₦airaland Forum

@frosbel
Good and timely message, thanks.

@OP
Don't mind all them atheists jare, life goes on. And thank God for eternal life He's given us which is undeniable. We tried to warn you though. Always listen to God's Word to guide you, not just spirit and dreams. The Word is a more SURE Word of prophecy forever.
Meanwhile do not allow devil and his boys to make you doubt your salvation, two wrongs don't make a right. That a child fails a test doesn't mean he was never in class. Never never mind, we're still in the same school, the school of faith.

@pic
In everything give thanks na, ko?

i believe the 'daddy mummy' thing is a cultural thing. Nigerians or maybe africans view it as respect. i don't think you'd hear them calling the pope or some popular white preacher 'papa' or mama. But whatever we do, let's make sure Christ is glorified. And let's abstain from flattery and the love for titles. Let's not turn respect into worship or a thing to be coveted.
They don't call some people 'daddy' but they can almost get an epileptic fit when they're not addressed with titles like prof, Dr, bishop, pastor, aunty, prophet, even bro/sis. It's a thing that lies more on the mind/heart of the recipient.

@frosbel

How does the Bible describe the Lord's return? Is it an event that only Christians observe or is it a spectacle that the entire world will witness? There are many of those who would state that Christ's return is a secret event; witnessed only be the believers while the non-believers are left wandering the earth.

Fros, you're missing out on the mystery of the 'rapture'. The point/truth is that the rapture is a phase(a very little phase at that) of Christ's second coming, that's why we  who believe in the rapture would not usually disagree with the second coming. The rapture is an event that takes a short time, actually the twinkle of an eye, compared to what we generally refer to as the second coming which would last for about a thousand years.

Here, the passage states that the "Son of Man (Jesus) comes in his glory, and all the angels with him." If you are able to visualize this in your mind, what do you see? Do you see an event that is quiet? Or do you see something more grandure? In the latter half of the passage, you've read that the Son of Man separates the sheep from the goats (sheep being the believers; goats being the unbelievers). If this event is a secret, made only known to the believers, then how does it make since that the goats (unbelievers) are also gathered and then separated out? Surely they too would know that something is going on.

If one is to study the Word in it's entirety, you'd notice that Christ is not only coming with His angels but also with His saints. This was a mystery even to the apostles as at the time Jesus was here, but later on in the epistles, they showed us this mystery, and it is that the saints are also coming with Jesus.
1Thessalonians 3:13  To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints.
Jude 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jesus 'comes' for His saints briefly during the rapture, but He comes with His saints in the second coming. Many would know of the rapture after it has occurred, but all will see Jesus when He comes to earth(He's going to be here for a long while anyway).

Acts 1: 10-11

And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

How did those who were standing on the mount see Jesus leave? If you read a little before this verse, you will discover that there were individuals in the crowd who still did not believe in Jesus. But these same individuals also witnessed Jesus leave and go up into heaven. The angels declared that he would return in the same manner he left, which was physical. He will return, physically, and just like both the believers and non-believers saw him leave, could it be that both the believers and non-believers will see him return?

The teaching of the rapture is that Jesus would be in the air during the rapture, and the saints would be caught up to meet Him in the air. But in the second coming, Jesus would not 'hang in the air', He would touch down on the earth and would be around for a long while reigning and ruling.
1Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Corinthians 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The second coming was never a mystery, it's all over the pages of the old testament. If anything, it was the first coming that was a mystery. The Jews did not expect that format and still do not believe it.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him hose who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is a popular passage used in talking about the Lord's return. What image do you paint when you read this? Is there anything here that says that something along the lines of: "And when the Lord tip toes out of heaven and whispers the names of believers, 'Come on my children, let's get you out of here' the archangel will quietly play his muted trumpet"? Quite the opposite. There are many who state that only the believers witness this event and only the believers will hear the trumpet blast. But where do we read that? There is not one verse or statement that says anything about only Christians hearing the trumpet and only Christians seeing Christ step down out of heaven. Remember, we have to draw from scripture, not make it say something that is not there.

I don't know how many people would hear the rapture trumpet, but i know that only the saints would be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At the rapture, there would be notable disappearances, but at the second coming we would all be here to reign with Jesus, not disappear. The angels in Acts said Jesus would come to earth the same way He left. In the rapture, He would be in the air not on earth.
Luke 17:34  I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35  Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36  Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
There'd be no missing acts when Jesus comes ON EARTH to reign(what we call the second coming). Where would you be disappearing to then. the disappearance is during the rapture when we'd go to Heaven and be with Christ, partake in the marriage supper of the Lamb, and then come back on earth to reign in the millennial reign.

2 Thessalonians 2: 1

Now concerning [b]the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our being gathered together to him[/b]

Please notice the 'AND' between the bolded. There are two different events often fused into one.

2 Thessalonians 1: 7-10

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Again, how does this often overlooked passage describe the Lord's return? Does Jesus reavealing himself from heaven with mighty anges and with flaming fire sound like a secret to you? Notice that the Lord takes vengeance on the that know not God, but at the same event, He comes "to be glorified in his saints."


In all the above passages that have been looked at, did you see anything that described Jesus coming back in secrecy? Quite the opposite. With descriptive words such as: all His glory, cry of command, voice of archangel, trumpet blast, flaming fire, etc, it is hard to believe that many in Christandom would believe that Jesus would come back secretly to snatch away the believers while the unbelievers are left to wonder what just happened.

Actually, what has been overlooked is the fact that the saints would not partake in the tribulation
2Thessalonians 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Thessalonians 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1Thessalonians 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
It's the Spirit of God that calls the rapture a mystery, not man. And i'd be stating the obvious that it's a mystery to you. While i should be quick to note that knowledge of mysteries doesn't save anyone or put any in God's kingdom, it doesn't make the mystery untrue. The rapture is a little phase of Christ's second coming. This is eschatological knowledge and anyone who has an above average understanding of the book of Revelation would not deny the rapture.

Also tell me where the rapture is mentioned in the bible.

Regards,

The word 'rapture' is not mentioned in the Bible, at least not in the A.V. But the meaning is there. It's English, it's a term describing the first phase of the second coming. the word 'trinity' is not mentioned in the Bible, but many of us know and agree with what trinity describes. Even the word 'Bible' is not mentioned in the Bible (i love the rhymes). We don't begin to argue endlessly that the Bible doesn't exist because it's not mentioned in the Bible. We don't find the term 'holy communion/eucharist' in the Scriptures but we observe this. We shouldn't get bogged down on words and the letter, and miss out on the life and what God's Spirit has to show us. There's only one place in scriptures that mention 'Lord's supper', and we all know what it means. many christians ignorantly even call it 'last supper', but what does it matter? It's would be childish(if not carnal) to begin to argue like since it's Lord's supper we should only eat it during supper or on Nisan 14, or that since that's the Lord's supper every other supper must be devil's or something. God wants us childlike, not childish.
2Timothy 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Regards.

But you had some miracles did you not? If you did, then I want my own miracles. It really is that simple.

This is what i'm replying to, i don't have the time for unserious set of people. There was no miracle before i gave my life to Christ, do i really have to say this in your mother-tongue?

@Tonye-t, Hi

Hi Image,

dont you think it appears rather appalling the way we christians live our lives with a defensive - defensive attitude.

What do you mean by defensive attitude or is it defensive-defensive attitude. You've asked a question, and i believe you expect answer right? By the way, the normal christian is supposed to defend more than attack, our weapons of warfare are more defense than attack inclined, i suppose because we have the victory already.

Christianity is a movement that allows us to reason and make thoughts with the spirit of God in us to guide our reasoning

The Spirit of God is supposed to be our reasoning actually, not just guide it. Christianity is not reason-centred, it is greater than reasoning, it is spiritual.

and not to live our lives based on what some pastor tells us about our Father.

And what if in this case i take you to be the 'some pastor' telling me something queer about our Father?

For instance, Image how would you feel that someone told u stories about your father till the day he died, whether it was true or false what was told you; you dont know. Yet your dad gives you the same if not a bigger access to commune with him one on one.

Besides, all i have quoted has been coming from the same bible that we both read.

It seems you've been quoting more scenarios than scripture. BTW, i'm yet to quote the koran either.

The thread is not to counter what i said but give me your reasons why you feel we are free-moral beings with your scriptures to back because i believe the contrary.

For another instance, i'll show from the example of Jesus our perfect example that we are free moral agents. Jesus was to be crucified according to the will of God, but He could actually have something different from God's will if he chose so.
Matthew 26:39  And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Matthew 26:44  And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

And to add, almost all your usage of the term "pleasure" in the passages you quoted are different in greek translations from the "pleasure" as used in Revelations. Check it out!

And what's the significance in this? The point i passed across was that men do not always do God's will(call it plan, pleasure, purpose, agenda). God is grieved with men, displeased with men, regrets creating men, weeps for men. You don't weep or get displeased with someone who'se doing what you planned he should do.

