₦airaland Forum

@andrearose
i thought if you were 100 sure, you wouldn't be kinda looking for back up views? Whatever you do anyways, do all to God's glory. ciao

@Andrearose
i thought you were not sure?

@Andrearose
If i wasn't sure of something, i'll not do it.

But if we can do all things through Christ, why can't we pray through Christ. You're both right in a sense but why do we exert so much on nothing. Don't think God is as interested in our lexis and semantics as He is in faith and the fervent prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man. All our name calling and twistings do not further God's work but self.

Wow. Just wow. Are you really unable to tell the difference between slaves and football players? Do you really think that CEOs own their workers? It is really amazing that you think this way. I've really tried to lead you out of your fallacy yet you choose to play around in it.

your perspective is really failing you. You tried to sell as wrong the concept of buying and selling people, and then later the practice of children 'inheriting workers from their parents. While i'm not rooting for or against it, i simply showed you that the concepts were still common place and much welcomed by the society. A new branch manager takes over, a new company acquires another, and all the workers are thrown into despair and hope at once thinking they might all be replaced/retrenched. the new head doesn't cause any 'major shakeup' and we're all appluading the dividends of civilisation and economic stabilty, but once that concept is seen in the scriptures, it's terrible behaviour from the baric god. you need a new vision really.

I'm sorry but this indicates that you are a moral monster. You have simply said that if you had the power, you would go out and murder children for making fun of an old man. I hope that if/when you have children, you would look at them and ask yourself if this is an appropriate punishment for any thing that they do.

Oh, you're all soppy already. God is not a man, mr, not a man. Pretty sure that the "If i were God" part failed to register in your comprehension.

Those are critical messages in the Bible or are you claiming that they are not there? Why would a good, just and moral God allow such atrocities?

Quite dishonest of you as usual, or at best sheer ignorance from you not to know the 'critical messages' in the Bible, and not to be aware of the different covenants in operation.

Obviously he's changed because we don't see the Israelites giving the Amalekites bread to eat instead they go on to happily murder them under this God's command. Do you still not see the difference between one person ordering the slaughter of a group of people and an instruction to give food to hungry people? If one person used to do one then later did the other, would you not consider that a change in morality?

Any reader of the Bible knows that the conquest of Canaan was not the modus operandi of the Israelites, and that they were given a law/laws with which to live. Go and read your Bible from beginning to end to perhaps have a better grasp of issues. The Canaanites were enemies of God, not personal enemies of Israel, and they were under judgement by God. Why do you consistently fail to learn, these things are plainly written in Scriptures.

Those declarations of human rights are far better than what God said as we can see. I have to send you some of those links because you often appear to be poorly informed and it would derail the thread too much to start explaining them to you.

Nonsense, i doubt you even know them. There's nothing of value there that was not already preached in God's Word.
BTW, i hope Article 11 of your revered rights shuts you up. It says "No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed."

Have you not heard of retroactive laws? This is something else you need to look up.
And this is your response to the age old Euthyphro's dilemma. This is a terrible response. So if God goes out and tortures then kills 500 children or orders you to do the same, you will do it. This is the sort of abhorrent morality that really saddens me.

Article 11 mr. Plus this obscure law is prohibited in most of the countries, didn't you read on it? You really need to be reminded that we live in the new covenant/testament period, and that we all belong to God. Do i read those rights again?

Yet again, you simply stick your God anywhere you like.

He was already there before. He's everywhere don't you know? What my friend thehomer is the source of life. Don't link me please, just your answer plain/simple.

What  definition are you using? You will notice that I would usually present you with the definition I'll be applying to reduce errors.

i asked you to define the words 'science', 'proof' and 'evidence' seeing you maintained that they were different from one another. Now i gave you definition that showed otherwise and gave the source, still you're asking 'what definition' i'm using?

I advice you to get a better dictionary.

i don't need a cult dictionary to define words in a preconceived and forced thinking. All the common dictionaries would give the same result of what i quoted.

You're still failing to do the things you were supposed to do. You were supposed to present the scientists saying this, instead you presented a bunch of pages of which only one of them seemed to show what you wanted. The others directly contradicted you. Now tell me, what is the difference between 'modern man' and 'non-modern man'?

You asked for a link and i gave you a google link. It's up to you to look for what you need to look for in it. So now it's only one showing what i said? i thought you initially said they didn't. Read well, you may yet learn.

I already told you that how we arrive at the age and formation of stars is scientific. Stars actually age by regular natural processes. This is the same reason why we are able to predict eclipses and tell the dates of past eclipses whether or not humans were present.

Age and formation of the stars? Are you really referring to those suppositions, probabilities and hypotheses?

Faith is nothing but a terrible idea. It is based on faith that we have so many Christian sects and sub-groups. Which one of them is right?

Differing sects and groups abound in all sphere of life. Differences are caused by unequal knowledge or understanding, not faith.

Go back and read what you wrote then compare. The fact that it is a theory is not a bad thing.

the·o·ry [th əree, three]
(plural the·o·ries)
noun
1.  rules and techniques: the body of rules, ideas, principles, and techniques that applies to a subject, especially when seen as distinct from actual practice

Many coaches have a good grasp of the theory of football but can't motivate players.

2.  speculation: abstract thought or contemplation

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

So your God is the author of confusion? Have you really read your Bible or do you not understand the meaning of what you said?

But you know that the Bible says the opposite of your question. What's confusion in humans not been the same? We're created to be united in our diversities.

Of course. Keep playing with words. Force your Bible to fit what we now know via science.

Those were always in that Bible passage, i didn't force them there. You've seen it for yourself.

I don't understand the difficulty you're having. Go back and read the definition not the example, the definition. They're quite different you know.

You said "Please can you point me to any English Language dictionary that supports any of these proposals of yours?". Now it's there, you want it not as the example. You need to be serious. And if you're really serious, you'll want to know more what the christians call faith, or what God calls faith. Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You still seem to be unable to grasp the fundamental difference being that unlike the various fields you mentioned, mathematics does not have any experimental or aspects to it.

i believe you now see that maths is an integral science, and actually used to solve so many scientific problems.

Some were lying, others claim this for monetary gains, yet others may simply wish to go with the crowd then there's the group that are simply deluded and many other groups for other poor reasons.

How about the group that found their claims to be true and truth?

There's the Code of Hammurabi, the Analects of Confucious, the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Five Rings and many many more.

Are you lost in the discuss or something? what's this, code of what? Let me refresh you a little. i was talking about the divinity of the Scriptures, and among other things like its popularity and answers to life's problem, how it was amazing ling preserved despite specific hauntings and persecutions., and we went like

---

thehomer: Preservation? Actually, there are books older than the Bible available. Are they divine too?
Image123: Do you have them with you?
thehomer: No I don't but you can look them up.
Image123: Where?
thehomer: Simply google world's oldest books. I'll no longer be spoon feeding you unless it's absolutely necessary.
Image123: Oh so i can only find it on google. So much for divine comparisons.
thehomer: It's so divine that the God behind it allowed just one copy not like some Gods who allow forgeries and adulteration of their works.
Image123: Why don't you honestly accept that it's a much forgotten insignificant book?
thehomer: Because it is obviously not forgotten and is not insignificant.
Image123: If it was significant enough, you'd have a copy instead of the many copies of bible that you have. you'd read and quote it if it was significant. you'd be bold to say the name.
thehomer: Oh I have digital copies of some of those books and the Bible. I don't often quote them to people whose only knowledge is the Bible.
Image123: names please.
thehomer: There's the Code of Hammurabi, the Analects of Confucious, the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Five Rings and many many more.

