₦airaland Forum

As if i knew that this 'revelation' was going to acrtually boil down to thou shall not tithe. New revelation indeed, i'm not interested in so called revelations that wake the likes of zukky from their hibernations.

hmmm, i think this is exaggerated. Nobody has the sole right to using shapes and figures. Designs can be viewed in different perspectives. Nonetheless, believers are to hate 'the garment' spotted by the world. We are not to go around deliberately posing one eyed and what not, but we are not to symbolize everything like hat funny pic up there with the melon.

It means that Peter, James and John would see the kingdom of God come with power at the mount of transfiguration some days later.

thehomer: Do you have a clear knowledge of God and salvation?

Do you want to have a clearer knowledge of God and salvation?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We come to very very very, veeery verrrry and veryyyy important and central point in the whole of the scriptures, the epistle and the chapter. This is central both in physical location and importance to life. For the umpteenth time, i have to say knowledge is very important and is power, and education remains the best legacy. Jesus said that you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will make you free. It is the KNOWLEDGE of the truth that makes you free. This verse like many others in the epistle talks about what "we" know, what the christian believer ought to know. Christians are supposed to grow in knowledge, especially the knowledge of God. We are actually expected to cast down every thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.
So we KNOW that ALL THINGS work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ALL THINGS, whatever it may be. If we could actually believe that, there will no more anxiety and worries, there will be no retaliation or anger, because everything is working together for our good. The delay and the progress, the tragedy and the testimony, the casting down caused by failures and disappointments and the lifting up, all things work together for good. To understand this, to know this, to believe this, it will literally make you free. That God can actually turn your tests to testimonies, and your pains to gains, your weakness to strength and your loss to cause of joy. In the words of a contemporary singer, let me bring it down a bit lower,
"This is the stuff that drives me crazy,
This is the stuff that's getting to me lately,
In the middle of my little mess, I forget how big I'm blessed,
This is the stuff that gets under my skin,
But I've gotta trust, You(God) know exactly what You're doing.
Might not be what I would choose, But this is the stuff You use".
This passage is not fate, neither is it encouraging fate teaching, that whatever will be will be. No, far from it. It is teaching that God has a plan for our lives, and that as His children, His great plan will ultimately be fulfilled in our lives. We are like the planets with an orbit, like a graph with a projection. Whatever the tiny little details of the planet, the ultimate end is that it will go on its orbit. Earth will not go and collide with Mars, neither will the sun decide not to rise tomorrow. Our graph line has a starting point A and an end point B. Human life is similar for those that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. The only difference is that we have a will/free will. We can decide, unlike the planets or the sun. The planets and stars obey God's will perfectly. So perfectly that astrologers can use them to measure precision in time. But humans, even believers do not obey God's will so perfectly. There is a lot of straying and wasting. We study courses we may not need or use, we make wrong friends and choices in career, marriage, child training etc. We enter into many unnecessary problems, challenges and delays. But ultimately, for them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose, there is a point B that we will arrive at. Our graph line might not be that straight, might be curved, jagged, and even quite ugly. Our life's planet might make several head on collisions, might have been severely beaten up, broken, and sorrowful, with loss of many things, but if we truly love God. All things will work together for our good.
For instance, God might want and will for you to be in Lagos, but you are somewhere else. And then everything is quite slow and hard, without lubrication. And you do not exactly feel or have that fulfilment and fullness of joy and purpose, and perhaps you've lost ground, or home, or family. Ultimately God still provides a plan and orbit for you. He still turns the wilderness into pleasant land, and at the end you get to have lived as His child and to live with Him eternally. Or maybe, God's plan was for you to be a little toughened and tried, to come out stronger and refined, and shining like diamond. And then maybe He has placed tests and allowed/permitted satan to heat you up. But you somehow strayed off that path, and everything is so nice and fast and 'favoured', but you didn't get to be the shining diamond that God wanted, for you to be a shining light to many discouraged for now, and for many years to come. Yet ultimately, you get to have lived as His child and to live with Him eternally.
But as children of God, our desire should be to please Him in all things, to fulfill His will and finish our course, to know His purpose for calling us, to realise that we are not called to live for ourselves but to live according to His purposes and plans. Our goal should be to please Him and to love Him. All things will work together for our good.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The point to note here is that God predestined those that He foreknew. The big question then is who did God not foreknow? God knows everybody. The Proverbs tell us that the clouds cannot drop dew without His knowledge. He knows the birds and the animals. He has every single detail to the number of hair on our head. So, actually, what is being said in this verse is that God had predestined everybody to be conformed to the image of His Son. But not everybody follows that. Not everybody does the will of God. We all have our own self will and free will, we can all make decisions. Look at the Israelites for instance, this same epistle says that God foreknew them.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
But whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. He foreknew the Israelites and predestinated them, but it is an open secret that the Israelites denied and rejected and crucified the Son. They didn't conform at all to the image of the Son. Till today, they are not conforming, they do not believe in the Lordship or Saviour abilities of Jesus Christ.
Where then did the church(es) get the doctrine of predestination? Certainly, not from this passage, verse or epistle. The teaching that you will go to heaven whether you like it or not, if God has written your name somewhere, is not found here. god has never predestined anybody to go to heaven or hell. God wants us to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
God wants us to be like Jesus, to be followers of Jesus, christ like.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestination is simply having a destination, a destiny. It's like an addressed letter or a transport ticket. A letter with an address that we can read its destination. This is how God pre-destined us, when He made us. He made us with a purpose. he made us to glorify Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son. He made every human being to praise Him. We were born to praise, that our lights should so shine.
Isa 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Predestinated to the praise of the glory of his grace. That's what we were all predestinated to do. Nobody was predestinated to perish or to spend eternity in the lake of fire, or to never repent. All those teachings are not found in the Bible. When the Bible talks predestination, its not even talking about these things that divide the church into factions. We are all addressed. And like every addressed letter, we can be lost in transit, as it were. Someone can change the address or change the envelope altogether. The letter itself might be damaged, or in an accident or fire. The point is, that the letter is predestined to reach place Q does not guarantee that it will reach point Q. A lot still has to be done to ensure that the letter gets to its right destination.
Or that you have a flight ticket or bus ticket that says you are going to Abuja does not guarantee your arrival at Abuja. Anything can happen at the airport and even during the travel/trip. You might not even go to the airport or might miss the bus or train in the first place. But you have a ticket, you even paid personally in your own case. Your name was there, predestined to go to Abuja. Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. Remember, many are called but few are chosen. He has called us all. The invitation "Come unto me, all ye that labour", is our call.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
What other call does anyone want or is waiting for more than that. Jesus is calling, the church is calling, the Spirit of God is calling and nudging and knocking at the door.