Case study:

(GWT) John 9

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but so that God could show what he can do on him  [/b].



Now pls lets try and understand the aforelisted passages closely

Someone was born a male and was expected to be like everyother child was, but in this case he was born blind, inotherwords, will i be speaking herey if i said that "he was procreated and destined to be a blind vessel". ?. This tells you that if he had the chance to make a choice like a free-moral being as you think, then he sure would have chosen to come with sights from birth, but no he simply couldnt! WHY? because His creator (owner) destined him to come that way (blind).

The question is why would his creator destine him to come out blind? The answer was still provided in the same passage - "so that God could show what he can do on him"

And at a certain time, the script provided that Jesus should pass by and open his eyes. 

And yet someone says we aint puppets in God's hands?

All these boil down to understanding God's philosophy of 'all join'. Everything works together for good. Like yorubas say "aye o pare?" Some will say 'if life brings you lemon instead of oranges, make lemonade". It's a vital principle every believer should learn i.e Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
It means nothing takes God to confusion, or by surprise. God is willing to show what He can do on any man, whether he be blind or can see. If one surrenders to God, He'll be glorified. If one hardens himself, God'll still be glorified, it's a win-win for Him. That's what makes it wise that we are on His side.
God wanted to use the Israelites that left  Egypt, God wanted to use Eli's house, God wanted to use Saul. He couldn't but He chose others and He was still glorified, those people lost out.

Numbers 14:30  Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I swore to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
1Samuel 2:30  Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

1Sa 13:13  And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever.
1Sa 13:14  But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

Matthew 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

@Idehn and thehomer
Birds of the same feather

You are being disingenuous with your translation. You do not like the negative(and well deserved) connotations of slavery, and so you are opting to use a servant instead. That is also why you are trying so hard to equivocate voluntary labor with forced labor. As if the distinguishing factor between a servant and slave are shackles and a pen. That is like equivocating violation with love making because the victim was not bound up. The distinguishing factor between a servant and slave(in English) is volition.  Did you not read the first sentence on the wiki page that defines slavery?

It's not my translation, it's the A.V/KJV. I didn't translate it. 900 to 5 is not a small difference. i've not tried to equivocate 'voluntary labour' to forced labour. It's thehomer that comes like "God is so mean he permits sale of human beings". Then i show him that we still sell humans for entertainment. Then he comes with "God is so immoral He allows humans to be inherited", and i say "oh we do this everytime in business or there'd be mass unemployment and job insecurity". Now he's on with forced labour and i'm showing you both that it's done in the military, secondary schools etc. i've been saying the concept is not the major issue but the relationship. There are husband and wife that live worse than some master and slave. Life is not a linear equation, it's a little more than that. A slave has a combination of a lot of burden on him. All these combo do not apply to what is described in the Bible. You think the distinguishing factor between servant and slave is volition? That's a shocker, really. Who wants to be a servant, how does volition apply here? Unfortunately, all you seemed to read and hole was the first sentence on the wiki page. It's actually a combination, not just the first line. that's why they didn't stop at the first line. HERE is the page again. Permit me to paste some sentences there below.

Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation.
The number of slaves today remains as high as 12 million to 27 million
The earliest records of slavery can be traced to the Code of Hammurabi (ca. 1760 BC), for example Hammurabi's Code of Laws stated that death was prescribed for anyone who helped a slave to escape. as well as for anyone who sheltered a fugitive.
slaves used not only for labour, but also for amusement (e.g. gladiators and sex slaves).
By the late Republican era, slavery had become a vital economic pillar in the wealth of Rome, as well as a very significant part of Roman society
Author Charles Rappleye argued that "In the West Indies in particular, but also in North and South America, slavery was the engine that drove the mercantile empires of Europe, It appeared, in the eighteenth century, as universal and immutable as human nature".
Current situation
Slavery still exists, although in theory it has now been outlawed in all countries.

And if you read through you'd see the pitiable condition of slaves and how it was big business all over the world. For instance, talking of some part of Africa it says 'that for every slave who arrived at a market three or four died on the way'. It was worse in some other parts. The Bible relationship described isn't this deplorable. In most cases, it was the opposite. The servants in the Bible were well catered for by their owners. They were even so close that they could marry (c Exodus 21v7-9). They were trained and cared for like in the case of Abraham and his servants. While it was normal for Hammurabi's Code of Laws to prescribe death for anyone who helped a slave to escape. as well as for anyone who sheltered a fugitive, it was the opposite in the Bible.
Deuteronomy 23:15  Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:
Deu 23:16  He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.
This is almost too good to be true but you've overlooked it. A master couldn't afford to maltreat his servant. If he beat him to the point of injury, the servant was free to go (take note that anybody could be beaten at that time, not only servants).
Exo 21:26  And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
Exo 21:27  And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
These doesn't obtain in what we all know to be slavery. Servants, strangers, widows and the poor had to be taken care of as a matter of law. In other places, slaves were used for business and as economic pillar, in Israel they had a fixed price, and that fixed price was 30pieces of silver. It's so low you can't use it to make gains. You dn't buy 28 and sell 33. It was to discourage sale. And you don't buy anyhow you like because you'd be responsible for the welfare i.e feeding, clothing, health, children, management, housing etc.

The page then goes on to list what attributes slaves can have not attributes they must have. The vile abomination that is slavery in the Bible is painfully clear. What makes what occurs in the Bible slavery is that they are forced to tolerate/accept these things(among others):

There you go again, what's with atheists and sentiments? Who made you a judge of 'can haves' and 'must haves'. If the servants in the Bible were a vile abomination, why do we see Abraham's servant as head of all that he had? Why is this servant choosing a wife for Abraham's son? Why is Abraham asking that his servants be 'paid' by the king of Sodom? Why is Joshua-Moses' servant made the leader of a nation, why is Elisha-Elijah's servant given double of what his master had? Why is Boaz's servant head of a group of workers, among which Boaz married? Why does Solomon make Jeroboam his servant to be a ruler, who became so powerful he later became king? And so on and on. these are the practically examples we see in the Bible, not taking a verse and building castles around it. the Bible is the whole of 66books taken together for good understanding, not picking and choosing as is your wont and that of false preachers.

Slaves can be beaten to death without consequence if they die after a day has passed.

Can you sincerely answer as to what happened if the servant beaten died the same day? What was set in the law are boundaries and limits as to treatment of servants. Servants existed and would continue to exist. It's in the human nature. God didn't make us that way though, we did. Man fell from the position god placed him and tends towards such wickedness and oppression. It's these that Jesus came to save us from. What the old testament did was to put limits in place that man could achieve. When Jesus came, He gave power  and lifted us up to the ability to do things better. We're still on earth and still see imperfections in different aspects. We are not in heaven or in a state of utopia. God's word is the remedy to our deplorable state. It is the manual for our life to function the right/best way. It tells us the truth about things and about us, it's not a politically correct liar, dancing/playing to the gallery. There are worse conditions than what you servanthood today. Some people are slaves to sin, some are slaves to alcohol, some are limited by sickness. All these things are what Jesus has come to make us free from. Some people are making money but don't have peace of mind and cannot afford to quit their job(s). Some wake so early in the morning and return home exhausted so late at night, they call themselves cute names still. They don't have the freedom to go to work by 10am or leave by 2pm, and they dare not resign for fear of whatever. Some people have been tied to an hospital bed for the past 3months by sickness and their condition is not getting better. Some people have to roam the streets and run up and down the highway selling something to make ends meet for themselves and their own. All these and more are the reality of the world we live in. the world is out of course, it's not what was the initial plan. but God has redemption in mind. When Jesus comes, everything would be perfect again, and then we will live with Him forever. then there'll be no more sorrow, crying or death, no more sickness. But only those that receive Jesus can experience these beauty for eternity. Except a man be born again, He cannot see God's kingdom. But we can all choose to see God's kingdom and even bring God's kingdom to our world and relationships. It's takes a step of faith. One step at a time, and we'll reach it.

@thehomer

In other words, you think you know more than these other people on this issue?

By the grace of God, on the issue of the world ending on May 21st which coincidentally is today, i'll say i know more on this issue than them. it's in the Bible that no one knows the day, but they make a calculation from Genesis 6 i think and say today is 7days from Genesis 6, that's an error. I do not condemn them, they are still christians if they have truly believed on Jesus and are saved from sin. What they lacked was proper understanding of God's Word which is clear enough on this issue. How do you decide on who is right, the Word of God is right, not man.
Psalm 18:30  As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple
God is the one that we trust, and turn our eyes on, not man. Man can fail, he's limited one way or the other. In school, you may have a student in class who fails a subject, it doesn't make him no more a student and the blame is not on the textbook.

The phrase "scientific theory" has a meaning that can be quite different or may be the opposite of what is meant by the common English usage of the word "theory".