---

Are these the divine books older than the Bible, and that you don't have, but later miraculously have digital copies of? Disappointing really. Well the point has been made that it's only the Bible that shows us a sure way of salvation, all others either do not show, or are skeptical in themselves.

You're free to clarify if you can.

And i said i presently wasn't interested in clarifying,remember? i.e on spirit and soul in case you don't.

I wonder if you're being disingenuous here or if you truly do not know the implications of what you say. Please tell me, do you think the 14th century Catholics were Christians?

Your question is too general, and i'm not their judge. But specifically, any one who disobeys the word of God in any century or generation, including the present, is not a christian.
1John 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It seems you still wish to equivocate on books by talking about references etc when I've already clearly indicated what I meant.
How about the New Testament only books?
Go ahead with your circular reasoning.

You're the one being equivocal. You perfectly know the Bible i've been referring to. Even google and wiki know. You're the one who's been labouring to bring in what's not.

Then you're not being honest because there are instructions there on how to acquire a slave, how to keep one and how to treat one.

And where are those 'instructions' located again?

If he did, then why was that tree called the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

You answer, why was that other tree called the tree of life, even though Adam was alive? give a try atleast?

He couldn't have done that because he did not even know of their existence while we do know that people lived there before during and after his reign.

PROOF?

I'm not avoiding it. I simply presented you with what I was saying. If you wish to talk about servants, be my guest.

What you were saying is not in the Bible. 'Slavery' is not the word used in the Bible. It's 'servants'. You've been avoiding that word like fire, going for slavery instead.

With the main problem being that there are no spirits. If he were serious, then he would not need faith or miracles to let himself be known.

God doesn't 'need' faith. It's man that needs faith. If you were serious about knowing God, you'd have faith seeing that's the way. You think there are no spirits? so you don't know you have a spirit? maybe i might have to talk about spirits afterall? Only the believer the pure in heart that can see God, every other person remains a blind bat blinded by the devil. You can actually belief, you have faith. It's like a radio/tv station and a radio/tv antenna. The radio/tv station might be broadcasting all day 24-7 i.e God. It's up to every individual to get their radio/tv antenna working and tuned to receive. If you don't have or tune the antenna, you may never receive signal. If you can believe thehomer, you'll see.

You are still not getting the point. . .firstly, this has nothing to do with the devil getting a hold of my heart and trying to test me with questions to alter my faith nor belief-system. . .never!

Really? 1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Matthew 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

i wouldn't argue much with you. But you shouldn't embrace a 'tweaked perception' of God's omniscience at the detriment of His revealed attributes e.g of Justice, Mercy, Faithfulness, Love, Righteousness etc.
We are created for His pleasure but the bible is quite clear that we do not all fulfill His pleasure.
Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Psalm 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

As I have always said, Ignorance+narrow mindedness is your problem, everything I said is in tandem with christ's teachings even though some of the terminologies I used might vary from the one biblical scholars used two thousand years ago. The message is still the same. The bible makes it clear that christ came to show us THE WAY, take it or leave it

No need to raise unnecessary dust, simply bring up scriptures that support your sentences. Like these below

God sent us to this planet to develop our souls spiritually and perfect ourselves.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

The ability for perfection is within us, we just have to strive towards it.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Earth is like a training/testing ground for the human soul it's up to you to pass the test.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

God also sent his son Jesus to show us the way by giving us all the exam expo yet a lot of people reject this expo and create their own rules. Even those who claim follow him.

1John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Jesus Christ came primarily to save us from our sins by dying on the cross.

What is the purpose of life on earth? And why is there a promise of a better life to come?

We are all on earth to glorify God, we should all live for that purpose.
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
There's a promise of a better life because that's God's plan for the faithful overcomers. Adam lost it, Christ regained it as it were.

That was Adam, what about Image123 Kindly confirm if Image123 was born, perfect

The question was "why would God create imperfect human and blame them for their imperfections?"

Hallelujah, to God be the glory. For the God of peace would bruise satan under you. Glory, honour, power and Strength be to Jehovah God.

kandiikane:
I am married.

What do you practice?

He wants to convert you to become a muslim

It's very easy kunle. It's embarrassing that Jenwit can spot out your nonsense and you cannot. Simply bring up scriptures that support your sentences.

But why would God create imperfect human and blame them for their imperfections?

God did not create imperfect humans.
Ecc 7:29  Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Genesis 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God sent us to this planet to develop our souls spiritually and perfect ourselves. The ability for perfection is within us, we just have to strive towards it. Earth is like a training/testing ground for the human soul it's up to you to pass the test. God also sent his son Jesus to show us the way by giving us all the exam expo yet a lot of people reject this expo and create their own rules. Even those who claim follow him.

These is complete junk from new age religions not found anywhere in the bible. Even Jenwit can see that, appalling stuff really.

@Tonye-t
Where have you been, do hope you've been 'chilling with God in Christ'.

You must understand that in a play, what you see, listen, believe and eventually act is what the puppeteer wants you to. This is a fact!. Lets see it like this. . .I write a play that involves a guy called Image123, and in this play I want him to see, listens, believe and act certain things but i want him to think he is solely responsible for this actions *afterall i am the one who employed Image123 to act that role, so he must do as i say whereas in essence I have a script and Image123's role is TO FULFILL MY PLANS AS IT IS IN THE SCRIPT.

It's necessary for us, as believers, to live in the Spirit and to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth. To know that the devil also uses that Word and could be pretty skilled at using it, he uses it more than we do, he's studied FAR longer than we have. It becomes compulsory for us to rely on God's Spirit to interpret the Word to us, and not our brain or worse still the devil.
Life is not a play. Let's see it the way God shows us in His Word, not to 'see it like this'. God is not deceiving us into any thinking. His Word enlightens us. Although God wants us to fulfill His plans(because that's the best path for us), we do not always fulfill His plans.
Hebrews 3:9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Hebrews 3:10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Their are some people who cause grief to God because they do not 'fulfill his plans as it is in the script'.
Think also of Eli
1Samuel 2:30  Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
And of Nineveh
Jonah 3:10  And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

We have so much divisions in the world today, do you know research has it that 80% cause of this problem is because we are made to see ourselves differently better still parallel. Different people would do things differently. . .the word Aye could mean " i love you" in a [man A's] language whereas to yet another, say [man B] it could mean "I will kill you" imagine what happens if man A speaks it to man B.

On one side we are made to believe Man is the architect of this problem. . .is this notion right one might ask? Especially when we go back and study who actually orchestrated this division.

Genesis 11: 6 - And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

11: 8 - So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth and they left off to build the city.

