincere letter to God, funny but I did, asking for my spirit to be resurrected then I shoved it somewhere and forgot about it. I thought, just as conveniently as some people would summon spirits of darkness and control them to do what they want, seeking the more powerful God in your convenience would be better, plus I am sure He wouldn’t ask for blood rituals and the sorts. He is not like that

Now, I have read quite a number of books in my life, but for some reason I kept having a strong gut feeling, for the first time in decades, that it wasn’t a coincidence that I was reading the book at the time. So, I re-downloaded the bible app, I deleted when I became an atheist, on my phone - there has to be immense power in it, it isn’t all fairy tales. However, I didn’t know which book or chapter to open to. But for some reason Psalm 51 crossed my mind. And behold:

“Purge me with Hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me hear joy and gladness, that the bones You have broken may rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and uphold me by Your generous Spirit. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, then sinners would be converted to You. Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.”Ps 51:7-14

I read it over and over again. 'Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and uphold me by Your generous Spirit’ resonated so much in me. It was as if a different part of me had come alive. I could feel repentance in my spirit. I felt sorry. And in my heart I said Lord, I knew You as a child, what have I done with my life? what did I get involved in? And if there is anything to go by from the book I read is that I had opened portals from my actions. Oh! hide Your face from my sins and blot out my iniquities.

Then, I went on youtube and saw a video about a man, John Ramires I think, who was so deep in the occult that later got saved by Jesus Christ. You know youtube, so I watched a series of dead-people-coming-back-to-life videos, but one striking one was that of Ian McCormack (a former atheist who repented at the point of death) died went to heaven, saw the glory of Jesus, and returned to life in the morgue.

A common observation about these videos, is that while they may describe hell as a horrible place of eternal torment sorrow, fear and death, when they try describe the glory of Jesus Christ, they cry in awe for lack of words to describe the glory, joy, peace and love associated with it even after many years of their return to life. I don’t know about you, but when I see men especially ones who had perpetrated so much evil cry when trying to describe the glory of Jesus, you know that is no joke. Prior to this, I never knew a lot of people had died and returned (NDEs, you may call it) from many countries. If you doubt someone’s experience in Australia maybe you should try Nigeria. Atheists, muslims, pagans all tell of Jesus, hell and heaven. They are not all crazy I would believe.

So, I prayed with the CBN guys on Youtube, but I thought that wasn’t real enough, I need to have witnesses like in an actual altar call. So I prayed to God asking for a church to go to because the only ones I knew were one of those I earlier described. But at that point I would have gone to one of those anyway, as long as I can get to know Jesus. Then, the next day, on my way to the market to get stuff, I got handed a flyer. It was an invitation for a revival service, so I decided to go. I found it was a small church, hard to find even and in my utmost religiosity, I don’t think I would have found it.

Now, prior to this, I had been a lot of churches from catholic, anglican, methodist, lutheran, baptist, to numerous pentecostals because I had convinced myself that they were simply social gatherings anyway, by the way these ‘christians’ behave. But this one was different, from the moment I stepped in, I was more welcome than any other I had previously been in. But that wasn’t the highlight, it was the sermon. It was as direct as spear, it was a message for me and it was as if the preacher knew I was going be there. Also two verses from scripture I knew as a child kept coming to my mind John 8:32 ’Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free’ and John 8:36 ’So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.’ Then there was an altar call, it was my moment, and I answered.

** Note, I am not endorsing my church, saying that it is better than yours, maybe God led me there because of how suitable it would be for my spiritual growth. But I am only saying Jesus is calling those who want an experience with Him. I follow Jesus not my pastor or my church, but my pastor and church provide encouragement and there I listen to the word of God. I remember I always used to pray ‘Lord, I am not interested in religion, I just want to know You'

What do I have to lose if I die and find that there is no God?

Ridiculous, but let’s assume atheists are right for a second. I certainly wouldn't miss out on anything if I don’t drink, smoke, take drugs, become sexually immoral, worship idols, get oppressed or tormented by demons, get a divorce, live in bondage by anything under heaven, live in depression, live in fear, feel alone, look for love in people (Jesus is love, we have so much to share), live without peace or joy or love, live without bitterness, hate, anger or live without fortitude to persevere through trials and temptations for the rest of my life.

But what do you(non-believer) have to lose if I am right about God?

Yup, you guessed right.

The truth is heaven and hell are real and are for eternity - I would say, in a dimension not defined by time or space. Eternal life is one with Jesus and He is the source and giver of it. Like someone rightly mentioned, the things you actually think are enjoyment are actually killing you but you won’t know until God gives you His Spirit when you become born again and as soon as you start walking in the Spirit you will discern these things and probably do more than I am doing right now.

The bible says if you are not for Jesus you are against Him. And how would it feel to know you are not so different from the witch that killed her newborn, other than she probably knew she was anti-Christ, but you atheists and agnostics probably don’t know or refuse to know.

Remember, being in denial does not disprove anything, it only leaves you unprepared, uninformed, and even vulnerable to what is being denied…and no one denies death I would believe.

The answers you seek are on your smart phone. Look all over the internet, you won’t find evidence as theses or journal publications, but you certainly would find many many experiences. We have free will, so you have to choose.

Experience supersedes logic or argument any day. So, just before you dissect and critique my testimony. You may want to first ask yourself why you may be always so quick to rebut someone else’s experience before you ask the question.