So english language usage is common mresoteric, but you want the common usage when we are discussing 'faith' na, so a scientific theory is  type of theory, yes or no?

So God made humans, intelligent humans to be his slaves? When he was doing this, did he know that some will not know this? Or did he not know that some will refuse to be slaves to anything else?

God made humans intelligent in the first instance i.e intelligent when compared with other living things like animals and plants ofcourse. How did you miss the part that says God created us to have dominion and glorify Him? You picked on pleasing and serving God. Pleasing and serving doesn't translate to slavery. On the bolded, simulations are not always the same as real life, and man was not just like the other creations, he was created with a will of his own.

Of course. I wonder who the father of he ellipse is. For some reason, you refuse to accept that circles are flat and that there are no pillars holding up any part of the earth.

The earth's orbit is an ellipse, is this ellipse round or flat shaped? It depends on where you are standing, if you are standing on the big 'circle' you may think or rightly say flat. But if you were far away like as far as the earth is to the moon or the sun, you'd describe the shape as round or circle if you were addressing more than six billion people. The pillars of the earth i've told you, are pictorial language/metaphor to describe that there is something holding the earth or keeping it in place, from roaming off to another orbit or galaxy or system. there's something made by God that keeps it tilted at a certain angle/range and moving a particular direction and speed. Science have found other names for that now, but it's the same thing nonetheless.

Go back and read the Wiktionary quote. You will note that faith does not count as evidence in the definition. Well those scriptures have been known to be wrong.

This is a precious waste of nl space. Who says those scriptures are wrong, the federal board of atheist party?

No. I saw it that was why I pointed out to you that I had already said what you were repeating. Simply go through my posts.

Remember this? What you saw was that 'Science doesn't do proofs because it relies on evidence. You get proofs in mathematics and logic. Science is much broader than that.' But all glory be to God, it seems you now see that maths is an integral science, and actually used to solve so many scientific problems. Anyway, whatever you say next on this you're right okay, YOU ARE RIGHT. Let's cut the irrelevancies.

How does that negate what I said? If someone is deluded, does that person not think their delusion is true?

The deluded thinks it's true, but it doesn't rule out the fact that there is a true group that has found the word of God to be divine and true.

I don't want to look at a single criterion. This is why I asked you to present what you think is the best criterion.

that's why i never presented you with a single criterion, i gave you criteria why i see the Word of God as divine. You may scroll back to the beginnings of our discussions on this thread.

No that's not it. It is simply pragmatism based on what I've seen so far.

Have some faith, atleast you do when it comes to star formation.

I simply paraphrased what you said which is what you repeated. What I understand from it is that you're able to interpret the scriptures and decide whether or not a person's actions were right or wrong. This means you should be able to tell Adeboye and others what they're doing wrong.

That's a very poor paraphrase then. Anyone who is born again has the ability to interpret scripture and decide whether a person's actions were right or wrong. This of course is based on the scriptures.

A nice circular argument. Please tell me, was there a scripture before those books were voted out? Also, those books have not passed away as I showed you.

If you mean to ask if there were scriptures before the council of nicea and co, yes there was scriptures. If those books have not passed away, they'd be in my Bible. You can't sieve out Genesis or vote out Leviticus, not you not pdp not the UN not the internet, no one or council.

It's not a threat. It's a fact that people are not allowed to own and treat others the way it is described in the Bible. How could God have made such a moral error?

If you know anything about slavery, you'd know that the Biblical relationship of a servant and master is actually love when compared with what obtained in heathen nations around, the world over. When God sent Jesus to die and make heathen and Jews one and gave no more room for what obtained in Lev 25, it took the world more than 1500 years after to abolish slavery and they are still at it till date. You're late, God never made an error. Man always has to blame God for his inadequacies. God made man to have dominion over animals and co, Adam fell from this glorious position. From the beginning it was not so, it's man's wicked imaginations that brought slavery, God actually limited slavery until He sent His Son Jesus who brought the grace and the power to man to live a 'civilised' life.

Again, you show embarrassing ignorance of your scripture. Simply read it and you will see the reference to eternal life. Though your analogy is simple, it is a false one because he had to be alive to eat while he could be alive and not have knowledge of good and evil which is what that story was saying.

You're only believing what you want to believe. You should have known from that simple analogy that 'the tree of life' and 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' refer to something different from the common usage of the words 'life' and 'knowledge of good and evil'. So he had to be alive to eat/before eating the tree of life but couldn't have knowledge to eat/before eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil ba? double standards, insincerity.

And here, you try to shift the burden of proof on you. I have shown you the extent of his kingdom which would also give you an idea of what he ruled over. You are claiming that the extent was more than that therefore, you need to show that the extent was really more than described.

i've shown you and will re-show you what i believe.
Daniel 2:38  And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
You have glibly insisted that it is wheresoever the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven dwell. i told you that the world known to Nebuchadnezzar was ruled by him. But you said he didn't know so and so places. you're the one to show proof that he didn't know or rule such a place. And then the prophecy fell right in place remember?

Counting words of translations is not important because what is being discussed has been outlined which is the God sanctioned way of treating other people as slaves. Though I know that many pastors try to use that to show the importance of some concepts. I wonder what they'll get by counting the occurrence of the words "The", "Lord", "is", "Died".

And what is being discussed doesn't qualify as slavery. Stop wondering about pastors, you're still having issues thinking my thoughts for me, don't add more to our burden. Stop being so heavy laden, Jesus wants to give you rest. When the word slave(s) appears less than 5 times, and the word servant(s) appears over 900 times in a book, it's not unimportant especially when you insist on replacing the word 'servant' with 'slave' every single time. Get sincere and serious please.

Effort? I thought he gave you a performance of a miracle. That is all I and many other ask. He knows what it'll take for us to believe. Let him do that.
Actually, God will lose everything. In fact, he seems to have lost most of humanity.
Also, please try leaving a line free for me to easily tell when one comment ends and the next begins.

A performance of a miracle? No. i didn't need a miracle to be saved, i simply believed and was saved.

Acts 16:30  And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

God has nothing to lose, you have all to lose. Look at it again here below'

Luke 13:2  And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:4  Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
The ball is in your court as it were, you too can be saved today.

@thehomer

Are footballers slaves? Are UBA workers slaves? Do you think they get paid? Do you think they're able to resign and go somewhere else? I really wonder how you're able to confuse slavery for labour. Or do you not know what slavery is?

You were the one making an issue of humans been bought and sold and of others inheriting humans, until i showed you that these concepts are still in common practice. Slavery is not all about getting paid or not. There you go again with another concept, slavery is not a linear equation and life is not either. there are different factors involved, that's why i told you of what slavery implies/denotes and i even referred you to your fav wiki.

No you need the right perspective. You need to realize that once God starts commanding people to kill other people, he is an accomplice to murder.

This is a poor and biased perspective. When you command, you're held responsible for your actions. It is as if you carried them. Like when we talk of Hitler killing Jews, or Gaddaffi or Abacha. Or when we talk of what the Federal Government has done/built, we say Goodluck Jonathan or Obasanjo or Fashola or IBB did this and that. But now it's God's turn and He's accomplice.

It seems you're getting confused. Do you think what you said in the preceding paragraph is what happens in UBA or other companies? Also, keep in mind what was said about how one is guilty of killing a slave in the Bible.

i never said or thought UBA workers or other company workers are slaves in the sense you mean, what i've shown you is that they(the workers) can be inherited by other masters, and that one can actually be slaving and carry the title of a manager(but you asked that i use your definition). Here is what was said about how one is guilty of killing a servant in the Bible.

Exo 21:12  He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Exo 21:20  And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Lev 24:17  And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.

God's standards always disgraces man's standards anyday, it would do you good to notice/find out what obtained in other nations outside Israel.

A majority? I'm talking about all humans. Where did I say that? And I've pointed out to you why the Bible is not good enough. If you think it is, then please tell me, will you kill your child for changing his religion to say Hinduism?

And i am talking about the Creator of all humans, Who is greater than all humans. Anybody can point out anything, a kid was pointing to me the other day and saying 'daddy daddy', and i'm not his daddy. i've also pointed out to you that the Bible is good enough so you pointing is invalid. And who killed his child for changing his religion to say hinduism in the Bible?

Are you saying he cannot command people to kill again? What are you actually saying here?

Not in the covenant in which we live, there is time for everything. His command for today is that you should repent and stop waiting for a sign like the Pharisees.
Acts 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Again, what do you mean by life? You're simply still inserting your God wherever you like.

What do i mean by life ke? What do you know as life? i'm talking about the life that all living things are said to possess that makes them living things. So what is the source of life? Now see this, John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Do notice that i didn't put Him there, He was there already.

I hope you now know better especially when you're speaking about scientific issues. Yes proof and evidence are different. Where did I say science was not physical?

i now know better when discussing such with thehomer. Simply trace back our discussion on the issue.

