₦airaland Forum

Mrlemuel:
Ever since I came across Nairaland, I have noticed that Mr Seun Osewa have never for once supported any biblical principle.
Could it be that Mr Seun is an Atheist or an Apostate?

Seun is an atheist. He doesn't hide it.

Nairaland atheists are the most foolish crop of atheists. I can't imagine wasting my time talking about someone I consider not to be existing.
The no-god madness has really eaten deep into the nairaland atheists and messed them up. What a shame.

Thanks op. God bless you.

4kings:
I'm not talking about talents and gifts.(I know those stories)

I was talking about predestination of paul and jeremiah
Here are scriptural references pertaining paul and jeremiah:
Galatians 1 verse 15 & 16:
But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles,.....

Jeremiah 1 verse 5:
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Bro everyone is created for a purpose and that is what happened in the case of Jeremiah and Paul. We are all born with gifts and callings. Some people's calling are much bigger than the others as in the case of these two men.
The point I'm making is that not everyone fulfill their purpose in life. Some still make wrong choices. That you are born for a purpose does not mean you will be remote controlled to fulfill it. However,I still recognize the place of grace.

4kings:
How can predestination be, without people being tagged?, for god sake Paul said he was chosen from his mother's womb, and remember Jeremiah.

Sorry you are talking about talents/gifts which is also referred to as our various callings. The scripture says that we have various gifts. Some are called to be apostles, some teachers, some prophets, some evangelists some pastors, some are talented in the area of music, some in the medical field, some in humanities and so on. Is this what you mean by predestination? And you forgot that even though all of us are blessed with various talents yet a good number of us end up in an area that is not our calling in life. Even in the parable of the talents that Jesus gave, the man with one talent didnt use his own. If talents/gifts are what you call predestination then people wouldnt be ending up outside their area of calling.

4kings:
If according to the Bible god wishes that all human should receive salvation, why didn't he predestine a phrophet or something to come and give salvation, rather the antichrist was spoken of to even reduce the chances of salvation?

John 3;16 says- for God so love the world that............that WHOSOEVER believeth in him.....`
The salvation call has always been for WHOSOEVER WILL...
Simply put- Salvation is available for all men but its only those who are willing that will reach out to get it.
I wouldnt know how you arrived at the statement you made. Kindly refer me to the biblical portion where it is written,
Thanks,

4kings:
Ya, just like the Antichrist, end time activity(people's action & reaction) and the Elect/chosen were predestined.

I hope u get the logic, I am driving at here.

Yea I get your point bro.
Some events are predestined but not tagged with specific people. Anybody can be a victim to any of them that's why Jesus said we should pray thus - "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil"

Edybleketara:
d same way urs is irrelevant to me.

Cheap liar..
If my belief is irrelevant to you then you wouldn't have responded to a post I made to someone else in the first place..

ChemicalReaction:
How can be a good christian when I don't understand the bible. Too many questions to ask! I know the ten commandments were given in the old testament, I also know it still applies to present day christians, what I don't get is why there is a 'thou shalt not kill' in the commandments and our loving creator still instructed the israelites to kill their enemies. My question is, who created these enemies? Is it not God? Why would he love some children more than others? I'm confused! Over to the pastors in the house.

It is Christians that presented that image of a God that loves us so much that he cant harm us. The image they present about God is what they think and not what the bible presented.

God loves and hates too. In the scripture he said "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" but pastors will tell you he loves only.

In the Bible God said he created good and evil. But pastors will tell you that he created only good while Satan created evil. They forget that it was God that created Satan.
God says that he sees the end from the beginning. This means he saw the end of Lucifer before cresting him and still went ahead to create him showing that satan and evil were meant to be part of this life..
My dear pls follow the bible the way it presented God.
Let this truth be in you that God has every right to create as it pleases him..
Also bear it in mind that God's primary interest of creating all that he created was to please himself FIRST, then us. Not to please us first.
I ve always said this- God is not our colleague, He is our creator. We never had any agreement with him before creation on how he will create the universe so we have no grounds to accuse him of going against our agreement
God runs the universe. Period.

