₦airaland Forum

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The rapture is the MYSTERY talked of in this verse.The Second coming was not a mystery, neither was the resurrection. Even the pharisees knew and believed that there would be resurrection. Jesus had also taught that He would come again. The disciples were asking about His coming in Matthew 24. Angels also talked of His coming during/after His ascension in Acts 1. But what was a mystery and sortof lumped into the Second coming was the Rapture. Just like the church(age) was a mystery. It could barely be seen separating the TWO comings of Christ from the Old Testament Scriptures. Everyone had the hopes and expectations shown in the typical JW magazines. But we now know that He had to come first to die, and then come Second to reign. The rapture is an event that would take place in short time, in the twinkling of an eye as it were. That's what Christ referred in His talk of people disappearing that i quoted in the previous post.

frosbel: Mate , the great tribulation has been ongoing for eons, there is no future great tribulation.

Sorry, Jesus said there is a Great Tribulation.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Any literate can see that this verse talks of a unique Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. So it's either Jesus is wrong and you are right, or otherwise. i hope you know who is right.

Jesus will come like a thief in the night at a time when people will be at ease, when they will be saying peace peace and then sudden destruction will come.

It will be like the days of Noah and Lot when people were going about their business, buying and selling, eating and drinking in revelry, abounding in pride and iniquity such that the love of many will become cold.

Agreed.

You are deceiving people by telling them there is a future great tribulation when the truth is that Jesus is about to come any minute from now, and many are unprepared.

That's what the rapture teaches, that Jesus will come any minute from now, and many are unprepared. What follows Christ's rapture will be wrath and tribulation. What follows Christ's Second coming will be a LOOOONG reign of peace like never before, when the lion will play with the lamb.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God has severally promised to save His people from the wrath to come. That is what John baptist spent years talking of in the wilderness. i'll quote just 2 passages, though there are several, and others may have quoted them even.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

frosbel: There is no difference between the rapture and the second coming, you really need to start studying scriptures.

Talking about studying, it will do you some good to observe the word 'rapture' is not even in the kjv Bible. How you'll know the difference is by knowing the definition of the word. The rapture is the catching up of saints to meet Jesus in the air. the Second coming is Jesus coming to earth with His saints. i gave two scriptures for each definition, you forgot(let's assume) to add the other that shows the difference. Here they are again.
one RAPTURE verse- 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
one SECOND COMING verse- Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

You delve into folly everytime you conclude that anyone who is not gloating or drooling over your views is not studying scriptures.

1Th 4:17 is a loud event, not a secret catching away of believers, this position is plain nonsense.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Have you noticed the words shout and voice of the archangel and trump of GOD , which precede the resurrection of the dead , who together with those who are alive will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air and descend to the earth with him.

Stop this rapture fable.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Coming from an advocate of common sense and reason as against faith, your views are a headshake. The rapture event is a shout in the sense that the dead (in Christ) will hear it. And in the sense that it is a moment of joy/rapture and joining with the Lord. It is not a shout that everyone will hear. there are a lot of loud voices and cries in the book of Revelation, yet not everyone will hear it. When Jesus was on earth, He stood and cried, not everybody heard Him. there are shouts and cries everyday that not everyone hears. other scriptures that corroborate the rapture are given below.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

DrummaBoy: ^^^

Image you have not responded to the matter on ground either through your own discuss or through the Wesley commentary. The question is did Jesus stay three days, three nights in the grave as he said he would?

Indeed. If you want a trite answer,well the answer is "Yes, Jesus stayed three days and three nights in the earth of the earth as He said He would". Happy? The long post was just to show how it adds up, and what is really meant in context of certain phrases. Like when one says "I'm coming" or "This gadget is bad", for instance, you would do well to understand the context instead of looking for brighter grammar add ups.

Tgirl4real: Is the teaching of "Rapture" scriptural?

According to 11Thess 2, will Christians be around during the time of the antichrist?

Is "rapture" and the second coming of Christ one and same event?

Are we going to be part of the great tribulation?

Is Matt 24 referring to the Jews or to all Christians?

i beg to differ against the direction of the thread. i'm positively certain that the rapture is NOT the "second coming of Christ", and that the rapture precedes the Great Tribulation. Permit me to 'explain' with scriptures. And to note that correct doctrine is not exactly salvation or holiness, as good as it may be. It is not an avenue for condemnation except of course, one is preaching doctrines of devils which are way of the mark. Even the apostles were not perfect in knowledge but had to be led by the Spirit of God. The important thing though is to be ready and to watch for the Son of God is coming soon.
The rapture is what they call the catching up of saints to meet the Lord Jesus in the air. The Second coming is the Lord Jesus COMING to earth with many of His saints. They are both different obviously. One involves ascending to meet, the other involves a descending and touchdown with saints.
one RAPTURE verse- 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
one SECOND COMING verse- Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

During the rapture, there are disappearances, but during the second coming, there are appearances and revealings. These events are a mystery, and therefore not a pre-requisite(the knowledge) for anything important. They can also easily be mixed up or even lumped together as seemingly one. Like in the Old Testament Bible, we have the coming of the Messiah lumped together as one. but we now understand from hindsight that there was a mystery church age inbetween and that some passages actually refer to a SECOND coming.

Matthew 24 is quite 'technical' and many assumptions made if we do not get what Jesus is talking about. What Jesus is talking about can be seen from the question He was asked.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Jeus is asked 3 questions here, and it will do us well to 'rightly divide the one long answer Jesus gave. Thethree questions are;
1) Tell us, when shall these things be? i.e the things talked about in verse 2, where Jesus talked of the temple being destroyed. When will the temple be destroyed in other words.
2) Tell us, and what shall be the sign of thy coming? What is the sign of your second coming. The signs of course would include the Great Tribulation, and the disappearing acts that we call rapture.
3) Tell us, and what shall be the sign of the end of the world? Jesus' coming is NOT the end of the world. he will come to reign. it is after this reign that the world will end, as Peter talks of in his second epistle, and as Jesus severally says that "heaven and earth will pass away". Hopefully, we can explore on these bases.

DrummaBoy: I am enjoying the religious forum more these days as I am finding light on thorny theological issues more in here than elsewhere (after the bible, ofcourse).