And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Of course, you realise by now (especially if ou have being following/reading that this is not just a one step thing. The called need to respond with faith, that justifies. And ultimately, the justified is glorified.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

The apostle in this writing begins again to write in a question and answer format. A series of sort of rhetorical questions follow. It is not that one Roman was asking the writer question and then the writer was replying. What shall we say to these things? What is our response to these things? Are we to respond at all, or just sit back in fate, that whatever happens will happen, and that everything will work for our good? Not at all. I have said, ye are gods. we can actually influence things one way or the other(though we should cautiously influence according to God's will). You don't have to remain sick, or childless, or jobless, or without the gifts and fruits of the Spirit. That disaster or loss or tragedy does not have to happen. That situation does not have to continue. Your life without victory in Jesus does not have to remain so. You do not have to continue to rise and fall into sin, or let sin have dominion over you. If God is with you, you have a world of possibilities at your feet.

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

God gave you His Son. He gave His only begotten Son. He forsook Him and allowed Him to be crucified just for you and me. Would He not give you all things? Yes He will.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who will accuse, condemn or charge God's children? Such a person must be kidding, right? helping satan with his job description. It is satanic to be an accuser of the brethren. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? ANY THING. We should not waste our time and lives in accusing or condemning people, especially children of God. It is God that justifieth, not you.
Who is he that condemns? Who has the right, the job and authority to condemn? The answer is right there in the passage. It says it is Christ.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

We are COMMANDED to preach and to testify, not commanded to judge or condemn. There is actually a verse or two that even says not to judge/condemn!
One more point is that Christ makes intercession for us. We have seen earlier in the chapter that the Holy Spirit also makes intercession for us. We should also be christlike in making intercession for others, instead of condemning and exposing them. Time will come when Christ will stop intercession and start judgement. Let us repent.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

You see that it is not all fate. Some things are poised to separate us from the love of God, so that all things do not work for good. But we shall say to these things, "We are persuaded, more than conquerors". If tribulation comes, pain or suffering in any form, we would not begin to doubt if God exists, or open threads on social network telling about how God has failed us. A child of God can be distressed, he can face famine and poverty. He can be exposed to lack, even of basics like clothing, food and shelter. There may actually be unclothedness, famine, peril, job loss, demotion etc. These are not reasons to quit, or backslide, or be separated from loving God. Sword, death, accidents, tragedy, earthquakes and floods should not separate us from the love of Christ.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The answer is NO, NAY. Tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword, bombings etc will not separate us. IN ALL THESE THINGS, we are not complaining or backsliding or drawing back. In all these things, we are more than conquerors. MORE THAN conquerors. This is only achievable by the help and grace of God/Christ that loves us. It is not to be achieved by personal effort or yoga, or psychology or stoicism, or teeth gritting or fist clenching activities. It is best achieved, nay, only achieved through Him that loved us. i can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, and God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

