₦airaland Forum

brocab:
The truth is any pastor from any church who preach on tithes, is not preaching or teaching the bible. Jesus said in Matthew 17-24, Those who receive the temple tax came up to peter and said: Does your teacher{jesus} not pay the temple tax? Peter said: yes, And when he had come into the house Jesus asked him saying: What do you think Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, Jesus said: from their own SON'S or from strangers? Peter said: to Jesus, From strangers," JESUS SAID:" THEN THE SON'S ARE FREE. If we are god's son's then we are free from tithing.

Am i expected to respond to this, or why exactly did you mentionquote me?

nannymcphee:
A little definition will be helpful

1. What does it mean to be materially wealthy?

2. The "physical riches" that Christ gave to us as Christians, who determines the level or amount of these riches, a Christian will have

Is it God or the individual based on his knowledge & understanding of this provision

3. If all Christians acquire this knowledge/understanding of the "physical riches" in Christ(by this I mean if they give equally, pray equally etc) will they all command the same amount of wealth

4.can you please state how one can strike a balance in the quest for material prosperity


Gombs, mbaemeka, Image123, bidam your input will be appreciated

most Christians who have believed this prosperity message, have this view that they must be mega rich, enjoy the best things of life

so answers to the above questions will help put things in the right perspective

1. To be materially wealthy is to have what you need physically in abundance. Paul said that God is able to do that, i believe him.
2. Physical riches and any other thing is determined by a combination of many factors, in this case, both God and the individual are involved. God may give you five talents, you make extra five or even fifteen, or make nothing, or even lose some of the start up five. Grace alone don't buy megabytes you have to buy that recharge card and load it.
3. Situation 3 is not possible, at least not this earth and time.
4. Strike a balance by being balanced of course. Let your moderation be known unto MEN, the Lord is at hand.

Candour:
If I call you double minded man now, you go begin shock like 'agbalumo'. I even predicted you'll soon change position and you fulfilled my prophecy in less than 30mins.

It's like queuing behind either prophet Elijah and prophet Saul na, lol. Both are prophesying but na prophet Elijah sure pass. Who can tell if you weren't breathing threatening and slaughter before you wrote that post until thankfully the Holy Ghost laid you down and made you prophesy till fellows ask, is Saul also among the prophets. i no fit say maybe you lay n.aked typing that post, na only you and God know that one, hahaha.
On a more serious note, you both were on the same wavelength as it were(but Bidam sure pass jare). You said prosperity is not a sin, prosperity should not be preached against, some people are natural prosperous. You quoted Matthew 5:45 showing GOD prospers everyone including sinners, fallen nature can negatively affect one's prosperity. Knowledge, hardwork, diligence etc can prosper a person ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. These were your points and i completely agree with them. Bidam said pretty much same (he said it better sha). He talks of an opposite extreme against prosperity, that shouldn't be. Says God's prosperity plan is available to ALL. He then defined prosperity in a sweet way. Told folks to stop bringing private eisegesis. Said any theology that enhances poverty without teaching biblical prosperity is demonic. These are what I'm for. Indeed, we can do nothing against the truth, i wish that could be said for all of us.

demisquare, the fellow who's eternally confused on who the bible is talking to. The bible is talking to you in case you still dunno. Well, you hardly addressed my post or point, failed to answer any of my questionS but demand that i answer yours, typical.
Your friend thinks Philippians 4:19 is just some man's random prayer, thankfully you think it is a guaranteed promise. Good for you and of you. i quoted Philippians and didn't say anything about wants, i wonder why you bring that up. i find it pathetic that you referred to Job's trial as his best time, weird fellow you. Prayer isn't an act of unbelief by the way. Prayer is asking, seeking and knocking. Read Jeremiah 29. i think around verses 10-15. Jesus said God will give to those that ASK Him(referring to the Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit was also promised i think.

Candour:
Taa.... go sidon for corner jare. If you don't comprehend easily, why you no go talk make I help you out?

It's Saturday morning, go and wash clothes or something, hahaha.

Bidam:
The truth of the matter is we should all provide emphasis on important Christian truths. I agree that there are preachers that go to the extreme on the message of prosperity but when "groups" rise to correct this overemphasis on prosperity it is unfortunate that in their attempts to correct they often veer of in the opposite extreme- they say because too much of this idea is offensive, let's get rid of it altogether. So on their part it is also wrong. Any christian theology that enhances poverty of saints without the teaching of biblical prosperity is actually demonic.Some folks even on this thread exhibited a shallow warped mentality by saying preachers are rich because they milk their members...well there might be some element of truth in that but to categorically make a blanket statement that all preachers are rich because of tithes and offerings collected from church coffers is a blatant lie from the pit of hell. Since the fellow is a pastor why is he not rich yet.