Without mincing words, one should actually agree that God is against the UNITY OF MAN, but when we are asked today, the first thing that poops from our orals is the 'THE DEVIL IS AT FAULT FOR MAN'S DIVISIONS TODAY' failing to accept the Puppeteer - Puppet r/ship thus failing to also realize that robbing God of this honor means trampling on his "SOLE ACHIEVEMENT & ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNITY

Please next time when the devil brings up scriptures, please do learn to hit him back with scriptures, even any scriptures. That's the way we overcome and i'm praying you would overcome even in this. More like, it is written,
John 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And
Jeremiah 32:39  And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me forever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
And Acts 1:14  These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
1Corinthians 1:10  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Eph 4:3  Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling.
Philippians 2:2  Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Philippians 2:3  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Philippians 2:4  Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Philippians 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Evidently, God desires and tells us to be united not divided whether Jew or Greek, or bond or free. It's the same way the the devil subtly tried to paint God in a bad light to Eve in the garden until she fell for it. In Genesis 11, God said the people were united, yes united, but united to disobey Him. It's not every kind of unity that is right. Are demons not united, are gang robbers not united? Some people united to go and kill Christians the other day. Do you want that kind of unity? God had said "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."Genesis 1:28
Genesis 9:1  And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Genesis 9:7  And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
From the start, God didn't plan for Adam to remain forever in Eden, but to 'recreate' Eden all over the earth, fill the whole earth, multiply and subdue it. IT was basically the same command He gave Noah after the flood that wiped out the others and left Noah's family as only survivors in the earth. But these guys in Genesis 11 had other myopic plans.
Gen 11:2  And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.  
Gen 11:4  And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
They had a plan directly opposite to God's plan. God said spread, they said "let's stay together". And they were actually making progress with their plans. If we project couple hundreds of years later, if they kept to their plans, they'll probably have grown in population and start to adjust by expanding bit by bit. That wasn't what God wanted. It's like in a class you have these group of students that are very troublesome and notorious, and can almost bring down the class/school if left to it. The normal idea is for the teacher to separate the trouble makers before the cause big trouble. And most times, when you separate them, you'll actually get some of them to come good in school work and co. it's basically the same principle God used here. Of course he knew they couldn't build up to Heaven where He was, but in their unity, they cold next time decide something more stewpid and damning. God just wiped out the human race for doing stewpeed things, remember. So He said Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7  Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8  So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
You see that in this case, God's Ultimate will was fulfilled but not 'AS IT IS IN THE SCRIPT'. They people could have continued in their journeying/spreading from the east to all the earth 'jejely' as in the script. but they showed small stubborn head before going. like in the doctor-patient relationship, we can be cooperating patients, or sedated patients, or disobedient patients. unfortunately we have many patients who stubborn would not even go to the doctor but die on their own when they could have been healed, and had Life.
A similar thing happened with the early Christians. God said "Go into all the world and preach to every creature" and that "ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." But every body stayed in Jerusalem enjoying themselves, and sharing testimony and distributing food until persecution came. Act 8:4  Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word. Truly, all things work together for good to them that love God. the early disciples went and did the will of God like Jonah, but not everybody does that. Some people continue in obstinacy until they are destroyed.

Col. 1:16 -  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

Certainly, ALL things were CREATED by Him and for Him. He had His purposes for creating all that He created. But always remember that things can be abused, misused, disused, or put to right use. I might make soap for washing plates. If someone else begins to use it to wash his car or to cook or to serve as fuel, it'll be a misuse. i might get kerosene to cook, someone may pick it up to fuel his car or to set fire on his enemy. I simply planned to use it to cook. All God has made were for good, holy and righteous purposes but Satan majorly has employed them to perpetuate other purposes, or has form fakes to deceive the gullible.
And please note that word 'created' is different from 'made' in it's root. God created from nothing. Man doesn't create in this sense, we make. like i can't say "all things are created by God my bag, my computer, my shoe, my freezer" God didn't make my handset. My body cream is not for Him. that's not the sense in which all things are by Him and for Him. We as human beings also make. We are created in His image, with ability to make and to choose. And sometimes we make things that displease Him.
Exodus 32:8  They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshiped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Psalm 119:126  It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for[b] they have made void thy law[/b].
Romans 1:30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
God ha given us so much, we're like His biggest investment as it were, but we've misused, disused and abused this privilege. We've forgotten God when He desires that we should remember him and to do things in remembrance of Him. But we all have a will, and we can always come back like the prodigal son. We can always come, whosoever will, and drink of the water of life FREELY.

Bro well done o, we're enjoying you v.well.

What's happening in Akwa Ibom? i think it's needless that the acn there is trying so hard to incite violence and spread a continuously negative picture. It's common sense that the incumbent government will be voted in by a convenient margin seeing its sponsoring the whole state's education

You're still equivocating. Please look up that word on wikipedia. Please point them out. Just place them in the appropriate context.

WHy should i point them out? i just showed you that we still buy and sell people, you believe it's no more buying and selling, but when you talked of buying people like cars, it was in the same context to you. now you're shocked that children can inherit their parent's workers. Doesn't this happen all the time? If a parent owned a company having workers/servants, and his child takes over as CEO. Oh now he's CEO, not child so i must be equivocating. Don't people inherit businesses and buy businesses with their workers? Don't new coaches inherit club players.? Do the player contracts change cos there's a new coach? These things happen in one form or the other, but because you have a bias against scripture, even if it said plus, you must say minus right, so you can be rational?

The point is what sort of God kills 42 children for mocking some bald guy? Can you kill 42 children for mocking you? Can you order 42 children to be killed for mocking you? Why is it that you're unable to see such bad behaviour when it is done by God?

Wrong point, you brought up. The point should be what sort of children should unite, more than 42 children unitedly mocking an elder? This is actually what they were saying, to be clear "Get out of here, baldy". If i were God yes i can and verily would, because i would be their Creator and Judge, omniscient and within every right to do away with useless set of people who have nothing important to offer to the world, and defend an Elisha who demonstrated obedience, loyalty, love and submission to his master, and who would still go on to deliver many, even NATIONS later in life.

I of course note how God's law shows how it is permissible to hold a man's family hostage to make him a slave as long as he lives.
I see you're still picking and choosing based on what 21st century people have decided. You will notice that neither Jehovah nor Jesus abolished slavery as we have.

You won't go far in life if those are the only things you note or tend to observe. You're the one doing the pick and choose. i accept God's Word, all of it and i understand it(at least far better than you, not a boast but a fact) enough to know the covenant/testament under which i live.

Oh but they do stain the thoughts of the Christian God. How could he have been so cruel? So in other words, God used to command people to kill others when they switch religion now he doesn't do that? You will notice how the current morality of God tends to parallel the morality of the society in which he finds himself.

Of you jump to the next new question with nothing to say on what i've posted. god doesn't have changing morality, He's the same yesterday, today and forever. Would i still need to say this? He's always a God of love, righteousness, justice and judgement.   If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: . It's been God's standard all along, only that man hardly had power to do or think that until Christ Jesus came and gave the power and grace. Now it's thinkable, and you believe it's the 'morality of the society'.

No. The statement has a scope. Human rights are not arbitrary unlike God's laws and commands which encouraged genocide. It seems you misunderstand what is meant by freedom, justice and equality with respect to human rights. Read up on it here. You will notice that they are generally better than what God came up with.

you must be dreaming here? generally better? these are unachieved dreams of justice, freedom and equality. they are not in the realities of any countries. Like i said they are scopeless, just like the long link you referred. i actually have the supposed 26  or so articles of the declaration of the human rights so thanks but no thanks for your long link. You feel free to send long endless links but see it odd for me to post answers longer than your questions, or to quote other humans who you do not agree with. Where's fairness and equality, where's freedom and all these generally better things in you?

