₦airaland Forum

Kay 17: Very frail argument.

My attention was caught by your absurd concept of justice. Ordinarily wrongdoing deserves punishment, and the purpose of punishment is nominally to purify the wrongdoer, exemplified by the acceptance of guilt. Neither can there be a genuine punishment without both the presence of wrongdoing and guilt.

In the Flood story, God willingly separated Noah from the rest of the world, on the account of his righteousness and innocence. There is no better explanation for Noah's salvation, God seeing himself as a moral judge, capable of adjudicating and dish out punishment.

Also if Justice is centred round a wrongdoer, wouldn't the purpose be defeated without the wrongdoer? Of what benefit is it, to pass on the guilt to an innocent, thereby triggering a vicious cycle of justice

i have read your pos twice and had to wonder if it truly is directed to me.Are you aware that it was Amalek that was been punished, and not a bunch of innocents(whatever that means)?

mazaje: Image and his twisted and sick logic truly believe that unbelievers and their kids deserve to die, he calls it judgement and justice meted on them by god. . .I hope that muslim jihadist kill image or his kids some day so that he will also test allah's justice for his unbelief. . .Allah is the only true judge and image must test his justice for being an unbeliever. . .I hope the jihadist kill your kids someday, then we will want you to come here and defend some kind of wired and sick form of justice that only you and your sick mentality understands. . .You are a sick human being. . .

mazaje hope it is well? You do not sound like yourself, just saying. You didn't manage to skip my frequently stating that God wants all humans to live in love. Hypocrites usually gnash their teeth in anger when they read my type.

double post

shdemidemi: This particular verse was actually speaking about the law of Moses. The law of Moses is weak in that it cannot save anyone, what made the law weak? The flesh/sin nature. If there was no sin nature there won't be a law in the first place.

What did Christ do through his death?
Romans 6

3)do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

As a believer of Christ, we died with him, we were buried with him and we rose with him. Now, if we are in Christ we cannot be condemned by the law, Paul also made it clear in chapter 3 that this gospel he is teaching is apart from the law.

It is talking about the law in general. No law can save us, that is the very point of the passage. Even if we obey thou sahll love thy neighbour, or thou shall pray without ceasing, or thou shall rejoice in the Lord always, or thou shall bless your enemies and pray for them that use you, or whatever law may be found in the NT, they cannot and will not save you. For all the law is summed up in two, thou shall love God, nd thou shall love thy neighbour. The good news is that our justification and righteousness is by faith, not by obeying any law, whether Mosaic, Pauline or Peteric.

shdemidemi: Paul didn't just bring the law of sin and death from the blues....He had talked about it in chapter 7, he also talked about what brought about the law/principle of sin and death.

Romans 7
.......For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

If we all look properly we will see Paul did not just come up with the issue of sin and death in chapter 8.

i never said that Paul brought up sin and death from the blues or that this is the first mention. If you read what i had posted earler in the thread, you would see that i had earlier talked about sin and about death. It is nowhere implied or stated that Paul just came up with the issue of sin and death in chapter 8

We can never take it that the law is bad because it came from God. But, as good as the law is it needs to be applied on man. The law was weak in that it was only there to nail an offender, it was there to condemn, it was there to reveal sin and kill.

All these has already been stated in this same thread.

Like you rightly said there was sin and death in the world but it was not accounted or imputed for there was no law to nail man.
Romans 5
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 4
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

In other words sin and death reigned but it could not be imputed until law came.

So you know that i had already said this? So what is the issue?

One thing we must understand is that Adam was made in the image of God but you and I were made in the image of Adam. Adam was good before the fall but I have come to this world with the DNA of Adam. When Paul talks about sin most of the time, he is talking about a sin nature we inherited from Adam. The sin nature is the propelling force that controls our members/flesh. When we come into Christ there is a new force, a righteousness nature that propel us to do the will of God just the same way the sin nature use to control us.

Paul will then say with my mind (new man, spirit) I serve the law of God but with my members I remain a man so I serve the law of sin(Adamic nature)

Agreed and already stated.

shdemidemi: A Christian cannot walk in the flesh bro..that is impossible.

You read at the end of the previous chapter where Paul talked as a believer, he said


24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is a new man that serves the law of God within us, the new man propels our flesh to walk according to the dictates of God.

Do your research properly, the original manuscript stops at 'there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus' full stop.

The book of revelation does not have anything to do with the Holy Spirit, You won't find Holy Spirit.


When you are in Christ Jesus it is the walk of God no more your walk/ work.

The Corinthian christians had some of them that were walking in the flesh, that were carnal.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Paul often exhorted christians not to walk in the flesh but in the Spirit. It would be a needless exhortation if carnality was impossible. Not every christian is like Paul. Paul was giving HIS experience. Your talk about Revelation having nothing to do with the Holy Spirit is simply ridiculous i would not even comment further.

thehomer: Actually, it is implied that God's flood made no difference with respect to evil. You're clearly being facetious here because we've been talking about making a difference with respect to evil. Pointing out that God killed a lot of people isn't a point in God's favour you know. Yet you laugh.

The flood was not sent to wipe out evil, if you cannot take in that simple fact, good luck to you. You cannot force a primary purpose on another's action and then claim that the person failed. What you need to do is find out the purpose instead of baseless assumptions.

I never said criminals shouldn't be jailed. Which of your questions have I been avoiding? You should first help yourself think before trying to help me. Where have I said that e.g sending someone to jail makes no difference? Your assertions here are merely based on your strawmen.

You said that it was pointless of God to punish the people with the flood seeing that they would not change. i simply threw it across to you as putting you in similar shoes/circumstances. You believe criminals should be punished, but you have a problem with God punishing criminals. Where is the consistency?

I know I did. This God that commands that children be killed for their parents crimes is good and just? Then you're subscribing to a perverted sense of justice but are refusing to see it.

Mine is based on moral reasoning. You've just admitted that morality is relative and cemented it with that aphorism. Based on that, God is in no position to judge since as you've pointed out, one man's poison may be another man's food.

i'm not just saying that God is good as an attribute. Understand me perfectly, i am saying that God is what good is, God is the definition of good. i also have not said that good is relative, but that good acts are. What is good to do for this person A may not be good to do for person B. Whatever God does is good. What is moral reasoning, and who is in charge of its standard?

