₦airaland Forum

@thehomer

You're claiming that we cannot understand what a humane punishment would be. Now, I ask you, which of those punishments would you prefer to be administered to you?

You'll be eerh lying here. i didn't claim that we cannot understand what humane punishment would be. Maybe you're not following, i said judgements are relative from one person to another. my preferences may be similar to yours, they may not be. Take for instance, students to be punished in a class; the punishment was for them to write "i'm sorry" 1000 times. Some students gladly write it and even engage actively in helping others write it. Some others would just prefer not to write it but take some strokes of the cane. You see two classes of choice in the same class. God's judgements cannot be perfectly weighed by one man (thehomer)'s standards. God's judgements are God's judgements, They are holy and righteous, and i consider them so. Plus God is not man, and cannot be subject to man but vice versa.

Your reference to God laws as a standard also makes no sense because God breaks his laws, he encourages his people to break these laws too and sometimes carries out these same laws on his people. So you see, God himself is also inconsistent.

These are lies that you're writing. It's also possible you do not understand what you've read, or you're looking from the wrong perspective. For another instance, what a judge does to an offender isn't a crime e.g killing a man for killing a man. In the law, the judgement is perfectly in order and the offender is wrong, yet it's a similar action.

comparing moral actions to physical measures is an apples to letters comparison.

i thought i said "that's why we have international standards for everything, volume, length, weight, money, manufacturing etc.", and i mentioned man's standards and constitutions that have to be reviewed from time to time. the reason for including "physical measures" is because you're a physical person. i'm hoping you can at least get an idea from the physical which you love to bigger matters (the spiritual). Like for instance, take lenght as a measure. If everyone had his own length, my metre may be different from yours. What i sell to you as my 3yards may be your 1 yard, in which case you may consider me a cheat. If my 3yards is your 10yards, you may be thanking 'your lucky stars' while an observer may see you as gullible. But when we all have the International standard's tape rule measurement, 3yards is 3yards, whether in Lagos, Onitsha or Tokyo. That's why we pray  to God "let Your will be done in earth as it is done in Heaven". we want Godly standards and it's revealed to us in a measure through scriptures.

there is an explanation of the reason why the solar system is the way it currently is that does not need some God snapping his fingers all over the place. So, you simply need to ask a better question. And get yourself informed.

What is that explanation? Please educate me. BTW, God doesn't need to go 'snapping his fingers all over the place'. He upholds all things by the word of His power. That's one reason why He's so different from harry potter. I believe you're aware that the earth is at a particular angle/tilt and moves at a particular speed, at some particular distance to the centre of the solar system and other planets? i hope you're aware that a little deviation, just a little deviation from these parameters can end all human life? (that's science btw). Now, you're saying it's all coincidence that all these parameters are in place? All the planets going on their own orbits, all the calculation and precision, its all chance? big bang happenstance? think again, you were created an intelligent being.

1Peter 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Psa 50:12  If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fullness thereof.

Psa 93:1  The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.

What would the fool that said in his heart that there is a God do? They too are corrupt and do abominable work and according to this God, no one is worthy of his heaven. Besides, how about those who don't believe in this God yet are not corrupt and have done good works?

That's why it's not enough to say in your heart that there's a God. You need to know what God, and to repent, and to get wisdom. But not believing that there's a God automatically puts one in the class of fools, and fools do have degrees and orders. All these things are in the Bible. It's not enough for a man to just listen to a part of the budget speech, and run off shouting "the President just called me a fellow, we're mates/equals". the speech is more than the anthem and "fellow nigerians" greeting . In God's word, it's written that God's people perish for lack of knowledge. It's still important to learn at every stage. But if you miss out at the very beginning, how can you get to the other stage/round?
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Actually, we have telescopes nowadays. Really, go and read and understand so that you do not make yourself sound so ignorant.

You're throwing accusations in the air, can you be more specific as to where i've spoken 'so ignorant'. Do you really see/observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly with telescopes nowadays? Are you not scientifically aware that the youngest star is older than the whole of the human race? that's why i said you're talking as if you're referring to balloons. No one can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope, don't be deceived please.

Your accusation of faith is also false because science does not rely on faith. Unless you have a special definition of faith and you wish to also equivocate on your definition of faith. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence or contrary to the evidence. Science simply works based on the evidence. It's the direct antithesis to faith.

Faith is believing. you believe that the stars form and annihilate regularly, why? have you seen it for yourself? No, i'm certain. why do you believe it so much? someone said so, maybe your teacher, lecturer, discoverychannel, a textbook. those 'facts' about the universe would soon be reviewed yet again, it's not going to be the first time. btw, where did you gett this your faith definition(just curious, it's nothing serious).