The truth of the matter is that some preachers are blessed more than other not because they depend on their members but because of the giving lifestyle they practised by following what the word of God says.

I noticed that majority of the folks attacking prosperity here are actually the same folks that are 'mouthing' we do not need healing. It has been done away with and the day of miracle is past in other threads.

They are the ones also attacking ministry gifts saying we don't need pastors and ministers any longer. God is going to use everyone equally.

Even when showed this truth in the bible they bring there own 'eisegesis' inferring what scripture never said. This is as a result of a christianity of convenience.They are not willing to pay the price to study like the berean with a noble attitude. They find it difficult to believe in glaring scriptural truths that God desires his people to prosper materially, maybe as a result of their incosistent walk with God or the "experiences" they had with the former churches they attended.

Paul said we can do nothing against the truth but for the truth. Truth does not change..it is that constant. Truth is no respecter of personsm nations,tribe or tongue..Jesus is truth, God is truth.

And this truth is God's prosperity plan is available for ALL. The prosperity package is available to everyone child of God but the sad part is it is not accessible to everybody.

Having your needs met is not prosperity, it is called welfare. Prosperity is not having money to feed yourself and children. It is not buying lands and building houses all over the place neither is it riding the latest jeep in town. This is the warped thinking of so many including those attacking prosperity.

Prosperity is being blessed in EVERY AREA OF LIFE so YOU CAN BE A BLESSING TO OTHERS.

Abraham is the biblical portrait of God's idea of a blessed man.

To people the bible says we should look unto is 1.Jesus 2.Abraham.

We are to look unto Jesus who is the author and the perfecter of our faith and we are to look unto Abrham the father of Faith.

This is my position updated, hehehe.

@candor
you said you were not interested in talking about tithes. i said you said so, don't let it increase your b.p.

nannymcphee:
No one says God does not provide materially, neither have I said you can't pray for it, after all Jesus said "give us our daily bread"

what I'm saying is, it isn't the right of the Christian to be wealthy, just because he had accepted chtist but it's God that determines who gets what & how much you get

So you are to be content with what you have while praying to him to increase you. Whether the increase comes or not, BE CONTENT WITH WHAT YOU HAVE

Nanny, when you say no one, recall that the OP says otherwise. i quote " Simply put, this egocentric gospel teaches that God wants believers to be materially wealthy." The OP describes encouraging prayer to God for material provisions as faulty theology. Well, except the OP is "no one". That Windowsx of a fellow also said " The error of the Prosperity Gospel is "God wants believers to be materially wealthy". What bible taught you that?" You yourself earlier said there is no direct promise of God providing wealth in the NT. You've being so so skeptical, yet you yourself are a product and testimony of God's material blessings. You wan solo the thing abi? No chance.
It is the right of every child of God to be holy, godly, healthy and wealthy. The price was paid and the promise severally made. Of course, it is God that determines whether an individual is saved, holy, godly, healthy or wealthy or whatever, in a sense.
For instance, this promise below is very new covenant and talks of material blessing.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

Candour:
@the bolded. You and others always insinuate and tag those who disagree with the so-called 'prosperity' gospel as suffering from poverty so if you're retracting that notion now, I'll note it for possible reference in future.

No one I know preaches against prosperity or called prosperity a sin. If anyone preaches that, they are wrong. Some are so lucky and fortunate that without thinking of prosperity or applying any fanciful principle, they land in it. Its the doing of God and apart from knowledge; hard work, smart work, diligence, tenacity etc also can make a man succeed according to the bible. Also living in this fallen world can make a man face unforseen circumstances that affect his lot in life despite his well laid out plans hence Solomon said the below

Ecclesiastes 9:11 KJV
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

If God blessed you with goodies, be grateful. He is the God that also favours atheists, satanists etc with the good things of life like health, wealth etc. Jesus even attested to this in the below

Matthew 5:45 KJV
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This is why we as Christians who have been favoured with the good things of life should endeavour to be blessings to those we come across as we journey through life.

On the tithe issue, na you mention am. I'm not interested in talking about the almighty 10%.

Just seeing this and it's largely my position. Na where the thread for end sef.
#But the last line shock me like agbalumo, Hahahaha. i remember when i said i wasn't interested in talking tithe and this same fellow was on my case as if it was his prerequisite to salvation. Time and chance.