Jadonjack:
Bros, my theory is basically directed to the bible God...

He claims he's omnipotent
Since no being is omnipotent
He doesn't exist

In other words, any god who claims to be god cos he's omnipotent does not exist cos no being is omnipotent

Yea God is all powerful. He has the power to do all things. Anything he doesn't do simply means he doesn't want to do it not that that thing is more powerful than him.
rFor example, I have the money to buy bread but I don't want to buy. Does it mean I don't have the money?
Your arguments does not hold any water bros.
"I don't have" is different from "I have but I don't want to do"

Jadonjack:
Now, leaving on one side for a moment, the question of Gods omnipotence...

How should we understand Gods power in general? The reason for this question is that it seems obvious that our(human) power to act and gods power to act are importantly different. Generally, when we do things, we do one thing by doing another.

For instance, A revolutionary who wishes to incite a revolution decides to do this by assassinating the president. He assassinates the president by shooting him with a gun, he shoots the gun by pulling the trigger and so on.

He has to achieve his aims in this indirect way because he cannot control directly(by mere thought) the course of events...

He can only perform one of those actions by performing another...

Theists, generally agreed that Gods power is not essentially like that. Although he could choose to operate in this indirect manner, he does not have to. He can by-pass all the indirect methods which human uses, and he can actualise directly, watever status of affairs he wishes to.

In other words, if he(God) wishes to make the president dies, he does not have to bring it about that the president is shot, posisoned, savaged by hungry lions or struck by lightning. He can simply make the president drop dead, without there being any intervening causal chain between his(Gods) will and the end at which it aims.

If he wishes the gun to fire, he can simply make the bullet shoot out of the barrel, he does not have to make that happen by making the trigger move...

.

God is a creator and had his concept of how he wants the world to be before creation..
He made the world a natural place with supernatural intervention being experienced sometimes.
He gave man a creative brain so that we will be able to do things on our own and help ourselves
We are not living in a supernatural world so don't expect supernatural things to be happening all the time even after God has blessed us with creative brains.
The world is meant to be a battle ground between good and evil. That's how the creator wants it and that's why he wouldn't wipe evil away in this present world as you think... That's why Lucifer was created even though God knew he would fall.
The world cannot operate outside what it was created for. (_good against evil)

Jadonjack:
Now, leaving on one side for a moment, the question of Gods omnipotence...

How should we understand Gods power in general? The reason for this question is that it seems obvious that our(human) power to act and gods power to act are importantly different. Generally, when we do things, we do one thing by doing another.

For instance, A revolutionary who wishes to incite a revolution decides to do this by assassinating the president. He assassinates the president by shooting him with a gun, he shoots the gun by pulling the trigger and so on.

He has to achieve his aims in this indirect way because he cannot control directly(by mere thought) the course of events...

He can only perform one of those actions by performing another...

Theists, generally agreed that Gods power is not essentially like that. Although he could choose to operate in this indirect manner, he does not have to. He can by-pass all the indirect methods which human uses, and he can actualise directly, watever status of affairs he wishes to.

In other words, if he(God) wishes to make the president dies, he does not have to bring it about that the president is shot, posisoned, savaged by hungry lions or struck by lightning. He can simply make the president drop dead, without there being any intervening causal chain between his(Gods) will and the end at which it aims.

If he wishes the gun to fire, he can simply make the bullet shoot out of the barrel, he does not have to make that happen by making the trigger move...

Oh ok..i'm just seeing this now. Will go thru it much later in the day and reply you.

Jadonjack:
In some dictionaries, omnipotence is defined as infinite in power, having unlimited power, having unlimited authority,etc..

Which in a layman's world means the ability to do ALL things(you can quote me if you have any other definition for it. Theists especially).