How do you know that is God's plan? After all, he has had babies killed in the past and that was fulfilling his purpose. Who are you to now declare what his real purpose is? Are you God?

God's purpose for creating man is expressly revealed in the Bible. It is that man should have dominion, and that we should glorify Him. If you need scriptures that say that, i will show.

Frankly it looks like you're not even reading what I'm writing while you ask irrelevant questions. Where did I imply that it was wrong to inherit objects? Which question did I avoid? Does having a next of kin mean that this next of kin can be killed if I commit a crime? It looks like you're the one who is merely confused about what is at stake here.

Let me state it clearly. Inheriting objects is different from punishing one person for the crimes of their parents. Or to rephrase, inheriting a shoe is different from a 6 month old baby being killed because their father killed another person. Hopefully, you can see the difference between these two events.

Well, you said that you had issues with one being rewarded for what the ancestors had done. Actually, that is the whole idea of an inheritance or next of kin. That all your fortunes, savings, pension and wealth be passed on to a particular person or group in case you died. Humans want that, and nature does that. You inherit what they call hereditary traits, you inherit nationality, wealth or poverty, a name, hiv etc. This is very much consistent with how God deals with humans. He rewards the children of the righteous with favour and blessing, like in the case of Abraham and David. He rewards the children of the unrighteous with punishment like in the case of Amalek and sinful Israelites before captivity. But He has a caveat which i have shown you. If the children/next generation change their ways, God changes what He planned to give them. i have shown you how Amalek consistently offended Israel and Israelites for different generations, INCLUDING the generation that received the punishment. The actions of others in the society and the leadership will definitely affect the rest in the society, that is reality anywhere and time. If you think the corruption and frivolity of current leadership has no effect or should have no effect on the masses, its high time you moved to Mars.

I said no because your question was irrelevant to what is being discussed. What has a 6 month old baby done that it deserves to be killed? That is the question you're supposed to answer. Claiming that God decided that with his foreknowledge and omniscience means we can also question whether or not God actually wanted the other numerous genocides to occur. Otherwise you're merely making a fallacious argument from ignorance. If you do not know why God ordered that these children be killed, then you cannot say that he gave that order for a good reason.

Is it okay for the old ones to be killed, i mean the old amalekites, older than 6month or whatever pity age you come up with?

How do you know he won't say so? He has said so in the past. Or has God changed?

Because His Word says so.
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
God who spake by the prophets like Moses and Samuel has in these time spoken by His Son Jesus. His Son Jesus has told us to love everyone, including enemies. To pray for them, to be pitiful, to be courteous, to honour all men. He has told us that we are all one in Him and that there is no Jew or Gentile discrimination again, that He has broken the middle wall of partition, and died for us when we were enemies. He does not want anyone to perish but has offered humanity a new agreement/covenant.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

For a judge to be just, he is bound by the concept of justice. For a person to be moral, he is bound by the concept of morality. Judges are in fact bound to be just. That is why we can say that a certain judge's actions are unjust or immoral.

Your argument borders on God having no right to judge. It centred on yourself having equal right to do as He has done. that is why i had to remind you that there are things that a judge can do that others cannot do. The Judge is empowered to punish in a way that others cannot. God is just in every punishment He has given.

FrostyZonn: What did you meant by the law of sin??

A law that states that you must sin, having the nature of sin.

ATMC: ...and prolly decide to live by grace afterwards hehehehe

Amen and amen.

thehomer: Are non-Christians invited?

hehehehe, of course. We'll sit next to each other all through this convention by grace.

I depends on if you are free from the law of sin.

shdemidemi: Your second verse, what law brought sin and death?

Sin and death is a law, as Paul wrote, and as it has already being explained.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There was sin and death before what you would love to call the law.

JesusisLord85: Just what are you even trying to say here? Here is a book about what must take place. Are you saying because you do not read "holy spirit", we should add this to shdemidemi's list of books we should tear out of our bible?

Bidam: So are you using your flesh to serve the law of sin like that Coza pastor involve in a sex scandal?

Hmnn! Oya teach me a level of grace that i don't understand.

shdemidemi: Today's church definitely have issues, some issues similar to the issues in Corinth but most issues are relative considering the sorry state of the city both in paganism and the presence of brothels. The city of Corinth was actually known for prostitution the same way las Vegas is known for casinos today. We can't underplay the fact that this Corinth church were spiritual babes and Paul spoke to them as such.

We have churches like the Thessalonian church, Paul was so proud with this church. We can actually learn a lot from what this church did to merit a position in the good books of the apostle.

If today's church has issues, according to you. It follows that they should learn from the epistles that were written to churches that had issues. All the epistles are relevant to us, whether Thess. or Cor. or Tim. i do not understand on what authority you are telling us to dismiss the two books of Corinthians.

The letter to Timothy is very important to us because Paul already envisaged the possibility of his demise and martyrdom. He was passing the mantle to a son he trusted on how everything concerning the faith and the church should be conducted. This book and other doctrinal books is very important for the church and Paul knew this as well hence he instructed Timothy in 2 Timothy to commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

All scripture is inspired and very important. The letter to Timothy does not erase the truths shared in Corinthians. Paul's wish was that the epistles be shared and read by all believers, though it was primarily written and addressed to a particular location.
1Co 1:2 Un[b]to the church of God which is at Corinth[/b], to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
The epistle, according to this verse is written to;
- The church in Corinth,
- To them that are sanctified,
- To all that in every place call upon Jesus.

Joagbaje: It was in the bible also that paul didn't marry , and he Recomended wine for Timothy , does that make it a christian doctrine ?

Is it unchristian teaching? It is christian teaching.
1Co 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
1Co 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
Marriage is honourable in all, however there is nothing wrong if one chooses to be unmarried. This what the Bible teaches.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

Also it is okay to recommend something that will help one's health. This is good christian teaching. The Bible encourages using medicine when we are sick.
1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
All scripture is profitable.