I am calling the house to help out with the above theses: Did Jesus spend Three days and three nights in the grave as he said he will?

I came across a pamphlet once (can't remember those who authored it) that proved that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday. The following Thursday was a high day and a Sabbath (that is confused with Saturday, today), that he remained in the grave until Saturday evening when he rose up. Then appeared to the disciples early Sunday morning.

The good Friday crucifixion does not add up. That will make him remaining in the grave for two nights and one day, if he is to be believed to rise up Sunday morning.

I buy the Wednesday crucifixion and Saturday resurrection. What do U think?

If we can answer this we may be able to uncover more truth lost to church dogmas.

Thanks in advance.

First and foremost, it is to be stated that a social forum is not exactly one of God's primary ways of giving light on thorny theological issues. the primary is stated below.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

It borders on pride to be unteachable by the people whom God has given us as our primary ministers. Howbeit, to your question, in the hope that you have not already rejected the answer before reading it, as is common of followers of men.
Did Jesus spend Three days and three nights in the grave as he said he will? Here is what Jesus said,
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The question then should be, how was Jonah three days and three nights in the whale's belly? Is it how we understand it today to be 72 exact hours? Was Jesus exactly in the 'heart of the earth', wherever that is? Has the whole church from the early christians till date been so dull and blinded to common sense as not to see this new discovery that perhaps Jesus died on Tuesday or Wednesday? The way its going, i'll not be surprised if someone runs along telling us to forsake church tradition that tells us that Jesus died on a cross, all in the name of liberty.

If we find ourselves so lazy as to study the scriptures indeed, whether these things are so, have we bothered to check up from elders and Bible scholars and commentaries, on these "thorny" issues? Because, the scriptures so clearly and overwhelmingly tell us that Jesus was raised on the THIRD day. If He died on a Friday, the only third day would be a Sunday, and to add to the well known fact that a sabbath day was all that inbetween. There is no biblical account to suggest that there were two sabbaths or more inbetween. it is simply people wrapping and twisting some phrase from the Bible into their ideas and reasonings.
So, how was jonah in the whale for three days and nights?
Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Jon 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Jonah was in the whale's belly in a conscious way, with an ability to pray and repent, even though all saw him as dead and forgotten/finished. In the same way, Christ descended, led captivity captive, and took the keys of hell and death, when all thought He was forgotten/finished. He was not busy counting seconds and minutes to synchronise Jonah's time under. The phrase night and day is so commonly used in scriptures, as will be seen shortly. Not to re-invent the wheel as it were. Permit me to quote a commentary Wesley John's explanatory notes on this verse.
Mat 12:40 - "Three days and three nights - It was customary with the eastern nations to reckon any part of a natural day of twenty - four hours, for the whole day. Accordingly they used to say a thing was done after three or seven days, if it was done on the third or seventh day, from that which was last mentioned. Instances of this may be seen, 1Ki_20:29(And they pitched one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined: and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians a hundred thousand footmen in one day) and in many other places. And as the Hebrews had no word to express a natural day, they used night and day, or day and night for it. So that to say a thing happened after three days and three nights, was with them the very same, as to say, it happened after three days, or on the third day. See Est 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.
; Est 5:1 Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.
; Gen_7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
; Exo_24:18 Exo 24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and got him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.
Mar 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

sigh,
hopefully

frosbel: ^^

I really do not have the time to address ALL your emotional outbursts.

What you need is to stop following and listening to the WOF or WOLF movement, and maybe you will begin to understand the gospel.

It's the same way your handler flees when i make effort to resist him, i'm not bothered.

frosbel: Stop getting emotional and accusatory, I did not deliberately cut it out of your post.

Here is what i said, and it is the truth.

"Yes oh, blood cried. that is what the bible said and i gave you three places where the Bible said it. You deliberately cut it out of my post to make your point to the gullible. here they are again."

Blood crying is a symbolic language used to depict the testimony of a thing , in the case of Abel his innocence , in the case of Jesus the atonement and remission of sins.

Surely you do not think that blood cries in the literal sense of the word.

SMH .

What is with you and word jangle. What is a testimony? Is a testimony unreal? Is a testimony not evidence, proof and verification? i gave you three witnesses from scriptures that prove that blood speaks, instances been that of Abel and of Jesus. God told Cain that his brother's blood was speaking. Also, the Holy Spirit tells us in Hebrews that Jesus' blood is speaking better things than Abel's. Yes, they are testifying. You may choose to believe it or find yet another word to obfuscate issues. i choose to believe God's Word. Don't tell me that the blood of Jesus is not speaking for me, and helping me to overcome the devil. If you do not believe in the literal, i do. And if you are interested in forcing us to believe otherwise, you would do well to tell us what God's Word is symbolic of.

We are not Muslims or Catholics who discourage questions and curiosity. If Truth is Truth it must stand the test of scrutiny.

God is 100% Light and can neither partake of a LIE nor be part of it, so do not berate me for testing all things as commanded in the bible.

You really come across as a programmed robot who believes anything and everything without factual evidence and testing all things.

The day we stop asking questions is the day we move into utter darkness.

Christians do not ask foolish questions in the name of standing the test of scrutiny. i don't need to bombard a loved one with an exam to prove that their love is real. i do not need to do all sorts of test on my family so that they stand the mighty test of scrutiny. You are not testing all things, you are simply showing your unbelief of plain scripture passages and seeking to force such on the undiscerning. Talk about testing all things, you continue to fail in that area. i remember asking you if you have eternal life and till date you haven't given an answer that clearly states so. i remember you saying that the christian God is not your God. i remember asking you if any of Jesus' words and parables are impossible. You fled like the devil from such tests, perhaps you do not have this light that you are baying about.

Surely, you should be astounded because i was too. You said "The whole book of revelation just like Daniel is prophetic and symbolic" And by that you are implying that nothing in the books can be understood plainly but must be given some private meaning approved by frosb. i simply quoted to you a verse out of many others that abound, that is straight and simple for any literate to understand. Here it is again.
1. That it is symbolic is not in question. i never objected that fact or even raised it. That it is symbolic does not mean that one cannot read and comprehend.
Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
What is the above verse symbolic of? Do we need some spirit to interpret this simple grammar to us?

John saw a future revelation, and he used very symbolic language just like Jesus used parables to describe future events.