You have not said anything yet. I'm still waiting for you. Go ahead and say what you have let's settle it.

hahn:
So, you mean to say Jesus get mouth pass Jehovah? Interesting

We are here to learn

Obviously you are so ignorant of the scriptures yet you came here quoting it and thinking you can mess it up.
You want to pick one part of a book and use it to pass a judgment while ignoring the other parts because you think it counters your judgment. That's quite hypocritical of you and it makes your submission baseless and quite nonsensical.

hahn:
Wait wait, I do not understand what you guys mean o.

Wasn't it the same Jehovah in the old testament that is in the new testament?

Ignorance is your problem.
have you not read in the new testament where Jesus stopped people from stoning a woman who committed adultery?
Show me any place in the new testament where these killings you listed happened pls or you hide your face in SHAME.

AccidentalGenius:
procreation leads to eggs. But if the egg is destroyed during development, there will be no birds. And if the birds don't procreate, they will dies off. The birds species survive on their own procreation. Their eggs are necessary for their survival. Without eggs, there are no birds.

.

How did the very first egg in the world that produced the very first bird come to be?

4kings:
Nice reply.

So how do u explain Judas predestination plan.

Its actually the betrayal of Jesus that was predestinated. The prophecy of the betrayal in the old testament did not mention anybody's name so it means that it could have been anybody. It must not be Judas but the betrayal was a must.

Judas failed Christ just as Peter did too but the difference between them was that Peter repented and came back to Christ while Judas repented and killed himself having felt ashamed to still be alive to face the one whom he had betrayed.
Christ would have accepted him too if he had come back to him. .

4kings:
But God hardened pharoah's heart, that means God controlled his will and the consequence he received. Right?

. Pharoah and his people had been wicked slave masters to the children of Isreal for several years and then it was time for them to face the consequences of their evil act. It was a pay back time for them.

Hardening of Pharoah 's heart was part of the consequences he and his people had to face for their choice of being wicked slave masters to the children of Isreal over the years
So what happened here was not a case of God imposing a choice on pharoah rather its a case of God unleashing vegeance on wicked slave masters as a consequence of their evil act

Lilbrown007:
This Is Another Faze I Wanna Know If I Got U Well

How do you mean? God gave u a mind and brain to reason and make choices and told you that your choice have consequences so what"s the control there? You control your choices but you don't control the consequences. That's why I said there is no absolute freedom anywhere in this world.
For example, you can choose to put your hand inside fire but you cant stop the fire from burning your hand. Cause and effect.

EkeneElectrons:
who is lucifer? how can God send his children to his enemy to punish when he knows his the cause of it there problems?

do you think at all?

Who are God's children according to the bible?
Don't deceive yourself. Everybody in the world are not God's children. God will not send his children to hell but the sinners will be sent to hell because they are not his children.
Both Satan and man were created by God so if you go against God as Satan did then you become God's enemy too like Satan.

Edybleketara:
Ur points would have made sense if there is actual proof dat ur God exist.

Unfortunately for you, your believe or unbelieve is irrelevant to me.

Lilbrown007:
So God Controls All Our Actions Or What??

It seems you are not reading my posts well. Go through my responses to you again. This time read throughly.

HardMirror:
You are the one missing the point.

What creator?

You believe God spoke to moses to murder people but you don't believe God did same for mohammed? That is my point.


I

I don't believe that God spoke to Mohammed and that's why I don't give my time to read about him. You believe God spoke to his prophets in the bible that's why you and your fellows are always engaging us in argument over our belief.

cloudgoddess:
In church the congregation screams "god is good all the time" for hours on end. My question isn't "what does god think of our opinions." It's, how can he be judged as "good" like you are saying, if he is clearly not by any consistent human standard? There is a blatant contraction that needs to be addressed.

Should we create a new definition of "good" that also includes "selfish, careless, lacking empathy, & dictator-like"? Or do you agree that people should stop saying god is good & start saying, "god is bad but i still follow him"? Surely that would be more accurate.

.