Another thing, I have been an atheist, and to be honest, there’s nothing to it other than you look intelligent to other dissidents, but it is hollow, something missing, there is a void, you may not know now until you switch to the Lord’s side. Also, when you get faced with challenges and storms of life it is your spirit that fights, not your intelligence.

A UCB physics professor and former atheist, now in Christ because he saw hell and cried out to Jesus to save him, said there is a part of all of us that appeals to God. I’ve been there, I would have denied it then, but I know it’s true. Very true.

Please invite Jesus today with sincerity in heart. He is the Living God and He is Spirit. He is calling you, He is saying 'Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink and you will thirst no more.'
You may start by saying a sincere prayer like ‘Jesus I do not want to be condemned for eternity after I die, please save me’ and I believe your redemption is already on the way because He knows, like you would when you really mean it. And it is His will that you should not perish but come to repentance(2 Peter 3:9)

For those that do not see reason to continue the routine of religion or being religious and are looking for atheistic reasons to leave, Don’t! please don’t. Don’t give up on God. Did you know that it was the religious people that killed Jesus? although they knew all the letters and prophecies of the law and routines of the synagogue, they still didn’t recognise the Messiah, they even accused Him of working for the devil. It’s worse today, so many religious, but not many have experienced Jesus because they have made god for themselves, the one they can tame, the one that gives them all they want that lets them live how they like in the lusts of their flesh. Isn’t it funny how suddenly, God doesn’t have standards from our brand of christianity? The Holy and Righteous God.

But don’t be discouraged, look beyond the charade, He is calling, He says 'Seek and you will find'. Draw near to God and He will to you...(James 4:3) and your life will never remain the same. Taste and see that the Lord is good(Ps 34:.

Jesus is Lord!

There should be a Part 3: My Jesus Experience: The Difference

Great testimony. God bless and uphold you till we reach heaven. Amen.

Yeah go ahead with the part 3.

winner01:
Lol. The trend is changing my brother. The harvest is ripe. Praise be to God.

Yes o my brother. The gates of hell shall not prevail.

4kings:
True
But IRRELIGION is growing.

What is actually increasing is that people are now seeking for personal relationship with God rather than relating with him through a pastor. Christianity encourages personal relationship with God. Its just that some people hijacked it for merchandise. I pity the average african church goer who plays mumu to his pastor. Pastor asks a man to lie down, the man lies down with his suit. Pastor starts marching on top of him and you will see the mumu african church members clapping and shouting halleluyah, ride on pastor. Then the yeye church band will be beating their useless drum and playing their silly guitar and keyboard to back up the stupldity that pastor is displaying. People's eyes are beginning to open these days.

True. Its even declining in nairaland. i remember some yeas back here, threads of people declaring for atheism were springing up here frequently but today we have started seeing threads of people returning back to God. Even some other atheists who are posing as if they cant change their stand are just deceiving themselves. In their heart they truly know that their no-God stand is quite stupld but the shame of admitting it openly makes them to still pretend as if they are atheists.

JackBizzle:
2) A half truth is a lie. You lie by omitting a part that will change the story completely. The catholic church and all bible historians agree that there are scrolls, gospels and books left out of the scripture. Even the original biblical scriptures have been lost, what we see are copies of copies that are translated. How can you trust the bible when you know it is not complete?

It is not reading the whole bible that makes one a born again. One scriptural verse can be used to preach a simple sermon that will make thousands of people to be saved from their lives of sin. If God could make someone a born again without the person reading the entire bible then that will tell you that what matters most is not reading the entire bible but how much you made use of the one you read in being close to God.

JackBizzle:
3) What was God doing before Judaism and Christianity? It is without doubt that pagan and polytheistic religions existed long before christianity. What was Jehovah doing before he started telling man what to do? Why were other gods more popular than him?

Judaism and christianity are just man's way of categorizing his belief about God. Right from Adam God was communicating with men and raising them from one generation to the other to bring people to the knowledge of him. God didnt communicate with them under any religious name (Judaism and christianity) thats why it was as if God was in the cooler in those days. There could also be more reasons that historians may know better about this. Today, christianity has grown far beyond paganism.

JackBizzle:
4) Why does God love killing children to punish parents? God killed the first born of Egyptians for enslaving the Isrealites. God Killed David's son for disobedience. Why not just punish the parents?

Yeah as human we may feel somehow about the death of those kids but then, life belongs to God. He gives and takes it at will. Just as he never signs any agreement with us before creating us, he also is not under any obligation to ask for our permission before taking the life he gave us. The people that suffered the punishment and its pain more were those parents who faced the agony of losing their children. And by extension both the parents and the nation of Egypt lost whatever potentials that those kids would have brought to their families and to their country at large. Its obvious he wanted to give them that kind of punishment that they will live to regret. Those kids were not really the losers.

JackBizzle:
5) A kingdom divided against itself cannot prosper. God is not the author of confusion. So why is christianity so fragmented and divided with different bibles, dogmas and churches?

God is not divided. it is human views about God that is divided. Infact christianity hammers on our personal relationship with God, not our relationship with God as a group of people. God will judge us as individuals at the end of the day.

4kings:
Yes, and that's because rationality is only effective when there is information or observation of the subject.


We can guess the purpose of a person or an organization by the activities we've observed (because it can't be completely strange to us), how much more the purpose of a being(if it exist), that is totally foreign from all of humanity.


