₦airaland Forum

thehomer: How was it a wild unfounded assumption? I see no reason for opening up another thread. This one isn't full.

You said "God has foresight and hindsight yet he didn't know that drowning everyone except Noah and his crew won't end evil."
Such statement is said to be wild and unfounded and an assumption when it is poorly thought out, overwhelmed by emotion, not supported by evidence or fact, and a conjecture/guess without proof. i am still waiting for your proof for this baseless assumption.

I started this thread to show you that his laws are immoral so trying to get me to appeal to his immoral laws isn't a good idea.

okay, i recall you actually started the thread. Your penchant for red herrings is really affecting you. You tend to pull out some stuff from nowhere that we now have to discuss and settle, while we leave what we were actually discussing. Now, here you are telling us in other words that you are not here to discuss or accept anything other than your views. You are only here to show us/shove your views on us. It's not a good idea to show you that your OP is wrong. Now, what more do you want to be said?

shdemidemi: Legalism at its peak! What difference does it make if one ask questions since you have refused to defend your summations with answers. you have taken a profound position based on preconceived understanding.

This borders on false accusation. i did not refuse to defend what i have said. i have answered you extensively on this thread. i have only sought not to derail this thread with indirect questions and answers. We are discussing Romans primarily. When we take pages and tens of line to talk about peter and his view on burial and resurrection, and spirits of death in Egypt, and lamb blood, this is all a distraction to this thread. i did not refuse to discuss them still, but asked that you open another thread on such issues, while we make progress on Romans here. thanks.

i give up

God bless you.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Is the law sin? No. Sin is the transgression of the law. Is thou shall not murder sin? No. It is the transgression of that law, the disobedience to that law (thou shall not murder), that is sin. Is thou shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sin? No. No law is sin, not the law of Moses even. The way folks tremble and run from Moses like he is the sin against the Holy Ghost or something. But the truth makes us free. When we know the truth, of what we are, and whom we are under(grace), we are made free. We are not under the servitude of any other but Jesus Christ. Does that mean that we trifle with God's words and laws? No! God forbid. Are God's Words now meaningless to us, or do we have a right to rebel? No. The following verses are still true in the christian's life, and for any lover of God.
Psa 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
Psa 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
Psa 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.
Psa 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Psa 119:53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
Psa 119:60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.
Psa 119:80 Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.
Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Psa 119:92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
Psa 119:97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psa 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
Psa 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.
Psa 119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psa 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them forever.
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.
How beautiful it says "thy law is the truth". Jesus said same, He said "Thy Word is truth". Is the Word still a lamp and a light to you, or it has become pick and choose for you, something that does not bother you or affect you or influence you? Is the law sin? God forbid.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Again, i need to remind us of a point in this verse. The law is not just referring to Moses' law or covenant here. It says without the law, sin was dead. But we know that he had said earlier that sin and death reigned, even before Moses, from Adam. There was so much sin that God sent a flood during the time of Noah, before Moses. Sin was not dead at all, the people were busy transgressing the law, from Sodom to Potiphar's wife.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The law is still not dead today, neither is sin. they still reign in many lives that are not surrendered to Christ. So it's not just about attacking Moses' laws. Some people think that if we just do away with Moses'laws(whatever that even is), there will be no more sin. So they tell people not to read from one passage in the Bible, or even mention a word. they are under the law.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Not to over labour the passage, i will be brief in the subsequent verses. i was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived. Anyone can say this same statement, and it is true. If Adam says it, it is true. Same for you. Your ignorance/innocence was almost a blessing for you, but you would have never become ripe and useful. You would have never become holy. What is the point being a baby all through life? Where is the joy in that? Being alive without the law once. At some stage in life, accountability comes.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