i am persuaded. What about you? Paul was persuaded. He was sure, he was convinced, he was purposed, that nothing will separate him from the same love. It is the same love that God had for Paul and the Romans that God has for us. We need to be persuaded that nothing will be able to separate us from that love. In this second part, Paul mentions not only tragedies and negatives but also positives. It is not only bad news or things that can make us lose our love for God. Good things, even answers to prayer can separate us from God's love. Marriage, travel abroad, promotion, children, property can separate us from the love of God. Someone's death or life can be used to separate us. Seeing the unrighteous prosper and live long life can tempt us to be separated. Your righteous model dies of cancer, while your chain fornicating and chain smoking relative is perfectly okay, living long and even getting a political position or award. A revelation or vision of an angel may be used to separate us from the love of God. Someone has seen an angel, and then he thinks he is now answerable to no one, gathers people from all over and will no more listen to the Word of God. Angel has appeared to him really, he sees visions, has connections and power. These things should not separate us from God. No principality, no new government, no new gadget or device, things to come and things present, no height attained, or depth to which we have fallen should separate us. No creature from anywhere, in a dream or in reality, no social media, no admission or course of study, no sport or event, no news, nothing. i am persuaded that nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We need to be grounded and founded on the Rock, holding the Head, haven done ALL to stand, so that we can testify "But none of these things move me".

Pastor Kun: Is that all you have to say you find nothing wrong in church parking attendants beating up one of their own members and even presenting him as an armed robber to the police who could have killed him based lies Oyedepo's thugs told on him. SMH

i'm not a busy body with something to always say, especially against the body of Christ. A David after God's heart who had being annointed and Saul rejected had nothing to say even against King Saul, how much more me, that i'm in the New Covenant era, having the whole Bible at my disposal in different versions, having Holy Ghost and the name of Jesus and grace and truth which came by Jesus. Gombs for instance has shown some of the inconsistencies in your fable. i call it a fable because it is incomplete and exaggerated. There was nothing to enjoy in the read though you told us to enjoy it. i guess those are the kinds of report that give you and your handlers joy. Your friend's elders begged him, gave him cold water and juice, exhorted him with many scriptures. Yet, he is asking for a formal apology from God know who, and whatever that means. He still has this grudge and bitterness in himself for up to nine years! Evidently, your friend needs more help than the folks he is reporting on facebook, nl and wherever else.

cold: And oh while we're at it,how many diseases have these so called faith prayers eradicated. Let me guess,zilch,nada,zero! On the contrary,science has been at the forefront of eradicating diseases for the last two or three centuries

No one promised or instructed that prayers were to eradicate diseases. Your ignorance robs you of the fact that most of the scientists and health workers believe in a God. Your access to the internet is robbing you of reality.

Pastor Kun: Yes it's a eye witness account of what Oyedepo said when his thugs attacked the Ogun state govt officials.

Rather, you should say "It's my false witness account of what Oyedepo said".

thehomer: I'll just save this here for posterity.

i'd wish rather that you had a clearer knowledge of God and salvation, than saving my writings for posterity.

This is what we need to hear and be exhorted and edified, not the wannabe christians who love to drool over sensational stories on the streets of Ashkelon. Much grace and blessings Bidam

kunleO and his divisive seducing crew.

solidbroda: Yes we understand. From my own point of view, why does Oyedepo preach as if you going to the hospital is actually wrong!!
Like a Doctor in his health care center may diagnose an ailment on a patient and the Bishop would say, the Doctor is a liar, that such is not the patient's portion. And the patient go home with strong faith.
So, why is it that the bishop Knows that Doctors lie and at the same time still establish an health center?
Can you see a conflicting case here?
It is always good to look in-depth and not look shallow...

+1000

hitman2911: Winner chapel has medical centers in some of their big churches. There is also medical unit where people are treated free on service days.

The church never preached against medical treatment or check up. There are many pastors and members in the church who are also health care providers. Faith Oyedepo was treated in an hospital when she was sick and David Oyedepo always talk of when his child was taken to hospital one time or the other. Paul and Timothy had body infirmities as stated in the bible and have to use .some form of treatment. Jesus did not heal every one he met. It is ignorant xtians that kill themselves for lack of knowledge.

It is really disturbing how you guys come up here to distort facts. I worked in the church medical centre in Kaduna 10 years ago and served in the Winners chapel medical unit in different countries that I have lived.