You have to start studying and stop insinuating.

And this is your reply to this below? i would be surprised if you could withstand it, you're a true Libertine.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
What is this symbolic of? Is this not plain enough english that any body should understand? All these trying to hold us to ransom by private interpretation would not work. Some people tried it in the past by making all scriptures latin. Now you are here waving symbolic in our faces like we should all go and sleep since it is symbolic. Sorry, we also have the Spirit of God.

i see you could not cope with the rest of the post. It's a similar thing you did with that post filled with pearls as regards this thread(that Ben gave). You were more interested in diversions and the source of the article. As usual, your aim was not to comprehend the truth stated but to look for faults from the author. You are past learning, or is it 'ever learning'. Your aim is to confuse and frustrate others until they 'fall'.then you can condemn them and say "see christian". i have warned you before and will state it again, your pride is a big problem in your life.

The irony is that lycious gives us his/her view on what is sin or not and says the holy spirit should be the one doing it.

Lovebirds, so sweet.

BERNIMOORE: Image123



probably in a shaddy environment, indeed! birds of same feathers! soiling the Deeper life church by supporting obvious fraud

i didn't want to reply or comment before, seeing the gross foolishness in the questions asked, and how i would rather avoid foolish questions. Nevertheless, i would answer for posterity. i said "probably outside in a shady environment". you would need to learn both the spelling and meaning of the word "shady". A dictionary will help you. i was not there, and so i cannot assert things forcefully like you are doing. however, i can make sensible conclusions and assumptions from what is on ground having attended weddings before and having taken pictures before. Light and exposure of camera lens affect picture quality and complexion. you do not even need to pass O'levels to know this.

why dont you comment on these further alterations on the pics supplied by your friend below to fool people like you;

[/b]provide a parent picture of B1, now google SAMPLE A and you will find plenty pictures marching it, which shows SAMPLE B2 as authentic


1, [b]why the big hat? and small hat, comment on that oryou need big lenses to see it the same woman in green wearing big hat in SAMPLE B1 and small hat in SAMPLE B2 respectively in the same occassion? haba? compare to parent picture SAMPLE A we have a small hat, why is it big in your friends photoshoped pics, and he needs support from people like you to save face,

i sincerely do not see any big hat or small hat. Probably what you are forcing yourself to see may be due to what is called distance. The more distant a thing is from the camera, the smaller it becomes, pretty common sense. Another thing is that it is not out of this world for a lady to change her hat. It does not need for a bill to be passed for that to happen, neither does it require great length of time like days or years.

do you fear him? then why cant you ask him first before you pass insult?

2, why are we having two set of hands, a cut out of hands resting on another hand besisde the flowers, or is the flower standing on nothing?

The woman(the mother) is likely holding her hand or something. i do not see these details that you are assuming, sincerely. Did you notice at close range that the two of them are not putting on jewellery, do you notice that? i doubt, you cannot notice that kind of thing. Did you notice that in every other picture passed on the internet including the one supposedly from the engagement and the one she was in skirt suit? Talk about blinded minds, blinded by hatred and devil.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

you are making a case for two pics, while your oga;OLA was making case of one picture, but same picture altered, but you are trying to make up the fraud detected in the one he said to be untouched by saying 'probably' (you are not sure and should have shut up) taking in a shaddy place, as in when someone is a place where someone do make a shaddy deal, like kidnappers hideots, drug pedlers, and rapists hideout, they do hide in an uncompleted and unplastered shaddy houses like these below;

Most of what you have said in this quote terribly incoherent and is best ignored and i will do just that. i'm not making a case for any particular number of pictures, i'm simply stating the obvious and being objective. You, on the other hand and your fans, are only bent on hailing anything that brings that wedding and church into negative view. Ola only brought up the other picture which was/is clearer.

unplastered building exposing conduit wires!

i'm sorry, it seems the person who hinted that some of you have not wedded or being to a wedding might be right after all. So you think the couple should be responsible for plastering every building and tarring every road that they would pass through on their wedding day. You are unbelievable to be mild. In wedding occasions, several guests take pictures from different angle and all through out the ceremony, and in every place that the couple passes through and does. they even go ahead to post such pictures on the internet via facebook, chat applications, email and so on. It is not rocket science that such pictures from unprofessional photographers can find their way to a forum on the internet. In most weddings, there is a time allocated for special pictures, where the professional photographer finds a 'nice' landscape where this can be done. He/she also helps in arranging the people and helping and suggesting various poses. That is quite different from the many more spontaneous pictures that everyone takes all throughout the ceremony. It is quite a disappointment that one has to give you such basic orientation on the religion section of a public forum. Please, do not disgrace yourself any further, i plead.

BERNIMOORE: OLAADEGBU



you are derailing this tread, im not a jw, so needless of this diversionary topic, create another tread for that, severaly we have asked you to defend yourself on this obvious manipulationthat you \re guilty of, but you are shouting God, this God that! when you dont even know God!

you resort to shouting torment in hell, torment in hell just because i ask you to defend a fraudulent pics you posted to mislead people, but to the wrong person you are shouting, because im not even moved an inch from my stand, but i continue to watch your show of shame dancing around the truth

Are you tislight? You are more interested in convicting Ola of sin than correcting tislight of his unchristlike and ungentlemanly actions. Derailing indeed, you wey don derail teytey.

frosbel: Blood crying ? No wonder you religious people cannot think and reason out the truth, instead you lead multitudes into the same error wherein you are trapped.

Yes oh, blood cried. that is what the bible said and i gave you three places where the Bible said it. You deliberately cut it out of my post to make your point to the gullible. here they are again.

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
God said blood was speaking(crying), you want me to reason it away as untrue. The supernatural cannot be reasoned away. the virgin birth cannot be reasoned away, neither can many of the miracles like feeding five thousand with five loaves or walking on water, or resurrection, or parting the River Jordan. If all you can make of this is give us the atheist line of rant that believers are just religious people cannot think and reason out the truth, instead leading multitudes into the same error wherein they are trapped. It shows the spirit driving you. You cannot hide smoke. i ask again, what are these things symbolic of?

1. The whole book of revelation just like Daniel is prophetic and symbolic , and provides a look into future events as planned by Almighty GOD.