This still doesn't rule out the possibility of a Creator.
Even as a 3d designer, I need the "tool" of a render engine to make my idea come alive. So who is to say that evolution and other scientific findings are not the "tools" the Creator(if true) used to make the universe.


An allegory: A group of guys in the primeval era, just experienced rainfall, everyone is surprised as they can't comprehend what happened. So everyone comes up with different hypotheses based on the "Limited" information they have as to what caused the rainfall. We all know that their different hypotheses would be wrong because we are now more informed and their knowledge is still "Limited".
So like I said before, rationality is only effective when there is some form knowledge of the subject. We don't have any knowledge to prove or disprove the existence of a Creator, so Agnosticism or Deism would be very appropriate, not Absolute Atheism(or u would be equated to the primeval guys in the story [no offence!!]).


Consciousness and Intelligence we and all creatures have should serve as a rationale for the possibility of a Designer(whether alive or not) not a Mistake in Cosmos.

Seun I can agree with the rest of your points, but Absolute Atheism is arrogant and Agnosticism/Deism is only rational. - my opinion.

Excellently presented. Remain blessed.

mekkfreshboy:
My mind is often stimulated when I peruse through arguments and discussion threads by Atheist aimed against Theists for instance like the ones created by the founder of Nairaland Seun. As rational and plausible such arguments may sound I think the Atheists got it wrong in several ways on issues that has to do with the Divine/Supernatural. I follow the Jewish religion/tradition and while I may believe in a Divine and Eternal creator I still consider myself a bit of a rationalist. I believe that most of human problems are mechanistic and can be fixed by humans. My idea of G-d/God is on certain level different from those of the people around me ( I reside in Southern Nigeria). I am usually skeptical of paranormal activities (miracles) purported by prominent self acclaimed pastors/imams/priests in Nigeria.

There is religious and cultural diversity and systems of thinking in the world today. Atheism in itself is just one of those systems of thinking. There are countless Scientists who are Theists and some that are Atheist for example Albert Einstein, and we also have materialists who were Theist and non Theists. There are Atheists called Anarchist who reject any form of authority. Atheist does not amount to intellectualism and rationalism, I have come across some learned and brilliant Atheists and Theist but there are still countless ignorant Theist and non Theism out there.

I believe that the primary aim of religion or any system of thinking is to contribute in making the world a better place for man to live and co-exist peacefully in. Any Religion or system of thought that encourages violence, extortion, crime, moral decadence etc is fraud.

There is diversity in Atheism just like we have in religion. I believe in making the world a better place and I practice religious tolerance. I love humanity and I try to do what is right and decent, my philosophy is “ what is hateful to you do not do it others”.

I believe in Intelligent Design, that there exist a reality higher and greater than oneself. I have weighed the Atheist lack of believe in a Divine Creator and found certain flaws in it. They cannot logically prove to me the non-existence of a Divine creator.

I oppose religious extremism but my QUESTION remains “Is Atheism the way forward? How exactly can lack of belief in a Divine creator add meaning to your life and make the society a better place. What exactly do Nigerian Atheist believe in?

Atheists in the House should please enlighten me. Thanks

From what you described about yourself it is obvious that you are completely on a different platform from the atheists. I therefore advice you to avoid them like one willl avoid leprousy. While your ideology is to better humanity, theirs is unbelief in God. Even if humanity is in a deep shit and dont believe in God they will be happy for it. Seun's reply is a clear indication. As you can see, a lot of them are in support of his reply.

TheSixthSense:
This is my story. It is quite long but quite interesting. I hope to do in 2 parts. Please read

I was baptised, as a child, in an anglican church, had a couple of years as a pentecostal then as soon as I became a teenager, attending church became optional. I only went if I really had to, but there was no compulsion. Attendance waned to almost zero as time passed. But I didn't discard my belief in God, and if I had to pray I would in Jesus’ name. Besides, how could there not be a god? when you’re never too far away to hear spooky stories from boarding school students, villagers, and people with haunting experiences; and if you, by any chance, didn’t, there was always a Nigerian movie to bring it all to your living room.

Going further, with the amount of information accessible on the internet, I started having questions about christianity, especially about the type common in Nigeria, although I wasn’t really keen on seeking for answers. But, one thing was that I became increasingly irritated by preachers living in opulence, using bullet proof cars, body guards, and jets, like pop stars while they had many poor and struggling people in their congregation, especially when I found that most of these preachers owned virtually nothing when they had started.

Didn’t the european missionaries who brought christianity, free education, healthcare and the bible - the same one we use till this day - leave the comfort of their countries, homes and families risking persecution and death for what they believed? I thought. Certainly, this couldn’t be the same Jesus, these preachers and their followers become so excited talking about. The Jesus I knew as a child from my A&M hymn book was a friend to the poor, meek and lowly; and I doubted if He were physically present, He would be the one in Armani suits using the most sophisticated gadgets. He certainly wouldn't live and act like these preachers did.

For this reason, I preferred devout muslims - not that I ever considered becoming one but because they were principled, kind and generally nicer in my experience - to the christian counterparts.