You made good point but It was customary for married women to be covered . Just like the Alhaji wives called "eleha" in the Muslim world . But the passage in question was dealing with customary issue . A married woman covers her head on public as a custom . It doesn't apply to girls .

1 Corinthians 11:7
. . but the woman is the glory of the man.[/quote]i'm not making points, i'm telling you what is in the Bible. It is not my duty to enforce it to be done, or condemn anyone for not doing it. But we are having a discussion, and what i have said is what is in the Bible. i do not know where you are getting what you are saying. The passage is quite clear, and this is not a Arab city. It is a greek city. The passage talks about EVERY man, and about EVERY woman. It didn't limit it to any arabian culture or custom. It talked about angels when he was giving this teaching. This shows that this is something that is not just local.

Pvictor10: Check the scriptures where Paul mentioned this, he was referring to married woman earlier. It doesn't apply to unmarried. U free to uncover your head in church if u r not married, but if you are married, and do that, u dishonour your husband.

So, you are saying that married women should cover their heads when they pray and prophesy?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is therefore now no condemnation. NOW! No condemnation. There was condemnation before, but for those who fulfil the two conditions stated, there is NOW no condemnation. The two conditions are;
1. To be in Christ Jesus.
2. To walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh.
One can be IN Christ Jesus and be walking in the flesh. One can be in Christ Jesus and be walking in the Spirit. The Bible severally exhorts CHRISTIANS to walk in the Spirit. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ who walk after the Spirit. There is condemnation for those in Christ who walk after the flesh. Even Jesus condemned those who were walking in the flesh in His letter to the seven churches in Revelation.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law has made me free from the law. This is why there is NO CONDEMNATION. For, Because the law hath made me free from the law. i'm emphasizing these because this book (Romans) is not teaching us to disobey or disregard the Old Testament Scriptures. From chapter one till now, we have seen the writer use the Old Testament scriptures to prove his points, and affirm his teachings. He has even in recent chapters used adorable and lovable adjectives to describe the law. The law is good and holy and just. Do we make void(pointless, invalid, annulled, cancelled, null and void, negated, useless) the law? God forbid!
So, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of Moses? Not what is said. What is said is that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. There is a law of sin and death on every man. It is the law of ALL have sinned. Every one obeys this law, and the wages of sin is death. So, automatically, sin and death go hand in hand. All are under the law of sin and death. They must sin, they have sinned. There must be a weakness. If its not fornication, it is drunkeness, if not, stealing, or lying, or anger, etc. That's the law of sin and death. That an individual must obey one sin or the other. But thank God. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free. i'm free. This knowledge sets you free. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. The truth is that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free. Many people do not know this truth. The devil will do anything to keep you from knowing this truth. That you can be free from sin, and sinning.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

What the law could not do! This 'the law' is not referring to the law of sin and death. It's referring to the law generally. That is what we often limit as the Mosaic laws. The law is good,and holy, and perfect. But it had/has its function. There is something that the law could not do. The law could not take away sin. Infact, it was not made or meant to take away sin. The law was given for transgression, to show us our sins. We have already considered this. The law is like a mirror. A mirror shows you yourself. It cannot clean you. That's the law. It was made to show you how dirty you are. You cannot take a mirror and begin to clean yourself, it would probably wound you even. The Bible compares hearing God's Word as/to looking at a glass(mirror).
The law could not make one righteous, and still cannot. It could not condemn and destroy sin. But God sent Jesus to condemn and destroy sin.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is good and righteous, and God wants the righteousness of the law to be fulfilled in us. The gospel is not only that Christ has fulfilled the righteousness of the law. That in itself is wonderful, good news.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
But God's goal is to make us little christs(Christians). As He is, so are we in THIS world. God sent His Son, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. Us, who walk after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

You are either after the flesh, or after the Spirit. You might be a christian and still be after the flesh. That is, you might claim to be born again, be a church worker or preacher, and still be walking in the flesh. Those in the flsh mind the things of the flesh. They are more consumed by fleshly things. One practical way to overcome the flesh is to not feed it. That is to put it under, like Paul says. When you are continually exposed to bad music, or bad pictures, or bad words, you are feeding the flesh. Do not be deceive, evil communications corrupt good manners. Bad bad things are on the media(radio, tv, internet etc). A christian needs to be careful, because these are the things that make the old man strong. Even when you think you have crucified it/him, he will come down from the cross, as it were. It's only a matter of time. But they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Being spiritually is not by confession or saying so. It is by doing so. They that are after the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The problem with being after the flesh is that one becomes carnally minded. The carnal mind is NOT subject to the law of God. Are you carnal minded? Most people will say "Of course not". Okay, are you subject to the law of God? I am not under the law would not suffice. The carnal mind is not subject to the law of God. It cannot even be. It is the spiritual mind that can be. And the carnal mind is enmity against God. It is one thing, though foolish, not to believe in God or regard Him. But what would we say of a person who is in enmity against God? He is hostile to God, and to His Word, for whatever good reason(everyone has a good reason BTW).

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

They that are in the flesh cannot please God. This is final. This is how deadly carnality is. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, marvel not that I say unto you, You MUST be born again. He cannot see the Kingdom of God. He cannot please God. Take him anywhere, let him do anything. Give him all the education in the world, and make him one of the great and bright minds in the globe. Give him skill and fame, and vote for him even. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. How often do we walk in the Spirit? You are either walking in the spirit or in the flesh.

shdemidemi: ^^^You have only succeeded in relaying your religous views bro.

The bottom line is that this church had problems, they had written to Paul about these issues they had in the church. They had problem with brethren bringing pagan ideologies into the church, they had segregation between the rich and the poor in the church, they had issue with the the brothels and prostitute nature of the city which was rubbing off the women in the church etc.Paul was writing back to them to deal with their profane issues and at the same time teach them about how to conduct themselves around this corrupt city of Corinth.
1 cor 7:1
Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me

Covering of hair or not covering of hair has got absolutely nothing to do with our faith or how we conduct ourselves in church.