I have seen miracles, I have seen patients already written off coming back to life. Only a fool doubts a proof In your own opinion the church fakes it so called miracles and also it should leave those who are sick to die without medical attention. So it is wrong for clinic to be established to cater for pregnant women, immunisation, delivery etc.

I understand. Canaanland has a large population with all mix of people coming in and out including those who don't believe in healing like you. So if you collapse while moving around on your fault finding mission, where should they have rushed you to? Oyedepo office or the clinic?

When I was in Kaduna, members mostly have their bill taken care by the church or home cell. If the "BRAINWASHED" members are tired of been EXPLOITED and ROBBED, it is for them to decide to leave or stay, don't be busy taking panadol for other peoples headache when they don't actually have headache.

Last word. MI & Tuface says if people don't talk about you that means you are NOBODY

Don't waste precious sentences on such as the OP. He is not interested in hearing all these.

half story.

duh, it is not a sin.

Hehehe, two should not walk together except they be agreed. Tje issue of money/finances is very imporrtant in marriage and shuld not be glossed over. Perhaps the OP's friends even have deeper doctrinal differences thn tithing. Tithing was just the initial sign or crack in the crumbling wall. Tension is bound to arise ver what they both want to use their money for, and the antitithe fellow will cntinue to hammer on the 'not so big deal' ten percent that the wife gave as tithe as the reason why they do not have enough for other things. i say find a birdie of the same feather, srry.

don' t worry OP, you will explain to God that these are the things that stopped you from living a christlike life., Then the people who had the tragedes themselves and still believed in God like Job, Paul, Joseph, Daniel and co will leave you speechless and without a choice than to spend eternity in hell fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If we are children of God, the implication is that we are heirs of God. That is joint heirs WITH Christ. We receive what Christ receives.
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.

He, Christ is worthy. We just dey to enjoy with Him. And as many as have the faith and grace, we can actually TASTE of these in this life. Some believers have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. They have tasted power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing in a divinely given way. Some are content however to take whatever comes their way, and wait to enjoy 'when we get to the sweet by and by'. Some would even argue and stumble against strength and health, riches and prosperity, blessing and intellectual giftings and advancements, power and miracles for the believer or church. But if we are children, we are heirs of God. And we must also be willing to suffer with Him.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Paul puts suffering and glory on a scale, he has calculated and estimated it. The sufferings are insignificant when compared to the glory which shall be revealed. Many christians today only look at the suffering. Let us follow Paul, He lookked at the suffering and the glory. God has not guaranteed us a lifetime without suffering. In this life, there is tribulation and suffering in one form or the other. There is disappointment, loss of property or of loved one, there is sickness, there are challenges, there is poverty and tragedy. The enjoyment of kingdom blessings may have to be by 'violence'. But in the future, when Jesus comes, glory is certain, guaranteed, sure. Paul suffered hunger, imprisonment, shipwreck etc for instance. We may suffer in different ways but we need to look ahead and look, for the joy and glory set before us. We need to endure to the end.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

All of creature or creation is waiting for Jesus' return. That is the ultimate fulfillment of the manifestation of the children and sons of God. That's what the sun, moon, stars are waiting for. that is why the sun is still rising and going down. That is what the mountains and the seas are waiting for. And the trees and the animals. All of creation/creature waits. Man the crown of creation should also be set in eager expectation.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

All of creation, the sun, moon, stars, rivers, mountains, planets, animals, birds, plants, trees, and of course man are subject to vanity. they have been made subject by God because of man. It is the same God that has subjected creation in hope.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

This is the chief hope. We are hoping for deliverance, from corruption into glorious freedom. Every sinner, nay, every man needs to find that hope.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We, believers have the firstfruits of the Spirit. Where the Spirit is, there is liberty. Believers have some form of freedom, though we still await the fullnesss of the manifestation that will be revealed in us in glory by the coming of Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We are saved by hope. Hmmm, they are all intertwined. Faith, grace, mercy, love, hope. That is why a believer continues to add to his faith. Have hope, have love, have faith etc. It's not all love or all holiness. Hope is important, even for eternity. If we have hope only in this life, we are of all men most miserable. How much more if we do not have hope in this life? Where there is life, there should be hope, this is what makes a living dog better than a dead lion. We all need hope. Paul told the Corinthians, NOW remaineth hope, faith and charity. Hope is critical to lifein the NOW. People without hope commit suicide, they give up,they live unfulfilled lives. Christ is our hope, of glory. Hope is not seen or visible. Hope is closely linked to faith and love and patience. We need to patiently hope. Hope helps our infirmities.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We may have feebleness, disease, or weaknesses. It is hope in us, with patience that will see us through the hard times. God the Spirit ALSO helps our weaknesses, diseases and infirmities. He was sent to help us. One of His names is Helper/Comforter. We often need help, but we forget our Helper. He wants to help us all the way, when we feel strong and when we feel weak. Everytime.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Who is He that searcheth the hearts? God.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
So, God knows the mind of the Spirit. The point here is that the Holy Spirit is a personality with a mind. He is not mindless like fire or water or electicity. He has a mind. The Father God has a mind, the Spirit God has a mind, so also the Son God has a mind.
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
The Holy Spirit prays for us according to the will of God. He prays for the saints BTW, i'm not sure about others.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Ubenedictus: i imagined u will say this, image remember what i told you. Are u sure u want to hold this veiw