Have you heard of retroactive laws? Look it up here. They may be dead and buried but this does not mean that the person who ordered their genocide was a good person worthy of praise.

so it's now 'retroactive law'? Anyway you twist and turn, the FACT remains that it can't be genocide if it wasn't murder, and can't be murder if it wasn't a crime, and can't be a crime if it wasn't illegal, and can't be illegal if it was done by God. Meditate on that.

The problem here is that you still fail to realize that it is a similar process that makes the rotation and revolution of the earth consistent that makes star formation and annihilation consistent. They're all bound by the same physical laws.

And all physical laws are bound by God's laws, always remember that.

Why don't you look up the definitions of science, proof and evidence? There are online dictionaries available. How much proof shows Newton's theories were correct? How much evidence shows that the sum of two positive integers is greater than the operands?

You would not define it as i expected because you'd be classically shooting yourself in the head. i'll help you, and not injure you in the process.

sci·ence [s ənss]
(plural sci·ences)
noun
1.  study of physical world: the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment (often used before a noun)
2.  branch of science: a particular area of study or knowledge of the physical world
the life sciences

3.  systematic body of knowledge: a systematically organized body of knowledge about a particular subject
the behavioral sciences

4.  something studied or performed methodically: an activity that is the object of careful study or that is carried out according to a developed method
the science of dressing for success

5.  knowledge gained from science: the knowledge gained by the study of the physical world



proof [proof]
noun (plural proofs)
1.  conclusive evidence: evidence or an argument that serves to establish a fact or the truth of something
2.  test of something: a test or trial of something to establish whether it is true
3.  state of having been proved: the quality or condition of having been proved
4.  law trial evidence: evidence presented in a trial for consideration by the court



ev·i·dence [évvid'nss]
noun
1.  sign or proof: something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something, or that helps somebody to come to a particular conclusion
There is no evidence that the disease is related to diet.

2.  proof of guilt: the objects or information used to prove or suggest the guilt of somebody accused of a crime
The police have no evidence.

3.  statements of witnesses: the oral or written statements of witnesses and other people involved in a trial or official inquiry

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Hope you noticed how science is said to be of the physical? we keep telling you that spiritual things are not physical things and cannot be subject to the exact same methods and tests. the dictionary also says proof is evidence, don't know where your esoteric views on common issues come from.

I've stated the lies clearly. The phrase "this is also known as the time of modern man" does not mean the same thing as this was when humans evolved. If you cannot see this, then I'm sorry. And you're yet to present the scientists saying humans evolved 10,000 years ago. These are the sort of statements that you make that I point out as lies.

Go and sit down somewhere, and maybe study. this is not the career section or education section. It's not my duty to teach you the geologic time scale, if you can't competently make your research, then be mute. now i've clearly shown you from just a sentence in all the links i sent you, it's now for you to twist my words. i didn't say  "this was when humans evolved". I recall saying "when 'modern humans evolved'. " Punctuation marks have meanings, and influence meanings, and how 'modern' is lost in your misquote is misleading.
BTW, the point has already been made, except maybe you're just looking forward to scoring cheap point. the point of 10,000 or no 10,000 if you recall was that humans(humanity) were far younger than any star and can only measure with hypothesis and huge guesses and projections, the age and formation of stars.

No I'm not. I'm simply pointing out to you that the fact that you did not see something does not mean it did not happen. And the better way of discovering what is true is by applying science and reasoning.

Excellent stuff, science and reasoning are better ways to discover the truths of the unseen. Faith is the BEST way. It's actually the evidence of things not seen(Hebrews 11v1).

Type "scientific theory" in Wikipedia and read. You have access to the Internet.

okay then, what do i think it means?

You've not seen how the Bible is wrong? Then my advice to you is to study it properly and learn the appropriate scientific principles.

Some things are just senior to, bigger than science. the Bible is one.

Of course since you define him into existence and slot him in wherever you like. Common sense? Is that why so many Christians disagree on the Bible?

No human being is created the same as the other, have you heard of strength in diversity?   It's reason to expect diversity, and it's fact to see that we can actually unite and harmonize as humans? God created all things this way.

Not because of seeing but because of evidence. You need to learn not to be too gullible.

You need to learn the value of TRUST.

Of course. I just hope you now properly understand what a clay seal is.

i didn't show that i didn't. you're the one showing that you do not understand the words 'turned', 'swaddling', 'band' and 'circle' once you see them in the Bible. And while you're at it, understand that a 'clay seal' is really different from 'clay to the seal'.

Belief is not evidence neither is trust. Read the definition not the example.

i thought you maintained that it wasn't in the link? Faith is defined in the Bible and used by Bible believers, get used to it.
Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Branch in what sense? I hope you realize it is very different from chemistry and biology.

Major branches of science are Mathematical sciences, Earth sciences, physical sciences, Life sciences, Social sciences and arguably Engineering/technology. i'm not going to teach you this, if you don't agree goodluck.

I'm simply using that as an analogy to point out to you that the fact that you think your Bible is divine due to popularity does not make it so. So I'm glad you indicated that the writers "claimed" divine inspiration and others simply accepted it.

How about others found their claims to be true and truth.

Oh I have digital copies of some of those books and the Bible. I don't often quote them to people whose only knowledge is the Bible.

names please.

Of course. And you've avoided telling me because you probably suspect that it makes little sense.

You must love hypotheses, assumptions and postulations.

When you say the Christians in Europe in the 14th century were not true Christians, then this implies that you know who the true Christians are which of course leads to the the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Oh sorry my bad. It's still scheduled for may 21st. I hope no one was mislead by that error.

Why do i not remember saying the bolded? Because you are lying again. True christians obey the word of God, anyone who disobeys God is not a child of God, the Bible said that not me. Don't you have criteria for separating science from pubtalk? is that also the no true scotman fallacy?
1John 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And here, you go with the fallacy of equivocation on the word "book". You really need to start avoiding committing fallacies. The books I'm talking about are those that are in some Bibles and others that were referred to by people in the Bible. And of course there are books held as sacred by other religious groups.

Any tom or harry group can put something in it's Bible. some add contents and preface, some references, some dictionaries, some add concordance, some add their pastor's notes, and some add books. the books that are constant and cannot be removed so flimsily are the BIBLE. Books may be referred to in the Bible, but they are not the Bible.

So is it the Bible that teaches you not to enslave other people?

Oui.

Did Adam know the difference between right and wrong? That is the core question used in deciding culpability for a crime. Try not to evade the core question again.

Yes

This of course makes no sense. How could he have ruled over people that he could not reach? Note what your Bible said. It said where there were people or animals, he ruled. But it is obvious that he could not have ruled Australia, North America or South America which had people and animals. Therefore, your Bible is again wrong in saying he ruled over the whole world.

While i've explained this to you before, i still await your proof that he could not have ruled Australia, North America or South America.

Look closely. I've given you the definition of slave I'm using.

And why do you avoid the word 'servant'?

And this again is the problem with religious beliefs. Do you have to believe the sun to see it?