Paul spoke to Timothy on how we (Christians) should conduct ourselves in church.
1 Tim 2:8
8 I desire therefore that the men(male and female) pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

And today's church does not have issues? What are you saying? Why not tell how what i have said is wrong instead of all the excuses you have put up. An epistle to a church is not to the church, but an epistle to a man(timothy) is to the church. Where did you get such a thing?

thehomer: I've already shown you what you and the Bible are saying. You both agree that God killing all those people won't make a difference yet he did it anyway. That is just God being an uncaring killer.

i do not agree, neither does the Bible, nor was it implied that God's flood made no difference. Making a difference is not the same as wiping away evil. At least you know that it made a difference in census
Do you think that criminals should not be punished because they would not change? please answer, you have been avoiding my questions. i'm trying to help you think. Like if you met a serial r.apist or murderer for instance, and he told you he is not going to change, or you somehow know that he is not going to change. Is it better to leave him unpunished, since it would not 'make a difference'?

What is good and what is your own basis for your idea of good?

Hehehehehe, you threw back my question to me. God is good. The Bible is my base.
Psa 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
So, what is yours? BTW, good acts are relative, one man's poison may be another's food.

It shows that according to your God and the ideas you're presenting here, someone who kills children is an altruist.

Nope, God's plans for giving babies is not to have them killed. Someone who killS children is not fulfilling the purpose of God. God has put man(all humans) on earth to have dominion and to glorify Him. Babies are supposed to grow into godly men and women, showing forth the praises of God and fulfilling purpose. Like Jesus and Paul said, "I have finished my course". There is work to be done. It's like plucking off a fruit before it ripens so that you avoid disease and damage for the fruit. The purpose why it was planted is then defeated. It is meant to ripen and then be very useful.

I didn't say it was wrong to inherit things, I said it is wrong to deliberately punish children for their parents crimes. e.g it is wrong to kill a 6 month old child because their father killed someone else.

you implied that it is wrong to inherit things. Again you avoided my question, do you have a next of kin? Perhaps you saw what i was getting at. i said it is God's nature and character, and even nature's character, to reward children with what their parents have done, whether they did well or not. God rewarded Abraham's children for instance, for deeds Abraham did. Same goes for David, and others. These are popular and easy examples that i gave. But we know that there is a clause which i showed you in Ezekiel. If a good person's children are bad, the chain of reward is cut, and vice versa. This helps us to logically conclude that Amalek's children did not change or repent. If they did, God would have spared them. A poor man passes on poverty to his children, so also does a rich man pass on wealth to his children. If you think that is unfair, well i wonder your basis for that. But the poor man and rich man's children can still manage one way or the other to influence and change things. All through scriptures, Amalek is in bad light, busy warring with and seeking to destroy Israel. they didn't change. If you know the story well, of King Saul's encounter with them. They had a evil king Agag. He had a descendant Haman who tried to exterminate the Jews in the book of Esther.
Jdg 3:13 And he gathered unto him the children of Ammon and Amalek, and went and smote Israel, and possessed the city of palm trees.
Num 14:45 Then the Amalekites came down, and the Canaanites which dwelt in that hill, and smote them, and discomfited them, even unto Hormah.
Jdg 6:3 And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them;
Jdg 7:12 And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude.
Jdg 10:12 The Zidonians also, and the Amalekites, and the Maonites, did oppress you; and ye cried to me, and I delivered you out of their hand.
1Sa 30:1 And it came to pass, when David and his men were come to Ziklag on the third day, that the Amalekites had invaded the south, and Ziklag, and smitten Ziklag, and burned it with fire;
1Sa 30:4 Then David and the people that were with him lifted up their voice and wept, until they had no more power to weep.

These are different instances and generations where the Amalekites were a continually pain in the neck for Israel. God was unhappy with other nations too, even with Israel, but if they repented, He always forgave them. So, they inherited a debt of punishment from previous generations, and they themselves were wicked, Agag their king being chief. They were not the innocent folk you portrayed them as. They had long being under watch before their punishment came.

No but this is irrelevant. Let me make it even simpler. I said if God is killing children for what their parents did, why is it wrong for humans to kill children for what their parents did?

See, you said NO. You realise the difference between a judge/executioner and other humans in serving judgment. But you refused to see the difference between God(the Judge of the whole earth) and every other person.
Like i've explained to you, God did not just kill them for what their ancestors did, but for what they themselves did. And with the foreknowlegde and omniscience that they were due for judgement and hopeless.

I'm sorry but all you're showing here is that you have no idea of what the discussion on morality is. You're basically saying that it is right to kill a group of children if God says so.

i have also emphatically told you that God would not say so?

What I'm wondering is how you manage not to understand what the idea of morality entails. You say God is a person who is moral but isn't bound by the idea of morality. This is just self contradictory because for him to be moral, it means that he is bound by the ideas of morality.

i have explained to you that He is not bound in the sense that He is Judge. just like the Judge is not bound in punishing an offender, as other citizens may be bound.

dagr8: [font=tempus sans itc] Thank you very much bro...your point is on point...

but lemmie also emphasis some points...

1. The passage never talked about a woman covering her hair...it says cover head

It is implied and common sense that when you cover your hair, you have covered your head. Like we call or speak of headgears, headdress, head-ties and headphones. these are all words we use. they do not necessarily have to cover the eyes and nose to be referred to as head covering. Safety helmets and crash helmets protect and cover the head, we do not say they are protecting our hair.

2. if the Bible says cover your head and also says in 1 Cor 11:15 dat your hair is given to cover your head....then i think we don't need to waste time elongating dis issue.

If we have enough grace, we should not see it as an issue to trash out before doing simple and straight forward things written in the Bible.
[color=#990000]1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
The literal rendition is "for a covering", which is slightly different from "as a covering". The hair is given her naturally for her to cover it. In such understanding, we easily align with the straight forward meanings of the rest of the passage. We cannot discard about 10 verses that have plain meaning because of one verse that has more than one meaning depending on how it is read.