What you've presented is a history of how we came to know what we know about the shape of the earth. Get with the times. We now have satellites in space giving us precise measurements. And we actually do know that the earth is neither a circle nor an oval it is three dimensional thereby throwing those out.

i think we're saying the same thing. The line was that you mentioned that "the claim of a Creator is in dispute as many do not accept the creator?.And i said that many do not believe in something does not make it untrue, and i recall calling your statement a fallacy. i gave an example that many are illiterate and are not aware of the earth's shape. And that even the learned ones remaining are not agreed on the shape of the earth. i don't think i've disputed or agreed to the shape of the earth on this thread, i was only drawing out a point which you're agreeing to. Literates disagree on the fact of the shape of the earth. It doesn't change the FACT of the shape of the earth. Are you aware that there are literates who still believe that the earth is flat? You may google up flatearth society and read about them. It really depends on the textbook you're reading, or the website or article. Don't come and bamboozle us with "We actually do know".

Sorry but foolishness is foolishness. If you claim to be a very wise ruler yet you make decisions arbitrarily, then for all intents and purposes, you are quite foolish. God is not sort of standard and based on what we see in the Bible, he is not qualified to decide any standards for humans.

Sorry foolishness is not foolishness, punishment is not punishment is it?
1Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Isaiah 40:15  Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Isaiah 40:17  All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

It's popularity does not make it divine. Neither does the world's tallest man or oldest person become divine so you need a better reason

Well, its popularity doesn't make it a random stranger as well, does it? The popularity is One reason, it's undeniable so i'll keep mentioning it. the tallest or oldest changes, and have rivals competing. The Bible is a distant almost embarrassing first. You can't compare lightning to tortoise, they are literally worlds apart.

It would have been divine if it were true or if it had fallen from heaven complete or something of that nature but you see, it is just an ordinary book. It does not perform magic spells, it burns very well when ignited and it doesn't float around in the Church. So, what are your criteria for deciding that something is divine? Better books have been written. It just depends on where your interests lie.

There are some books that are said to match this your amusing criteria, do you believe in them? the Bible is true, do you see anything false in it? If it was an ordinary book like you claimed, people would not continue reading it till they die. Some people actually read it everyday. You don't read ordinary books every day from when you're young till when you're old, even very old. Better books have been written? Like 'brighter grammar' abi? I'm waiting for your book o, hope you've started writing. Let's see if it will manage 10,000 copies, and if you yourself would even bother to re-read it in the next five years, not to blaspheme centuries.

If faith is the primary requirement then I'm better off not believing it because that just means I might as well believe any other religious text because faith is required to believe them too. If believing makes you see, then you're probably just hallucinating.

You might as well believe any other religious text, but you can choose not to. You have a mind, you can actually make decisions/choices.
Deuteronomy 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Faith is like the medium, the sense organ to perceive the spiritual/unseen realm. It's like you have eyes to see. It's not everything that you see that you accept/believe. You may see a trick, you may see a drama, you may see on TV. It's not everything 'religious'/spiritual that you accept/believe, there are fakes/false/deceivers out there too.

Do you know what the heart is? The heart is an organ that pumps blood. It does not have the vast parallel processing ability present in the brain. If you do not believe something based on reasoning or logic, then you might as well believe the moon is bigger than the sun.

unfortunately, the fall of man makes it difficult to actually discern/divide soul and spirit, so i wouldn't spend much energy on this. When i refer to the heart, i'm not referring to the physically organ located on the left chest that pumps blood. It's like people referring to expressions like "bottom of my heart, the heart of lagos, kind-heart, my heart sank, my heart goes out, my heart bleeds, take heart, wear your heart on your sleeve, heart in mouth".  that's the heart-type that i'm talking of.

You actually have to present something better than saying "many copies were printed therefore it is true." We look at the substance not just the numbers when deciding the quality of a particular item.

You compared the Bible to a random stranger, i had to quickly remind you of the undisputable FACT that the Bible is the world's most popular book by a wide margin compared to ANY other, it's not a random stranger. i didn't say therefore it is true, apart from the explanation just given, i stated that it's one reason why i believe it to be of divine origin. Human brains(notoriously goatherds and fishermen according to many agnostics) cannot produce something so world apart/ahead of the others. if it can, i've challenged you, you're 'more educated', vast, exposed, phdED, you have the internet, pdp, the UN and NASA at your disposal. Please do write a better book, i pray you.

I don't have the capacity to understand it?   If it's written in clear English, I guarantee you that I can understand it.

No you don't. the Bible is a spiritual book, it talks of another realm. Faith is what is required to experience the Bible and truly understand. In the physical realm, seeing is believing. In the God's spiritual realm, believing is seeing.
John 11:40  Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
It's like writing or speaking in another language. you might hear something or see something but you don't understand it except you speak that language.
It's like another dimension, a greater dimension, like 2D, 3D. 2-dimension cannot express 3-Dimension or better still in this case 4-Dimension.
It's not a matter for the head/brain, but for the heart. Understanding God takes a walk of faith(which you have and we all have).

Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Man believes with the heart, not the brain, not reasoning or logic. That's true turning to God and justification.

The key words being known world of the writers.

Did those empires not rule the known world of the writers. Did they not follow the order of the prophecy. when i say known world, i projected that you might refer to the far east where people didn't even know that a world existed. The only traces are archeology, the known world had a well known documented history. Those empires i mentioned i.e the roman empire, the grecian empire, the mede-persian empire, the babylonian empire, the assyrian empire, egyptian empire ruled the world unrivalled compared to the likes of portugese empire, french empire who had next door neighbours that were also empires. And this is the very prophecy that it divided and stayed divided (no dominant empire) until Jesus comes to reign.

Do you not find it strange that a God who created the earth and is omniscient does not seem to know the geography and major future global events in the world he created?

i find this most strange, did you dream this up?

Why is the God's knowledge limited to that of the writers of his tribe at the time of the writing?

was it? where's this limit? wish i could ask these as rhetorical questions so as not to de de-rail the thread?

Why I refuse to neglect the Bible is due to the effects it has and has been having on people for so many centuries.

Good boy, good decision. Be more profitably engaged in reading the Bible. John Adams says "it is the only book deserving of universal attention" great man, great words. i love this one from a former president,
"A man has deprived himself of the best there is in the world who has deprived himself of a knowledge of the Bible".

When people use it as a basis for child abuse, poor reasons for their actions and excuse for terrible atrocities, I simply have to act in one way or another.

Anything can be abused you know? Power, money, respect, faith, water, human, light, darkness, trust, devil anything. Act right by repenting and fill the void in you with the living waterr from Christ Jesus, the Saviour of the world.

So, you're free to ask him to meet me in the way that I would find acceptable.

Though this is addressed to someone else, i'll ask as well.
Lord Jesus, please meet thehomer in an acceptable way. Draw him near to you, and save him. Lord, you are mighty to save, have mercy on thehomer whom you died for at calvary. Let him find grace and forgiveness in Jesus name i pray. amen

@thehomer

Were you unable to pick a choice in the scenario I presented? Besides, it seems God's standards according to the Bible are indeed fickle.

Why are you 'dull of hearing'? do you want me to express it in your local dialect? i've said and i'll say it again. human reasoning is not trustworthy. Very clever people have clashes in their different opinions. one man's poison is another's meat, it's not about my 'yes' or 'no', or about my agreeing with you or disagreeing. Human judgement and intellect is relative, even with the same individual, not to mention the billions of humans around. The brain often confuses the issue of right and wrong depending on factors. The judgement person A might pass on a crime(say car theft) might be different now/fresh from next week, or from earlier thoughts, or from four years after, the judgement might differ depending on seeing the victim or not, and so on. What you/i call fair might be unfair to others. that's why there are standards and constitutions, an attempt at equity and these things are reviewed from time to time. that's why we have international standards for everything, volume, length, weight, money, manufacturing etc. god has His standards and He has revealed them to us through His word i.e the Bible. And it's hypocrisy/dishonesty/insincerity to turn a blind eye on the progression from the old testament to new testament. It's laziness, naive and impracticable to see these progressions as inconsistencies/fickle.

When you ask after the person who began the process of the formation of our star, you're asking a question whose assumptions are in question.

Assumptions? who's assuming that the earth just started all of a sudden and that all we see today just fell into place? you! Do you think your assumptions are not in question?

You need to understand that some of us have not assumed any God not to speak of your particular God.

Understand? it's not a surprise, you're not the first and may not be the last. The good thing is that some took a wise decision and repented from such.
Psalm 14v1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

You're also asking some questions that you should be able to answer yourself since you're connected to the internet. If you want to understand how we know these facts about the universe, you simply need to choose to educate yourself on them.

The questions are more of rhetorical i.e the questions about stars and distance. They were as regards your saying
"Do you not understand that the sun came about by physical processes? Stars form and get annihilated regularly without intervention from supernatural sources."
If science says that the youngest star is billions of years old, and the whole of mankind is less than 10,000 years old, where do you observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly? The sun is the closest star, man cannot reach it by travel in a lifetime, but you believe all the stories science says about it simply because you read it somewhere you think reliable. i said you have faith, alot of faith. It's just that you're not channeling it to the right Way. Facts about the universe ke? Abi theories, conjectures, modellings, simulations and projections.

What fallacy was that?

You said "the claim of a Creator is in dispute as many do not accept the creator?". i can also say many, verry very many accept the creator. you can't lay your dispute on the 'many' because many are also on the other side.

The fact that many people believe something does not make it true.

didn't state that it makes it true. But it does makes it relevant, and worthy of not just a second but a million looks.