God gave us fire and water, both useful, and both very destructive, depending on use. Almost everything given us can be misused, and abused when not put to right use. God gave us faith and fear. Imagine being not afraid of putting your hand in the mouth of a crocodile, or not afraid of walking briskly in the dark. You will suffer without such fear. Imagine pupils that do not fear their teachers, or young people who do not fear their parents and elders, a student who is not afraid of failing his tests or exams. Some fear gives you common sense, helps you to prepare for the rainy day, and avoid mistakes and stumbling. Now i'm not being brief The commandment God gave, and still gives, may affect us negatively if we do not use it properly. Same goes for anything given us. God can bless us with a job, or a talent, or even kids, and such can still lead to our ruin, sorrow and death if we are not careful.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Sin took advantage, when man was slack. Sorry, [size=13pt]sin takes advantage when man is slack[/size]. That's why we should not be slack, we should take hees, we should be careful, circumspect. We should stand fast, and DO ALL to stand. We should not be ignorant, but should know. most importantly, we should trust God, and allow Him to help us and lead us. Satan is quite smart, smarter than any man. You can't exactly outsmart him on your own, though he would want you to think that you can. Infact, he would rather not have you know that he is around or exists, not to talk of your fighting him or being in competition. The say when you know your problem, it is half-solved. Satan does not want you in the know. Thank for new testament sef, there is hardly anything about satan in the old testament bible. Don't let him take advantage.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Quite reminiscent of the verses from Psalm 119 quoted above. The law is holy, just, and good. End of discussion. What! New testament, tongue talking, holy ghost roaring, grace abounding Paul saying that the law is good? Many people refuse to believe their eyes on this verse, but it does not go away. The Word is settled forever, and the Word will nevver pass away. The law is good. man is not good, not even one. but here is the law, and it is good. not just good, but holyand just/righteous. All those verses in the Bible are righteous, and good and holy. That is one salient point to note if nothing else has been noted since the start of this thread.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The sinfulness of sin is expressed in the law. many people do not know the sinfulness of sin, little wonder they are not practically free from sin. They have only being told of the blessings of Jesus, and how we are blessed and free from the curse of the law(whatever that means). Sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. How sinful is sin to you? If you knew how sinful sin is, you would not play with sin.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Oh ho ho. Not only is the law good, and holy and just/righteous. The law is also spiritual. Are we still in Romans? New Testament romans? Yes. We KNOW that the law is spiritual. Do you? There are some people who think they have a calling and ministry to make void the law. to show us how pointless, and invalid, and useless, and cancelled it is. Paul said "Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? [size=13pt]God forbid[/size]: yea, we establish the law." The law is spiritual, we knowwww. If there is any problem at all, it is you, us, i. I am carnal, sold under sin. Who sold us? Adam. Adam made a decision to be of the flesh. Jesus is of the spirit, and wants us to be of the spirit. Adam chose the flesh. God marked his answer script, and sadly declared him flesh. He(God) had said "ye are gods", but man decided otherwise. In your report sheet, it is there, "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return". And that which is born of the flesh is flesh. How IMPORTANT to be born again! And the Spirit was striving with man and striving like He still does today, till He came to a conclusion, Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
He also is flesh, carnal, sold under sin. As God weighs you as an individual, does He see you as flesh, also? It's very easy to blame others, like Adam. i think they call it adamic nature. Many people blame the law, or Moses. Some blame Adam, some blame Nigeria, some blame the church, some blame pastors, some blame religion. They have not come to realization, like Paul, like David, like Peter, that I am carnal, that there is none good, no, not one. That I am sold under sin.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages, the salary, the consequence and payment of sin and for sin is death. And sin is the transgression of the law. Like's its being said earlier, this death is not physical death, else we all have to receieve the wage of sin even after God has forgiven us and Christ has "borne it all". Christ died for us. He was separated from, and forsaken by the Father. He who confidently said "he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him", was shockingly and agonizingly left alone, taking the wages of sin for us, so that we may never die.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The gift God is offering us is eternal life through Jesus Christ, who is our Lord. These have always been the two things on offer from Adam. Moses said to choose life, as He had set life and death before the people of God. God told Adam in Eden, there are two trees. One the tree of life, the other the tree that Adam would die the day he ate of it. We know what Adam chose. What are you consciously or unconsciously choosing today. They say Adam consciously chose, but that Eve unconsciously chose. The point though is that they both chose, and got thrown out of the garden. We can bewail and complain about them all day, but the same thing is presented before us all. The wages of sin is separation from God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