Same goes to you.
Atheists and their likes usually claim that God is bad/evil just as you are doing. How can he be judged as bad or evil by human standard when his good works abound both in the bible time and now?.
Should we re-define the meaning of bad to include his goodness that abound everywhere from generation to generation?

Lilbrown007:
So U Agree We Humans Don't Have Freewill??

what do you mean by freewill again? Freedom to live your life anyhow you like without any consequences? There is no such thing bro

hopefulLandlord:
All gods are man-made, it doesn't matter what names they call them

consolation prize.

Lilbrown007:
Jesu In One Night Christians Just Change Their Views

The ones you ve been interacting with in the past still maintains their stand. You just met a christian with a different stand from theirs. Thats just the simple truth. I dont do follow-pastor christianity. I read my bible.

Lilbrown007:
Basically U Saying We Humans Don't Have That FreeWill In Which Ur Religion Claim We Have!! And By The Way God Created Us For What?? Pleasure?? Remember Mary??

No Free Will Again!!

So Now Its Not Devil That Take Away Life Tell Me More??

People God Failed The All Loving God Test Now He Can Kill However He Wishes!! Now I Know Why He Love The Smell Of Burnt Flesh

Were Is The Free Will U Preach About Hypocrite

So God Ain't Our Father Again So All Those Pastors Had Been Lying That They Talk To God ?? WHAT Is This Personal Relationship Christians Claim To Have With God

your responses here does not answer the issues i raised.

In my point number one, you failed to tell me whether God consulted you before creating you.

In point number two you failed to tell me if you had agreement with him on how he will treat you on earth.
in the next point you failed to tell me whether you own your life.
Obviously you failed to provide proper answers to my submissions. Pls do the needful and answer me accordingly. For now you are just playing around those points i made.

Now let me attend to the your responses even though they are not coherentwith my points that you were responding to.

Lilbrown007:
Basically U Saying We Humans Don't Have That FreeWill In Which Ur Religion Claim We Have!! And By The Way God Created Us For What?? Pleasure?? Remember Mary??

[/b]

There is no absolute freedom anywhere in this world and this has always been my stand. You are given the freedom to choose what to do and face whatever be the consequences or benefits of your choice. You cant choose to do something and choose not to suffer the consequencies. This is what the bible portrays about man and his freedom right from the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were free to make their choices and they faced the consequences of their choice. If your view about freewill is different from the one in the scriptures then you are on your own with the pastors that are telling you something else.
Again i said that God created us for various reasons.

Lilbrown007:
No Free Will Again!!

[/b]

I ve already answered this.

Lilbrown007:
So Now Its Not Devil That Take Away Life Tell Me More??

]

The devil does evil but he succeeds only where God allows him. Take the case of Job for example, he sort God's permission before he could bring evil upon Job. And like i said before, God created everything for various reasons. God created Lucifer who later became the devil. In Isaiah 45;7 God said that he creates good and evil. And that he created everything.

Lilbrown007:
People God Failed The All Loving God Test Now He Can Kill However He Wishes!! Now I Know Why He Love The Smell Of Burnt Flesh

[/b]

Where did God say in the scriptures that he is an all loving God who cannot kill or destroy? Did the scripture from Genesis to Revelations portray him as such? Right from the bible times God has always taken lives as he wishes so what are you talking? You are just using what some preachers told you to measure God here rather than what is written in the scriptures. At another time when it is convenient for you then you will use what is written in the old testament to attack his person. Stop playing games bro. If after reading God's acts in the old testament and you come here to say this it means you are being hypocritical. If God wanted to pretend to be all good to man then he wouldnt have even inspired the writings of the old testament and even the entire scripture as it is now at all. But he doesnt pretend about his dealings with man/his creatures. He wants us to know about how he deals with us both positive and negative.

Lilbrown007:
Were Is The Free Will U Preach About Hypocrite

]

You have a different view about this which is not consistent with what is in the scriptures so pls go and reconcile your views.