And you are factually incorrect. We do know that the earth is a geoid and not amoeboid, oval or circle.

who are we? not for forgetting the context btw, i said "Even our few learned ones don't seem to be sure if the earth is round, circle, oval, sphere, spheroid, geoid, or plain amoeba". i didn't  say they were definitely ignorant. Here's one example still http://www.josleys.com/show_gallery.php?galid=313, here you'll see literates, even geologists and professors with varying views and postulations. In that page, you see these below;

The shape of the Earth has intrigued scientists throughout history. The general acceptance of the fact that the Earth is round. .
Pythagoras had already postulated a spherical Earth.
It was Isaac Newton who first claimed that the Earth is not spherical, but "oval".
MacLaurin shows that, as the angular momentum increases, the Earth will get ever more flat. The shape is an ellipsoid. The ellipsoid becomes a disc with an ever increasing radius.
the great Henri Poincaré. Poincaré called it piriforme ( pear shaped ).

Yes I am. Humans are generally rational agents and you God ought to be rational.

Do you assume that those animals see themselves as unintelligent or irrational? you're human, it's normal you'll call humans rational. If God decided to be foolish, His foolishness would be wiser than the wisest of man's wisdom. He's not the wisest God, He is the ONLY wise God. he's the standard to follow.

Isaiah 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
Romans 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

@kay 17
"except that ours is exceptional"
abcHaHa abcHaHa abcHaHa
I laugh in alphabets.

And someone complained that i was comparing man to fowl.

Jesus said 'there is none good but God'. In language, you may understand, it means no one can be really good without God, all OUR righteousness is as filthy rags atheists or theists.

@e36991
I sort of agree on the sin definition, that's why i said SIMPLY. As to devil, still of the opinion that he was more on earth, in charge of earth but with unlimited access to Heaven. i think he became more confined to earth with limited access to Heaven after the proud rebellion. Anyway where he was is not an issue. The point is that he missed God's standard of righteousness, that's what he had to do to court God's displeasure, he doesn't have anything created by God to blame for his fall.

not a religious major or whatever. Though not sure of the credibility of the happenings, one can't really put anything past the devil. It looks like and smells like his work. Devil's goal is to mar God's plans, he'll do it anyway anyhow. Satan tries to humiliate, debase man. He'll either possess man and make him act below his dignity/status like an animal, he can make man mad or act mad or mess with his senses, and he'll use anything (money, poverty, drugs, alcohol, sex, music anything).
The case of the man/men above is the similar popular case of spirit husband/wife. These men's psychology is going to be definitely messed up for a while if not permanently. Fear has been instilled, fornication committed one way or the other, bad dreams may trail, and what is referred to as destiny may have been tampered with. That's why it's important to be always protected against the devil, led by God's Spirit, and filled with God's knowledge, and circumspect.

We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood.

"If a wise man contends with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there's no rest" Proverbs 29v9

Am i missing something here? i supposed that the devil was on earth, not Heaven?
Sin is simply missing the mark of God's standard of righteousness. It's like there's a target of righteousness, anyone who fails to hit the mark has sinned. Jesus didn't need to be tempted to steal or fornicate, all He had to not do was miss the mark.

@harakiri
You're just being naughty and silly, learn to behave your age and at least act like someone with some exposure. So God supports incest and homosexuality? you no try. Go and improve your comprehension instead of forcing your urges into bible passages. People kiss as a form of greeting in some cultures. Read the passage in context with the whole plot of 1Samuel. It seems nothing satisfies you. If God punishes, He's cruel, if He doesn't punish, He's supporting wrong.your own judgements will condemn you on judgement day if you do not repent.

@Horus
The Bible didn't say that God destroyed sodom and gomorrah because of homosexuality. Always get your facts right please. Their cup of sins was full, and they were punished/judged, it's not stated anywhere in the Bible that it was an attempt to eradicate homosexuality.

Homosexuals, their family members, human culture and various professionals do not see it as a deficiency, abnormality or a pitiable state

This is a lie.

^some religious leaders do not preach about hell, almost at all, yet people still give a lot of money in these assemblies. Many 'prosperity churches' don't mention hell or the description you gave(which by the way) is not in the Bible. Jesus Christ spake the most about hell in the Bible, we believe him.

It's common world history, it's not only in the Bible: the roman empire, the grecian empire, the mede-persian empire, the babylonian empire, the assyrian empire, egyptian empire. These ruled the known world of the writers, and of major world history unlike the division of empires which by the way was prophesied. The british, french, russian, portugese and so on operate at the same time, just a couple hundred years ago. It's all there even. i simply gave you about 7, some of which you failed to understand, some you lumped together, some you flimsily excused. You showed you have little grasp of what you speak of. Even i mentioned one been fulfilled on nl, you say it's after.
What continually draws you to the scripture? You seem to be so inquisitive about the scriptures. You've consistently put other books at par. Do you read this books the same way and frequency? Does the void in you care to know more about 'the others' like the scripture which is able to fill you and give you an eternal inheritance? Why do you fail to neglect the Bible?