In the Roman church, there were brethren who knew the law. Paul is here address those that know the law. However, it is not something esoteric, he is just going to use the instance to make an illustration. He has in the previous chapter given relationships to the law as that of a servant and a master, and as that of a teacher and a child(in Galatians). Now he illustrates using a husband and wife relationship as we'll see.

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

The woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth. This applies till date. It is restated in another epistle BTW.
1Co 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
There are several laws that God approves of and is interested in our not breaking. People think of getting out of the law of Moses as being free from any law. No, its not. Christians are not lawless people.
Gala 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
There is the law of gravity to respect and obey if you want to live long. There is the law of sowing and reaping still in place. there is also this law of marriage, or as our verse calls it 'law of the husband'. A woman cannot marry another person as long as her husband is alive, and vice versa. Even if they were separated, they cannot remarry. Adultery is still a sin in God's update.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Man has to die, to be loosed from marriage to the law. The law is not dead. You have to die, not naturally/physically. The death being referred in these passages is not the physical. You have to die in Christ.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
You are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, so that ye should be married to another. This is an illustration, as in reality, we are not exactly married to Christ but are His bride, His chaste and glorious virgin that He is coming for. He is going to marry us at the marriage supper of the Lamb. But the illustration works just fine. We now have a new handler and husband. Not satan, not the law, but Jesus. Some people are controlled by the law, some others by satan exclusively, some others by themselves. But God wants us to be under the control of Christ, under grace, led by the Spirit. The law is like a very demanding husband, tyrannical. the law wants everything perfect or the wife cannot please him. For the law, the wife must wake up by 4. It has to be exact, four is four, not later, not before, you must never burn the food, the dishes must be done, the children must be prepared by 6, and that 6 has to be sharp. You cannot be out by 7 in the evening, not for any reason whatsoever ever, dinner must be prepared to a prescribed taste, the seasoning must never be too much or too little, all the laundry must be done on time etc etc. Being married to Jesus also comes with responsibilities by the way. Even more! But the difference is that there is help, there is grace. He helps you all the way. Christ also wants His wife to wake up early, perhaps even 3, He wants her to do the laundry, and the breakfast and dinner, never burn the food, or prepare something tasteless. But He is in a partnership, He helps her all the way.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The verse that follow actually prove that His standards, demands, and expectations, are higher than the law's. The law says don't kill, Christ says don't even be angry talk less of kill. The law says don't commit adultery, He says don't even lust else you've already committed adultery. He's more stringent on divorce, more stringent on cutting off your own body parts. In truth, the law was hard, Christ is impossible. But the glorious thing is that He helps, and anyone wife willing to accept His grace will find help in time of need.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

