₦airaland Forum

ypeace:
@ifeann

Bukhari (62:137)- An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432)- Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about Reproduction interruptus.

That muslims can keep slaves....... Yes.
That muslims can have sex with them....... Yes
But I wonder how you read those hadiths and arrived at rape.
I think it will be better for you to post the hadith instead of your own summary.

I am tried of quoting ur sources, I am sure by now u know I know I state facts from your quran and hadiths.

but apparently u like using analogies so let me give u one.

If your city was just attacked by the Jews for whatever reason be it you attacked first even or they provoked. They kill a lot of people u know. Massive massacre and they win. And after the raid your sisters, mother, aunts and several other women who are married are rounded up and brought to the head commander.
The head commander then tells his soldiers that if their right hand possess any of the women they can have sex with them, "just fu.c k her if you captured her. ". This scenario is in ur quran and hadiths

Isn't that rape. Could any of the women just willingly allow the soldiers to have sex with them after killing their people, while their husbands are still alive and probably tied up.
Even if it was days after battle.

Sahih Muslim 8:29: “IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A CAPTIVE WOMAN AFTER SHE IS PURIFIED (OF MENSES OR DELIVERY) IN CASE SHE HAS A HUSBAND, HER MARRIAGE IS ABROGATED AFTER SHE BECOMES CAPTIVE.”

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good"


Have u seen it or u just won't accept it. I will give u time to see the full context from your Koran, this is evil and immoral.

ypeace:
You said you didn't make claims but yet in few paragraphs away you make a claim that Muhammad and other Christian faith which you don't believe in came to attack christains. May be what we refer to as claim is different. I may not have gotten what you interpreted claim to mean but I think you can understand what I meant by you making claims.

Maybe I missed the part where you gave an interpretation by a scholar in Islam. Kindly refer me to the scholar's interpretation again.

Translation and interpretation to me meant two different things. Why you used both interchangeably in you second paragraph is not so clear.

When you mentioned conscience and all sort, I think you expect me to use my common sense to reason my way out of Islam. Exactly why I try as much as possible to avoid quoting the Qur’an, hadith and even the bible in my discussions.

The discussion doesn't have a goal again, that may be the reason why you are bored. We keep jumping from one topic to another. I think I warned against that earlier.

I don't really see the point of your last paragraph, because as much as we have muslims who abuses, we also have christains who do. And I don't remember using any abusive word while discussing with you.

Since you are bored, I feel we will meet to discuss other issues some other time if God wills. Shalom.

Didn't our discussion start in this topic
https://www.nairaland.com/2052606/understanding-beautiful-verse-muslims-love
(Or did I confuse you for someone else, sorry if I did because I am chatting with a lot of Muslims.)

And where I gave this interpretation by your renowned scholar Ibn Kathir, "Now let's look at a popular early Muslim interpretation;
According to the highly respected Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir- early Qur'anic commentator and Tabi'un, Sayid ibn Jubayr (who lived at the time of ProphetMuhammad, and was a companion ofAisha), had said:
[فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعاً]
.....Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people."
**So early understanding of the verse claims it applies only to shedding the blood of a believer(Muslim). This can be disputed so let's go back to the Qu'ran."
********
If u re read the sentence on misinterpretation and mistranslation u will see their was no mix up.

Some Muslims claim I misinterpreted while in actual fact they should say their scholars mistranslated because I just present their translations in English from 7th century Arabic and then present and analyse the interpretations of your scholars. Am I clear now??

On the issue of insults, you have been very polite. I just wish u could drop the dogma of Islam and read outside your sources to get other opinions. Can't you see all the problems Islam is causing. All the barbaric practises it encourages.

You also said, "... Exactly why I try as much as possible to avoid quoting the Qur’an, hadith and even the bible in my discussions." why would you not confidently quote your sources and my Bible, you have attempted in the past. Get a bible your prophets tell u you can check his stories from the people(Christians and Jews) who got the message before you in (Surah 10:94-95; 16:43). As a Muslim your mind can't understand why Jesus is the son of God and one with the father...and why They are 1 and we Christians worship one God. I can help you try to understand it by Gods grace via emails.

Its up to you.

Change2015:
I have no problem with any person that tries to be a good educated Christian or Muslim. Surprised? I do not see how that translates into forcible conversion or all the things you claim to fear. No matter the religion of our leaders, few have proved to be decent human beings. Obasanjo tried to change constitution to achieve third term and failed. How will anyone islamize or christianise any part of Nigeria? It is a ridiculous idea that you guys are selling on behalf of the pdp, who have few good arguments to explain why Jonathan needs 4 more more years to achieve... Nothing... After 4 yrs of... Nothing!

Hi friend, I can tell u are an open minded person which is good. But I was expecting a far better reply from you.