3. I Corinthians 11:5 is an analogy.....hmmmm...read again

KJV I Corinthians 11:5: " But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head:for that is even all one as if she were shaven" ( emphasis by dagr8 )

Where her head in d first instance equals to her husband, according to I Corinthins 11:3

I Corinthais 11: 6 ( World Bible Translation)- " If a woman does not cover her head, then it is the same as cutting off all her hair. But it is shameful for a woman to cut off her hair or to shave her head. So she should cover her head." ( emphasis by dagr8 )

I believe this is not a new bone of contention in the body of Christ...

i'll tell you what analogy is. Where is the sanity, the logic and the analogy in leaving the hair uncovered if it is the glory of the woman?
1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
If a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her.
The man is the glory of God(v7)
The woman is the glory of the man(v7)
The hair is the glory of the woman (v15)
God's glory should be revealed/uncovered- This is symbolized by the man's head being uncovered.
Man's glory should be covered- This is symbolized by covering the woman's head.
Woman's glory should be uncovered has it is to cover man's glory- Your interpretation of verse 15 paraphrased.
[size=12pt]WHAT IS THE LOGIC OR SPIRIT, WISDOM OR ANALOGY IN THAT?

Joagbaje: Covering the hair was not a christian doctrine but rather a customary thing.. It was like the wedding ring of our day.

Hair covering or head covering, which is the same thing in context, is not just custom but Bible teaching. We may want to give reasons and excuses for not observing it. But one cannot lie openly and suggest that it is not in the Bible. i want to believe that what is in the Bible is christian doctrine and teaching. Corinth was a greek city, not even Arab or mid-east. it was a chief commercial centre in Greece that rivalled Athens. It is not like the wedding ring of your day. It is a practice that the Holy Ghost through Paul told the church to practice, like the holy Communion which was talked about in the same chapter.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
They were ordinances that were delivered to them by Paul. ordinances are laws, decrees, To be milder, they are teachings and directions, not mere local customs.

Covering the hair was for married woman as a sign of respect for their husbands. It wasnt for unmarried girls. A woman who goes public without cover her head in the bible days has dis honored her own husband. It's like a modern day woman who doesn't wear her wedding ring.

This is just a get out excuse that is untenable. Its like suggesting that every where'man'is mentioned, it has to refer to only married males, or even only to males. But we know that it can refer to the whole of mankind. Is Christ not the head of every man? Is Christ only the head of married men?
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Do we say here that this only applies to married women? Is it okay for a man to 'touch'an unmarried girl? Let every woman have her own husband. It is not compulsory that every woman has a husband. this is the same 1Corinthians, and we see that Paul did not limit his use of that word to only the married. We cannot also say that unmarried women are allowed to usurp authority over men, as Paul uses the same woman word in 1Timothy.

This is the scripture most people misunderstand

1 Corinthians 11:5
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head:for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

The word "woman " only refers to the married. To dishonor her head makes reference to her husband who is her head. According to verse two. Which says . . . .the head of every woman is her husband. . .

It's important to read verse 5 in other translations .let me clarify by reading living bible translation

1 Corinthians 11:5
And that is why a woman who publicly prays or prophesies without a covering on her head dishonors her husband, for her covering is a sign of her subjection to him.

If nothing else, i believe that we are both on the same page that the covering referred to is not the hair. If it is the hair, how does this apply to the married woman theory?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, flee. Jesus was advicing on what to be done at this time of abomination. He said to flee. The people who were in the region of Judea are to flee. This is exactly what christians did when the Romans attacked Jerusalem and destroyed the place, many of them were preserved. The event have more than one happening, but the advice remains the same. It's not a time to sit and pray, or quote no weapon fashioned against me. At this time Jesus is referring to, they are to flee. Christians need to treasure the lives given them by God, and flee if they have such opportunity. There is no need to be killed anyhow, and lives wasted if such can be avoided.

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

This refers to urgency of the flight. this is not referring to sin. Some of God's commands are that way. God gives us commands/advice on how best to live our lives, and how the society will not decay or degenerate. Some people trim down all God's words to a case of going to heaven and going to hell. One can ridiculously yank out this verse and say "Jesus said him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house", not considering context, and start foolish questiions and discusions about the implications of anybody or christian coming down from the housetop to take anything out of his house.
All Jesus is saying here is that there should be no time lost at that period, to go inside and prepare some things to flee with. They were to urgently flee before they were stopped.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Pregnant people and nursing mothers will suffer more in such a situation, that's common sense as it were. Their prayer and our prayer is that that day/time will not be winter period or sabbath day. These are circumstances that will hinder them from quickly fleeing. Winter weather is harsh, and you do want to be out in the cold, in the mountains, homeless during such a period. The winter will kill, a situation they are fleeing from. The sabbath will restrict activity and movement. Sabbath days and weekends are not as busy as other days. One might not easily access things like is done on other days. There is limited traffic and distance, the markets are not as open, information is not as spread etc.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This is the verse that shows us the peculiarity of this time and sign. Remember the questions, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
THEN, at that time, there will be great tribulation. Of course, the first question is ruled out, there has been worse tribulation after the Roman invasion and destruction of the temple. This THEN refers to the second coming. When/after Christ comes, there will be no great tribulation. There will be a reign of peace and prosperity and righteousness. But before His coming, there will be GREAT tribulation. This GREAT tribulation is different from the beginning of sorrows that we face daily. Even in Jesus'time, the days were evil.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Jesus said in the world, we have tribulation, Paul talks of a present distress. All these is nothing, just beginning of sorrows, a tip of the iceberg, compared to the GREAT tribulation. The verse says of the great tribulation, not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
There is no period comparable to this period. It is a period of wrath. It's a period when both God and devil are angry at the same time. Even Moses alluded to these days.
Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
It is the time of Jacob's trouble, though it would be world-wide. This is because except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved. Israel will bear the brunt, the worst part. They will be so hurt they will turn to the Saviour/Messiah, saying Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. That's when they will see Him, that's when He will come(Luk 13:35).