The sun is not spiritual or a spirit. John 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

@Tonye-t
2Timothy 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
2Timothy 2:21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
We are in a race, a press for God's Kingdom, for Heaven. It's like what people do when there's a vacancy in an organisation. The job description, criteria and qualification is published. this is what is used in the organisation's choosing. If you meet the standards, you're qualified, chosen as it were. But you still need to apply, and not to disqualify yourself but prepare well for the interview.
Eph. 1:4 - Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
Do remember that many are called but few are chosen. he actually calls many at different times and places, but chooses few. The few chosen meet His criteria that's why. What is the criteria? It's repentance and faith(Of course grace is God's). For whoso confesses and forsakes his sin WILL have mercy. God is true to His Word. It's like when the organisation already had a plan/blueprint, they already chose/qualified people with a set of qualities ever before they released an advert. they already had it in mind that they wouldn't employ people without these qualities. God loved us all, and chose us all in Christ. He so loved the world, Christ died for us all not a set of people. But it is those that endure to the end that would be saved, those that endure to the end. We've all been chosen and loved even as sinners. We can choose to be vessels unto honour, and available for the Master's use.

And what if i tell you that this passage you quoted was still part of the script the playwright would want you to come across. Ok! see this analogy. Steven Spielberg screen writes a movie titled My design   and in this play everyone keeps to their role, no derails no shortfalls everything perfect as it should be. A guy is named Adam having a wife whom he is taught to call Eve. And then this Steven guy poops out and gives them instruction not to eat garri from a certain pot(recall this line in the def. of the puppeteer - "In some instances the persona of the puppeteer is also an important feature". and then he disappears and manipulates them to eat this garri just so his movie - My Design, will come out perfect. And just later he repoops and asks them what happened to the pot of garri as if He did not know  and drives them away and the story goes on and on and on!

In Adam's case, he's not taught to call his wife Eve. He does it on his own. And god did not manipulate Adam and Eve to eat anything. the Bible records that satan/the serpent deceived them. they didn't have to be deceived i.e fall for the deceit. Jesus, the last Adam was also tempted, he overcame. Adam was built to overcome, he could easily have, his test was so cheap. Actually, he wasn't even deceived but willfully disobedient(1Timothy 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.). God's ultimate plan was that we should have dominion over all things (and i many times think also to replace the devil and his boys). For these, we are still on course and it would be done. but it'll be done by those that are saved.

Now Image123, tell me you dont believe this things played out in the creation; garden of eden experience and I will say you dont believe God is Omniscient in attribute and nature.

Adam and Eve were built/created to pass the garden of Eden experience, it's unfortunate maybe that they literally had a mind of their own. God is omniscient. He's also just and righteous in attribute and nature. We do not fully understand God. What's the picture of God's omniscience in scriptures? And what's the picture of His omnipotence and omnipresence. A balanced view of these may give us a renewed view on His omniscience.

@Tonye-t
I believe just like JeSoul(who everybody's claiming to be their sista, not knowing that she's originally my sista ) that these things are more complex than our logic and reasonings. that's why we pray for grace because we don't know it all. We know in part, even the apostles are seeing through a glass darkly. i sincerely believe that we christians are like God i.e godly, and that ALL THINGS work together for good for us. When we say that, it doesn't mean that everything goes as we've planned it. But that in every situation we find ourselves, we are able to pick something for our betterment, and ultimately for our good. I believe it's the same thing with God, that every situation favours Him, and that ultimately He wins on every side.

4 questions we should ask:

Who created these puppets?

Did the puppeteer have a purpose for creating them?
Did he know their destinations/ fate?
Were they in control of the choices they made?
Did they influence the events of their lives or the grand puppeteer did?

The distinct thing between us and these puppets/robots is that we are all created in the image of God. The import of this is that we UNDENIABLY have a will. We can actually CHANGE OUR MINDS. It's all over scriptures. What God desires of us is a relationship, He doing His part and we doing our part in unison. the carnal/natural man usually would want to be independent and CAN BE. If one chooses to be independent, he'll suffer for it because there just 2ways; God's way and hell's way, and they are both in the divine blueprint. God has His will, and He desires that it be manifest in earth. that's why we pray 'let Your will be done in earth'. If it would be automatically done like in the puppet/puppeteer scenario, we would not need to pray. All prayer would then be useless. But to find god's will and to align ourselves with it is the best position for us as God's creatures. It's like a doctor-patient relationship, the patient needs the doctor and needs to yield to the doctor's prescriptions for treatment. He may decide to avoid the doctor or disobey the doctor, then he wouldn't get well.
Romans 6:13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
 There are sometimes when a patient might be forced to the doctor, or refusing treatment. In such a case, he might need be sedated. In such a case, we might argue a forced treatment as it were, but this is not a norm. In the same way, we sometimes see God intervene directly as it were in the lives of some, maybe/usually due to another's prayer. It's visible in some salvation experience, or major decision making to favour His own. But this is not a general thing. there are many sick people who do not seek treatment from the doctor, and who disobey the doctor. The whole world is sick and we need God, and the best we should do is have a good doctor-patient relationship with God.
Psalm 40:8  I ;delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Like i said, God's will is not forced on man because we have our own will, and can actually DECIDE, or CHANGE OUR MINDS. Look at the scriptures below for instance;
Matthew 22:2  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son.
Matthew 22:3  And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
You see hat in this passage, the people exercised their will (they would not come), even though they were called. The kings plan and will was that they should come. this is how Jesus said that the kingdom of God is like.
Proverbs 1:29  For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Proverbs 1:30  They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Proverbs 1:31  Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Proverbs 1:32  For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Proverbs 1:33  But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
In Isaiah, God says  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
If it were not possible for us to do these things, God would not require it. It would be inconsistent with His nature. i say it again, if we had no will of our own, but had God running the show, there'll be no need for prayers of any sort.
Deuteronomy 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The very good thing is that the consequences and rewards of our choice are laid open before us by God's Word, that's why it sometimes seems as if it's planned/caused by God. Did God have a purpose for creating us? Yes, we were formed to show God's praise. Isaiah 43:21  This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.
But we don't all show forth this praise, do we? there's punishment for those who do not show forth His praise. When you create or buy something for a particular purpose, and it doesn't fulfil it's purpose, what do you do?
Did God know our destinations and fate? Tough question really, because i'll say a shocking unpopular 'not exactly'. God had a plan, a destination or fate for us definitely, but because we have a will, we can actually decide whether to tow that road or not.
Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
It seems obvious that there was no certainty here. We know of God's plan of Cannanland and deliverance from Egypt, but the children of Israel had their part to play. God willed them for Canaan, they all perished in the wilderness, and at many times planned to return to Egypt.
Are we in control of the choices we make? Do we influence the events of our lives or God does? It depends, like the doctor-patient relationship. We may be(which in many cases is really the devil). We may put it in God's hands, but He never takes 100% control, the spirit of the child of god is still subject to him. There are still somethings he must decide. God will not all day tell you what to cook, wear, eat, when to sleep, pray, read, study etc. It's not His way or plan. He desires a working and growing relationship, together, fellowship. He seeks communion not dominion. It's evil spirits that tend to dominate and possess people.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
The abide decision is ours. In His own part, he'll not leave us. But we can actually leave Him which is our wrongcall.
Just a 'minute'