2. By deduction from point 1, there were no souls under the altar at the time of John seeing and recording these events.

3. These souls are under the altar for how long ? A millennia ? Does it sound logical to you that millions of souls will be under an altar, almost imprisoned till the time of reckoning. You call this being in heaven, lol.

Read revelation prayerfully and carefully, have a pen and pad handy, no rush, dedicate at least a month, stop this wishy washy , religious, shallow and almost brainwashed approach to bible study.

1. That it is symbolic is not in question. i never objected that fact or even raised it. That it is symbolic does not mean that one cannot read and comprehend.
Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
What is the above verse symbolic of? Do we need some spirit to interpret this simple grammar to us?

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
What is this symbolic of? Is this not plain enough english that any body should understand? All these trying to hold us to ransom by private interpretation would not work. Some people tried it in the past by making all scriptures latin. Now you are here waving symbolic in our faces like we should all go and sleep since it is symbolic. Sorry, we also have the Spirit of God.

2. Again, you introduce another fallacy. There is no argument as to whether there were no souls under the altar at the time of John seeing and recording these events or there are. The point given is that after some folks died, the Bible records that their souls were under the altar in heaven, and that they were not zombie souls. They were communicating and being communicated with. They were even given robes according to the text.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
You said that once humans die, that is the end, until when they are resurrected. But i have shown from scriptures, instances that negate your assertions. Deal with that, or rather, believe that.

3. You want to know how long, whether it is a millenia, or whether it is logical? Tell me how logical it is to walk on water, or to resurrect from the dead, or to be born of a virgin, or to rub spittle in a blind man's eyes and he sees. the point again was about souls being alive after physical death, not about how long they are alive after physical death. i have shown you what the Bible has to say about this. It is left for you to believe the Bible or your logical articles.
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
He does not say that God will be a God of the living. that will be the case if Abraham and other saints are not yet alive. God is NOT a God of the dead, He is a God of the living.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

What shall we say then, the Word of God demands a reaction from us. When we hear the Word of God, there is always something to do. We may believe or disbelieve, we may obey or disobey, but we do not sit on the fence. What shall we say then, what should be our reaction to all these chapter 1 to 5? Haven now known that the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: What is to now be our reaction? Having now observed that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Do we now abuse the 'might' in the statement? 'Might' connotes an advice, of something that ought to be done. So, what shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Shall we let sin to reign so that grace MIGHT reign? Of course, the answer is a NO.
Grace is God's help, God's mercy over man. It is like our 911, only better. God's help is a very present help in time of need. Now, logically, when do we need help? When do we need grace? Is it before we fall or after we fall? It is at both times. God's grace is sufficient. But many frustrate and make light of God's grace. They turn God's grace and help into lasciviousness, something carnal and wanton, something excessive. What i mean is that they prefer to call out/reach out for grace when they fall, not before. It is like someone who is walking on a narrow road, and is about to fall off. He can call for help so that he would not fall at all. He can also call for help after he has fallen. Help would come, God's grace is abundant. But would you not rather call for grace before the fall? Don't you know that you may fall and die. Or that you may fall and call for help and recover, but never fully recover? And the time wasted in recovery could have been more profitably used? But this is the way many take divine grace. We can come boldly and obtain grace to help in time of need. But folks do not see the period of temptation as a time of need. They fall into the temptation, then they ask for grace "Oh God, help me, I have fallen again, I drink sin like water, I am just a sinner, Your grace is amazing". But we need not fall at all in the first place. Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

God forbid, In no way, May it never be, Of course not, Certainly not.We should not continue in sin because there is grace. We don't continually have accidents because we have access to the best medical care. That is not the point or goal of grace. How shall we. We that are dead to sin. Here, the writer starts to talk on a death which is not physical. We, believers are dead. Death is separation. We believers are separated from sin. We should not live any more in sin. We should not go on sinning. Not because we cannot sin or whatever, we should not sin. It is not supposed to be in our new nature to sin, if truly we have become new creatures. (Some people twist the scriptures to mean that even when we sin, God does not see it as sin. Some say we cannot sin, in the sense that we are not capable of sin. So whatever our actions, God does not consider them sin. This is not the Bible's stance however. The Bible teaches that we should not sin. Paul here reasons with his audience as to why we should not sin. That we are dead to sin, so how and why should we live any longer in sin?)

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?[/color

Paul begins to explain the reason why we are dead. The scriptures is a very wonderful book. You know, it tells us that as sinners, we were dead. Now again, as believers we are dead. So we need to follow carefully to understand what we are dead/separated from in each case. He says "Know ye not". Some things are expected to be known by us. When we are saved, born again. We are supposed to continue in FELLOWSHIP and in the doctrine of God. We are supposed to learn. It is not enough to give birth to a child. That, as joyous and as important as it is is not the end of life. Actually, it is the beginning. The child ought to be nurtured and ought to grow, and be trained and educated. But some people, when they give their lives to Christ, that's where it ends. They don't want to be visited or 'disturbed'. And then, they continue to make reference to some day or time when they gave their lives to Christ. That is just the beginning. There are things you ought to KNOW afterward. Know ye not? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? As many of us, not all of us. Some people believed and were not baptised. Some people were baptised and did not believe. But Jesus said that he that believes AND is baptized will be saved.He said to baptize all nations in the name of the the Lord.As many of us as were baptized into Jesus were baptized into His death. This is something that needs to be known, according to this verse. Its a pity how unserious and shallow believers take this baptism. Every believer should be eager to be baptised. And should be ready to scale whatever hurdle or test in front. The eunuch asked, what is hindering me from being baptised? He was ready. Today, many are not ready to go through perhaps baptism class/ discipleship class/ conversion class to be baptized If anything is hindering you from being baptized, please scale through and be baptized.