What Genesis blunder? And I notice that these numbers are far more than what is expected from the Bible.

Aaargh, you're not a kid na. Don't you remember when you mentioned that Genesis says the earth was formed 6000years ago or something on that line? Aaah you just noticed the numbers, i'm glad to educate you in the earth sciences, it's been a displeasure. And remember like i said, those numbers differ from imagination to imagination, textbook to textbook, and person to person.

And I hope you realize that what you're saying is different from what the people you're quoting are saying. What you've highlighting is not a biological concept but a cultural one. I also wonder why you keep saying "modern humans" as if it is a biological specie. And note that the people you're quoting say humans were present during the holocene not that they evolved then so it seems you're still unable to find someone to back up your claim.

, when i said this was irrelevant, some might have thought i was shying away or something. You were literarily 'pointing a gun at my head for names'. Now you're giving excuses. When i put the quotes on "modern humans evolved", you thought we were in biology class or i mentioned something about your biology teacher? keep noting ehn, it's good for your learning. Do you even understand the concept of evolving or evolution. na wa for you o, thehomer.

You are making yet another common mistake. A scientific theory does not become a law. They are both different. I'll also advice you to look up scientific laws to avoid this misconception. Actually, the law is called the universal law of gravitation while the theory of gravity is based on Einstein's theory of general relativity.
Actually, the electron, the theory of gravity and others are the basis of the solar events I've been talking about.
You still think that a person had to have seen stars form to know but you see, based on science and reasoning, we are able to tell what happened in the past and what is to be expected. This is how science works.
The beauty of science lies in the fact that if you're so inclined, you're free to gain the basic knowledge and make your informed deductions so while SS1 students may be able to some extent, they will need more training to be better at it.

Did i mention that scientific theories and laws are the same? i thought i was saying that they are not the same, there you go thinking for me again ba? i think the history was that it was 'newton's law of gravitation' until as usual with science, flaws were discovered, then with Einstein's help it became 'theory of gravitation. Well maybe i'd look that up sometime, science books and their inconsistencies sha.
Are you really saying that electrons and gravity are the things that make people to make wild hypotheses about how star A formed B billions years ago at a distance C from the earth and a diameter D which reduced or increased(depending on the sweetness of the mouth of the Prof speaking) Emillion years later and how this star A would die in Fmillion years time. The bolded part of your post above is what i've been saying about faith, are you thinking through me yet again? You're the one who lays emphasis on seeing before believing?

Mmmhmm. Just don't deny it when it fails to end as expected.

You know my stand on this thehomer, why are you such a slave to insincerity?

^duh
Satan used to be holy, he got the boot when he quit, sinners cannot live in Heaven except you repent.

thehomer, you sef wan go Heaven. Heaven is a holy place o, can you cope?

Eeiyah, the OP probably needs a friend's hug and a good cry? Plus a treat of kulikuli.

@OP
Think no further, you already answered your question. The words we call 'the words of Paul' are actually the words of Jesus.

@thehomer

Well the end is close. Just a few days away.

Very smart observation, really.

If no one has the best understanding, then people who claim using the Bible that the world will end on May 21st 2011 should not be criticized by Christians. This also means other Christians who are not in your particular sect may also be right so how did you decide on the sect to choose?

i told you that "Differences are caused by unequal knowledge or understanding, not faith. ". Our knowledge comes from the word of God. i may know what they don't know, and they may also know what i don't know. But there are general truths, and there are things that i know. One person cannot know everything, no one is omniscient except God. i might know a lot about landforms even have a degree, and not know much about the human anatomy. i don't know which of the two is better understanding even though they may both have Ph.Ds in their field. But what each knows they know, and there are general truths that we can agree to, and disagree as well. Truths like Jesus is Lord, Preach the gospel, men should pray, Jesus is coming, Love God and your neighbour etc. In specifics, disagreements may come in but this should not 'divide' us. This is different from when i say Jesus is Lord and you say He is not, that's fundamental.

There are several better online dictionaries that you can use for easy comparison. A scientific theory has a different meaning from a theory as used in common parlance.

A scientific theory is type of theory, yes or no?

It's pretty obvious from the Bible that God does not want us all to be united otherwise, why will he create Heaven and Hell?

Philippians 2:2 Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind
1Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
There are several admonitions to unity and partnership in scripture. How did you miss it, i've stated why God create hell on this thread.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There's the original plan. God created us all to have dominion, glorify Him, please Him and serve Him.

It's not me hoping, it's what is written in the Bible. Circles are flat, there are no pillars holding up parts of the earth etc. So there's no need to add your own misinterpretation especially after being corrected.

You behaving very unserious. A circle is round shaped, and is the 'mother/root' of everything connected with round, surround and around. It's today we can talk of X-dimensional, we've developed our math and shape names. In those days, there were no such distinctions.

No. You did not show any dictionary supporting your claim that faith is evidence. Why don't you do that?

Wiktionary was quoted? This is yet another irrelevant argument. Faith has been severally defined to you from the scriptures that preach it.

Too bad you didn't see it. You should read my posts more carefully.

I SAID "Maybe you said it, but didn't see it? " As in, maybe you said it, but maybe YOU didn't see it. Take your advice most carefully.

That's what those various groups think.

But you said "Some were lying, others claim this for monetary gains, yet others may simply wish to go with the crowd then there's the group that are simply deluded and many other groups for other poor reasons.". And you won't answer if you believe such group exist that found the Bible to be divine and inspired by God. Not everyone thinks so mr.

Is that the top criteria for a book being divine?

It's one of the criteria i listed from the beginning of the thread, so bring on thine comparisons?

Ok. But with the way things are going, I probably won't waste my time doing that.

Lazyyyyyyyyyyyy, you been on my neck about it all the while?

Hmmm. So you're the one who truly decides what actions are Christian or otherwise. That's interesting. I hope Adeboye and others come to you to ask for advice.

Is this a poor attempt to misconstrue what i said? i didn't say the above quote, i said we can talk about actions i.e based on the Bible ofcourse. But the heart is another matter. God see the inside motive of each action, i can only go as far as the action, and tell you using scriptures whether this is wrong or right on a general level.

I'm talking about the extra books of the Bible that were not added based on the decisions of some committees.

We've been through this. the fact that they were not added proves that they are not scripture. If they were scriptures, they'd not have passed away as it were.

Then go and read Leviticus 25 keeping in mind the definition of slave that I'm using.

Here's the Leviticus 25 passage that i believe you refer to,

Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begot in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen forever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.
i believe you wish to highlight the inheritance of servants. Well, the Bible is God's Word, not just two verses or a book. You should take this into cognizance in future 'study'. now, while i've shown you that the relationship is more important than the concept, the concept of maybe buying someone or inheriting someone are still practised in the world today. Even forcing of people to do things(people are forced in the military by their superiors, some parent force their ward to school, some people are forced to take something unpleasant, these all doesn't translate into the slavery you are bringing up) is still commonplace. But the relationship is most important, and sincerely the relationship found in scriptures between master and servant is not slavery. BTW, God went the step ahead before human civilization followed Him. no one can be bought in this Lev 25 fashion again because Christ has made us one.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Just as the children of Israel could not be treated as servant forever, even so the gentiles now have the same right. It's funny you threaten me of prison earlier. God declared freedom when civilization was still developing in slave trade, you're late.

Here your comparison falls apart because dead people do not eat unless you know of one that does. Eating the fruit of the tree was to grant eternal life but eating the other was to grant knowledge of good and evil.

Oh poor Adam, so you apply double standards for him. I wonder where your word 'eternal' dropped from. maybe we could also drop it in front of 'knowledge of good and evil'?
It's a very simple analogy. If Adam had life before without eating the tree of life, is it not possible he had knowledge of good and evil without eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Here, you simply wish to be absurd. Unless you can demonstrate that his empire reached the Americas and Australia, then I simply have to take it that you're being unserious.

You have soon forgotten that you are the one to demonstrate evidence that king Nebu didn't know of those places you mentioned, and didn't rule them. Very convenient ba?

It is interesting how people like counting the number of times certain words appear in certain translations of a Bible. Which definition do you wish to use? And which of those definitions meets the thought expressed in e.g Lev. 25:46?

Oh you feel bullied, i've been using the authorized version all this while, remember? On your question, maybe
A person working in the service of another (especially in the household)
In a subordinate position
The A.V saw and were aware of the words 'servant' and 'slave'. They knew and you should that the word slave would not be the right translation for the personality. 900 times no be coincidence brada, servant(s) appear over 900 times, slave is once or twice. You're obviously the one in error on this.

You're free to talk to your God and ask him to come to me and perform his miracle since he knows that I'm not a very gullible person. He should put some effort into it.

Really YOU should put in the effort, you have faith.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force
God has NOTHING to lose if you perished, you have all to lose. Be wise and repent.