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Really, i do not enjoy these calculations and speculation. But from what we've seen in Daniel(and in other places not mentioned). Those days of tribulation, great tribulation, are three years and six months. But these verse tells us that those days will be shortened. It can be shortened by the antichrist delaying in breaking his agreement/covenant, or by Christ coming before the end of the week/seven years. Those are just two possible ways. What we know though is that those days will be shortened. There will be so much destruction and death in the wars and suffering that the whole of mankind left will truly be in danger of extinction/extermination. But those days will be shortened because of the elect. The elect are simply the chosen ones. They are in every age and generation. Paul writes to the elect in Colossians for instance as holy and beloved. Many are called but few are chosen. In the time of the great tribulation, there are people that will still manage to live godly lives through much trouble. Those are the elect of that time. But they are not the only elect. i am one of God's elect, and so is every child of God. By God's grace, i will not be here by that period of the great tribulation. But God will gather His elect both from heaven and earth(v31)
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Obviously, Jesus is addressing not just His primary direct audience of Peter, James and John. He is addressing all his disciples/followers, especially those who will be around at the time of tribulation. Peter will not be deceived by anyone that comes to say he is Christ. Neither would James and John. they knew and handled Christ. It is someone who has not seen and handled the dollar note that can be deceived to think that the ghanaian cedis is the american dollar. But in those days, there will arise false messiahs and false prophets. their falsehood will not be primarily by their powerlessness or arranged prophecy. There are false christs that will shoe GREAT signs and wonders, that will deceive many people. They will so close to deceiving the elect. But the elect will not be deceived. This is because the elect is not primarily driven by miracles, sins and wonders. The elect is driven by the Spirit of God and guided by the Word of God, holding the Head. These is what one should do so that he/she will not be deceived. People(preachers) are followed today because they have wonderful teaching and preaching ability. Their words are believed above the Bible because they perform great signs. Why great signs and miracles are good, and should be coveted in our churches, they are never a benchmark for acceptance before God. God did great signs and wonders, greater than anything we see today, amongst the Israelites in the wilderness. Yet, we are told that God was not pleased with them. He was GRIEVED with them for 40 years. Signs and wonders is not a sure proof that God is pleased with you or your church. Jesus didn't do one miracle or preaching before God declared "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
Jesus says Behold, I have told you before. See, I have told you before. Don't be founded on anything except Christ. Not in miracle, not in doctrine even, but in Christ.

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Pretty clear what question this part is addressing, isn't it? The coming of the Son of man. What shall be the sign of thy coming? As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also [b]the coming of the Son of man be. It says from east to west i.e from the rising of the sun to the going down of the sun. He is referring to clarity, that His coming will be very clear. Here is how Luke puts it.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
From one part of the heaven to the other part. That's how lightening is, very clear. Even in a dark weather, or a dark room on a rainy day, you will see the lightning. This is how His second COMING will be, pronounced. Every body will see it. You do not need to be told that He is over there, or in some desert, or in the secret chambers. Don't believe that nonsense. When He came the first time, they had to look for Him, He was born in a manger, meek and lowly. His second coming is not going to be like that, EVERY eye will see Him.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Please, note that this is His COMING, coming to earth. Not the rapture. There is the rapture that ends the church age, which is in a twinkling of an eye, with people disappearing. After the rapture is the one week(seven years) of Daniel 9, and then Jesus will come.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

This verse hangs in some sort of isolation in this passage. Permit me to join it with the context in which it was said.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Jesus was talking about the disappearances, where one shall be taken, and the other left. This is not the second coming but something before it, the rapture. And they ask Him where, then He says Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. The eageles/birds naturally and instinctively find the carcass. They gather there. It will be that natural and instinctive of believers, dead and alive to be gathered to the Lord.
Gen 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Believers are going to meet the Lord in the air
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We will gather together, dead and alive saints, to meet the Lord in the air. That's the promise.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Okay, back again, talking about the second coming, which is what He was talking about before the v28 that looked "not in place". Immediately after the tribulation of those days. This is referring to the SPECIFIC GREAT tribulation. The coming of Jesus will be AFTER the tribulation. There will be signs in the atmosphere. This is still in line with how clear and pronounced His second coming TO EARTH will be. He will not be coming as a thief in the night at this time. We should not mix things up. Everybody will know this one, there will be no knowledgeable person unprepared for this one. But for the rapture, nobody knows when. That one is anytime, sudden, and in a twinkle of an eye. This is a mystery, and is often mistaken and even knowing combined with the description of the second coming, and even of the end of the world.
Before the second coming, there will be signs in the atmosphere. Luke talks of not just one sign, but of signS in the plural. It is not just this once that the sun will give signs. Yes, before Jesus comes to earth, there will be a sign, but it is not limited to this. Before the end of the world too, there will be signs in the heaven and sun. Even during the tribulation, there will be signs.
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
The sun will be darkened. that's not a first. Recall that the sun was also darkened when Jesus was on the cross, and there was darkness for three hours.
Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

But sun darkening will be one sign among many others already mentioned, to watch out for when Jesus is to come again to the earth.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

After the heavens have shown their sign, then will appear the SIGN of the Lord in heaven. We are not told what this sign is, but we cannot just limit it to say that Jesus will appear in heaven, and everybody will see Him hanging there. No, that is not what is said. Everybody will know He has arrived, and they will mourn and wail in repentance and penitence.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
They will see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. i suppose it would have billion views on youtube He will come with His saints.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There will be a gathering together of His elect from everywhere, from heaven, from earth, and from the four winds. From everywhere in short. That will be a massive 'reunion'. Then they will reign for a very long time, not one year, not four years, not even ten years or fifty. Think about a star entertainer or sports person or tv personality, or government. They get to reign, some for a season, some for three to seven years. Some even reign for decades, as it were. But the saints, who have endured to the end will reign forever and ever.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

shdemidemi: Bro, its all subtle rubbish tending towards legalism. I have left the brother to keep parading the falsehood.

Then was fulfilled the saying "Titus 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you".