You say," How will anyone islamize or christianise any part of Nigeria?" well then u don't know Islam. Islam is an ideology and their quran commands them to go and dominate the world. That is why we now have over 49 Muslim countries.
And half of Nigeria espousing sharia law.

How long will it be before it is the entire country. Nigeria joined the Organisation for Islamic Contries in 1986 to the consternation of the Christians but the ruling northerns did it. So technically Nigeria is an Islamic country though it is secular in reality.

My only fear is that buhari will continue from where murtala and babangida left off.

You also said,"It is a ridiculous idea that you guys are selling on behalf of the pdp.."

why do u say "you guys" if you look at my past posts in the politics section you will see my stance on the pdp. I don't like the pdp, I voted buhari in 2011. But since then I have gotten to know him better and followed his statements in the news, some as far back as 2001. My conclusion is that he is a religious bigot and will be a threat to Nigeria's unity if elected. He is also a man of strong convictions as well as a determined individual, qualities which I like.

Jonathan has actually performed above average on paper. His reforms on manufacturing, power and agriculture are catching on. However, on ground it has been a terribly poor result especially as oil price falls and dollar strengthens.

buhari will cause more harm than good as far as facts on the ground suggest.

dastranger:
.

This Qur'an could never have been devised by any besides Allah. Rather it is confirmation of what came before it and an elucidation of the Book which contains no doubt from the Lord of all the worlds. Do they say, "He has invented it"? Say: "Then produce a sura like it and call on anyone you can besides Allah if you are telling the truth."
(Qur'an, 10:37-38)

Verily! It is We(Allah) Who have sent down the Quran to you (O Muhammad SAW) by stages.
(Qur'an , 76:23)

And this is a Book We have sent down and blessed, so follow it and have fear of Allah so that hopefully you will gain mercy. (Qur'an, 6:155)

Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?
[Noble Quran 4:82]


The Quran is from Allah (God) not Muhammad's story

Salam alaykum
The quran is not from the one true God,

Ponder this;

When you say Islam is true what you are actually saying is that your god sent the great "messenger" ISA, who was born of a virgin woman and performed countless miracles including giving life to clay (in your book), in the holy bible he gave life to the dead, walked on water etc.
And when the Jews/ pharisees get him and take him to his death, your god then tricks the Jews and Romans to believe that ISA was crucified (check this it is in your quran: for he was not crucified but it was made to them as if he was) and there by starting the great way of life/ religion which has helped countless people find true peace.

Do you see the paradox here. What u claim here is that your god could not preserve his own words in the injeel/bible (600 years after Jesus). And u expect the Koran to be preserved 1400years after Mohammed. This defies common sense.

After this your "all knowing" god then sends Mohammed to fight the Jews and Christians (a religion he helped create).

How can u believe this. How can your "all knowing" god create a religion and then send another man, Mohammed who performed no miracles to give commands contrary to most of his early "messenger" ISA.

This makes no sense.
Your Islam is just a mixture of scriptures from the torah, gnostics "christains" and paganism(worship of the moon good, the evidence is still on your mosques- the crescent moon and star).

If you look at it objectively you will see so many of the circumstantial "revelations" came at the whims of Mohammed's desires. How do u even explain the numerous abrogations(why does you god change his mind so often) and the fact that many western Muslims now preach that the Quran 's message should be reinterpreted because of those embarrassing verses.

Ifeann:
Yazach

I am only going to explain 1 of the verses you quoted, if you want to understand the other one, get a holy Bible, read the entire thing and ask me for information regarding the larger context if you are too lazy to read the entire chapter.

You quoted Exodus 21: 7-11,
...And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to MARRY HIS SON, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as HIS DAUGHTER. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a FREE WOMAN without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Remember, like I told you before, this is ancient law, thousands of years before Jesus and your prophet.

And notice you picked one of the worse verses about the treatment of slaves in the old testament, and yet it is better than your best verse on slavery.

what you didn't notice is that the Jews were ALLOWED TO MARRY SLAVES AND THEY ARE FREE TO LEAVE HENCE NOT AGAISNT THEiR WILL as the ending of that passage shows.

in your haste to embarrass the old testament you once again condemn the Islam as evil . Let's see how slaves are treated in Islam even if they are married.

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (24:32)-"And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.
Qur'an (2:178)-"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans arenotcreated equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's)

Now the new testament

Galatians 3:28p
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond(slave) nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13:"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond(slave) or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Colossians 3:11:"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond(slave) nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Yazach here is more from sahih Muslim and sahih bakhari. The best most authentic hadiths if you are a sunni Muslim. The Narrations have been summarised for your convinence;

Bukhari (80:753)-"The Prophet said,'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'"

Bukhari (52:255)- The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.

Bukhari (41.598)- Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

Bukhari (62:137)- An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432)- Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765)- A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

Bukhari (34:351)- Muhammad sells a slave for money. He was thus a slave trader.