Act 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

debosky: I agree with this, but would add the following: The instructions of Peter and Paul are not laws in the same sense as the instructions given to Moses - these latter instructions should be the natural by-product of our justification and righteousness by faith.

To put it differently, they are the evidence or outward confirmation of what has happened inside. I can liken it to a pregnant woman - the enlarged abdomen is the natural by product of what is going on inside. If the pregnancy is in its early stages (i.e. the baby Christian still walking in the flesh) then the pregnant woman looks no different from the non-pregnant one, but as the embryo grows into a foetus, the outward signs begin to show.

i'm in agreement with this. The 'laws' of moses would also have been 'instructions' but for the covenant. The covenant/agreement is what makes/made all the difference. The obedience to the instruction follows justification in the New Covenant. justification was meant to follow obedience to the 'instructions' in the Old Covenant. So, Moses's own seemed more critical to the salvation and acceptance of the people. But Paul's and Jesus' or whoever's now are at the background, and more of a fruit of being accepted and saved.
1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
This believers had received somethings on HOW TO WALK, and HOW TO PLEASE God. They had been given some COMMANDMENTS.

Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Evidently, the early believers were being told to do some things, they were also being taught to observe ALL things that Jesus had taught(Matthew 28v20), knowing that the book of Luke, for instance, contains some of all that Jesus did and taught. These 'instructions' most of which are harder to keep than the Old Testament 'commandments', are not to justify us before God or save us. It is faith in Christ that justifies us.

thehomer: Wow. You're really unable to see the problems with what you've just said. You're saying God commanded the flood that killed everyone - men, women, children, infants - except a family of 8 people not to stop evil, not to make the world better but because some of those men and women did something wrong. He did this knowing that his killing these people won't improve the society and won't protect those who haven't committed any crimes. In other words, he killed everyone knowing that there wouldn't be a positive outcome.

You are the one unable to see the fallacy in your position. You are forcing in things that were not said either by God or myself. Out of your long talk, here is what i have said, "God commanded the flood that killed everyone - men, women, children, infants - except a family of 8 people because those men and women did something wrong." This is what i have said, keep all the fancy stuff you added in the dustbin, you sure can cope with some honesty?

How is it a strawman? I'm telling you why we actually take the time to lock people in jail. You asked me a question and I answered. If jailing offenders doesn't make the society safer, then what would be the point of jailing those offenders?

You said "God killing everyone wasn't to make society safer. So what was his reason?"
You implied that that was what i said. i never said that.

Yes. They're all abstractions. You'll notice that like "goodness" neither "redness" nor "fiveness" can be a person so saying God is goodness means he too is an abstraction. Frankly having this conversation with you is getting difficult because you seem unable to handle abstract concepts.

Like i said, it might take you a lifetime to wrap your head around with that. God is good. He is not a human being, limited to your perception and understanding. He made the whole universe. You couldn't even get your head to understand parts of the human body, yet you think you can play grammar to understand God? Did you just say 'Yes, goodness, redness and fiveness are moral concepts?

You said God's purpose was dominion. Well killing babies doesn't mean man won't be able to dominate or master the earth so you need to pick another reason.

Duh, it is the babies that are to become man(i.e men and women). If they are killed by your altruist friend, they do not grow up to become men that has dominion and mastery of his world, or to be holy and victorious. These were the chief purposes for which God made the babies.

Based on what you're saying here, is it right for the Nigerian government to kill Abacha's son because his father ordered some people to be killed?

Based on what i'm saying, the Nigerian government are not God. And God would usually not punish the 'bad man's son if the son does not continue in the bad life of the man. Have you been reading what i've been saying at all, or you are more interested in making silly points from twisted phrases?

How could a 6 month old child have committed any crime? What on earth are you saying? Or are you deliberately trying to misunderstand what I've said?
Before I answer your questions, I'll need some clarification. Are you asking me what should have happened assuming that there was a good God? Or are you asking me to answer based on the absence of a God?

