₦airaland Forum

Peacefullove:
am now seeing your true color , keep it coming ! even Jesus will be proud of you , typical Nigerian Churchman. all sort of insult u are throwing doesn't move me , and I won't engage in that with you. no , am more than such level. sure!


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Dhut up. Click on my profile and see my previous chats with unbelievers and other people. You will see that you are the only one i have hit this way and that is because of your insincerity in discussions. Your foolishness rings to the high heavens. Ordinarily i wouldnt have gone further than my first reply to you but because of other readers who might want to be cleared of my point thats why i ve been replying you. i know i will soon stop. You are shamelessly insincere in discussions so shut up.

Peacefullove:
am now seeing your true color , keep it coming ! even Jesus will be proud of you , typical Nigerian Churchman. all sort of insult u are throwing doesn't move me , and I won't engage in that with you. no , am more than such level. sure!

back to the matter ,

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ .


" ALL " die in Adam , And ALL in Christ shall be made alive , according to this bible verse , contrary to honourhim ALL that die in Adam need Christ to be made alive .

how will Christ made them Alive , if they don't believe in him ? lol, probably your god has a master plan to preach to this dead folks know about Jesus , which he hasn't reveal to you yet

but you have proved that only those that lived as at when Jesus was in earth need Christ , not all that die in Adam.

Here you continue to wallow in your ignorance. The bolded below are the statements you made in your other posts-

1. "the christian bible made emphasize that all the descendant of Adam inherit an original sin and for that, they ALL need Jesus the second Adam" .
2. all those who inherit Adamic sin , need Jesus sacrifice ? YES or NO
3. emphasis on " Sin of the world " not just world , And all who inherit the adamic sin need Jesus ransom sacrifice , YES OR NO ?

Now the 1 corinthians 15 you quoted up there wasnt talking about them needing Jesus sacrifice for their sins as you have been saying rather its talking about the resurrection at the last day and its telling us that the resurrection of Christ from the dead is the power that will make the dead to resurrect on the last day. And the book of Daniel says that on that day some(the righteous) will resurrect to everlasting joy while the sinners will resurrect to their everlasting shame. Every dead human will resurrect (both the righteous and sinners) to face the judgment.Thats why 1 c0r. 15; 21-22 says this

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The book of revelation also said it that there will be the first resurrection which is for the righteous and the second resurrection which is for the sinners.

And it is clearly written in Revelation that during the judgment that whosoever was not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Now this book of life was the book that Moses asked God to remove his name from instead of wiping the children of Isreal away and God told him that he does not remove the name of a person from the book when the person is righteous. Has Jesus come that time? Moses followed God's atonement plan for their time and he was counted holy. Heaven is for holy people. Now God's atonement plan for us is Jesus and i have listed the benefit of Jesus atonement which you requested for but instead of you to challenge me on the benefits i listed you kept screaming like a mad man that the death of Jesus wasnt necessary. And you are twisting the bible to suit your stupildity.

There is no place where you quoted that said that the old testament people needed Jesus sacrifice for their adamic sin to be removed. SHAME ON YOU. They were already counted righteous before they died having atoned for their sins as God prescribed for them. your stupidlty did not allow you to rake it.I showed you biblical instances but In your usual insincerity and utter desperation to mock the bible at your own stupidlty you decided to twist it to your own meaning as you have done to all the biblical verses you quoted. You lack the sincerity to engage in this kind of discussion and your reasoning is too shallow and quite pathetic.

donnffd:
Noone can deny the vastness of the galaxy and universe as a whole. There are about One trillion planets in our galaxy alone and even if a small fraction has life, it would be in the millions, so it is safe to say it is inevitable to have intelligent life on some of these worlds.

With SETI(search for extraterrestrial intelligence) gaining more funds and better technology to scan the skies for intelligent signals.

I want to ask you guys, in the event we do discover an intelligent signal from an alien world!

- would these beings also be creatures of God?
- would they look like us hence like God?
- would they also need a saviour?
- would we see them in heaven after we die?
- would the sin that applies to us, also apply to them?
- would they be created from dust like we were?
- would jesus also go to that planet and die for their sins?

I am just curious...

I do not see anything wrong with your question.
Bible is written for us who are created in this world.
It is possible that there may be other universes with other kind of creatures in them whom God communicate with in their kind of way that may be different from ours.
They may be creatures programmed not to have choice but to act as they are programmed to act and in that case may not have anything like sin among them. No one knows yet.
Take for exampls the angels. They have wings and fly but we dont. They dont experience pain as we do here. Jesus didnt die for them. Also in heaven there are some creatures as described in the book of Revelation that are not in the form of human or angels, they have their own different kinds of images. God is a creator whose intelligent is unlimited so he can create as many things as he wants which we may not understand.
What is revealed to us in the bible are just what we(humans) need to know concerning our relationship with God. The bible does not contain all the information about God. And of course all the books in the world joined together will not be enough to write about God who is infinite.
Even the biblical stories are not written in details. For example, if the story of the life of Jesus on earth is written in its entirety then it will be contained in several volumes of books. Bible is just a collection of brief info, the ones that God wants us to make use of in relating with him. The rest information we should know about God will be exposed to us in our personal relationship with him. Thats why christianity encourages personal relationship with God. Bible is a platform that guides us in this personal discoveries.