Thank God for today. God remains the same yesterday, TODAY and forever. God, who raised up Jesus Christ from the dead and caused Him to appear to His witness in Jerusalem can raise you up TODAY from any dead/buried situation that you may find yourself, and allow Jesus Christ to be revealed to you. Amen.
When Jesus rose early on Sunday morning, He showed Himself to His witnesses over a period of 40 days before ascending to Heaven. We have about twelve separate/distinct accounts of His INFALLIBLE proof. We'll briefly list them below;
1. Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene. Mark 16:9  Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
2. Jesus appeared to the other women coming from the tomb. Matthew 28:9  And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him.
3. Jesus appeared to Simon Peter. Luke 24:34  Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
4. Jesus appeared to two disciples going to Emmaus. Mark 16:12  After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
5. Jesus appeared to His disciples in a room at the evening of the resurrection Sunday. Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
6. Jesus appeared the next Sunday to the disciples and Thomas. John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace, be unto you.
7. Jesus appeared to seven disciples at the sea of Tiberias. John 21:1  After these things Jesus showed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise showed he himself.
8. Jesus appeared to His disciples and led them to Bethany. Luke 24:50  And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
9. Jesus appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee. Matthew 28:16  Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
10. Jesus appeared to James, the Lord's brother. 1Corinthians 15:7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
11. Jesus appeared to more than 500 brethren at once. 1Corinthians 15:6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
12. Jesus appeared to all the apostles. 1Corinthians 15:7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Infallible stuff really, what Jesus did. No wonder the disciples said in Acts 4:20  For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. Before the saw, they were afraid, locked up, moving sadly(And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?Luke 24v17). But Jesus arose, and appeared. Some people think He never died, but that He woke from a coma and was moving about limping until he disappeared. how can that be? Soldiers were paid to guard His tomb. Is it the fearful disciples in hiding that would have overpowered the Roman soldiers, or a weak, wounded Jesus coming out of a perceived coma. How could He have rolled away the stone? how could He have inspired His disciples who became ultra-bold for the rest of their lives? John said "1John 1:1  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1John 1:2  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us "
Peter spoke with boldness to the priests, sadducees and religious leaders. Acts 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God RAISED FROM THE DEAD, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
They cold not deny it! The text says, THEY COULD SAY NOTHING AGAINST IT. Infact they themselves said "We cannot deny it". It embarrassed their religious bigotry, His resurrection molested their hypocrisy. Matthew 28:12  And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
Matthew 28:13  Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
Matthew 28:15  So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
You know we can benefit immensely from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or we can choose to remain in darkness like the 'elders' and consellors, but I pray we'll benefit. Jesus came for us all, ALL of us. WHOSOEVER believes Him will have this good abundant eternal life. You can believe TODAY.

Hallelujah

Martian:
I read it silently, I read it aloud, I read it slowly, I even rearranged some words BUT what this guy wrote still doesn't make sense.

This^ with the combo of that nectar's post gave me a 'tough' laugh into the night. Arabic english?

Wow, these are gladdening news, both of pastor adelaja and of the healings. Who says God does not heal amputees. Is that an 'amputated eye' healed in 2011 in europe? even in the grave, Jesus is Lord. Alleluia

@thehomer

Well, you thought wrong. Proof is different from evidence when it comes to science. How did I deny mathematics? Again, carefully read what I wrote. I don't think English is that difficult.

i thought wrong? Where's your definition for science? what's with this your semantics, what's your definition of proof, and of evidence, of course WHEN IT COMES TO SCIENCE. You denied maths when you said "Science doesn't do proofs because it relies on evidence. You get proofs in mathematics and logic." Mathematics is a science.

It seems you wish to simply lie here because you still did not cite any scientific literature. And the links you gave which you have said you do not need to read demonstrate that you are wrong. So you give links that contradict you yet you refuse to acknowledge when you are wrong? Why would you do that? Please present three of these scientists saying that humans evolved 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.

i'm not interested in links, you are. You state out these lies i'm accused of. The links do not contradict me. i  skimmed through one just now (the jamestown link). It says in one paragraph that "The period starting about 10,000 years ago is called the Holocene epoch. this is also known as the time of modern man." It's almost like i was the one that inserted it there! i don't need to present any scientists to you. Go and study geology or something.

So in other words, you may be wrong? Especially when it is not being backed by scientific reasoning? You have to realize that it's not only what you see that is true. There are other and better ways of discovering that something is true.

Are you soliloquizing here? sounds so much like what i should be saying to you. You have to realize that it's not only what you see that is true. There are other and better ways of discovering that something is true.

Look it up. I will not spoon feed you with such trivial information.

You were the one that said "Scientific theory doesn't mean what you think it means. ". So what does it mean, since it doesn't mean what i think it means, be kind thehomer.

Both of us have seen this so have many who have come before us and many others now.

i've not seen it, you're infringing on my rights, where is justice, are you going barbaric on me?

Of course. Like I said, you made it clear that you would still introduce this God even where he is not needed.

Introduce God? Not needed? God is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He cannot be 'not needed'. The universe and life didn't start out of nothing. It is In the beginning GodGenesis 1v1. Before hydrogen, God. Before gravity, God. Before nebula, God. He is the Everlasting God.

How do you decide which part is metaphor and which isn't? Couldn't the genealogy of Jesus have been a metaphor?

By common sense, or by asking people like me who know Him more than you do.

The question was where did you see this information? I've checked and it's there so, it  probably did happen. Have you read about how that was suspected to have happened?

Now you believe, because thou hast seen, thou hast believed. Don't be a doubting Thomas.

Wow. This must be a very tough dance to perform. So the metaphor is actually the real thing? Again, how do you decide what is actually being spoken about? All it sounds like you're doing is that you're forcing the Bible to fit with what we actually currently know. Please avoid such gymnastics especially when we actually do know what clay seals are.
I notice how you tend to fill the post with a lot of noise when the facts clearly contradict your Bible.

They say you can take a horse to the stream but you can't force it to drink. i leave you to your illusions on this.

Where did I concede this? I only pointed out that you were simply lying about having read the link even after I pasted the relevant paragraph on this thread. So please do yourself a favour and look up the relevant information.

You conceded when you said "You have chosen to quote mine.". i was saying "You said we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope, i said no we cannot. The wiki link prove we cannot observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope. Have been highlighting that word all along, but it seemed you were more obssessed with your link than anything else.".

Are belief and trust evidence? (Did you notice that the word "evidence" does not appear and is not implied in that definition?) So if you believe and trust your banker, this is evidence of what?

This is evidence OF THINGS NOT SEEN. Is it really that difficult?

Actually, mathematics and logic are basically tools used in science. And yes proofs are for mathematics and logic. It seems you have a lot of learning to do. I'll advice you to get to it.

Mathematics is not just a tool in science, it is a MAJOR BRANCH of science.

You don't seem to get it. I said the album itself may be considered divine not necessarily that the person who performed it was divine or claimed to be divine. Even the Bible writers and translators are not considered to be divine. The album is quite popular. Most reviewers rate it 5 stars. Whether or not you know it is popular does not diminish the fact that it is the best selling album of all time.

No one claims the divinity of the album except you as far as i know. The 'writers of the Bible' claimed divine inspiration and most part took what was written to be scripture/divine/the word of God.

Because it is obviously not forgotten and is not insignificant.

If it was significant enough, you'd have a copy instead of the many copies of bible that you have. you'd read and quote it if it was significant. you'd be bold to say the name.

Yes it is according to you because that makes no sense. If God has done the healing, then what is the use of killing animals and playing with their blood?

no sense to you obviously, but a lot of sundry lessons for believers. If you sincerely wanted to know and needed to know, i'd tell you.