When you limit it to six month old, you apparently forget that sinner adults were the majority of the people justly punished. Their stats show that they continued in sin. God in His omniscience could easily state like we project in a graph, what the 6months would eventually do.
i'm was almost certain you will skip those questions ALSO. i could fairly project and know what you would do. You will still avoid them like a plague. here they are again.
On a sidenote, i want to ask, do you think they should have killed the old and left the 6month olds? 6 month olds somehow get to survive on their own? Or you think they should have adopted them, or what? Give me your goody options. Can you tell me what anyone baby has done wrong to be born in a place like Nigeria(or wherever else you think unpleasant) when he could be born in America(or wherever else you think okay)? Why does anyone has to be born into a poor home or debt or disease stricken home? Are they going to be immune from the evil and suffering their parents are undergoing? Should 'bad' people and folks who cannot take care of children be barren? Are there some set of people who you feel have to right to give birth? i'm almost certain you will skip these questions AGAIN

Then you don't understand what the English meaning of genocide is. This is the definition I'm using please tell me whether you agree with that definition or not. If you don't, please present your own definition.

Based on the definition I've given above and the English Language, God did command a genocide so what you've said above is factually incorrect.

Not surprised, i expected you would rather revel in frivolities about definitions, instead of facing the real issue being discussed. i understand genocide to be a crime, therefore God did not commit a crime. That is as simple as it gets. Whatever name you choose to call His acts, here is the real issue again. Hopefully, you do not miss it this time.

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The quotes show us that one, God spoke through His prophets like Moses and Samuel. Of course you agree to that, else we should be arguing Moses or Samuel killing Amalekites instead of God. At our own time, God has spoken through Jesus.
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
His Son has said among other things, love everyone, including enemies. To pray for them, to be pitiful, to be courteous, to honour all men. He has told us that we are all one in Him and that there is no Jew or Gentile discrimination again, that He has broken the middle wall of partition, and died for us when we were enemies. He does not want anyone to perish but has offered humanity a new agreement/covenant.
The bolded are all things found in the Bible, which you have read and know that Jesus has said either directly or through His disciples. Based on this, it is ascertained what God has told us about such actions. The whole of Matthew 5 always make a good read anyday.
Mat 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you,
Mat 5:45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.

What a doctors, architects, lawyers, footballers do cannot be done by every other person so saying that doesn't mean that what they do cannot actually be judged. Again, what you're saying here amounts to might makes right. i.e God can do whatever he wants not because he is just or moral but because he is powerful. I'm sorry but that doesn't fly as a moral argument.

Wrong. God can do what He has done because He is the Judge of the earth. What He has done has been to judge the offenders. that is as plain and straight forward as it gets.

shdemidemi: What does it mean to be a carnal Christian?

A Christian that lacks the understanding of God's word. It is the very opposite of a mature spiritual Christian.

The Greek word used here was 'sarkikos'. Which signifies having the nature of the flesh. The Corinthian saints were making no progress but they were no anti-spiritual,

'Carnal' can also mean 'sarkinos' 'consisting of flesh'

On the other hand, being led by the Spirit is contrasted to being led by the flesh (the unregenerated state of man). You cannot be led by two masters, can you?

I would also like to learn from you if you are convinced that the 'Holy Spirit' would be there comforting, teaching and all during that great tribulation in the book of Revelation.

A carnal person is a person who is walking in the flesh. Compare these two passages.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

listed among the works of the flesh and as a description for the carnal are envy, strife and division.

i don't want to say much on this as the grace of God is infinite and not limited to perspectives. i'll however leave with three scriptures that teach that we can obtain grace with faith.

1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[quote author=Dux-01]If u have the gift of the word of knowledge,you can prove to ANYONE that God exists.[/quote]Those that will not believe still will not believe. There are many backsliders and reprobates that have tasted and seen the power of God.

aManFromMars: Summary of your life, I see....

Just quality advice that you may need in life.

aManFromMars: Still an empty troll, I see...

When you get tired of changing your handle, do not consider ending your life. God loves you and wants you to have a fulfilled life, not a life and handle that continues to fail.

ledafaze: Don't misunderstand the bible. Grace cant be worked for... You can't attain Grace through faith... Grace is like a turnel while faith is the fuel in that turnel. Grace comes to you, taps into you without faith being involved.... Then it now depends on how well you tap into the faith in the tunnel...

Abegi... I dont like dragging issues... na to enter heaven we dey after... bye...

Unfollowing post

Hmmm, faith is not exactly works though it has to be done.There is nothin like attaining grace, its not to be attained but obtained. And to obtain from God, one needs faith.

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive ANY THING of the Lord.

Grace is God's help and every believer needs to come boldly to obtain grace. It doesn't just jump on somebody.