Peacefullove:
Liar, ' the Lamb of God that takes away the Sin of the world ' John 1:29 , not just world .

But at least UV make us realize that Jesus is only the saviour of those born in his era not saviour of all men that are condemned sinners by the Bible Romans 5:12







every sane mind will see the contradiction in your statement,
Jesus didn't die for them ( old testament people ) but yet you still said the salvation of man is in PROCESSES and Jesus completed the work of the Salvation of man . u are a joke


I wonder if those guys are animals then , if they are not part of the " man" whom salvation Jesus completed .





Your questions lack sense so far it has been established in your bible that all men are sinners , From the same SOURCE Romans 5:12 and Jesus is the saviour sent into the world to be the atoning sacrifice for sins .

If Jesus is the atoning sacrifice , its logical that no man should be able to attain eternal life and heaven until he died for that sin that condemned all as sinners ?


but to show how useless his death is , the heaven and hell theory made it clear that once a man die. they have two destination's Heaven for the righteous and hell for sinners .

so David died and his soul go to heaven . which means he achieved eternal life /heaven, without SAVIOUR Jesus

which means Jesus is not the only way to heaven , no wonder the Muslim guys disagree with Christianity on the role of Jesus as the only way to heaven .


aftrall Jesus didn't die for Abraham and other old testament folk only for men of his era .

My question will not make sense to you because you are senseless. You know that answering it will nail you thats why you kept avoiding it but i will still post it below for you to answer it or bear the shame.


"and i ask again how does the word "believe" in this context apply to the dead? Can a dead man come to believe something going on in the physical? Can he believe something happening in the physical world while dead? So how then will people who were dead years before Christ came to be part of the 'whosever believeth in him that is written in this scripture?" (new testament)



If i invented something this year2016 and say its for the world to use does it mean that those who died right from Adam till now are part of those that will make use of it? Can we say that the first and second world war was fought by everybody in the world (including those who died right from Adam), since the word "world" is there? And if it doesnt mean that why are you bending the bible statement just to suit your stupldity?


And let me also add that the world cup is being played by the whole world including the dead right from Adam according to your idiotic reasoning. What a pathetic case you are.

Again you failed to show me where you said that it is written in the bible that all men right from Adam need Jesus to make heaven. You made that claim and said that it is written in the bible but uptill now you have failed to show me where it is written. What a waste you are to your generation. Go and learn how to engage in discussions and stop making a fool of yourself.When you engage in a discussion such as this, you must have to attend to every question posed to you in a sincere manner. You also have to produce whatever you claim is written. Show where it is written in the scripture or give a link to where it is written. Not when you are asked to show it you start running around like a mad cow trying to cover your stupidlty with anytthing avalable. You still have a long way to go in life with your shallow reasoning.

FearGodAndLive:
On a solid Rock that's not Jesus.

Obviously you have no grounds you are just making an empty claim. Nobody accepts empty claims.

FearGodAndLive:
A lie told for too long. There's no hell or heaven. You die like every other human being that has died since the world began.

Don't torment yourself with the superstitions of generations born before you.

On what grounds do you make your claims?

steveneche:
The idea of hell fire, to some extent, is becoming confusing as most people have reached the conclusion that the all loving God can not just watch his children perished in an unquenchable fire forever and ever.. While some are bent on the idea that the wicked must not go unpunished in the end of time... Men of God in the house, pls we need clarification on this topic, is hell real or another lie used by religion to keep their congregation....?

..

There is nothing like keeping congregation. Even churches that preach no hell still keep their congregation so its neither here nor there.

Pls know it that there is hell fire where unrepentant sinners will suffer forever and there is heaven where repentant sinners (righteous) will enjoy forever.
God is a God of love and a God of vengeance. .
He loves and he can hate..
He can build and he can destroy. These things are clearly written in the bible so don't be deceived by false preachers who wants to preach what you like to hear.