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Obviously, this verse(s) show that Jesus is not only talking to Peter, James and John, but to all His disciples in every place. Peter, James and John could not be the only ones to have all these happen to them, being hated of ALL nation, afflicted etc. These actions/suffering will be more prominent just before the second coming. Notice, He is specific about "then" in the two verses. The persecutions we face all around the world now and in the past since the ascension is child's play and mild, compared to the time just BEFORE the second coming. They had asked 3questions, one of which was What shall be the sign of thy coming, what are the marks that you are coming back, how will we know when you are coming?
Around that time, it will be common for christians to be afflicted, and killed, and hated of all nations. Because of this common persecution, MANY other christians will be offended. They will be discouraged, because they would have taught God will assist them and save them. In that time, they will betray one another. In that time they will hate one another. The 'trickles' of backsliding and disappointment/offence that we are seeing now are just the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

This is back again in the general, with no specific 'then'. Many false prophets will rise, and will deceive MANY. MANY false prophets deceiving MANY. A false prophet is a prophet that is not of God. It is not a prophet that cannot do miracle or cannot predict. Many people will do miracle and wonders, and give accurate predictions and 'prophecy', but God does not even know them. More reason why they will deceive many, as they have some form of power. A person who does not want to be deceived has to be VERY careful, and to hold the Head(Jesus), not any part of the body but the Head.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is also general and is currently happening, and has been happening since the time of the early christians. Iniquity abounds, we are living in times of evil. Until Jesus comes, the devil is the ruler and prince of these world, and christians need to be careful as to successfully navigate their way in victory until the end of their journey. The end here is talking of the individual end of every christian's life/pilgrimage on earth. The christian is NOT PROMISED a bed of roses. There is an ENDURANCE to be done till the end. You do not endure enjoyment, like chocolate, goody goody, or fried chicken and success in career. You endure hardness.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
The christian is a soldier, even a prisoner of Christ. Iniquity abounds around the world. Unfairness, sorrow, sin, corruption, perversion, we have to endure to be christians in the midst of these.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Being born again or spirit filled does not preclude anyone from suffering, trial, and tribulation. Yes, God can be merciful and kind to you, and answer your prayer, to give you some things we call blessing, but God has not promised us a hitch-free, trouble-free experience on earth. We are cast down/disappointed but not destroyed. What He has guaranteed though is His presence, comfort and consolation whether in the waters, in the fire, or on land. So we should never let our love wax cold. Paul said "i am persuaded, nothing will separate me", he said " I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.". He was prepared, he knew that life or death, tribulation, famine, unclothedness, angels, whatever may come. Many christians are only prepared for good things. Once good thing does not come or stops coming, they lose faith, the love waxes cold. A prayer 'not answered', a failed exam, a loved one died, poverty, then they wax cold. But he that shall endure to the end of his journey/test, the same will be saved.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Please, notice the question again, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The gospel will be preached in all the world, and THEN shall the end come. Many of us read it as "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall Jesus come", or then shall the rapture come. So, there are people calculating and saying how many millions or thousands that are yet to hear the gospel, and they conclude that Jesus cannot come now. Meanwhile, He is not being held back or limited by our refusal to preach the gospel. he has sent you to preach, and He is coming anytime. He will come to take His own, and He will come to reign, before the end of the world. We must be prepared to meet the Lord.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Hmmm, here is the part that's not so easy and straight. i prefer easy and straight. Nonetheless, i'll try to make it easy and straight, but really, it's not. Obviously, the passage says whoso readeth, let him understand. That is an indication that it is not easy and straight-forward. The reader has to be careful, and understand, take extra note.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet. He is referencing this passage below;
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
You see, Daniel also, as wise and greatly beloved as he was, was told to understand, consider, and know what was being said. Or better still, the reader is being warned, as actually Daniel didn't exactly need the understanding like the readers, who are to expect its fulfillment. This is among other things, because the desolation is not one, but desolationS, desolations are determined(26). The abomination o f desolation is not just one, about two or more have happened. Infact, history tells of one popular one that happened before Christ gave this passage. Antiochus Epiphany, called the mad one, had come after the prophecy of Daniel but before Jesus was born, and he had desecrated the temple, and made it abominable and desolate. After Jesus'prophecy here, there has being the pulling down of the temple, and abomination, desecration and desolation. They even built a mosque there instead. But the ultimate fulfilment, is when the antichrist himself will desecrate the temple in Jerusalem. and work abominable desolations. That is still future. But all these desecrations, and abominable desolations still are signs and indicators in their right.
i'll love to continue with the verse and passage, but i will quickly touch on somethings in these Daniel passage that Christ alluded to. i'm not delving into full expositions, but the reader can kindly read up Bible commentaries and history to establish what is about to be said.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Seventy weeks translated here is literally "Seventy sevens" i.e seventy times seven. 70 weeks are determined, that is God's time table. The time-table/frame is to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Obviously, we are behind schedule as it were, but we know Jesus has come, and made reconciliation for iniquity, He has being anointed by the Spirit. But we still have a lot of transgression and iniquity abounding. There is no end of sins yet. It was all to be done in seventy weeks, or better still, seventy sevens. Seventy sevens is 70 times 7, which is 490. 490years. Hey, Rome was not built in a day
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Know and understand, the seventy sevens start counting from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem. Then there is this division of the seventy into three. Two are stated(seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks). The third division(one week) is hidden somewhere. 7+62+1=70. There are 69 weeks to the Messiah(Jesus Christ). From the time that the commandment for the building of Jerusalem came(Nehemiah's time) to the time that Jesus died is 483 years. (Do your research, study and readings please, you can start with Bible commentaries).

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
7 weeks gone, then 62 weeks. After 62 weeks, Messiah is cut off, killed on the cross of calvary for you and me. And the verse continues almost seemlessly.After the Messiah is cut off, there is a 'prince that shall come'. This prince to come is the usurper, the antichrist. The antichrist's people have been coming since Christ's ascension. They have been busy destroying things, the spirit of the antichrist is already here.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

But there is a one week missing and remaining, or better still, there is a 7year period missing, not yet fulfilled. When Jesus talked of His anointing, He quoted a passage in Isaiah.
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Notice that He stopped at acceptable year of the Lord, saying this day is this Scripture fulfilled. The day of vengeance and the other things that He was to do was not to be 'fulfilled this day'. This is because there is a mysterious gap between. We are in that gap. The gap is called the church age. They did not know about it in the old testament. They were all so concerned about God's covenant with the Jews and how the gentiles will hear word and submit, and their Messiah will reign forever and ever in paradise earth with the wolf and the lamb playing together. They didn't know, they did not expect, it was not revealed to them that the gentiles will become accepted in the beloved, that other sheep will be called. When Jesus came, He was dealing with the Israel primarily, but they rejected Him. they did not receive Him. So, He left them DESOLATE. He paused the time-table.
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Now, the church age gap is dateless, it can end anytime. It has passed 490 years, its been about 2000years now, and God just hanged the plan somewhere. Indeed, it remains a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. The church age started with a sound from heaven, popularly called Pentecost. The church age will end with another sound from heaven, referred to as Rapture. Then, the 70week arrangement will continue.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The prince that shall come, the antichrist. Notice the Messiah Prince in capital letter, and the prince that shall come, in small letter. The prince that shall come will confirm some sort of covenant/agreement, but he will renege in the middle of the week. Lemme stop here, and come back to Matthew 24. Hopefully, there is some new knowledge gained and added to the broader perspective of things, thank you.