Logicboy03: Spoken likecan old religious bigot.

How has your comment affected or even addressed the questions on religion he put forward

sorry, i totally missed the questions, where are they?

ledafaze: Guy,

In this dispensation, Grace is a pathway on its own... ...without any works or faith at all... it is called Unmerited...

Faith links you to God's grace. No matter the grace in front of you, you cannot have it without faith, as it were. Without faith it is impossible to please God, ithink the first passage of kunle's post that you quoted says pretty much the same.

MAYOWAAK: Who was it that intelligently designed the cancer cells, Alzheimer's disease, sickle cell & all the other horrific and deadly diseases? Who thought that giving infants' brain cancer is funny?

Who was the genius who thought that earth quakes, hurricanes, floods, tsunamis, volcanoes, and other disasters that kill thousands of humans every year, was a good idea?

Who was the was the great engineer who intelligently designed the malaria carrying mosquitoes that kill thousands of Africans every year--Is this a type of population control from the great designer?

Who was the mastermind that designed an earth where 2/3 of its surface can't be lived on?

Whose omnipotent mind created life so fragile that 90% of the creatures that ever lived on earth are now extinct?

Who was it that thought that it was wise to design an earth and put it in the way of millions of "shooting" asteroids and meteorites, that will eventually crash into earth and causing catastrophic deaths and disaster?

Who designed our sun to eventually burnout ending all life on earth?--Instead of burning in hell, we all will one day freeze to death!

Whose wonderful design was it to make chicken and other animals so delicious and pleasing to some human palette that they have to slaughter millions of them to get the necessary protein that they need to survive? Why does a single plant have to die to feed our hunger?

Who was the Supreme Being with the high IQ who created humans to be warmed blooded, which means that we have to constantly eat in order to stay alive. While this same genius created some creatures cold blooded, which means they can survive months on just one meal.

Who intelligently designed deer flesh and other animal's flesh like them to be the only food that animals like lions and tigers have to eat to survive, which means the lions and tigers must kill the deer and these other animals out of necessity to survive?

Can someone please tell me who is the grand architect who designed urine to flow from our sexual organs---and blood to flow from the female sexual organ?

Which comedienne intelligently designed our sexual organs {especially the female's} to be so close to where we defecate from? It would take a superior being with a very sick & depraved mind to build an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system.

Which supreme, all knowing being in their right mind would design humans with brains that are capable of rejecting their creator, and give them brains that are capable of discovering faults and errors in their intelligent designs such as I have stated above?

It seems to me that the intelligent designer[s] need[s] to do some intelligent redesigning on himself/herself/itself/themselves.

See what you have done with the money your religious folk used to train you? i guess you have achieved something notable in your intelligent life.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The epistle to the Romans is very frank and straight. This verse tells us that IF God's Spirit dwells in us(a person), we are not in the flesh. It means that there is no sitting on the fence. It's akin to saying that you cannot serve God and mammon(material wealth), you are either hot or cold. You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God is in you.You are not in the Spirit but in the flesh, if the Spirit of God is not in you. Now it is possible for the Spirit of God to leave a person. The Spirit of God is not chained to us. Evil spirits try to possess a person against his/her will but the Spirit of God is gentle and can be grieved. Remember the Spirit of God that left King Saul. Remember David's prayer in the Psalms that God should not take His holy spirit from him. If we walk in the Spirit, we will not be in the flesh. The works of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit are outlined in the epistle to the Galatians. That passage is a clear indicator to us as individuals, showing us at every point in time, whether we are in the flesh or in the Spirit.
Gala 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
if we are claiming to be living and alive in the spirit, those who are claiming to be spiritual, to be christians, then let us walk in the Spirit. if the Spirit of God is truly in you, then you will not be walking in the flesh. if you are walking in the flesh, it is a tell sign that the Spirit has departed. Jesus said to ABIDE in Him, and He in us. Let us take heed, so that we do not depart from God (whether Father, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit).
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
This warning is important because IF ANY MAN, anywhere and anytime have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Whatever the name, title, position or experience. NOW If ANY MAN have not the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His. Little wonder, there will be a "Depart from me, I do not know you" proclamation.
One more salient point is that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If Christ is in you, the(a) proof is that your body is dead and your spirit is alive. If Christ is in you, that is if you are a believer, if you are born again, saved, washed by the blood of the Lamb. Greater is He that is in you. If Christ is in you, the body is dead. You are dead,the I is no more struggling but crucified. You are no more your own, but have become a servant and prisoner of Christ. You have GIVEN your life TO Christ. If you have truly GIVEN it, then it is no more yours.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Notice the perspective and context. It is like looking at a thing from different angles and heights, different camera viewpoints. He the writer has earlier talked about how we were dead in sin, and we also know how that we are in Christ(if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature). Now, we see a perspective of how we are dead in Christ, and yet Christ is IN us. If Christ be IN YOU, the body is dead because of sin. The body needs to die, to be put under so that it will not sin, or be allured and empowered to sin. Many people talk about how God is not interested in their body, implying that they can do anything with it and Christ is still in them. No, If Christ be in you, the body is dead/deadened because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Your spirit is alive because of righteousness. If you ar not righteous, your spirit dies, that is, it is cut off/separated from God and His fellowship.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