Bukhari (72:734)- Some contemporary Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to believe that Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of many places in the Hadith where a reference is made to a human being owned by Muhammad. In this case, the slave is of African descent.

Muslim 3901- Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.

Muslim 4112- A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free.

Bukhari (47:743)- Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command.

Bukhari (59:637)-"The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid,'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?'When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said,'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?'I said,'Yes.'He said,'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really"wives,"since Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.

Yazach

I am only going to explain 1 of the verses you quoted, if you want to understand the other one, get a holy Bible, read the entire thing and ask me for information regarding the larger context if you are too lazy to read the entire chapter.

You quoted Exodus 21: 7-11,
...And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to MARRY HIS SON, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as HIS DAUGHTER. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a FREE WOMAN without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Remember, like I told you before, this is ancient law, thousands of years before Jesus and your prophet.

And notice you picked one of the worse verses about the treatment of slaves in the old testament, and yet it is better than your best verse on slavery.

what you didn't notice is that the Jews were ALLOWED TO MARRY SLAVES AND THEY ARE FREE TO LEAVE HENCE NOT AGAISNT THEiR WILL as the ending of that passage shows.

in your haste to embarrass the old testament you once again condemn the Islam as evil . Let's see how slaves are treated in Islam even if they are married.

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (24:32)-"And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.
Qur'an (2:178)-"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans arenotcreated equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's)

Now the new testament

Galatians 3:28p
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond(slave) nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13:"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond(slave) or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Colossians 3:11:"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond(slave) nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Godwinsilas:
By EFEROVO IGHO

WHEN I wrote in a recent short online piece that there is nothing like Christmas in Christianity, I did not realise it would generate the very pleasing response it got.
There I said that Christmas is Roman Catholicism and that it came wholesale from Babylon and is it about Tammuz (also called Dumuzi) ‘demonized’ as Baal by Satan, and which Tammuz was born on 25th of December and celebrated same day in ancient Sumerian, Babylonian and Assyrian until Rome brought it to the ‘church’ masking it with
‘Jesus’ to lead many astray. “There is Christianity”, I wrote, “and there is Roman Catholicism.

The two are not the same. Roman Catholicism is a faith and it is a religion, all their adherents would tell you so. And Christianity is a
faith and it is a religion (religion of life that begets eternal life).

Christianity is found IN THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE ALONE. All traditions of men, cults and demons have no place in Bible no matter how long
practiced and embraced, no matter how the ages have drunken of this particular wine of fornication of the
Great LovePeddler of the Book of
Revelation.

Christianity is not Baal Worship. “With Paul all days are equal. And he said I should follow him even as he is the follower of Christ. Let not the devil beguile you
with dates and seasons. Seek you the Kingdom of God and its righteousness first. That is what matters. One faith, one foundation, one Church, one Lord and Jesus Christ that Lord! Brake away from
all beguilement no matter how trapping!” No matter how luring I may add.

Continue here www.leapfame.com/content/thread/1220

I don't understand why Muslims, atheists and even ignorant "Christians" attack Christmas.

This is a day that the church picked to celebrate Jesus Christ yet people bring up all sorts of arguments; how do we knw its his exact date of birth, isn't that day associated with some pagan practise in the past, but Christmas is not in the bible (the word bible is not in the bible). Isn't it all silly.

Some people will spend the day drinking, partying or opening presents by Santa clause but are they Christians?.

Christmas is a day that most true Christians attend church and praise God.
Its a day that see charity donations exponentially increase.
Its a day of thanks giving and gift giving.
A day whole families come together and bond.
Its a day of love and the message of Christ is heard by both Christians and non Christians.
Its a day for reflection.
Its a holiday people take the day off from work and stay home with their kids.

Instead of tracing it origins I would rather commend the church for turning it to the beautiful day that it is today.
A day chosen to celebrate the Son of God who is born that will save man from sin.

ypeace:
@ifeann
These are real life problems islam provides solution to. You disagree with the solutions because you have a better one which I expect you to state.
Because people used the law neglecting the conditions surrounding it is never the fault of the law maker.

I asked those questions because I don't want to make the assumption that you believe all Jesus teaching applies to Governing a state.

If it does, then let's see how these problems can be solved using the teachings of Christ or at best the comforter since that is what I assumed is the standard of comparison.



All laws in Islam has conditions. Like lawyers, we have those who specializes in that aspect of Islam. For you to say a law in Islam is bad, I expect you know the laws and their conditions and also you have a better law for replacement. That is what I think our discussion is about.

But if you wanna learn about the laws in Islam, you ask questions and not make claims as you have been doing. It is not possible filling a cup which is already full. Peace.

I have made no claims, I have only provided you with the actions of your prophet in the top 2 sahih hadiths (bakhari and Muslim) as well as verses from quran with the interpretation from your scholars. I have my opinions and have I said them as honest as possible.