WinsomeX:
^^^ Welcome to Nairaland Word of Faith confused thinking.

Truth is that the WoF seeks to redefine Christianity. They make a priority what the bible does not: wealth. So that to justify such warped thinking Image123 wants to know if I pray for material blessing. As if my doing so justifies prosperity teaching.

They also make little of the matter of sin, which scripture prioritize. They are actually confused in the position to take on it. While the likes of mbaemeka are of the COZA kind of grace where no matter what your sin, you cannot loose your salvation and no Christian who works a miracle can be cast in hell; Joagbaje and Gombs disagree with him. They take the traditional Pentecostal arminian view that Christians can loose their salvation. Then we have Image123 who has no position at all than to troll any thread that is critical of Bishop Oyedepo.

I remind my readers of Jesus' warning in Matthew 24, do not let anyone deceive you.

If you pray for God to bless you materially, you have no moral right to ask others not to teach that God blesses people materially. It is that basic. It seems the devourer has dealt unfairly to your common sense. Today is 17, make plans for end of the month tithe, lol. Oh you no get church sef, see me later.
Do you pray for material blessings? Is financial increase good news to the poor? Is healing good news to the sick?
i continue to find your breed of Christianity more dangerous than those your "nuggets", because you deceive sincere people with your form of godliness but daily deny the power thereof.

trustman:
Bankruptcy of the prosperity gospel. 

True biblical prosperity does not necessarily include monetary/financial wealth. 

"13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."
14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
15 And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."
- Luke 16: 13-15

Many today who are lovers of money and are like the Pharisees behave like them - they ridicule others who insist on the same position that Jesus held. 

The WoF movement and devotees overemphasize the place of money in the life of the believer. However, as Luke 16:15b states:
"For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."

The WoF teachings, (including the 'Prosperity gospel', whether that name is denied by their devotees on this thread or not), are built on faulty application of scripture and in many instances wrong view of what Christianity is all about. 

That is why scripture is usually twisted by them to suit what they want it to say. That is why also they can choose to interpret words the way they like, particularly to 'support' their stance at any point in time. 

One moment it can be 'God wants all to be rich financially!' the next moment that can turn to 'Riches can be in different dimensions!'. This minute they can say 'Jesus was very rich financially and even had to have a treasurer' and the next one it can be 'Jesus had to be poor to make us rich'. This way when a person queries one statement they quickly present the second as a proof that the questioner is wrong, pushing the fault always on others rather than themselves. When things are too 'hot' for them to handle they 'run for cover'. 

They claim to have, and are enamoured by, a 'revelation' knowledge on issues that even the Apostles who were given the blueprint for the church age did not have. They are the ones who have attained 'perfection' which the apostles and early church didn't achieve. 

It obviously takes a lot for a person to change a long-held view about a thing, particularly religion or spiritual things. 
But honesty demands that anyone who names the name of Christ will carefully examine whatever is presented to him in the light of the foundation already laid by the Apostles, rather than by a 'new' knowledge.

True biblical prosperity includes material wealth, it is in the package. While it is not primary, it would be a lie and ignorance to say otherwise. The primary gospel is the salvation plan and victory over sin, the world and satan. You should preach that, i don't see you guys preach the gospel ever. All i see are your constant hating, blind criticisms and ridiculous "nuggets" joyfully proclaiming the downfall of another. That is not christian, that isn't the gospel.
Being a lover of money is NOT the same thing as having money or being materially blessed. Let this saying sink into your head please. This is no new knowledge. i'm not interested in the issues of your life that you added to make your post bulky.

WinsomeX:
You have sounded here like a true protege of a prosperity church. You have not disappointed at all. If at your level you still cannot tell whom Christ was referring to in Matthew 24, you are part of the deceived.

Phillipians 4:19 was a prayer; a response to a sacrificial work of love in meeting the apostles needs. It was not "Holy Ghost Night" or "Night of Bliss" or Shiloh. It was not one man bellowing at the top of his voice at a congregation who are screaming Amen, claiming prophetic blessings.