Peacefullove:
Lol keep somersaulting, what did u mean by the work of salvation of MAN ? who are the " MAN " , mankind in general as the word suggest ?


this is coming from someone who said Jesus died for only the men of his era , now claiming Jesus complete the work of salvation of Man

confuse folk


and before Jesus complete this work of salvation , where are the old testament folks like David ? in heaven ? they made heaven before the salvation of man was COMPLETED .

what an organized god u serve!



the bold caught my attention seriously , really ? Jesus didn't die for them but he completed the work of their Salvation right ?

this guy is a comedian




The blood of goats and sheep enable the old testament folks to make heaven ?


they don't need Jesus dying for them ?

you just prove Jesus death is baseless , useless and without purpose. it still serve the same purpose with the blood of sheep and goat

actually he didn't have to come and die , since humans can make heaven on their own without anybody dying for their sins , Infact the blood of animals is enough for that .


- why then is he called Messiah, or saviour , after all he is not the Saviour of the old testament folks


in honourhim voice " he didn't die for them o " , hahaha , they made heaven without any Saviour so ?


thanks that at least you just prove NOT every human need Jesus to make heaven as he claims , He is not the WAY .. he is not the LIFE for the old testament folks .

they don't achieve eternal life through him. he is not their mediator o boy

.
.
I ve already given detailed answers which your dumb brain failed to understand because you are bent on swimming in your Stupidlty. Only a fool will make the above claims you made after reading all my explanation. Only an idiotic brain will claim that any statement where the "world" is found is talking about those who died right from Adam..
My main objective of giving all the replies was for sane minds who will read and understand because i already doscovered your shallow reasoning from the beginning of my chat with you...
Now continue in your dumbness while i await any more questions from sane minds..
I asked you many questions repeatedly in this discussion and you couldn't answer any single one. SHAME ON YOU..
When your Stupidlty finally leaves you kindly go and answer all the questions i asked you which you have cunningly jumped or continue to bear the SHAME.

winner01:
I'm telling you, the Bible got it right in the most basic way. "Foolishness"

Yeah the bible got it so right.

Jadonjack:
It is stated within the bible and it is even part of the commandments that we, as humans, are not expected to do some certain things out of which is 'not to kill', not to serve any other god but him, etc.

According to the bible, apart from the people killed(by god) during the time of noahs ark, God kills over 10000 people. There was even a time he ordered 42 kids(children) to be mauled to death by 2bears(who cares what the little kids did)

Life belongs to God. It is his personal property and he gives and takes it as he wishes. Apart from the people that was mentioned in the bible, every life f everybody is taken by God today. Whether the person died by accident or sickness or through any other means. God is aware of it and has appointed death for us all. He did not prescribe how people should be dying so we cant say he took people's life contrary to his prescribed way of taking life. Bros we no get say for this o.

Jadonjack:
Romans 6:23 says 'For the wages of sin is DEATH.....' While 1john 1:9 says 'if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.....'
However, DEATH(punishment for sin) still exists, I guess forgiveness hasn't been forgiven yet!
!

The death that the bible meant here isnt the physical death. It is the spiritual death. When you sin, your spirit man is separated from God and since God is the source of your spiritual life, the spirit man is rendered useless as dead because of the lost in connection with God.
Remember that one of the reasons that God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden was so that they wil not eat of the tree of life and become deathless like him. This simply shows that Adam and Eve were not originally created to live a deathless life if not, they would ve eaten the fruit of the tree of life far when they had not sinned.

Jadonjack:
Now, based on the aphorism, "A leader should lead by example", isn't God hypocritical?, how does he expect us to keep a commandment even HE(omnipotent) can't or won't keep?!!!
Just curious anyway!!!

God is not a leader per say as you have in the world. He is more of a boss. He is a creator and he has given us laws that will be operational in the universe for us. He doesnt dwell in this universe and is not under the law he made for us. In the universe where he dwells, there are also principles guiding events there.Comparing him with us is not ideal because we are not near him in anyway.

winner01:
You are welcome. I'm more concerned about how atheism would affect NEPA
Do these people just say anything they want

Ahhh...bro, lets wait na for Fashola to become an atheists then you ll see how Nigeria will start enjoying uninterupted power supply over night.

Maybe Dora Akunyili was an atheists when she did wonders in NAFDAC. Atheism; the hope of the common man fool

Ranchhoddas:
You are a very judgemental person. You know nothing about me and you are already telling me I want to appear intelligent. I never still know wetin I collect for your hand for this Nairaland.

You collect dollar for my hand at 150 naira instead of the current 360 naira
Ok o. forgive me if i appear judgmental but i just spoke what i observed.

Ranchhoddas:
I am sure you failed those lessons. I am not an atheist.

you are not an atheist but it appears you are afraid of engaging atheists. A few times i have seen you engage them you nailed them totally and this makes me to wonder why you are afraid of them and like pretending to be one of them since you have so much to nail them. May be because you want to appear 'intelligent' as they deceive themselves that they are.

Berra stand out man.

Seun and Lalastic biko catapult this highly information thread to the front door, i mean the chief page that the world may see the magical change that atheism will have on humanity once we drop religion.