When we were in the flesh? What? The writer is about to embark on a sort of puzzling journey in this chapter. The christian has the flesh to contend with till death. He has to continually and consciously walk in the Spirit, instead of walking in the flesh. He has to daily take up his cross, crucify his flesh and die.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Gala 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
If you live in the flesh, you will die, be separated from God, but if you die with Christ, you will live. But now we are delivered from the law, thank God for this. We are delivered from its rule as our husband and master. It doesn't mean that we are now lawless. That you are not under someone doesn't mean that you do not respect or regard them again. Many of us still have great respect for our alma mater, our teachers, our masters, and former employers. God wants us to still fulfill the law. You cannot be truly under christ and not fulfil the law.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gala 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
However, we are delivered from the law in the sense that we do not need it to be justified by God. It's not in the agreement. In the old agreement/covenant, they were told to fulfil the law so that they can be righteous, please God and be blessed and saved. In the new testament/agreement, we are made righteous, blessed, saved and pleasing to God first, so that we can fulfil the law. So that anyone trying to obey the law in order to be saved is actually putting the cart before the horse. To, the undiscerning, its okay as the cart and the horse are both there. But its wrongly arranged and will not get you anywhere. It's like preparing a delicious meal, there is a process, a recipe. You don't just lump all the ingredients together and put it in the oven, or on fire. It's same ingredients but there are steps, processes and procedures. Fulfilling the law does not get you saved. By the way, you cannot even fulfil it on your own. God gave the law so that you cannot fulfill it. We have already discussed that previously, the law was given for transgression. Jesus and Paul testified that the people under the old covenant in their time did not fulfil the law. Some people think that if you give tithes, then you are fulfilling the law. Or that if you obey any instruction found in the Old testament Bible, then you are fulfilling the law. No, love is the fulfilling of the law. Here it is from Jesus and Paul for proof,
Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Gala 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Keeping the law is more than boasting, that in my church we do not pay tithe, therefore we are not under the law. Or that we only read new testament. Now, we are delivered from the law. We do not need it to approve us before God. We are approved and justified by faith. We are not approved because we have never killed anybody, or because we did not abort, or we are virgin. You are a virgin, the other fellow, your neighbour is sleeping around. If you are having confidence in being accepted before God for your works ahead of the other fellow, you are under the law. You are seeking justification, righteousness by works. You are not delivered from the law. It could be any other instance, you may be generous, a giver, a philanthropist, a gentle person, easy going, church going. Are you delivered from the law, and under grace? Of course, the delivered should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

frosbel: There were no needy among them because their needs were met , if the bible says it , that's good enough for me.

Obviously needs are ongoing not static.

Fine, very fine. What you initially sid ws that there should not be ONE needy person in the church. i have pointed out to you that there. move on, bye.

frosbel: ^^^


I often give MONEY to where real needs exist , not into the pockets of crooks and charlatans.

Bottom line is this , there are sadly so many needy in the church today , because the tithes and offering money hardly reach those with real and genuine needs, instead the money is used to advance the vision of the MOG, enrich his family and cronies etc.

There should not be ONE needy person in the church.

OP asked for honest contributions or smething like that. i simply gave the missing piece in the thread. The complete truth is that there were needs in the early church. i hope i don't have t come back to give passageS that show that. Thankfully frosb has now come out to clarify issues instead of the initial half truth he was feeding us. How he decided to ie it to tithes shows off his personal agenda, idiculous why he wants tithes to help his needy friends.

thehomer: If he knew it won't end evil, why then did he do it? Does he just like seeing people die?



According to nature, can people get physically reborn? According to nature, can people repeat a command to someone else?

Mr, you made a wild unfounded assumption, don't detract issues further. Thread opening is free, you could open one to find out.

Seems you managed to come around to what on earth i was talking about. You seem to trust the laws of nature. Do you know the law of God? According to the law of God, can a man murder his fellow man?

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Number one warning. You can be deceived. That you are a child of God, or elect, or whatever name you call yourself does not mean that you cannot be deceived. you need to be careful, to take heed, so as not to be deceived or fall. Let he that thinks he stands take heed. Nothing cannot be lost due to carelessness. Despite all the experience and God's gifts and promises, you need to take heed.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This has more than one meaning. Devil's name is DECEIVER. He doesn't care what way you are deceived, or on what edge og thee narrow way you fall off from. All he wants is that you are deceived, that you fall. Every other way and road is okay for him for you, so far its not the ONLY way. Many people will come and say that they are Christ and will deceive many. That's quite easy, i presume. If some fellow came to Peter or Philip or the early christians and said he was Christ, they would not be so easily deceived or amused. Even today, not many will be deceived, though there are some who amazingly aree so deceived. But then, many would come in Jesus'name, and will be saying that Jesus is the Christ, and will deceive many. That's more like it. Many professing christians on nairaland, in the churches, everywhere, are busied deceiving people, for God knows why. Take heed, that you are not deceived.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Okay, this fits either question 3 or 2. Wars and rumors of wars are what makes news stations and newspapers. See that you are not troubled. Many christians are troubled today by wars and rumors of wars, even on this thread. He said, see that ye be not troubled, the end is not yet. There are ministries and TV programmes dedicated to studying events and wars and governments and trying to link them all the time to when Jesus will come and when the world is ending bla bla.