[color=#990000]Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

When we are baptized, it is symbolic of our burial with Christ into death. We are dead to sin, and we are buried with Christ. And as Christ was resurrected, raised up, we also should be raised up. there should be new life. Every believer ought to have a new life. People around you ought to know that something happened. you also ought to know. There should be a difference. Christ walked in newness of life after His resurrection. And it is the same way we should walk in newness of life. It should be a heaven minded life. A life set on the ascension and on the goal of witnessing. A life that wants to see the Father before any man or woman.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Knowing this! There are certain that just must be known. Seek knowledge, grow in grace and in the knowledge of God. God's will is to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. This is done through us. The Bible says My people perish for lack of knowledge. We should not be babies in the faith or in Knowledge. babies do not know. 1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men
If you see a billionaire's baby, and a pauper's baby, they are the same simple babies. They do not know. They behave and react almost the same. They do not know what they have or not. But as they grow up, the difference becomes more evident. When we grow in knowledge, we ought to get a point where we KNOW that our old man is crucified with Him. If we do not know, it will barely matter. It is the knowledge that is power. God has done a lot for us and is Word is filled with what should be, the right standard. But experience varies. Our experience as believers varies with knowledge. Experience is different from position. This is a child of a king, that's position. the child may have that information hidden from him. But experience is different. Positionally, our old man is crucified with Christ. Experientially, we need to make it so. Our 'old man' is associated with our flesh. This is the first time out of three that this phrase 'old man' is used in this context. The three times are in three different epistles, once in each. We may assume that the primary audience knew what was meant by that phrase, probably from different and former teachings and messages. The old man is crucified that the body of sin might be destroyed. The old man is associated with the flesh. unfortunately for us, the old man remains with us all through life, as we have to carry that cross daily. The old man is the "I" crucified with Christ. It needs to be crucified. We need to know it, and experience it crucified, that the body of sin may be destroyed. It is when that happens that we will not serve sin.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

There you have it again. We are dead. A believer is supposed to be dead, and buried and resurrected with Jesus into a new man, newness of life. the old man stays crucified, that one no die. He has to be put off as it were, and we walk in new life. We were dead in sins, but now we are dead in Christ. 2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we are dead with Him, we should be free from sin. We should not be living in sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Now, if we are dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him. All things are possible to him that believes. before conversion we believe, for justification we believe, for prayer we believe, for newness of life we believe. He that comes to God MUST believe. It is when we believe that we experience the realities and privileges of living with Christ. Our knowledge must mix with faith. the Word of God must mix with faith to profit us. Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more, we ought to know that. And in the same vein, we should not die again. We should not sin again. Even so we also should walk in newness of life. He died to sin and lives to God. We should also do the same. We die by baptism and now we should live unto God, for God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See yourself, consider yourself, think of yourself, count yourself, regard yourself, and include yourself to be dead indeed to sin. And alive to God through Jesus. Amen.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

this is plain enough what Paul is driving at. He is showing his audience that they have a work to do, a part to play in their living. Even though God has done so much for us, and given us the gift of righteousness. Still, there needs to be that part of personally appropriating these things. Remember, they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness. It depends on how much you receive. God has made you righteous, but it becomes evident as you make it. You are to let not sin reign in you. It is not God that will do that one. You as an individual must have a purpose of heart, that sin will not reign in this and through this body. Not through lying, not through stealing, not through immorality, not through anger. Sin will not have an in-road. It is a partnership between you and God. your part,Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Do not yield. It means to resist, to not surrender. Do not allow your body to be used as an instrument of unrighteousness. Unrighteousness has been briefly mentioned in chapter one. Do not be involved in maliciousness, envy, hate, disobedience etc. Instead, you now yield to God. God regards your will, you need to yield it to Him. Those that are truly alive from the dead yield to God. You cannot claim to be alive and not yield to God. The proof that you are alive is your yielding to God, as an instrument of righteousness.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

By one man, sin entered into the world. By one man. Of course, we know from the OT Bible who that man was, Adam. Sin came into the world by Adam. Even though he, Adam did not accept responsibility in the Genesis account but blamed another, the Bible and the Spirit of God's position is that sin entered the world by Adam. Many people today still have the adamic nature of blaming others, instead of judging themselves and getting the best solution. Sin came into the world by Adam, and then death followed sin. When Adam was created, there was no sin and there was no death IN THE WORLD. Maybe sometime in the past, maybe some other place, but when Adam was created, there was no sin and there was no death IN THE WORLD. It's like we talk of eradicating a disease in a place. If for instance, polio is eradicated from Lagos state in 2013. It is possible for someone(Mr P) to carelessly carry it in again in future 2020. We can then say polio entered Lagos state through malicious Mr P. It is not however stated that there was never polio in Lagos before 2020, or that there is no polio in some other place outside Lagos state.
In the same vein, sin entered our world by Adam, one man. And then sin brought death and all its relatives and friends, sorrow, sickness etc. And then it says for all have sinned. goes to show how one little fire, one wrong, from one man can influence ALL. That's why wrong should be stopped before it grows big and not left unattended to. There are many false teachings and false practices left unattended to by many who feel they are safe and it doesn't affect them or their niche. But over time, it may become unstoppable and real trouble.
Ecc 9:18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

There is a parenthesis here that begins in this verse and ends in verse 17. Sin was in the world until the law. Many people think that sin came with the law. People think that there was no sin when God had not given Israel the law. No, there was. There was sin before the law, and there was sin after the law. The difference the law brought was that sin was now accounted, charged, imputed.Sin was now put to account. People became 'richer' in sin than the other. People were not punished ACCORDINGLY or IN PROPORTION to their own work. But now that the law came, people could be punished accordingly, because their sin is in their account balance as it were. So its not that there was no judgement for sin before the law. Of course there was, Cain was before Moses, the world of Noah was before Moses, Sodom and Gomorrah was before Moses. People were punished for sin. Ignorance is not bliss, and is not an excuse against judgement. Some people do not want to hear, or study or read the Word of God because they do not want to be guilty of not obeying. It does not work that way. It's like not having a meter billing system, and you are using electricity or water. You will be billed still, and you might not even like the bill or feel unjustly treated by the bill. But you will be billed still. There is judgement for every sinner, and all have sinned.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

NEVERTHELESS, think about that. That is , in spite of that, in spite of there been no law, death reigned from Adam to Moses. Between the period from the first man to the time when the law was given to Moses, death reigned. Death had come in by sin and it reigned supreme, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Now, we would think that Adam did not commit any of our great sins, our "top 10" sins. No murder, no fornication, no idolatry and co. He 'just ate'. But God took His sin as grievous, and people who did not even do up to that 'small' sin also had death reigning over them. Death here is not just physical death because physical death still continued when Moses came and after, and even till date when Jesus Himself has come and after. Death here is more than just physical, it also had to do with the spiritual. Death is separation. The Bible talks of believers been dead(e.g Colossians 3.3). Romans 6(our next chapter) talks more on this death which is not just physical.
Adam is a figure of him that was to come. Him that was to come is Jesus Christ. Adam is a figure, a type, a picture of Jesus. He Adam is the first Adam, while Jesus is the last Adam.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
He is like Jesus in that He is the first of our kind. We derive our nature and being from the Adam that we are of.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.