Lilbrown007:
So God Ain't Our Father Again So All Those Pastors Had Been Lying That They Talk To God ?? WHAT Is This Personal Relationship Christians Claim To Have With God

[/b][/quote]God is our HEAVENLY FATHER. Does that make him your colleague or one you can rub shoulders with and judge him like yourself?.

cloudgoddess:
Explain how you are certain that any of this is true, and not just a primitive human-made concept of what God is. These are a lot of extraordinary claims and thus they require extraordinary evidence.

What is there to explain again?
Were yoou the one that chose to be created?
Did you have any agreement with God before he created you on how he will treat you on earth?
Are you the one that gave life to yourself?
if God's primary aim of creating us is to please us then there wouldnt have been evil at all and all other things that makes us uncomfortable.

cloudgoddess:
Also, explain why the character you have just described should be judged as "good" by human standards ?

Human standards? Your approval or disapproval of God's character is irrelevant to his person.

cloudgoddess:
if, going solely from what you've just written, he embodies everything we consider "bad" (selfish, uncompassionate, inconsiderate, uncaring). Why should anyone consider him good when he appears to possess the same traits as the devil?

what you described there is not what he is but you and your co-travellers in atheism will always choose to see everything bad about him. For us who loves him we know that God is so good and that his goodness spreads to everyone including you people. You can only continue to live in denial of this but your denial of it is also irrelevant.

HardMirror:
Below is a "perfect" explanation to why God does things that seems unjust or evil to us humans.
Makes sense right?
Yes it does, but why should we still question God? Why is it important?
It is still important because humans have found that using a supreme creator as a motive for killing, stealing, raping, slavery, genocide, greed, segregation, racism, etc always gives total control of religious adherent.
When we question "God" we actually question the validity of the supposed message, principles, commandments of this "God"
It is to be assumed that no one Knows God, else we would be confronted with millions of contradicting claims all from individuals who claim to have heard from God.
2 brothers in the church go to meet the pastor claiming God said sister Rose is their wife. This happens a lot in churches. So who did God really speak to?
There are hundreds of religion all claiming to have heard from the Supreme Being, so who is telling the truth?
Supposed evil men do and claim God commanded them to do, how should we justify them? Cos it is stamped by "God commanded it?" How?
We would keep questioning and querring "God" because men lie and manipulate.
In truth has anyone heard from God or we are the gods and we speak for ourselves in the name of God.
Winner01, you made a lot of sense here and for the first time, I applaud you. I don't hate you guys, but I hate that you fail to see the whole picture.
You fail to investigate the history of your religion and fail to see the possibilities of it being cooked up. Yet you don't fail to see this flaw in islam or other religions. So why spare yours and dissect the faults in others

Obviously you seem not to be getting the point that guy made. Let me make more clear to you.

1. The creator never consulted you to seek for your permission before creating you.

2. you never had any agreement with him before he created you on how he should treat you in life for you to have the grounds to say he failed in the agreement.

3.His primary aim of creating is not to please what he created.

4.You are not permitted to take away the life of another person because you are not the owner of life. Both your life and the other person's life are owned by God and he has the right to take back the life he has given and there is nothing you can do about it than rant.

5.You can go ahead to scream how cruel and evil God is but to him, life is just running according to the purposes for which he created it.

Let me make a small analogy with animals even though its not exact with God because we are not creators like God.
Animals may have the same bad perception about human in their kingdom considering the rate and manner we kill them on daily basis. To them, we are cruel and evil but to us humans, they are just serving the purposes for which they are meant for in our pot of soup, in our business lives etc

You are just a creature therefore It is not even your standards that makes God a creator.
you can only cry, yell, rant, make noise and display all sorts of anger and denials about him but all those things starts and ends with you. It doesnt change who he is. He remains the creator and runs the universe.

6. You are seeing God as your colleague or partner who stands on the same platform with you and therefore should be judged like you. Too bad bro. GOD IS NOT YOUR COLLEAGUE, HE IS YOUR CREATOR.