@thehomer
i see you're experiencing much problems with scriptures. That's why i try not to quote them to you, i know you don't have the capacity to understand it (1Corinthians 2v14). But you asked for Bible prophecies. Jesus said one cannot experience the kingdom of God except one's becomes as little children.(Matthew 18v3). That's the door, the gateway. There's very little i can do for you in that area. Jesus wasn't universally despised, and did not have children in a sense. I didn't quote that. Even Jesus himself said the prophecy referred to Him, i quoted that.
God condemns human sacrifices knowingly offered by humans to a deity. God accepted Jesus because He was the ONLY one QUALIFIED as sacrifice due to His sinless nature, not knowingly offered(they know not what they do).
A good Teacher will teach according to the learner's level of knowledge, not according to his. They don't teach above the syllabus/curriculum. The known/significant world, till about 500A.D, had major empires that exercised unparalleled dominion their time

You ask if i'll trust any random stranger? The Bible is not any random stranger. The Bible is number 1, numero uno in all the points i mentioned. It is a very distant number 1 compared to any other book. The gap becomes alarming when you mention harry joke or the other name you mentioned that i've never heard of, sorry. Even your candidate quran will still be far behind if it rigged.
You say for something to count as evidence to a human, it has to be detected in some way? Don't you know that faith counts as evidence to many humans in a way/realm in which you're not grasping.
We have professors and doctors today. We have people with exposure, experience and detailed research into human psychology. We have internet for them. Let them go ahead and produce a book that's better. The only reason for the Bible's prominence is its divine origin.

@thehomer
You say the claim of a Creator is in dispute as many do not accept the creator? Do you know that's a fallacy? you increased my love for this word mr homer. It's a fallacy because billions of people accept and have faith in a Creator. Do you know that over 1billion adults cannot read or write? i assume 1billion qualifies as many too. Is it safe to say that, asides some of the literates who may not agree, these over 1billion are oblivious to different facts? 'Many' do not bother about the earth's shape. Even our few learned ones don't seem to be sure if the earth is round, circle, oval, sphere, spheroid, geoid, or plain amoeba.
Am i comparing humans to poultry? Are you comparing humans to God? Do you have proof to sufficiently show that the Lord does not own the earth?

@thehomer
On humane and inhumane punishments, i've shown you already that choices are relative and changing. Different things affect perception of what's fair or not e.g education, religion, emotion, civilisation, relationship. God's standard is God's standard, humans adjust to His. Plus He's God not man. He gives godly punishment, not fickle ideas of humane/inhumane.
You say the sun came about by physical process. Who started these process na, lord lugard? Who put the elements in place. Go and make your sun, don't humans make things by physical process? Make your sun and star too by physical process na. Are you not an intelligent being again?
You say stars form and get annihilated regularly. See the way you're talking like you're talking of balloons. Is it not the same stars that they say are billions of years old? Is the sun not the closest to earth. Have you been to it, or observed this evidence of star formations regularly? You have a lot of faith, it's just the misuse.

Could you please present the best three fulfilled prophesies in your BIble?

Which one is 'your Bible', do you have your own. Anyway, in no particular order, let me mention 7(prophecy) fulfilled prophecies from scriptures.
1. There're so many about Christ Jesus but i'll give just some from the popular Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 passages.
Isaiah 53:3  He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Luke 9:22  Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Fulfilled,  
Matthew 26:67  Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
Again,
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Fulfilled, Luke 23:9  Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing. AND   Mark 15:5  But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marveled.
Again,
Isa 53:12  Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Fulfilled,
Mark 15:27  And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
Mar 15:28  And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

Then Psalm 22 and Jesus crucifixion
Psalm 22v1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:7  All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8  He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Fulfilled
Matthew 27:39  And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
Mat 27:43  He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Mark 15:24  And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

2. Jesus prophesied this
Matthew 24:1  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus actually described the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in detail and clarity. History attests to the fact that this happened about 70years after Jesus' death i.e 70AD. The Roman soldiers led by general Titus actually made sure that there was no stone left on top of the other in this magnificient building that took more than 40years to build.

3. Matthew 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdo[/b]m: and there shall be [b]famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
today, these are common occurences, actually they still make news headlines. But 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, no one could see it as a probable thing around the world.

4.  Matthew 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
At this time, the disciples didn't even know that they'll have to still take the gospel outside the nation of Israel,. they'd never been harrassed or arrested, not to talk of killed.

5. 2Timothy 3:13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
It's happening even here on nairaland. Evil is not been suppressed in the world. Deceivers are all over the place, some claiming to be christians, some not.