Chai wetin we dey do since na? we for enter this atheism since make naija change over night to America.

Biko Op thank you very many for this educationist.

Peacefullove:
Calm down, don't give yourself high blood pressure because I can see you replied with anger . lol u have only succeeded in telling that the concept of original sin made no sense



[/b]

TRASH

Peacefullove:
REPLY:



" Sin of the World " John 1:29 , what is this sin ? and are this old testament folks part of those who inherit this sin ?


So far they also inherit it , then it applies to them
since Jesus is the so called saviour of the world , the WAY .

[/b]

We inherited the adamic nature. The nature that yields to sin. And since Adam human has been committing sin till now so I dont understand what else you are driving at differently. Those in the old testament sinned and God made provision for atonement for them which was called sin offering. See a few verses here-

Exodus 29;14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.

Exodus 30;10
10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the Lord.

Leviticus 4;20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.


Since the time of old testament God has been forgiving sin and Jesus said it clearly that he and God his father are one(united). They work hand in hand towards the same purpose.

Here is a prayer of David who lived in the old testament too-

Psalm 51;1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

God forgives sin. God and Jesus are one. It was God that sent Jesus to come and complete the work of salvation by making it easy for us so that we wont need to sacrifice animals again for atonement and forgiveness. The work of salvation of man took processes which was completed when Jesus came.

The sin of the world as stated in the book of John that you quoted does not include the sin of those who died before Jesus came because those who atoned as God prescribed for them had been forgiven. It does not also mean the sin of everybody in the world now. It simply means the sins of "whosoever believeth in him"

Peacefullove:
in other words , Jesus didn't die for the sin of Abel, Isaac, Enoch , Joshua , Samson whom are also sons of the Genesis Adam ?





[/b]

Jesus didnt die for them o this boy. John 3;16 was talking of those who are living from when Jesus cames till when he will come again and thats why the phrase "whosever believeth in him" is there. The dead cannot believe what is happening while they are dead. Its the simple truth which you have foolishly pretended not to understand.

Peacefullove:
all those who inherit Adamic sin , need Jesus sacrifice ? YES or NO



emphasis on " Sin of the world " not just world , And all who inherit the adamic sin need Jesus ransom sacrifice , YES OR NO ?


probably the blood of goats and sheep were able to give Abel a space in heaven when he died, only for some bible writers to later say the blood of goats and sheep can't wash away sin,

" For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. " Hebrew 10 vs 4



[/b]

You failed to show me the biblical portion that you said that the bolded statement was made. Pls show me lets look at it together.

And of course the purpose of the sacrifice of the old testament wasnt for the blood of animals to take away their sins rather it was to plead with God to forgive them their sins and he did each time they sacrificed sin offering. It is only the blood of Jesus that can take away sins because Jesus and God are one. Here is what Hebrews 9 says-

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And like i said before- the statement that Christ takes away the sins of the world doesnt also mean that he takes away everybody's sins. Its only the sins of "whosoever believeth in him" that he takes away so stop confusing yourself.
Read what Hebrew 9 says-
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you have sense you can understand this but if you dont then you can continue in your senselessness for all i care.

Peacefullove:

that means many old testament folks don't need Jesus to make heaven , wow for them , Jesus is not THE WAY , he is not the LIFE , blood of goats and sheep gives them the needed life . wow

TRASH. I VE ALREADY ANSWERED YOU SO YOU CAN MAKE SILLY CONCLUSIONS AS YOU LIKE.


God and Jesus are one(united) and everything about the redemption of man goes according to the plan of God which Jesus Christ is part of so i dont get your blabbing+. The old testament people would have believe Jesus if they saw him. The fact that they obeyed the atonement plan that God made for them shows they would have also believed the sacrifice of Jesus. The atonement of those days were a pointer to what Jesus was coming to do. It was a shadow of things to come and the redemption at the cross was the thing. God runs the universe as he pleases. When Jesus came he spoke words to us, he wasnt speaking to Adam and the people that were already dead. If you check the statements of Jesus about salvation and about spreading the gospel it was mostly in present tense and future tense. hardly past tense. Keep messing yourself up.

Peacefullove:
REPLY:




I can see you deliberately cut out John 1:29 part of my post , I catch ya ! You know that bible verse has finish you already .


John 1:29 Jesus takes away the sin of the world ! Are this so called old testament people part of this world that inherit the sin ? Answer that first, and you will know if the believe aspect apply to them or not !

Your foolishness rings to the high heaven.So any sentence that is made with the word "world" means that the dead and the living are partakers of it? If i invented something this year and say its for the world to use does it mean that those who died right from Adam till now are part of those that will make use of it? Can we say that the first and second world war was fought by everybody in the world (including those who died right from Adam, since the word "world" is there? And if it doesnt mean that why are you bending the bible statement just to suit your stupldity?