Of course. Then the No True Scotsman fallacy appears. I guess this means that you have the True Christianity. You need to realize that you cannot simply say that only people today are True Christians but not those bad people there. Of course he's always coming. Maybe he'll be here on May 25th. We'll see.

You're still taking your fallacy lessons, i see.  you fall right in the net the moment you think all that have faith are wrong, all that do religion are wrong and you right. I didn't say only people today are true christians. Where do you usually get these claims about me? So you got to shift Christ's coming to May 25th? i thought you had a thread for a earlier date? Are you shifting Judgement Day?

This is really sad. You now go for a circular argument? A book that is irrelevant is not in the Bible because the ones in the Bible are not irrelevant. This is very sad. I hope you realize that there are books before and after the Bible e.g the Torah and the Qur'an among others. Then the Catholic Bible with the books of Maccabees, Tobit etc. Then there are the others from which the Abrahamic religions draw their myths e.g the book of Enoch. Please educate yourself on the mythology and history of your favourite religion.

What is sad? that you feel powerless to do what i dared you to? Cheer up, don't be sad. there's joy unspeakable awaiting you in God's kingdom. i didn't say there are no other books. Heck, even my 'preacher' writes books. I've not said all books are wrong or something. i've said the Bible is the Word of god, and it's to be believed above any other. It's from there you've been asking questions, recall?

The point is to show that your choice is simply arbitrary.

The point was poorly delivered then. My choice has saved me from sin and from satan, and is leading me DAILY to eternal life with God.

What would you call someone who has no knowledge of good and evil? Do you think people like e.g children and mentally handicapped people can be described as naive?

you are coming home little by little. Children and mentally handicapped people may be described as naive. And children or mentally handicapped people don't maintain huge garden of Edenic grace, or have ability to replicate them elsewhere like Adam and Eve had. Even the world best brains have to come/combine together to achieve something near such today. Children don't know what to put in their mouth for food, or whether to live as partners to animals or not. Adam knew this. To help you, do you consider that Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree of life? Is it safe for you to say on the same lines of reason that they had no life, but were dead?

You're welcome.

Were you even following on this?

Sorry but what you've said above makes no sense because Nebuchadnezzar did not know about the Americas neither did he know about Australia. I doubt he knew about China back then. And of course, there were animals in those places. You're simply saying whatever you want your Bible to say but as we know, it's in English and is once again shown to be quite wrong. And as usual, when this is clear, you try to chuck in a lot of words to try to hide the fact that it is wrong and this fact is clear. If you think there were no people or animals in those places, then please take the time to learn something about world history.

It's becoming customary of you to assume things i did not say.  If people lived anywhere and Nebuchadnezzar knew of it, then he sure ruled over them. We say for instance that Nigeria was ruled by the British government. But decades after, some places in nigeria were discovered(i think in taraba?) where people do not even wear clothes. Most likely, the British never knew this tribe, they didn't even know of our crude oil. Do we now say o, the british didn't rule? Nebuchadnezzar was King. he ruled over every land that He knew of. the whole was given him by God. Nobody/nation could stand in his way.
Dan 2:37  Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38  And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
It seems you've omitted the bolded in your interpretation of the passage. If Nebuchadnezzar knew there were people in Lagos, he'd rule them, it didn't matter their power, he conquered. And history tells us of the empire/kingdom that conquered and took over from the Babylon kingdom, and took over world domination. It's in agreement with this bible prophecy.

Actually, this would be clearly dishonest because slavery is mentioned in the Bible but abortion isn't.

i checked it in the kjv, i can't find it. Even the word slave, i found just once. I see 'servant' instead. Why do you avoid the word 'servant'?

Why has God chosen to hide himself from the rest of us?

If you can believe, you WILL see.

This is yet another long post of just hand waving and attempted obfuscation. Just to understand what you're saying, are you comparing football trades to slave trade in which the person being sold is sold to a family as property to be inherited?

You're the person trying hard to obfuscate issues. i've pointed you to MANY examples of servants(or slaves as you seem to prefer) in the Bible. Their lives are a practical testimony of servants and the ways they were treated by God's people. The scripture is balanced and complete, not lobsided in emphasis like yours. You saw the big deal about buying and selling people.

Keep in mind the fact that those slaves in the Bible could be bought and sold

Now i showed you that our civil people today even buy and sell humans for entertainment. they even buy people for free. Now you have issues with people been inherited, if i pointed out analogies/similarities, you'll jump to yet another issue. i think you started with 'young virgins'.

One that may be beaten and when beaten, it's okay for them to die after one day? Are you being serious? I identified the sort of slavery I was referring to to avoid this sort of fallacy of ambiguity yet you wish to wallow in it.
Your reference to Elisha was that he was a good role model but you ignore the sort of person who would like to have children killed for mocking his baldness. This is a terrible sort of insecurity. So, would you like to be a "Biblical slave"?

Anyone could be beaten in the old testament, you didn't need to be a servant, and anyone might be killed as well, stop been mawkish.

Exo 21:20  And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exo 21:21  Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Num 35:30  Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
Num 35:31  Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
Servants could not be treated poorly by God's people compared to the brutality of the heathen nations around them. If you wounded your servant, you'd lose him, i believe you also saw that in the Bible?
I referred Elisha as a servant who became GREAT. You say he's 'a sort of person who would like to have children killed'? That's all you really saw in the life of Elisha? Again, you're been sentimental, what, you'd have preferred they were 42 adults? Or what's your point about them been children? If Biblical slaves are Daniel, Esther, Elisha, Abraham's servant, the disciples, Joseph and co, oh, please count me in. No condition is permanent.
Colossians 4:1  Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
Deuteronomy 24:14  Thou shalt not oppress a hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:
Deu 23:15  Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:
Deu 23:16  He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.

i hope your eyes do not skip these above when you look for the Bible's 'sayings about servants'.

So, God has changed. He is no longer the sort of tribal barbaric God that he was? Yet you will also at the same time claim he doesn't change. What sort of mental gymnastics do you use to explain the fact that he used to command genocides but now only recommends things society as a whole decides is appropriate?

God has not changed, we've been through this before. All these your petulant accusations do not do not bring the tiniest stain on God or His people. i told you, God is in a relationship with the human race, as a relationship grows things may change but not necessarily the individual. i gave an illustration, of how a father may beat up his little kid, or how a mother may breast feed her baby. As time goes on, the mother may not breast feeding the child and the father not have to beat up the child. It's not exactly that they changed or 'repented/remorsed/regretted'. It's actually another phase of life. It's like sometimes we say "the sun is hot, or the sun has gone down, or it has reduced in intensity". In the real sense, the sun didn't go anywhere or reduce it's heat. the earth shifted, or some cloud covered. When Jesus came in the new testament, He came with power for us as humans, and to bring us into a richer and better relationship with God. It's going long so let me stop.

I'll give you three. Look up Denmark, Finland, Norway and their choice of support of human rights. You may wish to know that God consistently fails to support human rights.

Support of human rights. That's a scopeless statement, it boils down to what each person and country call human right. i'll scope it to include freedom, justice, and equality i guess.
Freedom- are there any prisoners in Denmark or everyone is free?
Justice- are there different courts in Finland where people can plead from one court to another? Or there's fairness all round? talk is cheap, even becoming cheaper in nigeria where i stay.
Equality- Do they have leaders or grades and hierarchy in Norway, or everyone is the same? Same salary, same class, same everything.
So God doesn't support 'human rights', you are a poor student of the Bible.