6. Daniel 2:39  And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40  And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43  And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Here's the prophecy of Daniel to king Nebuchadrezzar (representative of the Babylon empire). History says that after the Babylon empire came the Mede-Persian empire which was not as strong as the Babylon empire. then after it came the Greek empire which is the "third kingdom of brass". After this kingdom/empire came the Roman empire, which is  "the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron". After the Roman empire broke up, there's not been a single unit world power but divided amongst nations. this is the state in which the world will remain until Jesus comes again. Jesus is the One coming with the kingdom that will never be destroyed, that will stand forever.

7.  Dan 5:26  This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
Dan 5:27  TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
Dan 5:28  PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.
Dan 5:30  In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
Dan 5:31  And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

This is a prophecy to the last king of the Babylon empire. It was fulfilled that same night, and Darius of Mede took the kingdom.

I've already addressed the other issues you raised above in my previous posts.

Those were other reasons to believe the Bible apart from its indisputable popularity.
A.  It's insight into human nature is unparalleled as compared to any book before it or  even after.
B, It's uncountable number of different translations in so many other languages, not to mention the English language translations. Any other book like that please?
C. Its continual freshness. People read and read and continue to read all through a life time, and there's still always something special. There's no man authored book like that please.
D. Its inspiration and changing effect on human life regardless of status.I've seen the effect of just one verse countless times. It can actually break all defence and lead to a decision making to serve God.

I don't get why you're referring to verbs as contradictions do verbs have opposites?

i should be asking you. God did this(or told people to do this) in the OT, and in the NT He does that(or told people to do that). So, do verbs have opposite?
You'd call this contradiction too?
Matthew 16:20  Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

My calling them myths is not from a position of ignorance but from one of knowledge.

What knowledge? that it didn't happen in your front? and that's the condescension again?

I'll give you three in each.

From the first one:
1. Mary and Joseph were not engaged when Mary was pregnant.
2. Jesus was born in a cave not a manger.
3. Jesus was not taken to Egypt to flee the murder of babies under two by Herod but was placed in an ox stall. While John(the baptist) was placed in an opening created by an earthquake to avoid murder.

From the second:
1. Jesus wanted to keep something hidden from some other disciples not to talk about the rest of the world 2000 years later.
2. The head of prophesy was cut off with John the baptist. What does this imply? No more prophesies.
3. Jesus ascended in secrecy.

When i said significant truths, i meant the words 'significant' and 'truth'. i didn't say "spot the difference" OR "other ideas" or "significant events"
Like for you, you mentioned that the earth been older than 10000years, or stars been bigger than the earth are significant truths. How does that affect the common man, not to mention the common christian. While what you've said may be true, its not significant to the majority, maybe it becomes so in an exam or in science class. Significant truths are issues that are genuine [/b]and that [b]affect humanity, our salvation, our eternity, our life. Who cares if "Mary and Joseph were not engaged when Mary was pregnant" or that "Jesus was born in a cave not a manger", or that Jesus went to Egypt or Ethiopia when He was months old. It doesn't change the fact that He was born of virgin birth, or that He's the Saviour of the world and the Son and lamb of God. How does it matter to anyone that Mary was dancing in the temple as a superstar to the isrealis at 3years, or that she could stand at 6months old and walk seven steps to whoever and what nots? Asides whether the book is true or false, it adds nothing. it barely speaks of Jesus, the constant theme of the Bible. There's nothing to inspire or bring faith or save or heal or anything bible does.
And then the other book is just plain error, it's definitely not scripture.

2Corinthians 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Any doctrine or teaching contrary to the Bible is from a false prophet and cannot be regarded. It's so marked different from the whole of scripture from beginning to end. Let me quote some of it here to show how ridiculous it is even to the casual reader.
This is some James writing about his discuss with a fake peter and a demon calling himself jesus

you asked me to send you a secret book which was revealed to me and Peter by the Lord
this which the Savior did not desire to recount to all of us, his twelve disciples. blessed are those who will be saved through faith in this discourse.
five hundred and fifty days after he arose from the dead, we said to him: "Have you gone and departed from us?"
Jesus is supposedly saying "Truly I say to you, no one ever will enter the Kingdom of Heaven if I bid him, but rather because you yourselves are full"
Then he says(Among other things) to this two clowns " be ashamed! Woe to those who have seen the Son of Man! Yours is life "(he seems quite confused here, that's what demons do to people under their influence, they mess them up bad like mad men). Then he continues
"Woe to those who have rested from their illness, because they will relapse again into illness! Blessed are those who have not been ill" (Obviously, a mock beatitudes)
"Therefore I say to you, become full and leave no place within you empty, since the Coming One is able to mock you."
"Become better than I" . "The Lord answered and said: "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
And I said: "Lord, it is not possible to remove the head of prophecy, is it?"
"Be zealous to be saved without being urged. Rather, be ready on your own and, if possible, go before me."(It's so ludicrous, i'm laughing?)
"Let not the Kingdom of Heaven wither away."why do you all restrain me when I am eager to go?"
"O you wretched! O you unfortunates! O you dissemblers of the truth! O you falsifiers of knowledge! O you sinners against the spirit!"(jesus is supposedly addressing james and peter?)
"And now, then, be ashamed on account of them. I do not desire to remain with you any longer - just as you yourselves have not desired. Now, then, follow me quickly." Yours is life! Rejoice and be glad as children of God." "Woe to you who are in need of grace! Blessed are those who have spoken freely and have produced grace for themselves."

i'll stop here, any sincere person gets the idea

You are making another claim and generalization that I do not think is necessary here unless you can clearly demonstrate how I implied that anyone I was discussing with was ignorant and deluded.