As a young lad predisposed to politics, psychology, science, and real hip hop -‘real recognise real.' I became savvy with Google search for almost every question that crossed my mind - and being a thoughtful person, I usually had a lot about everything. So, in 2014, while following the Israeli-Hamas conflict on the news - you didn’t have to watch the news for long to know about it because there were only two issues at the time and the other was the missing MH-370 - seeing the killing of people, including children by air strikes - although the Israeli claimed that they always fired warning strikes to allow for evacuation before actual decimation of targets-. However, I vividly remember an interview of a doctor, after a bombing of a UN reserved hospital by the Israeli forces, absolutely furious at the damage and injuries inflicted by the strike and how he said “...this is a hospital for God’s sake.”

I felt so much empathy for the doctor and the injured, thus, a barrage of questions started coming into my mind. I wondered if this Israel is the same one talked about in the Bible, If God supports this country, regardless, because they are His people, and from a song, or bible knowledge as a child, we were told Saul killed thousands and David killed tens of thousands: I wondered if these people killed were real people, I wondered which tribe they would be if they still exist in present day; and having those images in my mind, I wondered how God could support the murder of thousands by David because he loved God and is described as ‘a man after God’s heart.’

So, I got curious, I started my search with ‘How many people did King David kill?’ coupled with other search leads, I came across a book “God’s killings in the Bible” by Steve Wells - it counts the number of people God killed directly, and indirectly as recorded in the Bible - and bought it. To cut the long story, I didn’t finish reading the book before I became entirely uninterested in christianity. I no longer wanted to be identified with this ‘God’ that kills and supports the killings of the innocent.

However, I didn’t become an atheist after that, not yet. I only didn't want to be identified as a christian or be associated with it. I also looked up arguments, watched videos and got books from some of the most vocal atheists like Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss. Highly intelligent scientists although they’ve become more known for atheism than science. And as a scientist myself, I was impressed by their knowledge and arguments, and it only made science more desirable and fascinating to me. I am one of them, I would like to think.
Something noteworthy is that the more you know about science, you almost know evolution isn’t even an argument, you would feel stupid if you argued for creation, as an undergraduate, maybe you would get a pass, but afterwards No, just no. In fact, having faith or being religious only limits what you can achieve in the sciences. Especially with the recent discovery of the Higgs boson, the ‘God particle’ described by a scientist as ‘another nail in the coffin of religion.'

Anyway, when I returned to Nigeria, I noticed the proliferation of churches in every space like a malignant tumour, with competing ubiquitous billboards of ‘this and that’ ministry with smiling faces of pastors and their wives at every junction. Also those of politicians saying ‘God has given me the divine mandate' 'God has blessed,' 'God has appointed,' 'Power is from God’ ‘the voice of the people is the voice of God’ even by the ones in the occult, that were prayed against the previous year had turned around to become favourites of the same people. Worse still, they even get more celebrated in these churches.

Another thing I noticed was that this ‘christianity' despised the poor, that my childhood Jesus loves. I could remember in my younger days, churches used to offer hope, especially to the poor and downtrodden, but not these ones, they not only oppress the poor but also persuade them to rejoice with their pastors in their greed - I’m sure they would call it inspiration/motivation for semantics. They would tell them that it is their fault they are not rich because 'poverty is a curse’ ‘Jesus was very rich on earth’ 'If Noah wasn’t rich how did he build the ark?’ ’No faith’ ‘salt of the earth’ ‘...everything would be added on you’ and these come from same people that ask their congregation for money for every project they can think about, even for their maintenance.

The same people who had nothing and depended (often depends) on the benevolence of members to start and maintain their churches would after some time miraculously have wealth and finance tips to share - always a triangle of ‘faith, sowing seeds, and tithing’ and trust they don’t tell those without curse-laden threats attached ‘You invoke curses on yourself if you don’t pay/give...’ ‘you rob God’ ‘You can never reap if you don’t sow’ ‘You will become poor if you don’t give to God’ and ‘You are joking with your future/life if you don’t give.’ Thus, creating a society of avarice and impatience in the hearts, even among people with no skill or and qualifications, little if any. 'Everybody wan hammer', even the ones that only know a few bible verses and every detail about their pastor’s rag to riches story.

I often asked, even if this was God - because these guys often didn’t go without their wonder works that were usually propagated by their members - is it moral for someone who always asks for, not borrow, money for everything s/he is about to do to live in ostentatious opulence, brazenly up in your face? I know every nigerian is familiar with the derogatory term ‘borrow-pose’ and that’s even for borrowing.

Witnessing all these, I got even more incensed, I would have to lose a lot of brain cells to join this madness. Isn’t this why we are regressive in our development as a people and as a nation? There had to be no god, if not, why hadn’t he struck these people like described in countless occasions in the bible. There has to be no god, even the politicians knew it and they use it as tools to garner support in spite of the evil and wickedness they inflict in our society. There is no god.

I couldn’t bear all the madness anymore, better to use my time for sleeping than pray to this god that doesn’t help anyone except these preachers. So I quit and became an atheist, but remained informed about my decision.

Then came the stigma, once you say 'I don’t believe in God’ it strikes fear in almost every christian in Nigeria. They don’t ask you why, they never even, they fear you more than a known murderer and thief. In fact, keep saying that and you would find you have no friends left. Some would invite you to church, most times they don’t even know why they are going themselves, can’t even articulate what they believe in, you ask even basic questions about their faith and they would be unable to answer, but they get very uncomfortable if you refuse to go to church with them. Convince me, and I would go but no, they won’t even try, they just want you to follow them like sheep.