Through Adam's offence, all of humanity is dead, suffers death. Much more, by God's grace and gift, ALL of Christ's have life. We should challenge ourselves to enjoy more, much more and all that Jesus did and lived for us. We should drop and abandon our first Adam qualities and covet and possess our last Adam qualities. Jesus Christ had to share in humanity. It was necessary that He became man Jesus Christ, so that we can partake of His nature and life. So that he could readily be our example. We cannot follow angels, and fly like them or whatever they do night and day. But we can live as Jesus lived. He is our man, our Adam, for those who believe and partake of this grace of God.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

They WHICH RECEIVE abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. What we have to do is RECEIVE. Receiving is very important, very critical. God has done so much, God has done a lot. But we have to receive. That part is also so important. God gave His Son. He died for the world, He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. He is our righteousness and sanctification, He became poor that we might be rich, he is our healer, saviour and King. he is this and that. But we have to receive. It is unto you ACCORDING TO your faith. It is not according to what God has done. In God's side, He has done all things, freely given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. He says "ALL THINGS are yours". The problem is at our end, the receiving end. They which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness. Not everybody receives unfortunately. And not everyone that dares to believe and receive actually receive the same thing. There is ABUNDANCE of grace and righteousness. Some receive just small, meagre, scrappy grace. Little righteousness. Those kind of people are saved, they are also believers. They are also 'going to Heaven' as it were. They are equally part of the church, the body of Christ. And sorrily, they are the majority in the faith. They do not reign. They cannot reign in life, because they have not received ABUNDANCE. They, i wish we were many more a part of that 'They'. They which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. In life, in this life. Not just when we all get to Heaven, that we ought to sing and shout the victory. Reigning is not limited to eternity. We can reign. He died so that we might reign. There is a title written on His thigh, it is "KING OF KINGS".

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Quite repetitive this passage, for emphasis and for understanding. The same thing is been said over and over in different ways, with the hope that the reader would get the message. By the righteousness of Jesus, the gift came upon ALL MEN. That it is a gift itself connotes that it is not earned but free, a present. The phrase "free gift" is used for emphasis that this salvation is FREE. There is no excuse or poverty to miss it. All you have to do is receive. The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. The gift is not only for Jews or for Israel or for Asia, or for white people. The gift is for ALL MEN.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Jesus'obedience makes us righteous. Adam's disobedience made us sinners. Followers of Jesus are obedient people. As obedient children.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The law entered that the offence might abound!! Can you imagine that? God gave us the law to show man his sins. The law was not given to make us righteous, it cannot. That is not its primary purpose. No one can keep the law to be righteous, whatever law and wherever that law is found. Righteousness is a gift from God as we have seen in verse 17. Adam said he was not guity, he had not sinned. he said it is someone else. His wife said the same thing, and so do his children till date. So God sent the law to show Adam's children that they have sinned. All have sinned. But till date, people still try to prove their righteousness. How they have tried, and how it is others that are bad. Some even say it is God that is bad, that is unfair. Some will blame church or pastors, or many other hypocrites. And sin continues to reign. Sin reigns and death reigns. But God's will is that grace should reign. God's will is that we should reign. There is grace available, grace in abundance, grace greater than all our sin.

shdemidemi: I think I will try to put some light on the difference between the gospel of Christ Paul preached to the one Peter preached.

Lets start this by going to the book of Acts 2:36

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This is my last reply on this line of thought from you(on this thread). You clearly have decided to inconveniently assume that this is the only message and audience that Peter preached to in his entire ministry. The Bible shows us that he preached to both Jews and Gentiles in other places, and we do not have a complete record of ALL Peter's messages. It is why i continue hitting on this cumulative understanding and interpretation of scriptures. You are simply cherry picking.

Lets take this verse slowly by dividing what Peter actually meant by the statement-

"Therefore (because of all that has just taken place. Israel has had The Messiah for three years, performing signs and miracles, they crucified Him, God raised Him from the dead, and sent the Holy Spirit)

let all the house of Israel..."

We can clearly see the Peter's audience here. Now you can’t put us Gentiles in this verse, unless you force it. Peter is speaking to Jews on Covenant grounds. It’s the fulfilling of the Covenant which God made with Abraham.

Are the gentiles not to also know that God has made that same Jesus both Lord and Christ.He and we should say this same message to everyone. Jesus said to go into all the world and preach this same message. He never talked about two different gospels. There is NO BIBLE VERSE that talks of two different gospels. You are the one making things up. Everyone was involved and accused in His death.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

if we move to Acts 3:24,25 (Peter speaking)

"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." [/b]What days? Everything that has just taken place. According to Peter, the Crucifixion, Resurrection, ascension and coming of the Holy Spirit was prophesied. Look at verse 25:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant (only the Nation of Israel. All prophecy is directed to the Nation of Israel, they are the ones that will be at the core of these prophetic events.

i want to believe that you did not deliberately leave out verse 26.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 [b]Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
It says in proper context that all these message was to the jews FIRST. You say that it was to them ONLY. Let God be true.

Even the horrible events in Revelation will be directed primarily at the Jew. But the whole world will also reap the fallout from these events. Jeremiah 30 tells us it’s the time of Jacob’s trouble) which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, ‘And in thy seed (through the Nation of Israel) shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.’"

So Peter is on Covenant ground. He’s still on the basis that everything that has been since Abraham, that is: the Nation of Israel was to receive the Redeemer, The Messiah, The King and the Kingdom, and it would be through Israel that God would gather the Gentiles.

agreed. The natural jews have promises and plans primarily for them and we are coming to that in this book of Romans. But it should not be cut out that believing gentiles have been engrafted into the Tree.

In Acts 2: 37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah for God to pick up where He had left off. He would have sent back The King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also tells them this in Acts 3:26. Look at the message. Peter says, "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. John was the herald of The King, and his message was, "Repent and be baptized." That was for the Nation of Israel.