God is the Him that raised up Jesus. If the Spirit of God DWELL in you, God will quicken your body by His Spirit that DWELLS in you. note the emphasis/repetition on 'dwell'. The Spirit of God needs to dwell, have an abode, house/home, abiding presence with and in you. If this is the case, God will quicken you by His Spirit.His Spirit will influence from your Spirit to your body. God is a complete and perfect God. he is interested in our bodies, as they are His temple. He is not only intersted in taking care of the spiritual, He also wants to touch our body, which you have surrendered to Him, remove every deadness, sickness, and pain, and glorify you.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Therefore, because of the Spirit of God, because of Christ, and of God,and for all that they have done for you/us, we are debtors. We have a debt/responsibility to the Spirit, to mortify the deeds of the body. We are not to live after the flesh. If we live after the flesh, we will die. Paul was addressing believers, telling them that IF they lived after the flesh, they will die. Quite reminiscent of God's charge to Adam and Eve. Living after the flesh is a self life, a selfish life, an ego centred life, wanting to please yourself, and to do your own will, to follow your own mind. If you live after the flesh, you will die, be not deceived. God is not mocked. We are to mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit. By the help of the Spirit, and by purpose of heart. Like Daniel purposed in his heart not to defile himself.
Act 11:23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Mortify the deeds of the body by being filled with the Spirit. kill and destroy the deeds of the body.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The leading of the Spirit of God is the birthright of EVERY child of God. AS MANY. As many as have received Him. The Holy Spirit's ministry is to teach you. He was sent to guide you. You have a right to be guided by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost guides you to mortify the deeds of the flesh/body. he shows you how. As we walk with God's Spirit, He guides us if we pay close attention. That is why it appears many times that we are all in different classes/cadres of His guidance. As He is leading you to mortify the deeds of the body, he may tell you things that He did not tell everybody. He might say don't go to that place, or stop using this thing, or don't do so and so thing again. Meanwhile He hasn't told the other fellow, or maybe He is telling but the fellow cannot/does not hear, or has not heard. So you are not exactly measuring your life and obedience by but others are doing it. As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons and of course daughters of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit of God given us is a Spirit of boldness and power. Boldness is not necessarily arrogance. The Spirit of God empowers us and makes us bold to obey God. It takes boldness to obey God. Obeying God is not always common sense or logical, neither is it always popular. But God wants us to obey Him, and serve Him without fear, in holiness and in righteousness, EVERY day. We have the Holy Spirit. We have the Spirit of boldness. We are not to be afraid again. Believers should not be afraid of satan, or sickness, or humans, or death. Its not talking about being foolhardy or disrespectful, or like the UNJUST judge in Jesus' parable, who regarded no man. We are no more under any bondage but are now free to obey God. God is not afraid, and we have become His children. We have received the Spirit of adoption, and we can now call God our Father. Like Jesus Christ, who in His earthly ministry usually referred to God as Father, we now have the same relationship by the Spirit of adoption. We are children of God. And real children of God cry Abba, Father. This implies prayer, communing with God. Children of God are not prayerless.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Spirit, our spirit. Two spirits working and walking together. Notice that the Spirit is not just bearing witness to our spirit, but He is bearing witness WITH our spirits, that we are the children of God. Being a child of God involves a personal assurance of salvation, of adoption, of redemption. You need to know that you know that you know that you are a child of God. And not just for you to know, but for the Spirit of God to also bear witness. The Spirit of God settles it in you and confirms it in you that you are a child of God. Notice that it is continuous. The Spirit bears, it is not just that He bore witness last week or last year or five years ago. Is He still bearing witness that you are a child of God. Is your own spirit still bearing witness? Are you examining yourself whether you are in the faith?
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
It is not enough to have some dead interesting story of how you became a child of God. NOW, are we the sons of God, NOW. The Spirit bearS witness WITH our spirit, that we are the children of God. Sons and daughters of God.
(CEV) God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children.
Be very sure, be very sure, your anchor holdS, and gripS the Solid Rock.

demi, debo, Ub and co, pardon me i have you in mind and will still reply your queries. Thanks.