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

okay, that's PROPHECY, not guesswork. These things have happened and are happening. All these are just the beginning, the tip of the iceberg as it were. There is much more to come in the GREAT tribulation. In the world, presently, theree is tribulation and trials, but all these is childs play compared to what is coming, when the powers of heaven will be shaken.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

should be posting on the next chapter between today and tomorrow. Had issues with posting after previously typing and then losing the data mistakenly. Sorry.

i'll try to do something short on the whole chapter. Sorry, the chapter itself is long, so, "endure to the end" please.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Pretty clear, the first two verses. Jesus was addressing multitudes that included His disciples, pharisees, lawyers. and other listeners in chapter 23. He ended the chapter by declaring His rejection by Israel, and then He went out, and departed from the temple. Obviously, not angry or bitter for Himself primarily, but for God. He still managed to endure an excursion directed by His disciples. He gave a prophecy of the temple destruction.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

When He got/sat on Mt. Olives, the disciples(Peter, james and John to be specific) came to Him privately to ask Him THREE questions.
1. When shall these things be, that is the destruction that He prophesied, when will there not be left one stone on the other in this temple?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, what are the marks that you are coming back, how will we know when you are coming?
3. What shall be the signs of the end of the world, when will the world end?
It is these THREE questions that Jesus gave answers to in the rest of the chapter(48 verses) and all through the next chapter25. He didn't simply say, question 1 is 70A.D, question 2 is 1990 and question 3 is 2010. How apt thst might have been. It's now up to us all as Bible students to by God's help, Spirit, and wisdom figure out what verse applies to which question.
for me, i usually paraphrase those two chapters as Jesus saying in other words "I am not telling you". When they later asked Him after the ressurection, He told them plainly as He had a flight to catch, as it were.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Subsequently therefore, i would be attempting to help folks who do not like the I'm not telling you answer. Reminds me of when we serious students went to disturb our teacher to explain something to us, then He gave us serious assignment wey pass exam. It stressed us sha, but we aced the exams BTW.

hehehehehe , false teachers and their ridiculous doctrines sha. What sort of church does not have needy people? Liars plenty for here oh. If there is not one needy person, then Philippians 4v19 should not be written to any true believer.

thehomer: What wild assumption?

That God didn't know that drowning everyone except Noah and his crew won't end evil.

According to the Bible, God has already given that command in the past so what on earth are you talking about?

According to nature, births happen all the time. And i want to imagine that it has happened to you before. You were born. That does not mean that you may be physically born by a woman again in the future, does it? The simple point is that because something has happen in the past doesn't mean that it may happen again, depending on context. You have a Bible, and i am certain that you are aware of what God expects from human beings at this time, according to His Word. If due to some unfortunate medical condition, or badluck, you have forgotten, go and re-read your Bible again, not just the places where you think you can lament about but also the new testament.

Emusan: Let's try to read Bible for ourself rather than what we've been told.
Jonah 3:1-3 "1 And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of theLord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey."



From these verses above did the fish vomit Jonah in Nineveh or not?

Emusan, Emusan, here is what you initially said in green oh
God prepared the fish only to transport Jonah back to where he's coming from

And i said "mba, Jonah was vomitted on nineveh and he was not coming from there". Here it is in HD
Jon 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
Jon 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

It is after his experience in the belly of the fish that he went to Nineveh. he was vomited on dry land, then God told him to go to Nineveh.
Jon 2:10 And the LORD spoke unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Jon 3:1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
Jon 3:2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.

I agree with you but you still missed my point on what actually happened to Jonah inside the fish.