Joagbaje:
Revelation 4:1
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And talking about coming up hither, our today's passage speaks on similar veins,
May 16 Luke 14v10


Luke 14:10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
We see in Today's passage a very important part for our lives. that important quality is humility. Jesus Christ was humble and His followers should also be humble. People love to arrogate positions to themselves. In the world, it is normal to blow your trumpet, but Christians are not supposed to be like everyone else.
This is what Jesus was saying in Today's passage, it's an enjoining to humility. In this sea of the world that we live, it's very difficult for a Christian to lift himself up. it's like stretching your legs and neck to the higher level. How long can you continue in that, and how far can you see with that? What you need to do is to let God do the lifting.
Let God do the lifting. He will carry you on His shoulders, on eagle's wings. humble yourself before the Lord and He will lift you up. Everyone wants to go higher, we all want to be lifted. Jesus has set the example, the way up is down. It's the way of humility. it is humility that necessitates and facilitates the COMMAND to go up higher. This is the secret to success and to heavenly blessings. And don't go yet, it is also an important secret for God's glory in our midst as saints. It is godly to be humble. If it is godly, it means that it is a thing that God would do.
Sometimes, God is in our midst but He's gone to sit somewhere in the lowest room. Please, remember to lift Him up. Tell Him "Lord, go up higher", for then He will have worship, and draw us to Himself. Well, now you know the indispensable quality. I pray it becomes not just knowledge but revelation, that it may profit you. Amen.

@thehomer

I've given you more than enough time on this topic but the sort of thinking you're displaying makes me shake my head in wonder.
If you really do not see anything wrong with owning people the way it is described in the Bible, then I simply have to advice you not to try that in the modern world because you will end up in prison when you're caught

it's unfortunate that you've failed to see what i'm saying. i've shown you that the concepts that you speak of are still in practice in different spheres in the world, and not many people are frowning at it. People are still being bought and sold, and workers are still being inherited. As you've seen, those concepts are not the main issues of life but the relationship shared despite the concepts. Footballers are bought and sold in the transfer market, not many people think too wrong of that. Workers are inherited, UBA bought some other bank during the 'consolidation' and inherited some of the workers (some considered themselves unfortunate not to be inherited in this event). If Dangote died yesterday, and willed his estate to you, you'd be inheriting a majority of his workers. This is the modern world, i'll speak more on this down this post.

And you go on to compare God's murder to humans eating animals is as usual a bad analogy especially when we understand that humans are quite different in terms of mental, moral and social capabilities from other animals.
It seems you really have a lot to learn on how to actually make moral judgements.

There you go again on the murder fallacy, its wrong to accuse God of murder just as ridiculous as accusing you of murdering your ducks. It's not strange you think highly of yourself and your kind, maybe its the same way chicken think of themselves. The analogy shows you that humans kill BILLIONS annually of what they cannot create without remorse. On the other hand, God created us and owns us, the earth and everything, and we are less than nothing before Him. It is His GRACE that makes us something, it's a rare privilege that He considers us, this is the Bible/truth. i guess the chickens may also feel that you need to learn how to make moral judgement, whatever that means. It's like when we are on ground and we see things so gigantic and beautifully splendid, until we're up high in an airplane and see everything as toys. You need the right perspective.

And here, you simply redefine slavery. I've already given you the definition I'm using. If you think it's acceptable to treat people that way, then I'll simply leave you to such bad moral thinking.

You're the one redefining slavery using scriptures, amazingly you do not permit that i define faith using scriptures. Check up your beloved wikipedia for description of slavery. It fully supports what i said earlier on slavery that it is a combo of being forced to work, no compensation, legality of owners to kill slaves, no escape, oppression(e.g forced sex slaves and gladiators), bad treatment and chains, slave pens.. All these factors are not combined in the biblical servant, actually some are the opposite way. The english translators of the A.V deemed it fit to describe the situation as 'servant' not 'slave' obviously because slavery would be a wrong hazy translation.

Morality is a human thing. It concerns all humans religious and non-religious alike. This I think is the core problem that you don't understand about your brand of immoral reasoning.

We been through this already?  You're appealing to a seeming majority which is a fallacy, isn't it? Morality is relative with humans, you consider it immoral to flog a man, while this is a normal law in some parts of the world. That's why we talked about standards and God's word being the standard and arbiter. So for what purpose are you 'moral'(been curious)?

I asked you a direct question and you're evading it. Why don't you actually answer the question? Saying God won't do it makes no sense unless you control God.

I can't be told to do so! What part of this sentence don't you understand exactly? You're generalising that God would do this because He did it before, and you're denying God's faithfulness to His covenant.
Numbers 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Psalm 89:34  My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
We live in a covenant of love and grace, whereein we are to bless even those who hate us, and love our enemies.

The animals that lived before humans evolved.

So you see God was there alright before me. So what is the source of the animals' life? [s]How exactly did animal life jump into human life? Oh sorry, evolution right, let's skip that for more serious issues, i think?[/s]

You need to realize that they do not all apply equally. This is why you need to be specific.

Good mrspecifico, but to layboys like us, 'proof' and 'evidence' are the same thing.

Simply look it up.

So we now 'know' where your esoteric views on common issues come from (proof is not evidence, science is not physical hmmmmm). Image123 learn to remember that when discussing with Mr. thehomer aight?

No it is not irrelevant because if you cannot give the names of these scientist, then you were lying when you made that statement and I really do not like having to converse with someone who when wrong will not admit it and allow us to move on.
Saying that eye-witness testimony is the only thing acceptable to you makes me wonder how it is that you think you survive in the modern world.
The fact is that the evolution of humans took millions of years and your attempted distinction "modern humans" is a false one unless you have the biological properties that distinguishes them from the humans that were present 12,000 years ago.

You've been v.lightly reprimanded for your 'Genesis blunder' so you're still sulking, ok ok i'll oblige you.Please i wish that we 'move on', forgive me for not allowing us to earlier.
Here's what i said ithink? Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved'.. It seems you don't have much pains on the holocene 10000, 11500, 12000 or whatever number comes to the imagination, but to be safe i'll give a name.

The Holocene (Greek for “wholly recent”) Epoch began 11,500 years ago and continues into the present. It is also called the Recent Epoch. The universal boundary for the Holocene is 11,500 years before the present, as measured in calendar years. Human activity has had an appreciable effect on the earth only in the last few centuries.
Alan Morgan B.Sc, M.Sc, PhD. Professor of earth sciences, university of Waterloo

i hope that's clear/ Okay, then i said that's the time 'modern humans evolved' according to science?

modern humans differ from other animals, and probably many early human species, in that they actively teach each other and can pass on and accumulate unusually large amounts of knowledge. Scientists have traced the evolution of human cultural behavior through the study of archaeological artifacts, such as tools, and related evidence, such as the charred remains of cooked food. By 10,000 years ago, people first began to harvest and cultivate grains and to domesticate animals—a fundamental change in the ecological relationship between human beings and other life on Earth. The development of agriculture provided people with larger quantities and more stable supplies of food, which set the stage for the rise of the first civilizations. Today, culture—and particularly technology—dominates human life. The change first began just 10,000 years ago in the Near East and has accelerated very rapidly since then. It also occurred independently in other places, including areas of Mexico, China, and South America. Since the first domestication of plants and animals, many species over large areas of the planet have come under human control.
Richard B Potts, B.A and Ph.D Department of anthropology, National Museum of natural history, Smithsonian Institution.

Your last statement shows your high degree of scientific ignorance. I hope you realize that the germ theory of disease, gravity, continental drift, the electron are all theories. Think of how absurd you look to one who is informed.

Your links told us that the theories on star formation were suppositions, probabilities and hypotheses. It's not my fault what your links said which you saw. Under theories, some guesses are more informed than others. This is the situation of the theories you've just presented. There's a reason why they are not laws, no? But we can practically observe germs, continental drift, electron, and 'gravitation'(gravity is a law to we layboys, it's gravitation that is a theory). Anyone can easily make informed deductions, even SS1 students. this is a world apart from star formations where we see a star 'disappear' and begin to write motion pictures about how it formed X billion years ago and became a dwarf J million years later, and the distance changed and bla bla. Stop comparing sleep with death, they are not the same though they look alike.

@IDERAWOLE
Thank you, and we thank God. i checked your wonderful blog btw.

LIE NO. 12: THE CHURCH BUILDING IS THE SAME AS THE STOREHOUSE OF MALACHI 3:10.
THE TRUTH: Early Christians had no church building.

This is blah blah really. the early church met everywhere, everywhere. The made use of the Jerusalem temple for a long time, and also frequented synagogues. Jesus Himself made it an hobby. Paul talked about preaching house to house and publicly. Sometimes, they even got big rooms for their meetings. How many people's houses can host 120 people, or over 3000 in one accord, or is there a one accord without a coming together? They i.e what you call the early church employed the two means, everywhere. We should cease bringing the people of God under our preconceived ideas and opinions, and stop taking away from God's word.
Act 13:44  And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Almost the whole city came together to hear Paul, stop all this  no church building palaver.