The leading errors of Prosperity Gospellers and their children is taking one scripture out of context and building a doctrine and practice out of it. Go to Philippians 4 and find out, in context, the real reason for Paul's prayers. Incidentally, in Philippians 3, Paul left a word for the prosperity preacher:

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

I am wondering if Paul did not know that Christians will ask God to provide for their material needs when he wrote the above.

i didn't mention or refer to Matthew 24, i talked about the Lord's prayer. The Lord's prayer is a model prayer for anybody in any age and dispensation. i hope you're not attempting to cut it out of the bible as usual?
Philippians4:19 clearly states that God shall supply all your needs according to His riches through Jesus. Material needs are part of ALL needs. If it wasn't God's will, was the verse lying?
You've typed a lot of bunkum and other irrelevant stuff, stay on point and stop acting possessed.

WinsomeX:
The error of the Prosperity Gospel is "God wants believers to be materially wealthy". What bible taught you that?

I know. You will quote the Old Testament to me. You, however, refuse to acknowledge that it is "old" and that the covenant we run today is a new one; and in the new nothing is said about God wanting believers to prosper materially.

The prosperity gospel start with a leaven called "God wants believers to be materially wealthy" and eats into the soul of the gospel the Christian believes until he is an unbelieving "believer" bound for hell.

If what you mean by prosperity gospel includes that God blesses and heals today, and wills so. Yes, the bible teaches so. Philippians 4:19 for instance is not shy or afraid of material supply, neither is the Lord's prayer.

WinsomeX:
Forgive my next statement but it is necessary:

The ministry of the following men in Nigeria: David Oyedepo, Chris Oyakhilome, Enoch Adeboye, and others like them have come to be known as Prosperity Teaching ministries. Among Pentecostals in this country, these men command more than half the following. If, and I am using these word very circumspectly, if the prosperity gospel is a false gospel as many allege, I want readers to know that a great number of so called Christians are heading to hell, along with the Pastors aforementioned.

It will be good for all of us, in the light of Jesus and Paul's words, to know what we believe. What a man preaches is able to save or damn him and his hearers.

Abeg go and sit down jare, who knows if you're the fellow Jesus was warning folks about. Have you ever asked God to provide for you materially?

trustman:
For starters:


Then this:

Indeed, " God wants believers to be materially wealthy. I see it in my bible". That is the point. Like every doctrine and teaching, there is an abuse, misuse and false teaching concerning that. But to insinuate or blatantly and ignorantly insist that God is not interested in providing for us materially, and then going behind to acquire and even pray for anything material is a delusion of the spirit, soul and body.

Harwo:
Apostle Paul spoke about his infirmity as being the reason he did not marry. I think counselling couples should include crucial issues like these.

Where you get this fake news?

trustman:
You're missing the point of the OP.
Go back and read carefully.

What is the point, you that has read carefully?

trustman:
You're missing the point.

What is the point?

You were not a busy person when you were making unfounded and unguarded claims. Now for you to prove your claims by simply listing just 20 out of 41000, you're suddenly busy. Stop making false statements if you're too busy to defend them. Your link hardly mentioned/listed 41000 different denominations and the page says it can't be verified.
From your quote, eastern orthodoxy's method of salvation is " The Orthodox Church teaches that through baptism into Christ's death, and our death unto sin in repentance, with God's help we can also rise with Christ into heaven, healed of the breach of our fallen nature and restored to God's grace.
To Orthodox Christians, this process is what is
meant by "salvation"
Almost every church says pretty much that to the best of my knowledge. If you have anything substantial that says otherwise, it's good you produce it. Show us 20 different methods of salvation from the alleged 41000 different methods of salvation. Thanks.

i continue to find it strange and near mysterious that people kick against God blessing people materially or financially, yet they themselves hope and pray for material and financial blessings. Abi provision no be blessing again? Folks are barking the wrong tree, seriously.

sukkot:
you do err not knowing the scriptures. you think God will personally come and bring the plagues himself ?

proverbs 16 vs 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. <<< he created the wicked people on earth like soros and bill gates for the day of evil when he will use them to bring evil on people with plagues or wars

amos 3 vs 6 shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? <<< shall there be ebola in africa and the Lord hath not done it ? ebola is evil

isaiah 45 vs 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. <<< he creates evil

deuteronomy 28 vs 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

How could i forget, you are buzgee or obadiah or something. Never mind.

davien:
how do you know when you haven't reviewed the evidence....? [url] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations [/url]

i don't need a wiki link. You said there are 41000 different ways to salvation. i said list just 20 of those 41000 ways.

sukkot:
africa is where it was created and tested. no western or arab nations will let you open up a lab in their countries creating deadly viruses except africa. the patent of ebola belongs to george soros and bill gates. so the reason why it is mucho mucho in africa is because it is the creating ground and the testing ground. however now it is tested and has been seen to work they will start spreading it all around. dont worry it will get to the middle east and europe. we got first taste because our govts are corrupt and would allow anything to be done in our backyard. maybe someone in our govt pocketed a billion dollars so they could have their labs in africa

You said it was a plague from God on the carnal and defiled, now it's Soros and Gates.

davien:
*gasp* perhaps you do not understand my point.....most of the 41000 denominations have different methods towards "salvation" and other things

That is a lie. Kindly list 20 different methods of salvation out of the 41000. Thanks.