One thing I can take away from Steve Wells book is that most christians haven’t read the whole Bible - although he thinks, like many atheists, that if they actually do they would become atheists themselves after they find out about all the violence, ‘immorality’ and prejudice that is never preached about in sermons.- In Nigeria, it’s even worse because we don’t read at all. Probably, why many times anything that a pastor says is ‘it is written' and final, just about anything.

Wowww...To God be the glory. I'm so happy to read this testimony. Anxiously waiting for the rest of the testimony. God bless you and welcome back to the fold.
Singing....
What mighty God we serve
what a mighty God we serve,,,Halleluyah
Heaven and earth adore him
Angels bow before him
what a mighty God we serve.

4kings:
Your reason 4 God allowing evil is so that no being would rub shoulders with him.
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I think i listed a number of things that we came to know and experience because of the presence of evil.

JackBizzle:
Nice attempt to answer the question.

But your answer still falls short- God did not need to create us

Nope. The question there is- whose need was the creator's first interest before he created us? To you the creator has no need of creating us but to Him there is need. To those of us who worship him there is need. So it depends what which side of the divide you are.
Its just like the animals having the perception that there was no need for them to be created considering the misery they face in the hands of human who slaughter them on daily basis. To the animals they dont see the need of their creation but to us human and to God there is need.

JackBizzle:
secondly he did not need to create the devil.

He created him as an angel. I ve already told you how he degenerated to being the devil.

JackBizzle:
What is the point in creating humans just so that they can live in misery?

Nope. Its not every human that is living in misery. As bad as you may think this world is many people still dont want to die(including the ones living in misery). You and i know that if an option to live in this world forever is thrown, a vast majority of people will grab it (including the people you think are living in misery). And like i said before, the level at which evil prevails in a society is dependent on the people. The blame of the level of evil should actually go to the people, not God.

JackBizzle:
Even without the devil mankind can still be evil <<< A very important point.

Not reallly. What led to Lucifer's fall was different from man's fall because man wasnt sharing the same glory, power and knowledge as Lucifer. Man wasnt also dwelling in heaven with God as Lucifer so man didnt know much about God as Lucifer. One of the things that the serpent used in deceiving Eve was that if they ate the fruit they will be like God. And that seemed to be the catcher for Eve. The devil stirred that thought of being like God in her and she grabbed it. So even if that thought of being like God was in man he wouldnt have made use of it to go against God like Lucifer did because he wasnt seeing God. He was just hearing his voice. He didnt know as much as Lucifer knew about God so it was someone who knew much more that could have caused him to fall.

.

JackBizzle:
1) God is good. God is perfect. But how then can you explain why he created such evil like the devil? Even the bible says that by their fruit, ye shall know them. How can a banana tree produce apples? How can a good God be capable of producing such evil like the devil?

Let me answer you one after the other as time permits me.


Yes God is good and perfect.
.
Everything that God allowed to happen is for a reason.
When there was no evil, Lucifer felt he was equal with God. And because failure was non existent and unknown to them some fellow angels had the same belief with Lucifer and of course God had to show them that they were not equals and that they were not infallible like God as they thought. That was how Lucifer became devil.

We are not programmed robots, we are created to learn and learning takes process just like our growth is not instantaneous but takes a process. Evil is one of our learning instruments.
The presence of evil and failure has made us to experience the redemption power of God, the power of God to protect, to provide to deliver us. It has also made us to experience God"s mercy, to know that God can be angry, that God can love and can hate, that God can forgive etc. Some of these attributes of God would have been unknown to us without the presence of evil. But God wants us to know them.
If there was no evil and faillibility at all, we would ve felt that we are equal with God but then God didn't create us (both human and angels) to be his equals or to rub shoulders with him. With the experience of Lucifer, the remaining angels in heaven must have learnt their lesson that their perfect state is solely powered by God. Also when we get to heaven and be perfected, nobody will tell us that our perfection is solely by God's grace.
The universe belongs to God. He runs it as it pleases him and there's nothing you can do than what you are doing now which of course has no effect on God.
Pls note that the rate at which evil prevails in a society is dependent on the people.

JackBizzle:
1) God is good. God is perfect. But how then can you explain why he created such evil like the devil? Even the bible says that by their fruit, ye shall know them. How can a banana tree produce apples? How can a good God be capable of producing such evil like the devil?




2) A half truth is a lie. You lie by omitting a part that will change the story completely. The catholic church and all bible historians agree that there are scrolls, gospels and books left out of the scripture. Even the original biblical scriptures have been lost, what we see are copies of copies that are translated. How can you trust the bible when you know it is not complete?





3) What was God doing before Judaism and Christianity? It is without doubt that pagan and polytheistic religions existed long before christianity. What was Jehovah doing before he started telling man what to do? Why were other gods more popular than him?





4) Why does God love killing children to punish parents? God killed the first born of Egyptians for enslaving the Isrealites. God Killed David's son for disobedience. Why not just punish the parents?




5) A kingdom divided against itself cannot prosper. God is not the author of confusion. So why is christianity so fragmented and divided with different bibles, dogmas and churches?







cc Kingebukasblog, kingebukanaija, winner01, hahn, dblackninja, sirwere, johnydon22, joseph1832, tufanja, reyginus, scholar8200, tempem, accidentalgenius.