honey86: rotfl, really?. You think i dont know breastmilk is the best. I have been told severally by my midwife here and very soon im starting my breastfeeding classes. You have refused to answer my question, WHAT SHOULD A MOTHER DO WHEN THE CHILD REFUSES TO SUCK BREASTMILK WHETHER EXPRESSED OR DIRECTLY FROM THE BOSOM?, Since you know so much.

aunty, there is no point in re-inventing the wheel. Kindly take time out to read this link, it is educative and answers your question. i do not claim to know so much.

http://www.mobimotherhood.org/mm/article-refusal.aspx

i MUST work the work of Him that sent me. We need labourers

honey86: Im suprised you dont know that some babies reject breastmilk. In such cases, what should the mother do?. Does she allow her child suffer because she doesnt want to be called a bad mother or resort to giving the child processed milk?.

Kindly educate yurself from these links, the internet can be of great value. Thanks.

http://www.mobimotherhood.org/mm/article-refusal.aspx


http://www.babycenter.com/404_what-should-i-do-if-my-baby-refuses-to-nurse_1930.bc


The frst lnk is quite detailed.

honey86: Nairaland is filled with a lot of uneducated graduates. What's the big deal on giving the child goat milk. its no different from d nan, sma and the rest we feed kids with.

But with all your education and graduation, you ought to know that three month old babies are not meant to be fed goat milk or sma. The best for them is b.reast milk.

AS IN?

Uyi Iredia: @ Image123: Where is it stated that God won't kill today ?

In the passages that tell us to love our neighbours and our enemies. What i mean in line with the thread thought, is that God would not send His children(like He did the Israelites) to go kill anybody.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Writer Paul is sharing his experience, which BTW is every human's experience. This experience is after his salvation. Paul has just declared "I am carnal". He didn't just say that he WAS carnal, but that He IS carnal. Our flesh is carnal. No matter how born again we are, our flesh is carnal. Our self nature is carnal. Even our heart is carnal.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We've seen earlier that God has judged the flesh as good for nothing. That which is of the flesh is flesh. Give it the best training and good works, it is all filthy rags before God. This becomes more pronounced, more of a fight, when man becomes a new creature. When God's Spirit comes to dwell in you, when you become born again. The flesh begins to WAR against the spirit. The flesh lusts against the spirit, 1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
And the flesh is powerful. It is the old man, it's being with you since you were born, unlike the Holy Spirit who just came when you were born again. The flesh is going to be with you till you die BTW. That's why no man is above temptation, no matter how holy or spiritual.What we do is to overcome temptations, and we can ALWAYS overcome. What you do with the flesh is to crucify it. Gala 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Here we have it again, the law is good. It is perfect. But something can be good and perfect, but yet not put to right use. The right use is that we are not UNDER the law. We are not under its control. Nevertheless, we are not without control, we are UNDER grace. Grace and Truth came by Jesus. We cannot deny the Truth because we are under grace. We cannot trample on or transgress the law simply because we are under grace. The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law. So there is nothing wrong with the law, infact Paul said that the law is perfect. But we do not use the law for our justification. i consent, i agree that the law is GOOD. Holy, just, good, perfect. We do not make void/useless the law as christians, we ESTABLISH it.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to [size=13pt]the perfect manner of the law[/size] of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Paul came to this realisation, the flesh is not good. We should not be fleshly or carnally minded. We should not walk in the flesh but in the spirit. We should not live like men, but like Christ. Let the mind be in you which was also in Christ. We are to be Christ minded, christlike. i KNOW that in my flesh dwells no good thing. have you known that? Many christians do not know that, that is why anything goes. This is the key to the passage. To realise that we WRESTLE, that there are two 'men' inside us, and hat one has to be perpetually under. Paul said, "I put my body UNDER". How would a soldier fare who does not realise that he is at the warfront? I know that in me dwelleth no good thing.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

This is the easiest thing, it is free fall. The flesh finds it very easy to dominate. It is easily attracted to sin. The "I", the self life, the self nature will always oppose Christ. The way out is to crucify it. Paul said, "It is NO LONGER I that liveth". When I lives, we get defeated, and this verse is our testimony.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Here again is the discovery of the freefall. The law as it were, that when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

The inward man, the old man. Two different men as it were. The new man or inward man delights in the law of God. One needs to check himself if he does not find delight in the law of God.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Another law! Again, note that when the Bible mentions 'law', it is not only talking about the law of Moses(whatever that is). Here we see two laws, the law of my mind, and the law of sin. So it behooves us to always know the context of the law being referred to. We cannot afford to just lump every law as the Mosaic law, or the old covenant. We are not under the law, we are not under the law. There are still laws that we must obey and regard like has been shown. e.g the law of marriage, the law of gravity. They do not just vanish away. In this text, we see that one has to still contend with the law of sin. there is that law that says you must sin, while God says those that are born of Him should sin no more. Some people fight off the law of moses, but are under the law of sin. That is a misplacement of priorities if you'll ask me.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thank God, it is not all gloom and doom. Yes, man is wretched, I am wretched and we must all know that. The flesh is condemned, but we are DELIVERED through Christ. There is deliverance for everyone who believes, thank God.

supereagle: [size=18pt]God recommends Goat Milk(Proverbs7vs27 And thou shalt have goats' milk enough for thy food, for the food of thy household, and for the maintenance for thy maidens. )[/size]

Not for babies, duh. God recommends meat, do you feed meat to your 3month old, or bread? God gave b.reast milk.