BigBashiru:
I am calling on all nairaland believers to pray for the following points; if you dont pray, you will live to regret it!

1.) That the FGN should decide after the first 13million Mastercard linked IDs, to just make us national ID cards only; we do not want the multi-purpose card of the anti-christ for the next 10 years.
2.) We do not want bank verification numbers and finger print authorization for transactions; already from mar 2015, for transactions valued at 100m without BVN you will not be able to transact; let us ask God for the frustration of this plan. We are happy with just NUBAN. FGN can have finger prints no problem; but not the one that we cant buy or sell without BVN.
3.) If prayer points 1 and 2 cannot be answered, that the rapture should happen quickly!

Oh common, you're kidding right? Live to regret wetin? abegi. We for kukuma send it to 10people and watch what will happen in 7days na.
While christians MUST be watchful and prayerful, there is no excuse to live in fear and ignorance. Government policies are government policies. You reasonably advocate for or against them through the right quarters, not by conspiracy theories. It's worse when you link or twist them to some bible spirituality. The antichrist isn't here yet, neither is he a cause for panic NOW.

sukkot:
yup Ebola is part of it. the ebola thing is a plague from God. its part of the warfare from God on the carnal and defiled.

deuteronomy 28 vs 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

and the signs can never lie my bros, this is how the ancients recieved message from God

Sickness in general is on earth because of sin, but Ebola is not warfare from God. Sierra Leone and Liberia are not any more carnal than the Middle east, Europe or South Africa that were not hit. The fellows that died are not more carnal and defiled as the corrupted leaders and pornographic harlots all over. Don't get it twisted, except you repent, you'll likewise perish.

Rhymeyjohn:
Please house, am in a dilemma, the entrance exam for the course I intend to do at UNILAG falls a day before my seminar defense in another school in the south east. I obviously cannot make it to lagos, please what can I do?

urgent help please

would those that miss the exam still be considered?

You can be in Lagos but it may cost money. Be well prepared for your defense, travel to Lagos and write your exam. Then travel back from exam center to east. Unilag is very close to the park where you board transport to the east. With God, there should be no complications. You'd arrive the east late or even your defense venue late, but late is better than never, and you can explain to your current school lecturers/setup.

Yomieluv:
Anybody that uses God's name to swear by trying to prove him/herself to me,I run.

Born again has ceased to exist since first testament,what we have now are just church goers.

Imagine,my Ex,after several rounds of sex at home,got to church to lead the praise,and worship songs,funniest things,she was crying while singing.

I was like WTF,no be Theresa be this again?

To me,born again do not exist.

Your ex is not a representative of all christians.

dp

DaWorshiper:
probably she was crying out of repentance and a broken heart for what she did. Don't judge people's actions sha, until u know their motives. Somebody that u may b looking at as a sinner today bcuz u caught him or her in one wrong doing yestday, may hav confessd to God and b forgiven immediately after d act yestday. jUDGE NOT bro, na only God know everythin.

That is where restitution comes to play. True repentance involves her restituting with her former sin partner.

davien:
calm down image123.......
i'm not merely insinuating things....just telling you the facts...
" As there are reported to be approximately 41,000
Christian denominations "
[url] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations [/url]

ALL I'M MERELY ASKING IS HOW IS THE "TRUE FAITH" DETERMINED...!

The existence of 41000 denominations as alleged is not an issue. There may as well be 41000 universities or secondary schools. It don't mean that 1+1 has 41000 different answers. That is what you're insinuating.

Xcapist:
These ones say this is how it's done, others would say NO! That's not true. Makes you wonder why since they claim to be using the same bible... Anyways they say it's the holy ghost that does the interpretation and again that makes you wonder if the holy ghost has multiple personality issues for revealing different things to different sects

The hand is 'slightly' different from the leg, they're still part of the body. People don't have equal level of understanding on any issue. Put two professors under the same teacher for one hour, same time. They would not give the exact same answers if tested or questioned. They won't get the same mark. Yet they both passed and are both professors. The fundamentals of the Christian faith are most important.