Peacefullove:
REPLY:





Romans 5 verse 12

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned "

Now this statement is different from what you said. I never said that all have not sinned. Below was what you said which is different from the bible portion you quoted.
"the christian bible made emphasize that all the descendant of Adam inherit an original sin and for that, they ALL need Jesus the second Adam" .

Peacefullove:
REPLY:






John 3:16 God loves the WORLD

John 1:29 Jesus takes away the sin of the WORLD

So how can the dead ones put faith in Jesus sacrifice ? Or they don't need it since they are already in heaven without Jesus sacrifice sef ?

Or Jesus died for not the world but only people of his era

Was this not the question i asked you when you were trying to twist the bible statement. And i told you that since the dead cannot believe what is going on in the physical that the word "world" in those bible portions wasnt talking about those who died since Adam but your foolishness did not allow you to understand my point. I earlier told you that God made provision for atonement for sin for those who lived before Jesus came.

And let me also make it clear to you that salvation, which is the benefit of the death and resurrection of Jesus is strictly for "whosoever believeth "
If you like continue giving the word "world" in those biblical statements twisted meanings.

Peacefullove:
REPLY:


I cancelled that new testament cos its a term coined by you people not By bible itself . its funny how you guys break bible into two versions and still claim all scripture is inspired of God.

See how foolish you are. You want to judge us with the bible and you are cancelling what you dont like and accepting what you like in the same bible. If you want to judge us with the bible be sincere enough to carry see it as written. We dont need your stupld cancellation of what you dont like,Old testament and new testament is simply timeline. I mean everything in the bible did not happen in one day or one year or even one century except your stupldity is telling you ao. What i was driving at when i mentioned new testament was that several years have passed between the creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus and many people had died within these years, and i was asking you how a statement made about the world believing Jesus should include those who died several years before he came. You silly brain refused to get my point.

Peacefullove:
REPLY:


Let me remind you that when Jesus come to die is not important here , because all evidences present him has the one who will liberate mankind from sin. That bible claim is the basis of this discussion not when he was born!

Unless u are telling me Jesus didn't die for the world of john 1:29 , only those born in his era

When Jesus came to die is not important? It is your brain that have refused to understand a statement made in the bible.you keep describing the world in those statements as comprising both the dead and the living. Thats why i didnt need to say anything about John 1;29 because its the same world as mentioned in John 3; 16. When you answer the questions i asked you yesterday then you will understand the two biblical portions you quoted in the book of John.'I repeat the question for you again below-

"and i ask again how does the word "believe" in this context apply to the dead? Can a dead man come to believe something going on in the physical? Can he believe something happening in the physical world while dead? So how then will people who were dead years before Christ came to be part of the 'whosever believeth in him that is written in this scripture?" (new testament)

The statement is John 3;16 does not mean those who died before Christ came. If those who died since Adam were involved, the phrase-"whosoever believeth in him" wouldnt have been there. Again God wouldnt have needed to make earlier provision for those who lived and died before Christ came if the statement included them. What the bible said is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The bible also told that before the death of Christ people lived under the law but now we live in the time of grace. And of course the difference is clear. Does people die as soon as they commit sin as it used to be in the old testament? NO. Thats because of grace.

Also combine it with the question i asked in my earlier response to this post. Let me repeat the question below-


If i invented something this year2016 and say its for the world to use does it mean that those who died right from Adam till now are part of those that will make use of it? Can we say that the first and second world war was fought by everybody in the world (including those who died right from Adam), since the word "world" is there? And if it doesnt mean that why are you bending the bible statement just to suit your stupldity?

Peacefullove:
The BLUE is a very good question, and I will answer you



John 3:16 says God love THE WORLD . the world here isn't just some people in the new testament,

KINDLY READ WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN HERE WITH A SANE MIND THIS TIME AROUND AND SEE HOW SHAMEFUL AND PATHETIC YOU SOUND.

You have failed to tell me how the word "believe" should be applicable to people who were dead years ago before Jesus came so as to show that the meaning you are attaching to this is correct. You dont just cook up any meaning that suits your crooked mind and flash it before me.. Is this shallow reasoning of yours part of what atheists call intelligent reasoning?. Quite a shame on how insincerity has eaten deep inside you.

Peacefullove:
the christian bible made emphasize that all the descendant of Adam inherit an original sin and for that, they ALL need Jesus the second Adam .

Pls show where this is written in the bible so that we can take a look at it together.

Peacefullove:
, now are u saying those who died in times past don't need Jesus dying for them ? Are u saying they ain't part of those who inherit the so called original Sin ? Or when it said Jesus die , it isn't for all the sons of the Genesis Adam ?