Even if some of the Jewish Christians continued to observe the Law, Scripture gives no examples of First Century Christians tithing to the Jewish Temple, which remained until it was destroyed in 70 A.D.

You'd need to read and re-read the Acts of the apostles really. Paul the apostle, Paul! should be a good person for you to follow in these things.
Act 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing a[b]ll things which are written in the law and in the prophets[/b]
Not only that, not only that,
Act 24:17  Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.
Act 24:18  Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
Hope you can see above that Paul was giving offerings in the temple before his arrest. They observed the the hour of prayer, and other meeting times in the temple, so stop wallowing in in wrong notions.

Tithing is part of the Law (Matt.23:23). Peter said it would be TEMPTING GOD to impose Mosaic Law on them (Acts 15:10). How many preachers tempt God today!

i've mentioned this already but i see it's worth a re-mentioning. The weightier matters of the law are[b] judgement, mercy, faith and love[/b]. Deal with those four too.

LIE NO.13: BRING YE ALL THE TITHE INTO THE CHURCH BUILDING!
THE TRUTH: NOWHERE in the New Testament, not even in the Old, does God command a wage earner to tithe.

Unfortunately, you do not have the right perspective to giving. the Word is Bring ALL the tithe. ALL, even the scribe and pharisee were not left out. those are not primary farmers. Another pharisee said "Luke 18:12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. " If what you possess is not mango and banana, you're free to give it, for where the Spirit of the Lord is, Abraham gave tithes of ALL.

LIE NO. 14: TITHES ARE GOD’S WAY TO FINANCE CHURCH BUILDINGS.
THE TRUTH: The only building God seems interested in is the edification (building up) of the spiritual House of God (I Cor.3:16:II Cor.6:16; Eph.4:12;Heb.3:6; I Pet.2:5). There might be cases where it isn’t workable to meet in private homes (modern zoning laws, lack of space, insurance catch-22’s, health and safety regulations, tenant agreements, etc.). In such cases a basic building might need to be rented or even built (through freewill contributions based on ability). But NOWHERE in any of the Gospels or epistles are believers commanded to construct fancy church buildings, much less use an unscriptural tithe (money) to do so!

Tithe and offerings are used to finance church work, whether it be building or evangelism, or charity, or taking care of workers or church members. And truly, what we see in the scriptures is an emphasis on quality of work, not quantity. And quality deals more with the inside and unseen, but it's never a total neglect of quantity or the outside or visible.

LIE NO. 16: JESUS AND THE APOSTLES FINANCED THEIR MINISTRY WITH TITHES

No they were not financed with tithes, as there was a levitical order on ground, but they were surely financed by offerings. Tithe is a type of offering btw, even a smaller type. And they were not separate from temples and synagogues like today. They didn't exactly need to buy land and build structures, the structures were already on ground in major cases. But they collected from others, and we should do no less to true ministers of the gospel.

If tithing is so all-fired important, why didn’t Paul mention it here?

It's not, it's a light thing that doesn't need mention everyday, and creating countless threads on, and making researches on for YEARS, and making of web front pages. That's why i continue to wonder how much attention it gets by the notorious christians on NL.

Ten percent might not mean much to an affluent person, but poor families subsist on the very thin margin of income left after life’s big bills are paid.

From experience, i think it's the other way round. Giving tithe from 15million naira is humanly more difficult than from 15000naira or 1500 naira. It's even easier to  give it all as a poor person. Even Jesus said it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven. he doesn't want to part with his wealth easily. But thank God for God. With God all things are possible. With God's grace and gift, believers know how to abase and abound, and they can do all things. Christianity is a practical life of faith, the just shall live by faith for real. It's not just by mouth i give or i don't give. Everything should be done in faith, not in fear, for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

LIE NO.21: JESUS MIGHT HAVE NAILED MOSES’ ORDINANCES TO THE CROSS (Col.2:14) BUT GOD EXPECTS US TO BE GOOD STEWARDS. SINCE TITHING IS SUCH A GREAT IDEA, AND BRINGS MONEY INTO THE CHURCH, AN EXCEPTION SHOULD BE MADE AND THIS ONE POINT OF THE LAW OF MOSES SHOULD BE UN-NAILED FROM THE CROSS OF CHRIST AND CARRIED OVER TO THE CHURCH.

Tithing is not limited to the law of moses.
Jesus Christ remains a priest forever after the order of Melchisedek. Actually that's His salute. If Melchisedek could receive tithes, i believe Jesus Himself receives ours. For He said what we do to His body is done to Him. And most specifically, we are told in Hebrews 7:8  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.  i'll continue to give my tithes, knowing that He receives them from me, a pikin of Abraham, just as Melchisedek received from Abraham. And also knowing that i'm made justified by faith in Christ, not by tithing or not tithing. I do not live under the old covenant where they did to be saved, which btw was impossible. I live under the new and better covenant where i am saved to do, and i've been given power working in me to do, and i'll continue to do and do and do until i go home to be with the Lord.

^^
So then, i'm welcome to comment.
i do hope that the cliche that "No one is upset with tithers, at worst we sympathize with them cause they are being fleeced on a continuous basis." would hold true. i strongly KNOW that the worries of these concerned about tithe/tithing are simply much ado about nothing. But still every once in a while it's a duty that we must speak the truth no matter how negligible i might consider it, for tithe is a very little thing in the sight of God.
 Firstly, i'll say that money is an issue with many people christian/non christian, so it's not a surprise that many are so emotive (though it's bad btw). Secondly, it's good to know and note that almost every practice in the 'christian sphere' is been abused and misused in one form of the other. Abuse is not an excuse for disuse. The love of money is the ROOT of all evil, therein is no surprise that the dEVIL'll take advantage of money issues in the 'christian sphere'. But we cannot exactly do without money in this world, we need to be practical, careful and realistic in our dealings. i've noticed some few wrongs in your article which i hope to correct, two wrongs do not make a right. One shouldn't accuse/condemn/disprove others of distorting scriptures or not preaching the whole counsel of God by himself/herself distorting scriptures or not preaching the whole counsel of God, hmmm long sentence. To the article then,

He’ll instruct his flock to wave their tithe high in the air for all to see, contrary to Jesus’ plain instruction:
Matt.6:2: Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.* * *Showing off your donation in church is a boost to your ego, but that’s ALL the reward you can expect!

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be IN SECRET: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.* * *How can you “pay your tithe” in secret, in full view of 5,000 other prying eyes?

i constantly wonder how anti-tithe people manage to erase the word 'offering' from their imaginations. Please let's remember that tithe is a type of offering, keep that in mind please. Now discrediting tithes on the basis of raising it in the air 'for all to see' also discredits all offering. While i don't support unnecessary flamboyance or extravagance in any form of giving, please start having it in constant remembrance that tithe and offering ARE NOT alms. Alms are assistance given to beggars, people in need. Jesus didn't instruct people in that quoted passage on how to give or not give tithe, please do keep that in mind, i would not add to that.

The poor pew-warmer who comes to the big mega-church (where does THIS word exist in the Bible?)

Did any one lay claims to such Bible existence?

LIE NO.1:YOU’LL BE CURSED WITH A CURSE IF YOU DON’T TITHE YOUR WAGES
Instead of bringing a blessing, tithing could make you fall from the grace of God (Gal.5:4). That means you cease to rely solely on Christ’s Sacrifice of Himself to remain justified before a Holy God. Tithing is service to the Law, not the Risen Lord. Far from bringing a blessing from God, tithing brings you back under the curse of the Law spoken of in Galatians 3:13.

This is a poor foundational misunderstanding of the old and new covenants. The foundation is this; in the old covenant you do to be saved, in the new covenant you're saved to do. the two actions are there but in different 'roles'. One, tithing does not make anyone fall from the grace of God. You're not supposed to tithe for justification. Stop threatening people about falling from grace if they tithe, it's no different from threatening people hell if they don't tithe.

Galatians 3:10: For as many as are under the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in ALL things which are written in the book of the Law to do them (This includes such ordinances as circumcision, animal sacrifices, keeping the Sabbath, covering every container in your house as a religious rule (Numbers 19:15)!

Like i've just said, you should not tithe for justification, neither should you fast or give offering or give to the poor for it. The motive is what needs to be addressed in this cases, not the action. What's with the Numbers 19v15 exaggeration? Is that one white lie or which one? You're attempting to make the law look strenuous, not knowing that the new covenant commands are even more strenuous if that's the word to use. But the law didn't say that it's a religious rule to cover every container in your house. Please read it in full with the preceding verse.

LIE NO.2: KEEPING THE TITHING LAW IS AN ACT OF FAITH.
The TRUTH: Jesus called tithing a MATTER OF THE LAW (Matt.23:23).But the Law is NOT OF FAITH

This is becoming quite lazy of anti-tithers. Here it is
Matthew 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Jesus also called judgement, mercy, faith and love as weightier matters of the law. Obviously, it's ridiculous to say that faith is not of faith for instance. that argument against tithe holds no water.