I have given u their translations from classical Arabic to 21st century English, but you claim your own scholars misinterpreted/ mistranslated it, but I posit you are the one who wants to dilute and reinterpret the quran even tho your god has said it is clear and easy to understand and the commands are for all time.

If your god is all knowing how come commands for slavery was given in several verses, including breeding them while infact Today slavery is illegal in most of the world except in Islamic countries.
Qatar has major slavery issues and dubia which treat the dark Arab race as subhuman. Tho it is not wide spread due to human rights groups and the dominance of the largely christian populated western world governements that keep the Muslims in check. I have given u so many verses translated by your sources. I won't tell you everything, read your quran and the bible(NT).

From my discussions with you I sense you have a conscience, can u sleep with a 9year old child..my guess will be NO because it is NOT moral, yet a man u emulate did it.


You keep telling me Mohammed brought laws for this world. That's funny, this is one of the reasons we know Mohammed is a false prophet because the Holy Bible tells us we are NOT of THIS world.
Do you know why there is separation of church and state, why there are NO christain countries. Because the church leading states as a government will soil the integrity of the church. Government and corrupt are inseparable. Christ made it clear to us his kingdom is coming and your quran even says he is coming. Christ told us to beware of false prophets that will come to deceive, these are in the christain Gospels written hunderds of years before Islam, and before the Gnostic "christains", before the Jehovah withness, Mormons, word of faith movement.. These groups come and attack the gospel or attempt to deceive but yet Christianity stands strong.

If you chose to become a christain, a true christain doing Gods work, you will be insulted, persecuted and even killed like it is done in the middle east.. We expect this as christians because it is said in our Bible. I have been insulted here by Muslims over and over again. But I remember it is alread said in the bible in Matt. 10:25-26, " If they have called the Master Beelzebub, how much more shall they call His household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."

Do u want us to discuss someother issue because I am bored of the killings in Islam as a topic.

Change2015:
People can follow and must be free to follow any religion they like or none at all. But why must a 'state' have a religion? Can a parastatal have a religion? Will ministries next claim they have one? The states are meant to guarantee the freedom of every resident, even if he is a pagan in the opposition party. Religion is the private concern of people and should inform but not dictate government law or policy. Personally I'm sick of the religious hypocrisy of Nigerians. Can anyone leave his mobile phone or wallet for even 2 minutes in any church or mosque and hope to find it?

Hi,
Now I see what you mean.
Do you know Islam is the only religion I know of that is political.
That's why we have over 40 Islamic nations.
I see your name is change2015.
So I guess u oppose Jonathan.
But do you know buhari is a staunch support of sharia in Nigeria and a very conservative Muslim.

So how do u reconcile your stance on religion with your support for buhari

yazach:
If your statements are through, you will have to explain this

Why would bible support slavery, sex slave, treating slaves in bad manners(beating, sexual harassment, sex trading etc )
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Bible even support man selling his own child as slaves

If you noticed I haven't replied you for some days, I have been having some intelligent engagements with smart Muslims, who at least attempt to defend and not throw red herrings and who never bring up the old testament argument because the context explains itself and most smart Muslims know how ancient those verses are, they come to the Jews at a time in a world of anarchy, chaos and rebellion which was thousands of years before Jesus and Jesus came 600 years before Mohammed and because most qu'ran reading Muslims know that your quran affirms the torah and other chapters of the old testament and even the injeel, I can provide verses to prove this... as well as the fact that Christians don't live under the covenant of the old law (OT). If you knew anything about theology you won't be here exposing your ignorance.

ypeace:
@ifeann pastorkun
It is a general knowledge that Islam prohibits alcohol and pork for Muslims. But I don’t think it is a general knowledge that muslim can eat these if it is the only way by which an illness can be cured or only way to avoid death by hunger. Having this in mind, lets pause on Islam and see your solution to some problems that occur in real life.

War (killing)
Boko haram, Isis has chosen a violent way to ask for whatever they want. Hitler declared war too. Since thou shall not kill, then what is the best way the entity in which war is declared upon can respond?

Slavery
The Arabic word for a slave is Abdul or abeed. Translation of words from one language to another adds meaning or subtracts from its meaning. If the word owph translated as bird in the bible is rigidly correct, then, at least one verse of the bible will be wrong. But if concepts are translated and interpreted in the boundary of their concept, then slavery would include taking away rights of individuals. Prisoner is just a branded name of a slave considered to be a criminal. And since taking away individual rights (slavery) is prohibited, then, what has your believe suggested in replacing prisons where criminals (slaves) are kept? But if prisoners are not slaves, what then makes abdul or abeed slaves?

Raids
What would you suggest the Nigeria govt do when they get the information that book haram are on their way to Sambisa from the market place? Because all I can understand is that Nigeria govt will be doing ‘highway rubbery’ on book haram which is prohibited in your religion. What about illegal good, toxic goods brought into the country?