I will answer you this when you answer the question i asked you in the last post. I paste it again below for you. Kindly answer so that we can proceed or you bear the shame of your insincerity. you tactfully dodged the question and jumped to the last among them to continue with your insincerity. Here is it-


"and i ask again how does the word "believe" in this context apply to the dead? Can a dead man come to believe something going on in the physical? Can he believe something happening in the physical world while dead? So how then will people who were dead years before Christ came be part of the 'whosever believeth in him that is written in this scripture?"(new testament)

I also asked you when did Jesus come to die? Old or new testament? Answer or bear the Shame of your insincerity.

tempem:
Lol.. You should be gentle and calm when doing things..
Especially when bringing out your opinion.
Detest from using foul languages.

Am not going further though, I wanted to prove something wrong in your earlier post, and I did.


You said this:
You just mentioned the *stars*
FYI the *moon* is also included.

Next time, don't say the bible never said anything about the universe!!
Just be humble.

Thanks.

The guy is a mumu.

Peacefullove:
What am driving at is revealing how the heaven/hell theory expose the teaching that Jesus is the grand plan of Salvation as an hoax.



Read the underlined, God love the world. The world here refer to every single human that has ever lived on this planet. That's why they say Jesus takes away the sin of the World . so therefore, its necessary to examine his death in relation to those who lived in the past because they also constitute the world

Why are you trying so hard to twist the meaning of this simple statement? Let me make it clearer for you.

For God so love the world- Yes he does.

That he gave his only begotten son- And i ask when did he send the son? In the old testament or in the new testament?

That whosoever believeth in him- and i ask again how does the word "believe" in this context apply to the dead? Can a dead man come to believe something going on in the physical? Can he believe something happening in the physical world while dead? So how then will people who were dead years before Christ came be part of the 'whosever believeth in him" that is written in this scripture?

How does this statement and its meaning resemble the meaning you are trying to give it? You are just trying to twist the meaning of the statement to suit your mockery whereas you are actually making a mockery of yourself.

Peacefullove:
REPLY :



Okay, David and other considered righteous make heaven when they died with the blood of goats and sheep's ?



Don't derail, here is what u quote

"
Peacefullove:

but from the earlier examples given base on the heaven and hell theory, hasn't the world been making heaven and having eternal life without Jesus dying for their sins ? Its either Jesus is a liar"

As u can see, the factor in consideration here is considering that David and other righteous ones die and go to heaven , hasn't the world been making heaven and having eternal life without Jesus ?



Calm down man , who talks about the teachings of Jesus ?

The point is what exactly is the purpose of Jesus death and claiming to die for the whole world if people like David, Isaac died and go to heaven when they died without Jesus dying for their sins ?



Whichever way, u can't escape it!


Supposing he didn't repent, if he died as a sinner, he go to hellfire ! How can Jesus claim to save the whole world , if people like Cain are already in hell ?

Assuming he repents, he died and go to Heaven having eternal life , ! Then how Can Jesus claim to be the saviour of Cain and the world , if he go to heaven without Jesus even dying for his sins ? That means Cain make heaven without God giving his only begotten son , u agree ?



You don't mean it , they were able to die and make heaven/eternal life with the blood of goats and sheep used for atonement ?

You are just confusing yourself. I am actually replying you for the sake of some innocent minds who may be reading and may not reply you again after this if you continue showing your mischievous approach to the discussion.

I told you that the death of Jesus had impact on some of those people who died in the old testament yet you are still pretending as if you didnt see it. When Jesus died he went and set the spirits of some of the dead free. Thats part of the things that happened within that 3 days before his resurrection.

I also told you that the teachings of Jesus was for those who were alive then and still you are asking me who talks about the teachings of Jesus. So why are you mentioning Jesus in this conversation if you aint talking about his teachings? So what are you driving at?

You mentioned John 3;16. let me quote that portion for you- "for God so loved the world that he gave his only beggotten son, that whosever believeth in him will not perish but have everlasting life".
Now pls tell me, this statement was made in the new testament, does it look like something referring to those who were already dead and buried long time ago before it was made? Does this english spoken here resemble a statement referring to the generations gone before the coming of Jesus? Was this place telling those who died to believe Jesus?

I also told you that in the past sacrifice of animals were used to atone for sins. Kind of used to plead with God. There were also other reasons that people made burnt sacrfices/offerings in the old testament. Sometimes its done for thanksgiving, for other supplication to God and you are here telling me about blood of goat and sheep. Is it only blood that they lay on the altar for the burnt sacrifice? Then i said that because those sacrifice for sin were not worthy enough more than Jesus, thats why it was important that Jesus came to be sacrificed once and for all. Instead of people sacrificing animals each time they sinned, the death of Jesus became a one off sacrifice. God created the animals, God requested that it be used as sacrifice pending the coming of Christ so whats your own about it? Will you dictate to God how he will run his affairs? I dont get what you are blabbing about.