What happened to jonah was that he prayed. Jonah was clearly in the fish's belly for three days and three nights. He went nowhere else.
Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

He was in the fish's belly when he prayed.
Jon 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
Any other venue we are inferring is not from this Bible passage.

Hmmm bro how inside fish will be death? Is death living there?

What i mean is that he would have died there in the fish's belly under normal circumstance. It's like taking a fish out of water for three days and nights, or burying a man inside water or underground for three days and nights. That is death already, except that the Lord had prepared the fish.
Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
It's why i likened it to God preparing the fire that Daniel's friends were thrown in, or the lions in the Den that lion was thrown in. They were prepared that is why Daniel and his friends were not hurt. Under normal circumstances, their plight, like Jonah's should have been death. Nothing organic survives in the belly of a living thing. It decomposes, its digested. Obviously, jonah came out unscathed or harmed in any way.

I don't like using other version than KJV but see the verse 2 of chapter 2 in Contemporary English Version "When I was in trouble, Lord, I prayed to you, and you listened to me. From deep in the world of the dead, I begged for your help, and you answered my prayer.
Though in verse 7 they use the continous tense 'sliping away'

Jonah chapter 2 the verse 1-2 was a complete event while Verse 3-7 was actually what happened during the event.

i also use the kjv primarily and there is nothing wrong with using the other versions too. The words used are pictorial/symbolic. Lastverse in chapter one and first verse have already plainly told us Jonah's location, where he prayed from. In the deep sea is where big fishes play, and that is the world of the dead to humans. There is little life there. The Bible severally uses the sea as where the dead is, or wherre things die. In Revelations for instance, you see something been cast into the sea(Rev 18:21) and in Rev 20:13 where the sea gave up the dead. When something is thrown into the sea, it is taken as dead. That's why the shipmen did not want to thrown jonah there because it was considered equal to killing him. Jonah did not die there as he consciously described his excursion in the fish's belly, where he "saw hell", as it were.
Verse 3 describes what is feasible in the sea - the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
The deep, the midst of the sea, the floods, billows, waves. All these are inside water, not in hell.
Verse 5 is similar. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
The waters, the depth, the 'weeds'.

Well I can't say anything about that, what Ilm insinuating on is the alive of Jonah in the fish and dead of Jesus in the tomb.



You never answer my question, did Jesus miracle also literal?

yes, they are similar in the fact that their they were not allowed to 'see corruption'. They did not decompose even though under normal circumstances, they should. They were both buried, considered dead and gone. Jesus said Jonah was in the whale/fish's belly for three days and nights.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And the word SHEOL was used as a place of dead throughout the OT, will Jonah case different?

There are other instances. The sheol simply means GRAVE. The belly of the fish was like Jonah's grave. He was considered dead and buried. He didn't know that he would survive that ofcourse. It's now that we are reading it that we can be discussing. For jonah, he thought it was the end. In Psalms, we see similarly expressions where the psalmist was not even dead.
Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
In this two instances, the psalmist was not in the grave or sheol, but he used such expression without dying.

Ok bro then should we say Jesus contradict Himself by comparing His miracle with that of Jonah?

....Jonah is alive in the fish and Jesus is dead in the tomb.....

Just look at the verse 2 in above version.

No, jesus did not contradict Himself. He compared Himself and God to different people and things. He also compared other himan beings to people and things. He compared His disciples to salt, light, trees for instance. He compared Himself to a thief coming in the night. He compared God to a certain man that had two sons, a field etc. he compared the kingdom to different things. He doesn't mean that He must do everything that a thief does, or that Lot does, or Noah etc. God compares Himself and His Word to water, to an eagle, to fire, a sword etc. These comparisons are to pass across a certain character and message. It doesn't mean that all the characters of what is been compared MUST tally. He does not have to boil at 100⁰ for instance. Let's keep the message as simple and clear as possible.

booqee: its not frequent as such. I guess its happened to me again yesterday probably because i've been thinking bout it cos the second to the last episode was scary, and i've been worried maybe dat why it happened so quickly again