I've sort of answered this, but let me add that this is what i said. "It's the way most atheists view believers.". In this case, i wasn't specific of you though you've accused millions of christians of ignorance, i've been fair.

Those things are also seen in the Qur'an do you believe it too?

Come again? The purpose of life man and God as found in scriptures, eternal life, Jesus the Christ and Saviour of the world, peace, a clear perspective of things, hope, love? You mean you actually see these things in the quran? now you're seeing things that are not seen, lol.
It's a very occupied weekend for me, i'll be back pls

@thehomer

I hope you realize that you are implying that God has changed. He used to enjoy killing other tribes but now does not. He used to enjoy killing people for disobedience but now he does not.

No God hasn't changed in the sense that you portrayed. Like i said, God's relationship with man is progressive not static. Like the child analogy that i used, the parents had to spank the kid but now that the kid is old, he's not spanked again. he's now more mature and empowered to act right. It's not exactly that the parents changed, because if they were to have another kid today, he'll still undergo the same training, but the senior kid is already grown to a level. A wrong perspective will say the parent behaviour to the two kids is partial or inconsistent, but a right perspective will understand. In God's realm, there's something more than death, you seem to assume that death is the ultimate. People still die today, even more i suppose, and it's ignorance of scriptures to continually say that some other tribes were killed as if the Israelites lived forever.

I'm not talking about God punishing the Israelites but God punishing other tribes. i.e it would be like enabling your child to go about killing other children who they are competing with in school for academic excellence.

God owns the earth and its inhabitants. if you believe that God punished some other nation/tribe because the Bible said so, why do you neglect and disbelieve the parts of scriptures that also say God punished the Israelites or the reasons why God punished anybody (Israeli or non-israeli). God can use any instrument He pleases to use to mete out judgement. He used some nations to punish Israel when they sinned, no? And He used Israel to punish some others. He may use nature or sickness or devil or angel, He's God not man. He's the unlimited right Judge.

Sorry but a book asking me to believe it because it is written in the book is not a good enough reason for me to believe whatever is written in the book.

But if it said not to believe in it, you'll take the words more serious se? That's just one reason out of the numerous i gave btw. It's a matter of trust ithink maybe. It's like if i said my name is Image123, you may take it so, you may want to see my birth certificate or ask around or see my id and all that. i hope u don't go through all that trouble for your friendships? Or it's like your parents told you that you were born at so so place on dayX. The majority won't go about hiring a detective to find out how true or doing DNA tests and co.

Again, you say faith is evidence and at the same time more than evidence which is it? What does it even mean for something to be more than evidence?

Faith is the evidence of things not seen (Hebrew 11v1). Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You take evidence to be limited to something we can see, something physical. But there's a realm apart from and above the physical realm. Faith is the evidence of that realm. It is more than evidence in that it is more than/above physical evidence.

Can you please demonstrate how I'm being condescending with my quotes in context?

1. Like when you tell cultey that "One thing you need to understand is that once thinking beings are involved". It implies that you're looking down at or acting superior to his God, like his God doesn't think or doesn't think intelligently.
2. Like when you say in post 34 page 2 that "the idea of hell is borne out of[b] ignorance[/b]", or that one is "forced to bow or scrape in heaven unlike hell". That's condescending.

It's interesting that you've brought the courts into this discussion because I'm sure that you're aware that a person simply claiming that he is guilty is not guilty is not enough to release him. Whether or not he is convicted depends on evidence but I don't think legal evidence is the same as historical evidence.

It's not enough but it's the major reason why the judge has not sentenced him and dismissed his case.

Sorry o mr homer, i've been occupied

Do you agree that humane punishments are preferable to inhumane ones?

I told you already, choices are relative, preferences are diverse, what i call inhumane may be humane for some and vice versa.

Your example is not a punishment but a person's stated desire (apart from the fact that we recognize such statements as being metaphorical and not literal)

But she views the option of marriage to person A as punishment. people actually/literally commit suicide for various reasons. Some will rather disappear than rebuild, some the other way round.

Your statement about God not being human is why I pointed out that once you are dealing with intelligent beings, making arbitrary decisions is not acceptable.

We're not in the house of commons here, sorry. We're referring to the Creator. He is greater than and most intelligent than humans. When you produce another sun, get back to me on intelligence.