I ve outlined some of the benefits of the coming of Jesus to mankind and you are still asking me whats the point of his coming. Its obvious you are not reasoning over my points, you are just interested in blabbing.

If you go through my profile you will see that i attend to people's questions when they ask me but it appears you lack some level of sincerity and i may not reply you again if you continue to show such insincerity.

TheSixthSense:
@lalasticlala can this make the front page? mynd44

.

Supported. This should go to front page pls.

Peacefullove:
Peacefullove:
Nice thread. But as the Op said only the deep thinkers can understand.

The Hell and Heaven theory doesn't make sense and in fact it makes Jesus himself appear as a Lie and Fraud . I will explain this from the fundamental christian perspective.

∆ HEAVEN /HELL

Cain killed Abel, he dies and go to (Heaven/Eternal life)

David die and go to ( Heaven/Eternal life )



let me stop there : years after , Jesus came and said God love THE WORLD and gave his only beggoten son that if u believe in him you will have eternal life ( heaven )

Before Jesus came God already made provisions for the forgiveness of sins for the old testament generation. The death of Jesus put a stop on the sacrifice of animals for atonement which was obtainable then. The atonement of Christ replaced it once and for all and made it possible that you dont need to sacrifice an animal again to atone for your sins..You dont need to go to a priest before your sins are forgiven. You dont even need to be in church before you receive forgiveness. Just pray to God anywhere you are and he saves you from your life of sin. The sacrifiice of Jesus made our access to God very easy. Before Christ came people accessed God only through the priests but now just stay anywhere and pray to God and he hears you. The coming of Christ removed a lot of religious protocols involved in the worship of God in the old testament because he is the highest sacrifice. No other sacrifice can be better and higher than him. You have read it in the bible but wants to pretend you dont know this.

Peacefullove:
but from the earlier examples given base on the heaven and hell theory, hasn't the world been making heaven and having eternal life without Jesus ? Its either Jesus is a liar

Pls where in the bible did Jesus say that those who died before he came are doomed? Even the John 3;16 you quoted did not condemn those who died before Jesus came.

Peacefullove:
Its either Jesus is a liar , his death has no puprpose here or the heaven/hell theory is false aftrall Abel and David plus Daniel have eternal life without God giving his only begotten son cheesy

I have already explained what surrounds the death and resurrection of Christ and the old testament practice. Christ came to complement the process that started in the old testament. I have listed some of the benefit's of Christ's coming so i dont need to repeat it again. The teachings of Christ in the bible was for the people living at that time and those of us who were yet to be born at that time. It wasnt for those who were already dead then biko

Peacefullove:
~~~~~~~~~~~

Talk about Hell.

Cain die and go to hell .

You took him to hell? How did you know that he didnt repent after God punished him?

Peacefullove:
Now, Cain and some Israelite kings are already in hellfire , how then can Jesus claim to save the whole world since Millions are already in hellfire ?

I have already told you how atonement for sin was done in the olden days so your claim here has no grounds.
Again the 3 days that Jesus spent in the grave have some positive implication on some of the old testament people. You read this in the bible and failed to acknowledge it just because you want to condemn Christianity.

Peacefullove:
Peacefullove:
Nice thread. But as the Op said only the deep thinkers can understand.

The Hell and Heaven theory doesn't make sense and in fact it makes Jesus himself appear as a Lie and Fraud . I will explain this from the fundamental christian perspective.

∆ HEAVEN /HELL

Cain killed Abel, he dies and go to (Heaven/Eternal life)

David die and go to ( Heaven/Eternal life )



let me stop there : years after , Jesus came and said God love THE WORLD and gave his only beggoten son that if u believe in him you will have eternal life ( heaven )

but from the earlier examples given base on the heaven and hell theory, hasn't the world been making heaven and having eternal life without Jesus ? Its either Jesus is a liar , his death has no puprpose here or the heaven/hell theory is false aftrall Abel and David plus Daniel have eternal life without God giving his only begotten son cheesy



~~~~~~~~~~~

Talk about Hell.

Cain die and go to hell .

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the grand plan of salvation of the whole WORLD. Now, Cain and some Israelite kings are already in hellfire , how then can Jesus claim to save the whole world since Millions are already in hellfire ?

Let me help you out to answer.

Peacefullove:
Like I said earlier, your mentality of there is nothing you can do about it that is- something there is no even evidence exist, is the reason you disregard Every sane point as useless argument, now from a fundamental christian perspective , assuming it exist , can u address this then :

Now this is the kind of laziness that pushed you into atheism. I ve told you that the issues you raised here have been addressed in other threads. What you should simply do will be to search for those threads. Why are you too lazy to do that? I dont have such time to be answering questions that has been answered here before. Its when i'm less busy that i spend time to answer questions but for now no time. Now go and do your research.