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I will reply you later in the day when I'm free.

newbornmacho:
Hello
Are you saddened by denomination infested Christianity But fervently love the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you hope and pray for revival? Do you believe the present denominational arrangement vitiates the Christian experience, short-changes the Christian and sabotages the Christian message? Kindly drop your thoughts and insights here.
Shalom

Yea to a large extent I believe. But the scripture admonishes us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. The problem we have today is the abuse of the assembling by some church leaders. Ordinarily it is biblical for us to assemble.

donnffd:
No i ddnt...but your question is based on a faulty premise, "I was created"



No i ddnt, but then again 'Faulty premise'



I wasnt created...





!

Whatever you call it. The point remains that you didnt bring yourself here. It was by God's design so there is nothing like faulty premise. However if you want to debate on the issue of God and creation then you can do it on a separate thread with those who might be interested. My focus is on the title of this thread.

donnffd:
Yes it does, if truly there was a God and he did create us with free-will, then i wonder why you would even ask that question!, are you forced into loving something or is it compulsory you love something because its just compulsory?, Do you choice to love something and if you do, what were the reasons for you loving that thing?


!

Which freewill? How free do you think your so called freewill is? You are quoting what preachers told you. Get this clear now- the freedom you have is not absolute. There is no absolute freedom anywhere in the world. The choice is restricted to two- its either you are on God's side or you are on the devil's side. Not being on God's side means you are on the devil's side No middle ground. If God wanted man to have absolute freedom he wouldnt have restricted it to two sides. Again he wouldnt have attached any punishment for those who choose not to serve him. You are free to make your choice but you are not free to opt out of the consequences of your choice so your so called freewill has limits.

donnffd:
No, God can be anything he wants to be, it makes no difference to me, but if he wants my worship, he should be deserving of it...

And again i tell you that your position about God makes no change to his laid down rules- if you reject him it means you ve accepted the devil and the consequences attached to that decision.

donnffd:
Wrong Answer...
If the blacks in America during the Civil Rights Movement played by the rules, they would still be in segregation by now.
If our founding fathers played by the rules, Nigeria would still be a colony of Britain
If Europe allowed Germany played by their rules, all of Europe would have been enslaved, black and jews would have been killed in the millions.

Your ideology of play according to the rules in the face of tyranny is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself

Obviously you are looking at God as a human that people can team up to fight and make him change how he wants man to operate. If you have this belief in you then you should be ashamed of yourself that uptill now you have not been able to gang up against God in order to force him to wipe out death in this world. You ve not also been able to force him to make this world free of evil and perfect like heaven. Quite pathetic and shameful of you that you ve not been able to stand against God on this two issues i raised like America and Europe that you cited as example for me. I still maintain that there are things we dont have powers over and if you disagree with me simply prove your overwhelming power over God by forcing him to wipe out death and make the world a perfect place as heaven. At least start from there then we can proceed to other things.

donnffd:
Yes its not, Except if you dont, you would burn in Hell for all of Eternity...!

If not for your mischievous mind that wants to do anything and get away with it, why would somebody choose to live a life that will make him burn in hell when there is a better option of spending eternity in heaven? And if you think our resistance to hell fire can make God can make God wippe out hell fire, then our resistance to death should have made him wipe out death and evil a very long time ago

donnffd:
...what a loving God indeed!

God loves and can also hate. Its you and some of your preachers that have refused to accept this. When you read the bible from Genesis to Revelation you will clearly see that God did not pretend about his attributes. At some point he builds, at another he destroys. At one point he protects, at another he removes his protection. He does things as it pleases him and of course thats the primary reason he created us If God wanted to paint a picture of him as an all loving God who cannot harm anybody then the bible wouldnt have been written the way it is now.

Seun you said religious people are suffering yet majority of nairalanders who have made you what you are today are religious people. How hypocritical you sre.
In your hypocrisy you created religious section where we discuss God, and most importantly for you when we argue about our beliefs it generates more traffic for your platform.
You place negative religious news on your front page to generate traffic. How hypocritical you are.
You want to speak out against religion yet people buy your advert space for religious purposes.
You created a special section for muslims whom you also presented the evil their religion brings upon the nation. How hypocritical you are.

If you are sure you aint a hypocrite then

1. Remove the religious section.
2.Ban all form of religious discussion on religion here.
3.Stop selling advert space here to any form of religious activity
4.Put up a notice banning all religious people from being members here.

You know too well that the success you have recorded in your nairaland is not because you are an atheists
You know too well that if religious people refused to patronize your business you wouldnt have gone any far.


And to the mumu atheists here who will be carried away by what Seun is saying,
dont be deceived by his antics..
Seun has said it here that in times past he used to keep silence about his atheism but now that he has started speaking out. The truth about this is that in those days that Seun was keeping silence he was still no where in life and he was trying to climb up the success ladder so he kept silence about his atheistic belief so as to avoid offending people who will be of help to his success but now that he has achieved success he can now speak out.
Now you that is still trying to find your feet in life, go and join him to speak trash and see how far you can go in this country.

WARNING; For those of you who will speak out in the northern part of Nigeria,just prepare your mind that you may not live long to preach your message as some religious fanatics there will get you beheaded. You all heard the news of how a woman was mudered for preaching Christ, think of how your life will be when you preach against religion. If you are prepared to die for your cause then go ahead.

Finally, if religion will be silenced or wiped out it would have been done thousands of years ago but rather than that, it keeps growing tremendously. We keep witnessing atheists who dump their atheism to turn around and embrace God.