And your point is what?
I am not going to answer silly analogies, I have mentioned this to you before.
You do a poor job defending your faith.
If u have explanations on the myraid of issues I have with Islam then explain them and lets see how the various terrorists are not true Muslims. Or if you have questions about Christianity I will do my best to help you with answers.

Do you knw the prosecutions we Christians live under Islamic nations. Its inhumane, their national cards carry their religion on it for easy discrimination. Even shi'a living under sunnis and vice versa under go terrible persecutions. Why would I think that kind of religion is Good.

Ibralhas:
The teenager should be executed by considering the law of Moses of An eye for an eye.

My friend,
Why do u decide to say this, why are you exposing your ignorance.

aurenflani:
The Arabian peninsula especially the Hijaz area was dominated by idolators prior to the Islamic faith. They worship idols curved out of stones and woods. Islam preached the absolute unity of God. Islam attracted the anger and wrath of the polytheists and Christians. The former who saw it as a challenge and the later who saw it as a means to belie their own belief of also associating God with His creatures whom they ascribed divinity to.

I suggest you make up your mind on the issue of idol in Islam. It is either you are talking of christianity of being an up-shoot of Roman idolatery or you accept Islam for what it is of being a religion founded on the Absolute Unity of God.

But you are aware of what the opponents of christianity have written with regards to the Christian faith and also Jesus and his mother Mary, right? If you don't accept their claims why do you refer me to the opponents of Islam for "knowledge?

in response to me asking you to read anti Islam sources, You said,"But you are aware of what the opponents of christianity have written with regards to the Christian faith and also Jesus and his mother Mary, right? If you don't accept their claims why do you refer me to the opponents of Islam for "knowledge?"

Your rambled about a lot of ideas and still didn't make any point that I am not aware of. I really don't understand how u Muslims think. How can you depend on only your sources. How do you know that u are on the right path or is it because your Muslim parents told you u are??

I try to be nice and polite but sometimes you guys ask questions and make statements that is so unbelievable.


I read and learn from pro-islam sources , I have listened to some of your best apologists as well, here let me mention some and their profile;

1. Yusuf estes. (Hardcore Muslims don't like him because he is a white boy that converted to Islam and presents himself as a scholar, he once compared the Koran to the catholic hymn book, I found that funny because that is shirk),

2. ahmed deedat(the no nonsense orator, core Muslim, lair, brilliant debator, once proclaimed may God silence the deceivers, had a stroke 4weeks later, couldn't move or talk for 9years, there is a famous clip of him crying in bed on youtube) ,

shibry Ali( ahmed Nadia- another popular Muslim I have listened to, once proclaimed that shibry Ali's son was born blind because shibry Ali saw a passage in the Koran and yet contradicted it, some verse that had to do with christ's crucifixion),

zakir naik: no nonsense Muslim, has faulty arguments, intelligent, and runs the website -lovezakirnaik or something like that ..)

Anjem Choudary(you guys hate him for his brutal support of no nonsense Islam ), he referred to the Sept 11 terrorists as the magnificent 19, former lawyer, lives in london under welfare from the western British government and yet curses them...etc. I also study on several christain scholars and apologetics as well, infact I just got st Thomas aquinas, he was an epic philosopher and theologian. One of the best of the best.

I really don't like athesim sources because they then to be blind, arrogant and close minded in their argument.

Why did I list all this, its because I want to show u I am not close minded and not anti Muslims( I have Muslim family members) however, I despite the evils in your quran and haddiths. I probably know more about your top apologists than you.

You have to read wide, question things and pray. this is something Muslims don't do, and the order not to ask questions is in your Koran;

Surah 5:101-102: “O ye who believe! Ask not
questions about things which if made plain to
you, may cause you trouble …Some people
before you did ask such questions, and on that
account lost their faith.” (Yusuf Ali)

This is because if you start asking questions and reading other sources you will see the clear falsehood of the quran.

Pray to the God of Abraham, Moses and Jacob to reveal the truth to you and help you understand why Christians do NOT accept Islam even to the point of death at the hands of Muslims practising the command ;

Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

And why former Muslims reject Islam even when they die in the hands of Muslims practising the verses;

"If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." (Bukhari, Book 52, Number 260)
and
"The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." (Bukhari, Book 83 Number 17)

The choice is yours.

Change2015:
The fine point I was trying to make is that a state of the federation of Nigeria cannot and should not be allowed to declare itself to have a religion. Whatever the religion. People were already using sharia if they wanted so why must the state make one religion non-negotiable? We all have practices in our cultures that would embarrass us similarly, and as for child sex issues, it is not just a northern problem. Many of these practices would reduce if poverty was decreasing, but instead it is increasing. When the first boko haram people were burning their certificates because of joblessness some of us were laughing. Now years later we still refuse to accept that poverty and idleness are the devil's best tools for recruitment.