The very fact that he ever did makes him an entity that is not benevolent

He's the lawgiver and lifegiver. He can take and He can give as He pleases. It's similar to a man who owns a poultry. he can sell all the animals, he can kill all, he can spare some for one purpose of his or the other. maybe he may seem unfair in the mind of the chickens, maybe not. But he owns them, not tto talk of God who not only owns humanity and the earth, but also bought us, and most importantly created us.

Keep in mind that according to the Bible, he does not chance i.e he is unrepentant and may just decide to do so again. After all, he won't ask you for permission now will he?

There you go twisting God's words. When the bible says he does not change, it is as a measure of His competence, the trust and reliance that we can put on Him that He does not fail. It's never a show of stubbornness or cruelty if you truly read it in context instead of trying to catch Him in His words.
Malachi 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
i'll get back later, i have to go to church.

@Joagbaje
'Remember James has issues with his choice of words'. You don come again. Have you forgotten you're the most religious poster of the year, and that YOU(according to you, your friend) voted you as well? i assume you're the carnal hypocrite having issues with your choice of ids?

i see the lager way. lager doesn't like parambulating but he seems to like hypocrisy. You can clearly see the 'God created man in His image' part, but you're waiting for who'll point out the 'fall of man into the sin nature' part. Enjoy your hypocrisy.

@thehomer
The Bible doesn't contain any wrong opinion on any textbook. Maybe its the textbook that contains a wrong opinion, it usuall depends on which textbook and what edition one is reading, no?
i've not said that some books outside the Bible contain or do not contain significant truths. Why do you not understand my speech said Jesus. I said there's no significant truth in any book, that claims to be from God, that's not in the Bible. Pls, i've saved the pages of those two links just for you. I'll read them later. But you, please mention one significant truth in each. Thank you.

The Bible is truth and unchanging. It doesn't contain any contradiction or 'wrong opinion'. Except you call 'sit' and 'stand' contradictions. The same person that sits can also stand, even run. That's not a contradiction, there's time for everything. The Bible truly records wonders and supernatural stuff, call them myths at your own ignorance.

There are numerous fulfilled prophecies in the Bible, how many do you want? I gave reasonS, not just a reason for the Bible to be believed and why it's superior to other books. i won't throw away the FACT that it's the most popular book in the world, despite all opposition. How many best sellers fifty years ago are still best sellers today, not to mention books written 200yrs ago only found in the museum. Also said that it is above all other books
given it's insight into human nature, translations, it's
continual freshness, it's
inspiration and changing effect on human life
regardless of status.
What history of the Bible did not pass human frailty? The point is that despite all the fire, violence, intrigue and politics, the Bible still came out victorious and as God would have it. God's will ultimately prevailed over the 'trying time'. God's words cannot pass away, there's nothing any man can do about it.

you didn't say people who believe in God are unintelligent and co, but it seems you implied it. That's why cultey's asking "who are higher beings" which you've replied btw. It's the way most atheists view believers. With an air of 'this people are ignorant and deluded, they need to come to london, or read so and so book'. You asked why one should believe God/the Bible, and amongst other reasons, i said people around you, as intelligent perhaps more, believe it. That's a point for you to consider it as serious.
Now to this

The question is not what people you don't know have seen but what have you seen or understood that made you decide?

This is a 'circular fallacy', lol. You don't know me, you know those people i mentioned. BTW, i told you what i've seen that made me decide to believe the Bible. The purpose of life man and God, eternal life, Jesus, peace, a clear perspective of things, hope, love etc. I see these in scriptures.

@thehomer
You can believe the Bible because it says so, that's one reason in the reasons i gave btw. If the Bible said 'don't believe in God, God didn't write the Bible'. Would that be of any consequence to you or would it remain 'circular'?
It's like someone in court who said he's innocent, you say that's circular/irrelevant. What if the person pleads guilty, would it be rectangular now or what?
Faith is the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN. i thought you'll see that in the passage i quoted. You didn't bother to read it ko? There's the condescending attitude again. You only think you know the Bible or God, trust me you don't.
Faith is the evidence for what we don't or haven't seen. It's greater than evidence because 'evidence' in your context refers to something physical/tangible. But faith evidence refers to something higher, the invisible, the above natural, the spiritual.

Yep, the Bible in full does not consider anything to be punishable by death. We live in the period of grace. When Jesus came, He brought grace for mankind. This means instead of instant judgement, you have another opportunity to do things right, to repent. It's not that God now condone your sin, but He now gives another chance and another.
Mankind is in a relationship with God. And it's a growing relationship. Like i said earlier, its in classes or stages. The Bible says in Galatians that in the OT we were young, under a school teacher. But in the new testament the relationship has advanced. For e.g There's a time when children cry and are forced to school, there's an advance when the child goes of his accord with some monitoring by the parent, there's an advance when the child graduates and is in more mature relationship with the parent.