This is yet another attempt at trying to define a problem away. How is the case dismissed? What God ordered fits the above description. The fact that the word was unavailable or that there was no international law against it then does not make it right. Go back and ask your God why he ordered humans to kill other humans when he could have used one of his many acts to do that.

Did you notice in that quote i gave you that genocide became crime in 1951? If next year, the government says it's illegal for you to post on nl, would they charge/pick you for posting last week? it's common sense. It was in the past, and the people who even fought are dead and buried, they are not standing in your petty trial. Hundreds of years before the world thought of this, Jesus already showed the way. You're so late to the party.
Matthew 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
God created all things, and can use anything. Always remember that.

Yet for some reason, you still cannot see that they cannot be compared in that manner? This is why we use the phrase "apples to oranges". Why do I have to also teach English Language in a discussion that uses the language? Look up the meaning of that expression here
Now you are simply being absurd. If I said that over a 24 hour period 3000 years ago on Australia, the earth rotated on its axis. Would that be a guess? Does it require faith to make such a statement?
The "in a sense" refers to the looking back in time. Please try and carefully read what I wrote.

Now your quote above is a classic example of "apples to oranges". The earth rotates on it's axis everyday, anyone can see it from a satellite, and 3000years ago is a safe timeframe. It might for instance, not be safe to say that the earth rotated on it's axis some few trillion years ago, according to you there was even no earth then. It's world-apart different from seeing one star 'seem to' annihilate ones in some couple of years, and then begin to build stories and castles on how the star formed so-so billion years ago from say silicon, and then was XYZm in diameter and became FGH some million years ago and etcs.

@thehomer

You seem to favour long posts with lots of misinformation and misrepresentation. I do not.

i try to explain things, give illustrations, analogies and comparisons so that you may see things from the angle believers see them. i'll see to be brief sha, didn't know it bothered you.

This is the usual attempt at dancing away from questions that are clearly important. I hope you realize that according to what you've written above, it's God's fault that I do not believe him. If it takes a miracle, then clearly his intervention is needed.

i believe that i've been as detailed as possible, answering you almost per sentence, it's dishonest for you to accuse me of shying/dancing away from your questions. It's not God's fault that you do not believe. All men do not believe by default, i was once an unbeliever too. It did take a miracle, and God's intervention for me and for all believers. It's not a matter of been born as in a christian family or locale. Every man has to believe by him/herself. Jesus was sent by God to intervene. He died to pay for our sins, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, in His payment/work, would not perish. the ball is in YOUR court as it were.

You clearly miss the point of my argument. My point is that I see no rational basis for this belief that you have so your attempt to sell it to me fails. If you want it to succeed, then go and speak with your God to do what he knows he needs to do to attract one like myself. So, your God is at my mercy if he truly desires people to go to his heaven.

Did i miss it? You were talking about how you didn't know that a person had to REPENT, that you thought it was only FAITH. Plus i was telling you the best way for you to get answers to your 'questions'.  Life is more complex than grouping things into rational and irrational alone. Not everything is subject to that classification. Some loverelationships may not, your preference or love or hate for a particular food, or name, or course may not always be under the class of rational and co. My belief is not subject to your rational basis/biases, it transcends it. God desires you and me to go to Heaven because option B is not too pleasant. you either go to Heaven or Hell.

I advice you to look carefully in your bible you will see the references made to slaves i.e the type that people buy, own and pass on to other family members, beat almost to death (may die one or two days after the beating). But since abortion isn't there, why does that issue clearly divide Christians?

i do know what you're talking of and have a better understanding of it than you do. i'm simply 'playing thehomer', going with the evidence. I DON'T FIND SLAVERY OR ABORTION IN ALL OF MI BIBLE. It's quite easy to play thehomer, it seems.

Whether or not I'm an amputee is irrelevant. My question is why does he not heal amputees? According to you, there may not have been amputees in the past for Jesus to heal? This is simply absurd. Amputees have been recorded from more than 500 years BCE and was known to the Romans who controlled the region. Look up lame and cripple. They are quite different from one who is amputated.
You see, the problem is that he simply could not have done those things that were written. Or do you think Sathya Sai Baba (who is still alive I may add) is actually able to conjure up food? Jesus needed someone to donate some food for him to share but this guy can make food appear. Do you have enough faith to believe in him?

Haa, so you failed to answer my question, are you shyyy? i don't see that word 'amputee' in my Bible. But i do see cases that might have been amputees, and worse than amputees, and i saw God take care of them. he raised the dead, he parted the sea, he walked on water, he brought water out of the Rock. Do you believe that He did these things? do sincerely answer, because if you do not believe, neither would you even it was written for you in every book in the Scriptures that God healed amputees.
Matthew 12:15  But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Please, what's the difference between lame, cripple and amputee? i don't know Sathya, but i know that magicians can do tricks and perform miracles. i don't follow/believe them because they can't save themselves, talk less me. they can't rise from the dead, and they are not from God. BTW, Jesus could feed people from nothing if He wanted to. He fed millions in the wilderness for 40years, He fed his disciples at the lake side when He resurrected. i'll brb

We've looked rather extensively at the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ. It would not suffice to say that He(Jesus Christ) is the reason for the season. We know He died, and that His death was important and priority for all of mankind/humanity. The Scriptures tell us that He died to redeem us i.e to buy us back to Himself/God.
Titus 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from ALL iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
We were sold to satan and to sin. Actually the transaction was carried between Adam and satan, when Adam submitted dominion to satan by following him in the stead of God. God had given Man dominion and the earth. Man lost it and fell, but Jesus came to get it back for us. The legal means in the spiritual realm was this payment. Jesus paid for us all, on our accounts. It's then up to every one of us individually to withdraw from our account the price Christ Jesus paid in our name. It's been paid into every account by the death of Jesus. You have no excuse to remain bound to sin and satan(and their influences). Christ has paid it all.
 But Jesus did not only die, as important as His death is. Jesus also rose again. Jesus Christ rose from the dead never to die again. That's what makes Him the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1v18). Jesus' resurrection is as important as His crucifixion, death and burial are. I think it's safe to say that Christ died to take away the GUILT of sin, and that He arose to take away the POWER of sin. Those are two important things, the GUILT and the POWER. Christ came to deal with the two. Have you become free from the two(guilt and power of sin)? This is the complete package. this is the FULL gospel.
So, to 'the reason for the season'. Jesus Christ arose on Sunday morning. That's why Christians usually refer to Sunday as the Lord's day. It's a biblical practice as well. John the beloved referred to it in the book of Revelation, when he said "Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day". So there you have it, the Lord's day! And when Jesus rose again, He showed Himself with MANY PROOFS, to His witnesses.
Acts 1:3  To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
We have recorded in scriptures, about 12 different appearances of Christ to His witnesses. These 12 of course were not the only appearances, but they've been specially recorded in the Bible for us.  in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Matthew 18:16b; 2Corinth 13:1b. Wow, so generous, He gave us twelve 12 YIPPEE!!! We'll consider those twelve next.

Acts 2:24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

New LOWS i'm gaynnnnning everydayyyyy

It is finished, It is finished, It is finished says the LORD.