This is what i have been saying except for the last sentence which is in bold. This is the gospel, and Jesus Christ commanded it to be preached to everyone not just for Jews.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This is the gospel to be preached to every creature and in all the world. Believe and be baptised. They are all intertwined and that is what makes the gospel message so simple. A living faith would naturally repent. A faith in Jesus is evidenced by repentance. One does not have to academically explain all the concepts of atonement, forgiveness, redemption, justification, grace, repentance, faith, conversion etc in a gospel message for it to be called/termed complete. All this things happen at the same time when a sinner is converted. Call it conversion, born again, new man, new life, its the same one gospel that we are talking about. It is not only for the nation of Israel. Paul himself preached repentance to gentiles.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
Act 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul also preached FIRST to the Jews and then to the gentiles. It is not only Peter. Paul also taught baptism to gentiles.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
We are all one in baptism. It is not only for jews. We are buried with Christ in baptism. When Paul went round preaching, his converts were baptised.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

I don’t call Jewish believers Christians because the Bible doesn’t, but many people do. Remember believers were first called Christians at Antioch, and not Jerusalem. So they’re not Christians per se, they are Jewish believers in the Kingdom Gospel, and the gospel they believed for salvation is that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel, but they’re still under the Law. They’re still practicing Temple worship.

The name 'christian' was not given from heaven. It was more of a derogatory name that the gentiles/unbelievers used to describe believers. It's like calling someone pastor or MOG or S.U or Mother of Jesus, in a derogatory manner. But God caused it to work together for our good. Peter called the people he wrote to "christians" , you are the one insisting that he only wrote to jews. Any disciple or follower of Jesus is a christian.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Jesus is the Messiah, not just of Israel but of the whole world. He is the Lamb that took/takes away the sins of the whole world. He is the Christ, God has made Him so. Christ means Messiah.

Compare Peter's response with Paul’s answer to the Gentile in Acts Chapter 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?

Acts 16:31

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house


Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, and if that was the criteria it would have been in here.

Like i have earlier explained, preaching the gospel is as simple as it gets. It is not mandatory to state all the lofty terms involved in the transaction. That one is for theology class and seminary, or as one grows in grace and in the knowledge of what God has done for us. Evidently, Paul baptised the gentile jailor if you bothered to read the next few verses.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
After saying "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, they went ahead and still told the man and his house other things(the Word of God). And he was baptized. Here are other gentiles that were baptized. God cammands everyone everywhere to REPENT.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Gala 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That was the Jewish program, and by this time it has fallen through the cracks because Israel is rejecting it again. God has now turned to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul, without Israel. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ."

Answered above already. You have decided to introduce the word "only". The Bible puts "and" instead. That is, apart from the phrase "Believe on the Lord", other things were discussed.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Please, endeavour to truly study the Word without bringing shame to it, and if you ever have to divide it, learn and pray to RIGHTLY divide it.
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Now when you know the rest of Paul’s message, he only had one Gospel to believe: "That Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose from the dead." You can find that message in many places in Paul’s letters, for example I Corinthians 15:1-4. Believe the Gospel. And it’s no different for Gentiles today, and the Jew as well.

All the apostles preached this too as i have severally shown you in my previous answer. i'll re-quote just one passage for emphasis.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

You search Paul’s letters and show me one place where Paul teaches repentance and baptism for Salvation. You won’t find it. Paul doesn’t teach it. Paul’s message is a different economy and you can’t mix them. A lot of people try to. Our Lord didn’t mix them and neither should we. The verses in Galatians 2:7-9 exist because they were two different messages. That’s why Peter says Paul’s message of Salvation is hard for him to understand in II Peter 3:15-16. To the Jew it was repent and be baptized. To the Gentile it is believe the Gospel. See how simple that is.

Already addressed. i've shown you this from the Acts where Paul practically preached repentance and baptised converts. For extra, you may want to dust your concordance or make use of any Bible software's Search facility. Find the word 'repent' or 'repentance'in the Pauline epistles, thanks. No one separated the message in the Bible.there are not two different messages. What Paul writes of is two audiences and two apostles, not two different messages. Two locations can have two teachers or leaders, it doesn't automatically mean two different messages. Let us stick with what was said instead of embellishing and adding to it.
Gal 2:7 They realized that God had sent me with the good news for Gentiles, and that he had sent Peter with the same message for Jews.
Gal 2:8 God, who had sent Peter on a mission to the Jews, was now using me to preach to the Gentiles.
Gal 2:9 James, Peter, and John realized that God had given me the message about his undeserved kindness. And these men are supposed to be the backbone of the church. They even gave Barnabas and me a friendly handshake. This was to show that we would work with Gentiles and that they would work with Jews.
God sent Paul(an apostle is a Sent One) with the good news . He had sent Peter with the same message for Jews. God sent Peter at that time PRIMARILY to the Jews, and Paul PRIMARILY to the Gentiles. Note that it was not a limited thing. The two apostles and others preached to both Jews and Gentiles. But their ministry and mission, at the time Paul alluded to in this epistle, was defined. And Barnabas was also sent. It was not only Paul. That some apostles didn't write letters does not mean they were not sent or that God did not use them or that they didn't understand. God used everyone the way He pleased and thought best. Everyone has their reward, it is not competition. Today also, similarly, one might be sent or have a ministry to say Women, or the Married, or the Sick, or to Africa, or to Middle East, or to Muslims, or as an Apologetic, or whatever. there is so much to be done and the whole Body of Christ is/should function in unity. Peter NEVER says that Paul’s message of Salvation is hard for him to understand. You have again managed to add the phrase "for him". Please re-read that passage, thanks.

DrummaBoy: Look at the two pix again. So we can assume that the woman on her left was tagging along with her through out the wedding, abi? Including going into a shady environment with her? My friend, you are the one being shady here. That other pix Olaadegbu supplied us is the one that was really photoshopped: a desperate attempt to alter the real picture.