Peacefullove:
Probably u didn't see this in your bible 'The Almighty doesnt act wickedly or unjustly ' this specify he won't act in a way that will make his creations pronounce him wicked or unjust .


That should tell u, you are not making any sense dude .



And besides, even the human society frowns at suicide. And its not every time you take a mans life that u are a killer. Even in this case, u kill and the person is dead! Thats the end . Let me go into the popular mosaic law, the average Jew before reaching the age of 40 will have stoned a lot of people to death including relatives, does that make him a Murderer ?



But how would you justify roasting billions in a fire forever because of a life of just 70 years in an imperfect body that's already prone to sin ?

.
I don't have time for useless argument. What you ve said here has been trashed in various threads here. Since you choose to pretend not to see my point as usual of atheists then go ahead..

Peacefullove:
Another bizzare theory , if the definition of wickedness in the eyes of God is different from that of his creatures, Then I wonder what's the purpose of a conscience and commandments then, if it can't reflect properly the image and thoughts of the one who gave it. That means men are not made in Gods image

Obviously you think that God is your fellow man whom you can judge. Now listen.
For example, When God said we should not kill it means that you have no right to take away another person's life because you are not the owner of life. God is the owner of life..
When God takes back the life he has given to somebody then you want to classify him as a killer like your fellow man It doesn't add up.
God does not even permit suicide because you don't own your life.
He owns life. He gives it at will and takes it at will. nothing wicked about it pls.

The commandments that God gave to us is how we should relate with our fellow man and how we should relate to him. The commandment is not governing him.

hopefulLandlord:
Accuses people of quoting Bible out of context

Quotes bible out of context

cheap liar.I thought you said you are with nairaland. Oh..yeea I remember that telling lies is not bad in atheism. Everything is right. Shame.

01Mysticdon:
I tried commenting on a topic in the Islam section, a pop said I must agree to be a muslim before I comment.
Is that rule neccessary? Can't the mods do the work of guarding the board?
If it has to be that way then create a board for Atheists, Deists, Polyatheists, Buddhists, e.t.c.
Because just in case you don't know Nairaland is a global forum.
Thanks.
@seun
@lalasticlala
@mynd44
@obinoscopy
@fynestboi
@dominique

Seun is a hypocrite. He told people to speak out against religion yet he shields Islamic religion from being confronted.

TheSixthSense:
Think? I know. My experience is real to me, I didn't need the other experiences although it was what started the process. Besides, I was once like you guys, If anyone told me about hell, I would ask what do people do in heaven anyway, sing and worship forever? Then I would rather choose hell. From the wells book, it mentioned that God killed millions and the devil killed 2, with Gods permission and so much more. But now I know better. Sorry, my posts are long but if you can only see reason, please. My heart cries out you guys are on the wrong path.

No one could scare me with death and hell preaching. I didn't see death as a big deal, didn't mind going even. I probably had questions for God. but I tell you today, until you have this spirit God gives in you then you will know these things.

Tell me about what you think you are enjoying right now in this life/world...Atheism is hollow, empty, how did we decide to live without hope, and not get bothered if we are in bondage or get defeated by things we make no attempt to learn about.

If you want an experience with the living God seek Him, invite Him, He will come. People invite the devil and his demons most of the time, do you doubt that too? Or your atheism is only against God.

If you look for arguments, you will keep getting arguments, more and more and continue in this cycle and like Dale Carnegie said 'Nobody wins an argument'

Even if this Jesus thing is just in my head and I have gone crazy. Would I want to go back living and 'enjoying' my only life as I was before? No, No, an emphatic No way. This is such a better place. I now know what love is, I know what hope is, I know what peace is. Don't you even want to have these things? and I know that I was in bondage of sin in my ignorance. And these things I mentioned are free, Christ paid for it all.

But I guess your 'enjoyment' are probably not cheap. You pay for entertainment, drinks, parties, girls, drugs, no defined love in relationships and all of that and may still end in disappointment with no faith or hope for better. But I have joy brother, Joy like I have never experienced in all my years and the economy is supposed to be the worst in our history.

Anyway, if you want evidence go directly to Jesus. Invite Him. That's what I did. I believe He won't disappoint you.

Truth and nothing but the truth.
Its unfortunate how the devil blinds this people to believe that whatever they have not experienced does not exist. Some even dont want to experience at all so as not to be confronted with the truth. Some of them knows they are living a lie but they dont want to come out of it.

Peacefullove:
This guy mentality is : my god is wicked , there is nothing you can do about it !

Between us and God who defines what is wicked and what is not about his act? Is it you the creature?

hopefulLandlord:
That you believe doesn't suddenly make him real either

That its written in a book doesn't make him real

Spiderman must exist

Liar. I thought you said in the other thread that you ve left nairaland? What are you still doing here?