KingEbukaNaija:
1. Are you an atheist?

2 Your username is "truthislight" , what truth is being purported as light ?

He actually spreads falsehood. He is not an atheists. He specializes in twisting the scriptures to suit his false doctrines

Lilbrown007:
[b]Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. “Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you.” (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.

Even though he didn’t kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence . It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God’s love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.

First i want you to clear your mind of the deceit that makes you see human as colleagues of the creator. As if our creator had an agreement with us before creation on the conditions he must meet if he must create us, what he must do to us and what he must not do so that when he fails in any part of the agreement then you begin to speak against him as you are doing now. We are not here on our own and had no agreement with him. He has reason and purpose for everything he has created.

Now to the issues you raised here i still ask- If God wanted the smell of burnt sacrifice, what about it? If he wants to use an animal to fulfill part of the purposes they were created for then whats the cry about it?
Obviously he didnt want Abraham to sacrifice Isaac rather it remains a test of Abraham's faith as He said it and it is to serve as a lesson both for Abraham and the rest of us who have read the story. If he wanted Isaac to be slaughtered for the sacrifice he wouldnt have stopped Abraham from doing it.

Lilbrown007:
[b]
Even though he didn’t kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence . It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God’s love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.

To you what God did is an evil but to God there is nothing evil about using any of his creature for the purpose for which he/it was created.

And has it ever occurred to you that humans can in the same way be perceived as cruel and evil in the animal kingdom considering the rate and manner at which we slaughter these animals on daily basis? But to us there is nothing evil about it rather they are serving the purpose for which they are meant to serve in our pot of soup etc. (We are not the creators of these animals then think of the feelings of the one who created and had his purpose of creating us all)
Again Abraham couldnt have lived in our time. He lived in a time where he could serve the purpose he served. Thats the creators plan and purpose.Generations come and fulfill their purposes and go. Thats how life runs.

Lilbrown007:
The first seven chapters of Leviticus have extensive rules regarding animal and food sacrifices. These offerings are supposed to be burnt so that God can smell them. If you read through these it seems clear to me that the priests were getting their followers to make a big feast for them every week. The priests were very particular about what kind of food to bring and how to prepare it.


.[/b]

God spelt our to the people how they can provide food for their priests and they were doing it so your assumptions here is wrong. The priests were simply carrying out God's instruction and they did it with utmost caution knowing fully well that God will strike them (as was the case then) if they are deceitful about it.

Lilbrown007:
Even more peculiar is God’s obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said “Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me.” Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that “consecrate” means a burning sacrifice. ]

Nope. To consecrate here does not imply burnt offering for human. King James version said sanctify. To consecrate is to set aside for God. He then decides how he will use each of the things set aside for him. your insinuations here are wrong bro.

Lilbrown007:
These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.

]

Again the priests acted according to God's instruction. God is the owner of all creation and controls things according to the purpose he made them for. Do you know what it means to be a creator? or is it you, a creature that will set a benchmark that will make God a creator? No. Bro you are still seeing God as your colleague whom you stand on the same plaform with in this life and therefore should be judged like you. It doesnt work that way. Thats the naked truth that you must face in this life. You can only be angry and speak against His actions but then it doesnt change anything about Him.

I ve already said it that Abraham and the old testament people cannot live in our time because they are not purposed to live in our time just as we are not purposed to live in their time. We are just running according to the creators calendar for this life. Face it no matter how bitter it may sound to you.

Seun:
Does God have mixed feelings when a person is being burnt alive by a mob? On one hand, it's murder. On the other hand, it smells so nice...

A person being burnt by a mob committed an offence and is suffering for his evil deed so there is nothing sweet about his death if at all God requires human burnt offering but he doesnt.

And of course you also know that a mob lynching a human is not doing it with the intent of sacrifice to God and in a situation where they claim to be doing it, then they are not doing it based on biblical injunction.

God does not require human burnt offering rather animal burnt offering. And that was in the old testament.

Rilwon:
Okay.

Cheers.