In II Corinthians 3:7 and 9, Paul refers to the letter of the Law as being the “ministration of death” and the “ministration of condemnation.”

Giving or tithing is not equal to serving under the law, please distinguish the two. If anything, i should be accusing you of following the letter and not the spirit of the word, not the other way round.

LIE NO.3: GOD COMMANDS ALL BELIEVERS EVERYWHERE TO TITHE.
The TRUTH: Tithing was given as an ordinance to ISRAEL only! Leviticus 27:30-33 deals explicitly with the TITHE OF THE LAND (edible products only). Verse 34, which is the final verse of Leviticus, the Book of the Law, reads:
These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL in Mount Sinai.

All scripture is profitable. It's wrong to limit scripture or take away from the Word of God by saying it's only to so and so group. Abraham was not an Israelite btw, and he tithed. Plus we are the Israel of God and no more strangers to God. So any of the two ways you're wrong.

Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
We should seek to know the whole counsel of God, and rightly divide the Bible. Leviticus is not the only book in the Bible that speaks on tithe and you know it. And it is not the only book of the law, the whole Bible is the book of the law. Let Joshua 1v8 ring a true bell in your ears.

LIE NO.4: SINCE CHRISTIANS ARE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, CHRISTIANS MUST TITHE TO US, THE SPIRITAL LEVITES.
The TRUTH: Next time your preacher uses that line on you, ask him if he’d accept spiritual dollars.

And what are spiritual dollars? i mean, the concept of spiritual israel and priests are explainable in scriptures, i think if one can explain spiritual dollars it might be readily acceptable?
You know, when you see the relevance of giving in church, not just tithe because that's the smallest percentage i think, you'd not ask too many questions maybe.

LIE NO.5: ALL ISRAELITES HAD TO TITHE ON THEIR WAGES.
The TRUTH: Money was NOT a tithable commodity. Only FOOD was ever tithed under the Law of Moses. Tithes were payable ONLY by owners of farms and ranches. Tithes were NOT taken from the wages of fruit pickers, fishermen, potters, weavers, etc.
Leviticus 27:30: And all the tithe OF THE LAND, whether the seed OF THE LAND, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s: it is holy unto the Lord.

We are not under the law of Moses, remember? we can't be doing things the exact way they do it under the law of Moses.

LIE NO. 6: TIHES MUST BE PAID EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY.
The TRUTH: Tithing was done only at harvest time, when the crops ripened. No tithe was paid during the Sabbatical (seventh) year, because no crops were grown, and the land was allowed to rest (Lev.25:4). How many preachers give poor people a break from tithing TO THEM every seventh year?

Some of these your "LIES", i wonder where you hear them from. Sincerely, i've never heard some of them in any church before, i hear them more from the mouth of anti-tithers. You're at liberty to give your offerings and tithe on any service day, that's one reason why we are not under the law, remember? liberty. You don't have to wait for 'harvest time', i wonder what that means btw. You should tithe of your increase, if there's no increase, there's no tithe naturally.

LIE NO.7: PAUL DEMANDED TITHES IN I CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 9

This is another surprise to me, i've never heard it in a church.

Christ established no clergy/laity pecking order in His church!

Tough truth to say, but God has 'favourites'
Mat 23:11  But he that is greates[/b]t among you shall be your [b]servant.
Mat 23:12  And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Some are exalted, some abased, some master, some servant. It's the attitude in whatever position you're in that should be diligently watched.

When ministers ASCEND the pulpit, you must literally look UP to them. But Jesus FORBADE hierarchy in His Body. He said in Matthew 23:8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and ALL YE ARE BRETHREN.

There's nothing wrong with ascending or descending a pulpit for God's sake. Why do you strain at a gnat? You're supposed to see and effectively hear who'se addressing you in a large gathering. Some places have the podium elevated, some places it's the other way round like a galleria/stadium, some places it's projectors and microphones. these are not the essential things that makes us followers of Jesus. Even Jesus Himself separated to address His audience, sometimes He went into the ship, sometimes He stood while others sat, sometimes he went up a mountain, aaargggg.

Paul suffered terrible privations (I Cor.4: 9-13). But he NEVER commanded tithing.

In the same vein, we can say he didn't rebuke tithing either.

Paul asked only for edible things, not for tithes on wages (I Cor.9:7; I Tim.5:18).

i've never thought that Paul was begging for food from those passages, it seems you're giving abusers of scriptures new methods here.
Galatians 6:6  Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
there's nothing bad in giving out money though, except money is a bad thing?

Paul would have been a rich man if he had taken ten percent of everybody’s wages!

Paul was a Benjamite, not a Levite. Paul had no right to demand tithes.

Good reason, seeing the levites were still very much involved in doing the work.

If tithing on money is a Biblical doctrine, the silence of Scripture is deafening.

At a risk of been sarcastic, maybe you're probably 'deaf', SORRY! Is it not reason that if tithe is a light matter in God's Word, it should not be found in every book? Plus the scriptures do speak on tithing, except you do not believe some of the passages/books to be scriptures.

In Acts 20:33: Paul declares: I have coveted no man’s silver or gold, or apparel.* * * * *Paul also says in verse 27: For I have not shunned (evaded) to declare unto you ALL the counsel of God.* * * * *If Christians had to tithe and Paul never taught it, Paul DID avoid teaching all God’s counsel!

Paul went to Ephesus on different occasions, one time spending more than 3months on the stretch with them. We have an epistle to the ephesians containing six chapters. i think Paul was talking directly to the Ephesians here, now except you have the transcripts of all Paul's messages at ephesus, please don't mention that he didn't teach them X or Y. We do not have all Paul's messages or even epistles. We do not have all Peter's and others. The Bible is not Paul's, god put in paul's part, moses' part, mark's part etc. That is the whole counsel of God.

LIE NO.8: THE TITHE IS ALWAYS TEN PERCENT, PERIOD.
The TRUTH: Three different tithes were paid in ancient Israel by ordinary Israelites.

Forget grammar and logic, a tithe is a tenth no matter the twistings we put. You too you see that they are DIFFERENT tithes.

Because preachers preach about ten percent and neglect the third-year Poor tithe and the Festival tithe, modern tithers fall far short of what the Law demanded.

We are NOT UNDER THE LAW.

As for monetary tithing, the Law plainly states that if you chose to redeem (buy back) your tithe for cash, you had to pay an extra “fifth part” of its value, or a 20% surcharge (Lev.20:31.

i believe this is where you meant to quote?
Lev 27:30  And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:31  And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
This means if one didn't want to give his tithe but buy it, he'd give the tithe at a thirty percent rate, instead of ten percent. i don't know if this had to be monetary form, but if it was monetary as you stated, then it sure shoots down your talk of money not being tithable.

LIE NO.9: ABRAHAM SET THE PRECEDENT FOR CHRISTIAN TITHING.
THE TRUTH: Wicked Sodom was the SOURCE of Abraham’s tithe, the very first tithe recorded in Scripture!

i wouldn't know if Abraham set the precedent for tithing, but i know that Abraham tithed before the law of moses, meaning tithing is not limited to the law of moses as anti-tithers try to enforce. Now Sodom was not the source of Abraham's tithe, what's wrong with comprehension? Abraham conquered four kings and took their spoil, not sodom's
Gen 14:9  With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
Gen 14:10  And the vale of Siddim was full of slime pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
Abraham didn't fight with sodom, sodom was already defeated. He even specifically stated that HE wasn't going to take a thing from sodom; I will not take from a thread even to to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
That Abraham gave tithe of ALL should be clear indication that we are not limited to only tithing mangoes and bananas. And we shouldn't be so naive as to think he gave tithe of other people's property, a tenth of the women, and the people, and Lot's goods and Sodom's goods. The spoils are from the 5defeated kings, which now legally belong to him as a rule of engagement/warfare, not Lot's or Sodom's property. Please, lets rightly divide the Word of truth.

LIE NO. 10: SURELY JACOB’S EXAMPLE VALIDATES CHRISTIAN TITHING?
The TRUTH: Jacob, like Abraham, is recorded as offering to tithe only ONCE.

How many times does it have to be recorded before we can profit from it as believers?

Jacob’s vow to tithe to the Lord was CONDITIONAL. IF God would provide food for Jacob to eat, clothes for him to wear, protect him in his journeyings, and bring him safely back to his father’s house, THEN the LORD would be his God, and Jacob would give God a tithe of all that God would give him (Gen.28:20-22)!

Not forgetting And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house. It's very simple. Did God provide and bring him back, that's the IF part. the THEN part, was God Jacob's God, and did Jacob make Bethel God's  house? there's no need looking up and down all the place. He did give his vow to the Lord's house. We see him also talk of giving tithe of all, not just limited to bananas.