Emmm nope. When u say boko haram is fuelled by the socio-economic and even political system in Nigeria I will agree strongly. When u say religion as a whole is not necessary in Nigeria then what u are preaching is atheism, then I will vehemently disagree.

aurenflani:
Still being mischievious again. If you claimed to have knowlege regarding the Qur'an and Islam, you should have known that Muhammad and his followers have been targets of persucation right from day one of his mission. Now, you quoted versus from the Qur'an and gave them your bias interpretation while ignoring their historical context to deceive the ignorant but when I confrontated you the only thing I get in reply is slander!

Here is another false claim by you, what is a moon god in Islam? Can you quote that verse/verses in which Muslims are told by the Qur'an that the moon is their god or that she should be worshipped? No? Did you get that from your on christian training of worshipping Jesus?

Idont know why you called the moon a she? Maybe there is something you know that I don't. I would rather call it an IT.

You can't even spell persecution. I really want to give up more details but i won't. I don't think you will appreciate the information. I can only tell you look at the historical origins of Islam and its association with paganism, get ur info from objective sources, from anti Islam sources and then go to YOUR OWN scholars and Muslim apologetics for their defense.
Do the research. Then make up your OWN mind as u enter your mosque with the crescent moon and star above it.

lebienconnu:
Your hatred for Muhammadu Mustofa (SAW) knows no bound. Yet, it does not diminish his glory. Now I will tell you what he told people like you in his lifetime : "be in peace".

What makes you think I hate him. I don't hate anyone. I don't make things personal. I just stated every fact I find in your quran and hadiths.
You said, " Now I will tell you what he told people like you in his lifetime : "be in peace"

He also told you this, Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Why won't you do these other ones, is it because you are a moderate Muslim and if you do everything you become an extremist.

Change2015:
You're missing the point. Most of the North accepts sharia as their traditional law and custom. The constitution recognises everyone's traditional law but has started rejecting outdated and discriminatory practices, as in the igbo case. Obasanjo had an opportunity to challenge zamfara state when it declared sharia the religion of the state. I do not believe any state has that authority. But he did nothing, because pdp is all about election calculations, and whatever happens thereafter is not their business.

You didn't appreciate the point I tried to raise.
And what makes you think that if obj refused sharia that it would not have happened either way in the north. I have seen videos of Muslims proudly declaring that some streets of LONDON are under sharia law. They go around harassing people and calling themselves something along the lines of Muslim neigbourhood watch.

Islam is the problem. You cited the igbo case of inheritance. What u have to know is that that was driven by poverty and greed. What u forgot to mention is that the entire southern Nigeria had their terrible traditional practises which have almost entirely died out because of the missionaries and Christianity. However practises such as child marriage, stonings, amputations and even slavery is encouraged in Islam.
And as long as there is Islam, even if sharia is not practised, there will be cases like this.

aurenflani:
Can you give me like five verses from the Qur'an that the Prophet copied from the agnostics bible?

My friend, Don't you see how silly this question is. Am sorry but you Muslims ask and say the dumbest things.

If someone wants to steal under false pretence like these 419ers and draft a letter to that effect. Do you think that person is going to include some paragraphs saying he is a fraud and where he copied parts of his information from.

You will only tell if he is a fraud by comparing that document to an authentic one or sending it to a lawyer for vetting.

The authentic document here is the Bible and torah and the lawyers here are the Christians and Jews. They have given their verdict long since the days of Mohammed. He is a fraud, he gathered a document(the quran) with paragraphs from the torah, Gnostic scriptures and pagan practises including the now confirmed fake Gospel of Thomas. His crimes against humanity are available in the hadiths and Koran , if he was alive he would have faced the war crimes department of the UN, that is of course, after his release from prison for paedophilia.

malvisguy212:
According to the Qur’an the final miracle performed by Allah was a
huge she-camel that he produced out of a rock.
Surah 7:73: “Indeed there has come to you a clear sign (the miracle of the coming out of a huge she camel from the midst of a rock) from your Lord.” (Hilali-Khan)
And Surah 17:59 gives us the reason why Allah stopped sending miracles anymore after he had miraculously produced the she-camel out of a rock.
Surah 17:59: “And We refrain from sending the Signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).” (Yusuf Ali)

As we can see, the word “Sign” in this verse denotes the visible and clearly observable miracle of Allah. The Sign or Miracle that Allah sent in this specific instant was a she-camel that was visible to the people of Thamud. The miracle was sent to open their eyes but they treated
the she-camel wrongly and killed her. After this incident, Allah decided not to send any more miracles in the future. What can we conclude by
the above words of Allah in Surah 17:59?