You can't afford to continue allowing satanic forces to harass you anytime they feel like. For me, even if i sleep facing hell fire, no sleep paralysis. They cannot and would not want to see trouble. There are many drugs and prescriptions at the pharmacy, but nothing's as sure as using the all powerful and expensively free name of Jesus. Even if the worst sinner calls on that name, there is hope. But it works best when you know the man that bears the name. Simply call Jesus next time, then pray some kain violent prayer, they go pack out.

oh no, see the way many people are being harrased by satanic agents at will. Even a monkey would overcome simply by calling on Jesus, how much more proud pitiful humans for whom Christ died.

so wine is still mocking so many people, eeyah. Whosoever is deceived by wine is not?
na bible tlk am

thehomer: Don't you see the ridiculousness of your position? If he knew that the flood wouldn't end evil, why then did he bother to go ahead with it?



How is it rhetorical?

What is the relationship between birth and the fact that people command others to perform certain actions in this discussion on commands given by God?

You were unable to give your source/proof for your wild assumption.

The relationship is that they are both actions. Actons that take place all the time but are limited in proper context. You neglected the fact that God would not give a command and want us to dwell on assumption, not today.

the harvest indeed is plenty

Sincere Bigot: Brother ola.. You just ignored this thread and my questions abi?

Well, bad news, i bookmarked it, im going to keep posting here until you answer me

perhaps your question(s) has been answered countless times already.

who is the church?

I've been hoping to find time to give you a more detailed answer, but meanwhile, the scripture clearly states that God PREPARED a fish to swallow up Jonah. Why you would say, no God prepared a fish ONLY to transport Jonah to where he is coming from is surprising. i'm on pone but if i remember well, Jonah was vomitted on nineveh and he ws not coming from there. It is physically impossible for Jonah to have survived in the fish, that is why God had to prepare the fish. The fish's belly is not a prison, its death itself. Jonah was there unscathed, His body was not allowed to see corruption, like Jesus in the grave for three days. compare the verse below for instance
Psalms 119:109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

My soul is continually in my hand. is the psalmist lying? No. Is the phrase literal? No. It's a similar expression to what Jonah sid while in despair. People talk about seeing hell or showing pepper when there is some sort of trouble. This is not literal.

Evil Brain: You just perfectly captured why Nigeria is in such a mess. Because we have too many self deluded people like you who base their all their actions on a version of reality that only exists inside their heads.

People who refuse to accept the truth no matter how much evidence and logic they are shown. It doesn't matter to them that their beliefs are demonstrably false. Elvis is alive, miracle healings, Big Foot, talking snakes, palm reading, speaking in tongues, dousing for water, UFOs, evil spirits. You can tell the difference between fiction and reality.

Why wouldn't Nigeria be in a mess when the lunatics are running the asylum.

And this is the logic and evidence we should crave for,right? The man who has experienced God is not at the mercy of a man with just an argument. The best argument is not necessarily the truth, the world is cursed with many sweet tongues and seducers. If you're looking for a reason why your life is failing, look elsewhere. There are christians in every sphere of life in every part of the world. There are brilliant christians in every multinational, i don't see why you think your calamity is a result of anyone being a christian.

Chibuebem: its not just a belief you see. I experience the REALITY of the scriptures in my life. I know their life and power. Thats why nobody will ever move me. I don't need anyones affirmation to know that Gods word is real and true because I WALK IN THE REALITY OF IT. It is fulfilled in my life. Evil brain has false perceptions of reality.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

thehomer: A moral agent is one that can make moral decisions. God has foresight and hindsight yet he didn't know that drowning everyone except Noah and his crew won't end evil. This sounds to me like ignorant incompetence.



It is not a rhetorical question. Now answer it. Again, how is it baseless to wonder whether or not he would give such a command again? Your comparison to being born is just ridiculously pointless. I'm asking you about the command given by a God who knows all things not about whether or not Jesus will come down to Calvary to be crucified again so try to stick to the topic at hand and answer the direct question. Here it is again.