Why can you not assume that the woman on her left was tagging along with her twice during the wedding picture taking? Is it so weird and out of this world to take more than one picture with a bride? And for you to see that that woman is the bride's mother(supposedly from other photos previously seen)? Why is your mind so blinded to simple and common sense in this issue? Is it not because you are most bent as a busy bodied hypocrite to discredit that wedding and church? It appears that the meaning of the word 'shady' is lost on you. You are known for twisting Bible so no big deal if you choose to twist the meaning of my words. There is nothing photoshopped in any of the two pictures. Its what you get under different light intensities and perhaps different cameras. There is NO jewellery in any of the pictures. It is only people who want to see faults that are seeing it. What i see is a reflection of light playing on the dress and the camera. These two pictures have been on the internet for a while now, for you to claim Ola supplied it as a desperate attempt shows how desperate you are.

frosbel: Hmm, souls that are dead cannot be living in heaven, it is symbolic language, otherwise we have to agree that abels blood is actually crying from the ground.


"But the LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground!" - Genesis 4:10

That you do not believe something does not automatically mean that it is symbolic language or a parable. What is it symbolic of? i agree that Abel's blood is cried from the ground. God said it and that settles it for me.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here are three scripture witnesses telling us that Abel is still speaking after death. That it sounds incredulous to you like any other miraculous thing sounds does not mean it is not real.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

^
There are souls crying aloud under God's altar in heaven. Are you not a certain hypocrite who loves to post some self-righteous claim of following Christ and not men? Meanwhile you're the one who quotes articles and dead men most on thereligion section of this forum. God is watching, so am i.

2+2=4(correct)
2+2=3 (not correct)
2+2=3.9991 (not correct)

Which of the answers would you prefer from your spouse?

double

This is very dull thinking, kindly think out of the cage in your shabby attempts at critique. Those are TWO different pictures of the same person on the same day. One in a church, the other probably outside in a shady environment. minds can indeed be blinded.

noetic16: @ Frosbel

You are intentionally preaching a FALSE gospel. Why have you half-quoted John 3:13? Because it shows your fallacy and FALSE doctrine about the pre-existence of Jesus, which you deny, but FRAUDULENTLY claim to be saved by Jesus. Here is the scripture in full:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Thou art an Anti-Christ and a FALSE teacher.

oops

DrummaBoy: I think Goshen has responded well to U, logic, so far. And, pls, be less
caustic in the use of words. People don't respond well to abuses even in the name of criticism.

And for Goshen, as long as we are on a public forum like this one, we
open ourselves to criticisms. I would advice U respond to logic as U have been doing but with less vitroilics.

Logicboy, what are your views of Olaadegbu, alexleo, Bidam and Image 123?

you need him to recommend us or approve us, right? i understand your craving for reputable men of God but please spare me.

Logicboy03: Simple-

-the Pharisees had authority and were respected but didnt know what they were preaching.

okay. So its self coined.

What is the meaning of pharisee? That word sef don suffer.

Mr anony: ........and your evidence is?

by the way, how did you make the jump from "he might be..." to "he clearly is..."?

a leap of faith. Every man has faith given him/her by God and essential for pleasing. The question is what do each use his faith for?

DrummaBoy: This is what Jesus of Nazareth had to say about the tithe:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And same scripture can be found in Luke also.

Three things can be gotten from the Lord of glory's statemtnt
1. The pharisees pay tithe: Christians do not pay anything; there is no obligation to giving. If the pharisee give tithe then you could suggest Christians too could give tithe but according to 2 Corinthians 9:7







Paying command compulsion; giving dennotes free will. Jesus would never say Christians should pay anything, especially after he has payed it all; rather, he would have us to give as we have been given - free will.

2. Jesus says that there are weightier matters of the law; therefore, the tithe is not weighty. This is what Paul says about issues that are not weighty in the church, including that tithing (that is if you agree that tithing is not weighty):

.

We see Paul position on things that are not weighty: 1. Let every man be fully convinced in his heart: allow people the freedom to choose what to do. DO NOT IMPOSE IT ON THEM, because it is not weighty, it is not important. 2. He that tithes, it is to God he tithes, he will receive his reward. He that doesn't but chooses to give some other way, he does the same to the Lord and God is able to bless him too. We should not judge.

3. Not to leave tithing undone. This is the basis for the very weighty matter of tithing, that our churches have based thier action on. Just a statement from Christ, that does not even have the word tithe in it. It shows how unimportant it was to the Lord and how important we have made to ourselves. The response is simple: Jesus was speaking to men, pharisees, under the law, just as he was, and since he kept the law, they should also. To say other wise is to break the law and our Lord did not break the law.

Image 123, the whole trust of this rejoinder is to show you that Jesus mentioned tithing, but it was not weighty and it will do you and your other tithe collecting and giving folks to consider it that way too. If tithing was not important to our churches, why are people being almost excommunicated from the church for not tithing?

seems you need another education on tithing, seeing all you have been shown has either been forgotten or was never learned or you are among the "ever learning" crew. Jesus Christ taught tithing and said it ought to be done. Let all reputable men of God (so called) be liars and Jesus God be true.

davidylan: What goes on here is not "public rebuke" but malicious slander and deliberate denigration of frosbel's person by those who assume they hold the keys to heaven's gate. I have not been posting of late (but i spend a lot of evenings reading in the background) but it has become quite unnerving to discover thread upon thread from those who have no interest in loving rebuke but are more interested in calling others goats and candidates of hell. Funny enough it happens to come from the same crew.

I have some issues with frosbel's interpretation of hell and we have discussed this on a thread previously... its quite funny that those who label frosbel a heretic are themselves guilty of eye-popping misinterpretation of the scriptures. To each his own.

The OP is not malicious slander, can you show or explain how it is malicious or slanderous? i don't know about people holding the key of heaven's gate. i only hope that insinuations can be abandoned by all parties and verifiable claims be made about others.

double

davidylan: I'm not sure how the description of Diotrephes is applicable to frosbel. Has he loved to have pre-eminence over you? Did he refuse to recieve you? Did he prat against you with malicious words as many here have done? Has he cast out the brethren?

I have been guilty of this myself no doubt but its about time we spent our time holding each other up rather than sitting in hurried judgement over the other.

while i believe frosb fits in partially into the Diotrephes mode, the quote of the passage wasn't exactly to obtain that purpose. i gave that passage to remind us that erring ones could be publicly rebuked and warned if need be. Nothing was done hurriedly by the OP. i guess you had not been following the trend of events leading up to the OP.