1. It shows that Allah has “stopped sending miracles.” This means that long before the coming of Muhammad, Allah has decided to stop
sending miracles. Hence, if the Qur’an is true, then Muhammad could
not have performed any miracle. Therefore, whenever Muslims proudly
claim that their Prophet performed many miracles, they are at the
same instant admitting that Allah lied in Surah 17:59.
2. It specifies Allah’s reason for not sending miracles. This verse states that Allah found it pointless to perform miracles “because the men of former generations treated them as false.” In other words, Allah has stopped sending miracles because people in the past did not
believe in them.
3. It shows in which period of time Allah made a decision to stop sending miracles.

More than twenty Qur’anic passages show that whenever Muhammad
was asked by his contemporaries to perform a single miracle, he either
remained silent or said that he could not do so because he was no
more than just an ordinary human being. The most explicit of these
passages is in
Surah 17:90-93:
They said, “We will not believe you unless you cause a spring to
gush out of the ground. “Or unless you own a garden of date palms
and grapes, with rivers running through it. “Or unless you cause
masses from the sky, as you claimed, to fall on us. Or unless you
bring GOD and the angels before our eyes. “Or unless you own a
luxurious mansion, or unless you climb into the sky. Even if you do climb, we will not believe unless you bring a book that we can
read.” Say, “Glory be to my Lord. AM I ANY MORE THAN A HUMAN MESSENGER?” (Khalifa)

We will now analyze Surah 17:59 once again but from a different point of view:
As a result of the above insolent act of the people of Thamud, Surah 17:59 testifies that Allah has now refrained from sending miracles. The Qur’an does not mention the time period when Prophet Salih was sent to the people of Thamud. But, we can say with certainty that it
must be BEFORE the time of Jesus Christ, because according to Muhammad himself, there were no prophets or apostles between the
time of Jesus and Muhammad. In other words, the only “Prophet” who
was sent after Jesus was Muhammad.

Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Hadith Number 5835: Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him)
as saying: I am most akin to Jesus Christ among the whole of
mankind, and all the Prophets are of different mothers but belong
to one religion and no PROPHET WAS RAISE BETWEEN ME AND JESUS.

The Hadith states that “no Prophet was raised between (Muhammad) and Jesus,” Therefore, Salih could not have been sent after the arrival of Jesus but before. Otherwise, it would place him between Jesus and Muhammad. Therefore, Allah must have stopped
sending miracles long before Jesus set foot on earth. Yet, the Qur’an admits that Jesus performed many miracles and it even describes some
of his miracles. Surah 3:49: And I (Jesus) heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah’s permission. (Shakir)

How can this be possible? This shows that Allah’s claim in the Qur’an
that he was the source behind the powerful works of Jesus is a lie. By
his own admission, Allah could not be the one who empowered Jesus
with miracles. He simply could not be the originator of Jesus’
miraculous works. Who then is the source of the miracles of Jesus?

Oh my. This is a damning observation. Yet some ignorant Muslims claim he performed miracles.

The one I find the funniest is that he split the moon in half , usually a challenge to Moses splitting the red sea.

If he split the moon in half why isn't this astronomical event not recorded by other civilisations at that time.

Lilimax:
The truth that Jesus is Lord and creator of the world is not revealed to all but to those that are approved of God; whereas it was hidden from those people that have been prepared for destruction on the last day. The choice remain yours.

aurenflani asked,"If Muhammad copied the bible why then do you worship Jesus and believed that he is your creator?"

Frist of all, He copied from the Gnostic "christains" an earlier attempt by satan's people to corrupt the scriptures and church from the inside, (today we have the word of faith movement, Jehovah withnesses, Mormons)
True christains declared the Gnostics heretics and they were cut off from the church.
Apparently, Mohammed continued from where they left off with a blend of paganism(kissing the black stone, circling the kaaba, bowing in the direction of the kaaba, etc.

If you want to knw why we believe in God the Father, Son and HolySpirit, all ONE God. And why we refer to Jesus as Son of God thereby one with the Father, then you are asking a theological question. It deserves that you create a topic and I and other Christians will educate you on that.

Lilimax:
Seems you were once deep into this religion ? My 6001 comments on Nairaland

Lol.
Deep enough to know its absolute NOnsense. Its a mixture of scriptures from the torah, gnostics and paganism(worship of the moon god, the evidence is still on their mosques- the crescent moon and star).

aurenflani:
No thanks for the correction that was followed with degradation.
I deliberately sighted that portion of the bible so as to make you see the mischieviouness that litters your "scholarship" of the Qur'an.

If you are a serious student of comparative religion, you know that all verses of the Qur'an are circumstantial revealed before, when or after an event. E.g the battle between the Byzantine christians and the fire worshipping Zoarastians.

Hello friend.
So Now you say,"If you are a serious student of comparative religion, you know that all verses of the Qur'an are circumstantial revealed before".