Has God ever ordered the killing of children? Please answer with a yes or no and avoid your pointless distractions.

Who told you that God didn't know that the flood would not end evil? You've started with fallacy ehn? i need your source/proof , nothing else except you want to open athread on that. i'll not be drawn into ignorant diversions on this thread.
i didn't ask if your question is rhetorical, i take it so. It remains needless to ask. The comprison is not ridiculous, peple come out of other humans everyday. Would you come out of another human again or have you not done it before? God's word is quite clear on how fellow humans should reat one another at this time.

thehomer: If God is a person, then you're admitting that he is a moral agent. As a moral agent who cares about humans, why would he give the sorts of commands he gave?



Has God ever ordered the killing of children? Please answer with a yes or no.

If he has, is it a baseless assumption to wonder whether or not he could do it again?

i asked for the meaning of a moral agent. God cares about humans, He also cares about judgement and always does the best possible. Like one would rather have one percent of his property perish, or one friend die, han to allow the corrupted one percent influence and destroy the whole. The kudos becomes more prominent when one recalls that God has the benefit of foresight and hindsight, unlike man.

i'll take the question about God ever ordering killing to be rhetorical. What makes it baseless is the common knowledge of the context and dispensation/time in which it was done, compared to the time that we are in. The same Bible tells us such is not to happen in our time. Why you choose to ignore that current fact and cling vigorously to the latter fact is surprising. Is it a baseless assumption to wonder whether or not you will come out of another human again, seeing you have done it before?

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

my point is that God had prepared a fish to swallow up Jonah. That fish was s prepared as to make Jonah survive in it. like He prepared the fire for Daniel's friends that it was not able to hurt them. He was not literally in the belly of hell, wherever that is. He spoke and described a physical location that we can access with oxygen masks. Of waters and being under the mountains. The hell expression was only figurative.

thehomer: You're basically implying that God isn't a moral agent i.e is not a person.



How sure are you? He has commanded people in the past to kill children. My question is if he decided to do that once more, would you?

What is a moral agent? God is a person but no a man. The context is clearly different. Like an executioner and a murderer. The executioner carries out the same action as the murderer, the executioner has the authority, the murderer/assasin doesn't.
i'm sure because i have read God's Word and like you've rightly hinted, here was a past, a different dispensation. i know what He can decide to do so there is no need for baseless assumptions. Its like asking what if obama is the president nigeria? We already know that he is not and would not, and there is therefore no objective purpose or gain in fantasy and idle talk.

[quote author=fresh_dude]There's nothing you can do about this. You're bound for life. All you can do now is attempt to endure the binders' bonds. Goodluck. Cobwebs ko, cowbells ni.[/quote]may you not see problem.

God prepared the fish, that made all the difference. Otherwise, he would have died. Like OluT has said, he prayed, thought etc. The expression that he was in hell is not the literal hell. Jesus said He would be in the heart of the earth. hat also is not literal. It's colloqual like we say someone is facing hell or saw hell or saw wen. Its more of connotative than literal as such person didn't literally see wen or hell, whatever they both are.

thehomer: Then how exactly is God a moral person? If a person commands to you that you should go out and kill 5 children. Would you be moral for following it? Would the person who gave such a command be a moral person?

Since you feel God has this right, would you do it if commanded by this God?

God is not a man. He is not subject to the same laws as man. Like for instance, He does not sleep. A person like you and me cannot create life. God is the creator and owner of all life. For instance, if you were farmer, nd i took your oxen, that would be theft. If you took it, or ordered me to take it, that would not be theft.

On what i would do if God commands me, i know God and to some extent i know what He would command me and what He would not command me. Therefore there is absolutely no need for baseless assumptions. God is faithful to His Word(tje Bible)

Pastor Kun: If by 'church' you mean Deeper life, the question should be are they walking in the foot steps of christ or are they just using his name to foister their agenda on the flock of christ.

is deeper life a part of the church? Are you a part of the church?