If Seun was condemning religious fanaticism/extremism then thats quite understandable. But to make a blanket condemnation of religion is a no no. He failed it

Ranchhoddas:
Great points. How would we know where to draw the line? What the OP and others do not realise is that a lot of people derive their morality from faith. A large number of people are good because of their hope in one afterlife or the other. Hardened criminals have ''discovered'' Christ or any other deity and become good. What the OP is advocating is going to lead to anarchy and chaos. No matter the amount of disdain you possess for religion, an unbiased analysis will lead you to the conclusion that its merits far outweigh the demerits.

For the first time i commend your reasoning here. You made sense.

Ranchhoddas:
You can't do without atheists can you? I know you did not read the article, because you'd have seen where he said that dead people do not go to heaven or hell. Just read the topic and type nonsense as usual.

We are not talking about heaven and hell here. The main issue here is that life does not end here. You people have always argued this with us and you ve always insisted that life ends here. The foolishness of atheism is gradually being exposed as the bible rightly called you people.

Atheists will still come here and display their stupldity that life ends here.

johnydon22:
As far as i know everything you know about any God is a human idea -

Thats your opinion and it doesnt stop God from being God neither does it stop him from being the creator of the universe.

johnydon22:
so reading this story and comparing the characters there in - this god character seem more evil prone than his supposed evil counter part.

There is nothing like being more evil than his evil counter part. God created lucifer the evil one.
Lucifer is able to operate evil in the world because God allowed him for reasons best known to him of which there is nothing you can do about it than to wail, yell, complain, deny and be angry as you are doing now.
The universe is not your property so face these bitter truths of life and stop clinging on irrelevancies that holds no water.

johnydon22:
So from this your post its obvious you hardly could defend that which you defined as a salvation plan - having been shown how bizarre, cruel, egositic, unjust and disturbing such idea is.

I ve shown you where it is clearly written that salvation is for whosoever will. I dont know why you are wailing and yelling. Nobody is forcing you. Use your will as you as you want and face the consequences or benefits at last depending on your choice.

johnydon22:
it's blackmail and abuse not salvation.

Since every iota of this concept is directly made known through human projection, it seems right to assert God is no more than a human projection.

sobif you are going to derive a concept of a god, at least come up with one that is a little bit better than the disturbing traits that human vulnerability confines them to.

All these wailing will not help you, neither will it stop God from being God and the creator of the universe.
Go ahead to wail, yell, abuse, deny and believe whatever you want and face the consequences or benefit at the end, depending on your choice. Thats how to be a man. Not by incessant wailing.

efismikoko:
Why should there be a test when the teacher knows those that will pass and those that will fail

Makes it bad when the teacher is the cause of the failure and success

The test is for us(human) to learn lessons from each other's experience and become better. Not necessarily for God. God knows the end from the beginning.

donnffd:
True, i agree

He very much would still be God, but if a God allows evil, then why worship him in the first place

What you will ask yourself is-

Did you create yourself?
Did you ask to be created?
Was your permission sought for before you were created?
what makes you think our opinion about whether God possesses the qualities to be worshiped or not matters?
Are we (the created) the ones that will set a benchmark that will determine who God(the creator) should be or not be?
There are things we dont have power over so the best thing is to play according to the rules put down since your opposition wont change anything.
Remember that the worship of God is not compulsory

johnydon22:
This sounds more like an unfair, unjust, disturbing and infantile criteria.

"Here is a story, a man born of a virgin woman died on the cross to die for your sins even though you don't exist yet"

then you are expected to either believe it [no matter how ridiculous it sounds] or burn forever..

Believe me i reward you, if you don't you burn - seems like a very severe ego issue.

More like GOD is offering salvation from his very own orchestrated wile?

Is it really salvation or just an example of forcful coercion to derive belief?

If the same person offering you salvation is same person going to hurt you in the first place, it's not salvation but rather abusive blackmail.

Makes one wonder "Did any God make such plan or is this just a genius plot of a few who wants you to believe what they want you to believe"

Have you asked yourself this- What if it is in God's eternal nature to create both what he likes and what he hates? Who defines what qualifies God to be God? is it we the created? So what makes you feel that if God is not all loving as you want him to be then he is not God? Since he allowed evil to come into the world then he is not God?

AmenRa1:
And why should I believe in Ur God when they are thousand of God that promised salvation too?? No the good question is why don't U believe in the other Gods??

Pls carry your distraction and get out of this thread. The Op is addressed to the Christians and thats why we are responding. Go and open the thread about your gods. Call the followers of the various gods to come and argue among themselves while you watch and decide. Or better still find out for yourself the true God thru any other means or you continue to wallow in your unbelief, Am not begging you.

HardMirror:
What is God's desire? That ALL men be saved. If god wants that so much why not make us all exist in heaven without coming to earth, why put us through the test?

God's desire is for you to make good use of that freedom(which he has given you) to CHOOSE in a world where evil and good are optional.

Again God has put those he wants to be directly in heaven there already. He wants you and me to pass through the earth process. Maybe some other being in some other universe are having there own experience. To us its a good experience here. We are partakers of the redemption power, God's mercy, his power to deliver, to heal, to save, to keep, to provide, to correct us when we arr etc. Beautiful experiences that we pass through on earth which the angels cannot understand fully its beauties.
The creator is displaying his creativity as it pleases him. That you dont appreciate his works doesnt mean that we dont. We do.