This is officially one of the worse defence I have heard in support of the qu'ran from a Muslim and yet you are half correct. I hope you can see the flaw in your argument.


Can you, apparently you can't.
Should I even continue with you.
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhzxfvvdv..
Here we go.

All things we do in life is circumstantial, so you are correct here. However, let's say you get to your car and the engine doesn't start, do you realize what the circumstance is?. It means your car is in need of repairs.

You can then decide to act like Mohammed, scream allauakbar and smash that car, throw stones at it, rip off the bumpers, tear the interior etc and say it has been revealed to me to destroy this car for allah or you can act like a normal human being and get a mechanic.

There is no such thing as,"circumstantial revealed". To start with I don't believe Mohammed is a prophet hence your "circumstantial revealed" argument is null and void. Any christain who has read even one chapter of the new testament and understand it will know Mohammed is a fraud.
Pls read one chapter infact read 2, Mathew and mark. They aren't long and they have several synoptic parallels. Read them objectively.


Mohammed and allah won't mind because Mohammed affirms the validity of the injeel. Your quran says;

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil) (Surah 5:46).

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong) (Surah 3:3).

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers (Surah 10:94-95; 16:43)

Change2015:
Stupid. Doesn't the constitution recognise traditional law from all parts of the federation? Isn't it supreme Court that just ruled that an igbo woman must be able to inherit her husbands landed property because the igbo traditional law was unacceptably discriminatory?

You are correct that igbo traditional law was discriminatory. However igbo traditional is not supported by a religion.
The religion of Islam accepts, condones and encourages child marriage. Everybody knows about Mohammed's "adventures" with 9 year old Aisha. As long as Muslims imitate Mohammed things like this will continue to happen.

INJESUSNAME:
what killed muhammad himself?

This information is not in the qu'ran so a lot of Muslims don't know how he died. But other Muslims literature and sources claim that he was poisoned by a Jewish woman who he murdered her family and still had the audacity to eat her Goat meat.

In my opinion Mohammed was a determined and smart man but this was the dumbest thing anyone could do. He and a fellower eat the meat the fellower died moments later, Mohammed spat out the meat perhaps even threw up, thereby reducing the effects of the poison. However, Mohammed still died 3 years later from the effects of the assasination attempt.
Most shi'a Muslims will confirm this.
So rat poisons in Islam didn't start today.

Fash20:
Continue reading shit and don't find better things to do with your life. Don't ever quote me again pls. I don't have time to waste on some brainwahed cyber fool.May Allah open your eyes and guide you to the right path. Don't think I cannot quote some violent verse from the Bible I don't just have your time...








Peace

Hello friend,
Christmas is tomorrow, how can you say something like," I don't have time to waste on some brainwahed cyber fool" in this season of joy.

Do you know Jesus warned my fellow Christians not to use that word, here let me show you its in Mathew 5:22,"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says,‘You fool!’will be liable to the hell of fire." I don't want you to go to hell fash20, ask the one true God for forgiveness and ask Jesus his son for mercy.

However you Muslims curse a lot and swear by allah. Mohammed forgot to mention this to you Muslims probably because of all the sex he was having with his Harem and all the assassination he was approving for his critics.

So you want to quote verses, apparently you feel I am like any Joe you find on the internet. I can defend my beliefs sufficiently. Most Muslims go to the old testament which Christians don't live under, because they just can't find any violence in the new testament, our new covenant with the one true God.

Pls quote them, It only still goes to show Mohammed is a false prophet since his commands in your qu'ran and his acts in the hadiths contradict virtually everything Jesus Christ who came 600 years before him and who(Jesus) warned as of false prophets came to do.

Please don't eat any christains "Christmas rice" tomorrow because the quran warns you that you should not take unbeliever and kufirs as friends, here let me show you,"Qur'an (5:51)-"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80)-"You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

Qur'an (3:28)-"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..." This last part means that the Muslim is allowed to feign friendship if it is of benefit. Renowned scholar Ibn Kathir states that"believers are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly."

Fash20:
I'll just advise you to stop reading shit.You cannot undastand the Holy Qur'an if u don't have what is called the knowledge of Qur'an. I was laughing at the way you ar just quoting the Holy Qur'an as if Qur'an is a book that sm1 with below zero IQ like you can comprehend. Refrain from quoting the Holy Qura'an out of contest don't let the wrath of Allah decend onto you.












Proudly Muslim.

Here you go again with low IQ comments.
Any objective person reading our conversation will instantly tell you are the one lacking in intellect, refusing to accept the truth about the falsehood of you quran after I have presented its evils and you can't even defend the religion you believe but only throw insults.

You say I quoted out of context, I challenge you to provide the contexts for the verses. Read them, its plain, don't go to your imam to reinterpret or dilute it for you.

sooner or later if you truly seek the truth, the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob will reveal it too you and liberate you from the moon god and falsehood.