HardMirror:
This is information from a bible study website

Question: "Does Satan still have access to Heaven? Why does God allow Satan to enter Heaven, as recorded in the Bible?"

Answer: Satan was originally one of God's holy angels, but he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18). That was only the first stage of his judgment. Satan's kingdom was vanquished at the cross (John 12:31–32). Later, he will be bound in the abyss for one thousand years (Revelation 20:1–3) and then will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20:10).

Until his final judgment, Satan is "the prince of this world" (John 14:30), but it seems that he still has restricted access to the heavenly realms. In Job 1:6, Satan stands in the presence of God. There is a similar situation in 2 Chronicles 18:18–21 involving a "lying spirit."

Since God is holy and absolutely without sin (Isaiah 6:3), and since He will not even look on evil (Habakkuk 1:13), how can Satan be in heaven? The answer involves God's sovereign restraint of sin. In Job 1, Satan stood before God to give an account of himself. God initiated the meeting, led the proceedings, and remained in absolute control (verse 7). The result was that Satan's power was limited (verse 12) and God was glorified.

Here are some other facts to note: 1) Satan does not have open access to God's presence. He is summoned by God. 2) The visits are temporary. His time before God's throne is limited. 3) In no way is the purity of heaven tainted by the brief, God-ordained presence of a sinful being, "quarantined," as it were, by God's regulatory power. And, 4) Satan's access is only granted prior to the final judgment. After the judgment, God creates a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1), wipes away all tears from our eyes (verse 4), reveals the New Jerusalem (verse 10), and promises the complete absence of sin (verse 27).

When we say, "God cannot allow sin into heaven," we simply mean that God cannot allow human beings who are still in their sin to live in His presence. But it is possible for God to command a sinful being to stand (temporarily) in His presence in order to commission him (Isaiah 6), to exact an account from him (Job 1-2), or to judge him (Revelation 20:11–15) without compromising His holiness.

God's holiness will eventually consume all sin. Until that day, His holiness regulates sin, and that means that Satan, on certain occasions, is briefly summoned before his Creator to give an account of his actions.












Who should I believe? You or those who believe satan visits heaven literally?

Which bible study? Which heaven?

Why would God cast satan out of his abode an summon him back there again? So when God cast Adam and Eve out from the garden of Eden did he summon them back there again? His interaction with them was outside Eden.why should God's interaction with any being be restricted to heaven? i.e. If it doesnt take place in heaven God cannot interact again? God's presence cannot be restricted to heaven Abeg park one side.

HardMirror:
Lol
What is this one feeling like?
Dodging your question? What is there to dodge. Job 1:6 said they sons of god gathered before god, this was not in figurative terms at all. I am well familiar with christian desperation that makes you guys twist literal literature to suit what ever fancies you. And when it favours you again you would still say the sons of God gathered in heaven before God.

You are still blabbing here. Obviously you have no point.

HardMirror:
Ok ok let me compromise, let us assume satan was not actually before God but was there by means of prayers (as ur silly argument says), was satan not living in heaven all his life before he revolted? Does he not know how sweet heaven is? Yet he has no regrets about being condemned to hell. How about that?

Has satan been cast into hell? NO. Were you not the one who quoted where he told God that he is moving from one end of the earth to the other? His time of punishment is clearly stated in the bible but you are consumed by your foolishness to mock us. For now he is roaming everywhere leading men to evil and causing havoc on people as he did to Job. He is having his fun for now just like you until when the time of his everlasting torment will come. It is that torment that we are telling you to come to Jesus and be free from.

HardMirror:
God wants all men to be saved, he does not want anyone to perish. That's what the bible teaches.

John 3; 16 says.....that WHOSOEVER believeth in him WILL NOT PERISH.

Salvation is for WHOSOEVER embraces it.

HardMirror:
BUT it does not make sense that we have to pass through earth to determine our eternal abode. Why?
It only makes sense that we have to come to earth to make choices that would either take us to heaven or hell IF we actually had a life before this earth and we are all condemned sinners based on our lives before this earth and God is bringing us to this earth as a second chance to redeem ourselves.

Why will you choose to die a sinner and go to hell when there is a better choice of salvation? Doesnt that show how evil minded you are? Why will somebody see fire and desire to end in it when there is a way out?

HardMirror:
If you don't agree with this, then how dOes it make sense that God does not want people to perish yet he does not just create us directly in heaven without having to pass through earth were we make choices that would take us to hell?

Only deep thinkers would understand this

God is a creator and displaying his creativity everywere. In some worlds he created perfection. In our world he created imperfections that can be perfected. in another world he made no room for perfection. Thats the creator at work. That imperfection dwells in the earth does not mean that it is so in other realms or universe that God created. This is where you have found yourself and you have to work according to his guidelines concerning this place.

HardMirror:
Hehehehehe
You want to play the figurative card now. Lol
So he was visiting god figuratively in prayer abi? Lol

Again stop dodging my question. Did Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Jesus and others who spoke with God do that by going to heaven? You are just trying to cover your SHAME. You quoted bible and i used bible to expose your errors and shame yet you are still messing up.

HardMirror:
God was being visited, so where is the abode of god?
Earth?
Lol
You people are a confused set

Yet when we kneel down to pray we say we are in the presence of God. When we go to church we say we are in the presence of God.Do we go to heaven before saying that? When God spoke to Moses, Abraham, Elijah and Jesus did they come visiting him in Heaven? Why are you people evil minded?