LIE NO. 11: IT’S A SIN TO EAT THE LORD’S TITHE.
Everything ALREADY belongs to God, not just ten percent! The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof (Psalms 24:1).

funny really, then we'll never have to give anything to God again. Not our hearts, devotion, praise, worship, offering, nothing, since everything already belongs to God.

Even the Jews don’t tithe to their synagogues.

Why would they, they did things decently and in order, and not less is expected of new testament christians. that's why you shouldn't give your tithe to just anybody. Most anti-tithers advocate giving it to the poor beggars, or to any church. the OT tithe and major offerings was sent to the headquarters in Jerusalem from where it was distributed to levites and co.

Biblical tithes WERE eaten by the worshipper, and also shared with Levites, the fatherless, widows and other needy folks in the Land (Deut.14:22-29; 16:13-14). Part of Israel’s tithe was consumed at their annual Ingathering celebration (Feast of Tabernacles) when the drudgery of farm work ceased for a happy time of thanksgiving celebrations before the Lord. Tithes WERE eaten! What else could be done with grapes, grain, veal chops, fruits and honey?

i thought you seemed to know earlier that there were DIFFERENT types of tithes, which you were adding to 23percent or thereabouts? You can't eat your cake and have it back can you? It's not common sense that you'd eat your tithe in your gates, and that its the same tithe you'd send to the Lord's house?

@frosbel
i.e in other words, you totally agree with ALL that the article says and you're ready to stand in to defend it, like you'd if you wrote it?

thehomer
I'm waiting for you to finish na? Are you too busy preparing for the 'end'?

It's been a while i made me some tithe anemies, frosbel did you write the article?

@ezniteadin
What can i say? not sure the 'dl members' would come to speak on behalfs, so let me sort of input one or two things/Open thy mouth for the dumb as it were. If it were some other popular church(es), i guess they wouldn't have/need this sort of speak on behalf. Firstly, i think it's wrong avenue for you to address issues with them, i'm sure you know the road to their church office or headquarters, except you just want to incite ridicule and unbelief here. You're not a member of that church, what you should do is meet the church leadership itself or meet God i.e pray, intercede for them. there's nothing prayer cannot do, coming here to complain about perceived lost glory is not the best. Every church has a similar story and need our earnest prayers, not criticisms and discouragements. What i see on a wide range of deeper life is a situation of 'putting away childish things'. There's nothing wrong with childish things if they are done by children. Many churches refuse to put away childish things but hold on to them as their church traditions and continue to develop doctrines and more doctrines for it. Theology doesn't save anybody, it's grace that saves. And whether then or now, dl would have true christians and hypocrites. You say there was a lot of love 'at that time', not everyone agrees. I know people who forever see SUs and all connected with SUs as wicked creatures that deserve hell. Christianity is more than watching T.V, tying turbans, singing slowest, or looking like you'd weep any minute. Those practices are good as it were, but they are not the basics, neither are they the faith christians are to earnestly contend for.
Has deeper life lost focus, or stopped preaching the truth? i don't think so i listen to kumuyi, he still preaches evangelism and holiness. Those have been his ministry's emphasis. i believe they still pray? i don't know of a church that don't. One thing i know of kumuyi is that he'll de-emphasize anything that's not evangelism or holiness, not condemn. He'll stop music, prayer, giving, testimonies etc if they begin to take a fore-front, so it's not surprising if he still does that.
You call Josiah Akindayomi Baba, but you don't want kumuyi to be called daddy. Is he not their daddy? heck, i remember uni and nysc and the way people were calling this young corp members 'papa' and 'mama'. Are those really the things that justify or condemn us, that you're called Brother or bros or 'aissss(you)'? or that the pastor's wife picture is on the church website? That's is not idolatry to be gentle on you. For God's sake, the man preached the next day after she died, and even at her burial. What more do we want? He didn't dedicate a day to her or something or organise a special programme to commemorate her. he even got married! What can you do to please people exactly? My advice for you is just Keep praying. If you see anything wrong in the body of Christ, the best thing to do is take it to God in prayer. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace.
Heb 13:16  Do not forget to do good and to help one another, because these are the sacrifices that please God.
Heb 13:17  Obey your leaders and follow their orders. They watch over your souls without resting, since they must give to God an account of their service. If you obey them, they will do their work gladly; if not, they will do it with sadness, and that would be of no help to you.
Heb 13:18  Keep on praying for us. We are sure we have a clear conscience, because we want to do the right thing at all times.

@thehomer

Rubbish. So tell me, who has the best understanding? And how do you know this? Please do not evade this as is your wont.

Sorry to disappoint you, no one has the best understanding. (1Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.). The more important thing is the application of our knowledge(s), which is wisdom. And wisdom is to fear God, and to fear God is to obey Him and please Him. Everyone that has faith in God/believes in Christ is a member of His body. And has parts of His body, we may actually appear different, but in truth are one universal invisible and invincible body of Christ.

Another reason why I advice you to get a better dictionary. Why don't you look up "scientific theory"?

What's the definition of a better dictionary? you just said that 'the fact that it is a theory is not a bad thing', now i'm to look up scientific theory. Is 'scientific theory' not still a THEORY?
Theory may be well accepted knowledge, but it's still hypotheses and probability.

Rubbish. As usual, what the Bible says and what it shows are different. It takes a lot of gymnastics to make them the same.

Where's the lot of gymnastics? i wrote you one line on this. The Bible says and shows that humans are diverse, and that it's God's will and plan for us all to be united. Do you need scriptures for these or you know it?

What I saw was you forcing it to fit your Bible.

And what was been forced into the Bible that wasn't there? 'turned', 'swaddling', 'band' and 'circle' are all in the Bible describing the shape and movement of the earth. On the other hand, you're seriously hoping the word 'flat' would appear. Stop this vain hope and get serious.

The definition did not say faith was evidence, that was in the example. I asked for the definition which you've failed to present.

i quoted you as saying "Please can you point me to any English Language dictionary that supports any of these proposals of yours?". i've shown you that, though it never matters to me from the start whether a dictionary supported faith or not. Faith is what i practice, and i've shown you from a more sure book, the Bible, what faith means. Stop grumping and get real. You can't rate a dictionary's word on faith above the book that enjoins us all to practice it.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You're simply repeating what I said previously.

Maybe you said it, but didn't see it? What you saw was that 'Science doesn't do proofs because it relies on evidence. You get proofs in mathematics and logic. Science is much broader than that.'. But all glory be to God, it seems you now see that maths is an integral science, and actually used to solve so many scientific problems.

Which group was that? The Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Seventh day adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostal, Baptist, Anglican, Russian Orthodox etc. Pray tell me which group?

Do you believe such group exists? i.e the group that found their claims to be true and truth.

If you were confused, you could have asked for clarification. What I meant was that I did not have their physical copies with me.

It's so sweet of you to clarify. So how many of these books you mentioned as in your possession are older than the Bible? How many have being amazingly preserved despite specific huntings and persecutions?

So you deliberately wish to be vague? This implies that you're not serious in having a proper discussion. Think of a discussion in which one party refuses to clarify their false of confusing statements.

We've been discussing and are discussing so many issues at once. i said i didn't want to talk about spirits. What's not serious in having a proper discussion? You may not want to discuss all issues, and i may not also. If you're so interested in discussing spirits still, maybe you should open a thread on that, i'll try my best to be available for that, happy?

Now that you're caught with a direct question, you wish to evade. Here's another one to narrow it down since that one was too broad for you. Were popes John X, John XII and Alexander XI Christians? How about pope Benedict XVI?

i told you I AM NOT THEIR JUDGE, how did you miss that? It's difficult to answer if someone is a christian or not, i don't know those people you just mentioned apart from maybe being popes. One might be an hypocrite, one might be a sinner and later repent. It's not my position to sentence people to Christianity or Unbelief. But we can discuss actions. Like is this or that action right biblically? If Mr A does this, will God be happy/pleased. By their fruits, we know them. We can say that's christian thing to do, that's not christian. But i can't tell you 14th century catholics were not christians, i can't even say 21st century protestants are christians. Every individual has his own life to live, and God the only Potentate sees more than i see. He can say so and so is christian, i can only tell you it's unchristian/christian of Pastor X or Brother B to do this/that.

Again, you act as though you've not been presented evidence of other books that are in other Bibles. Why don't you look that up too?

The bolded speaks more than i may.
Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9  As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Carefully look through your Bible otherwise I'll have to say you're being deeply ignorant of your Bible or being dishonest.

Be kind to show me, we learn everyday. i.e instructions on how to acquire a slave, how to keep one and how to treat one.
Here's the only place i see the word 'slave' and it's even inserted, (Jeremiah 2:14  Is Israel a servant? is he a homeborn slave? why is he spoiled?) i do not see any such instructions of which you speak, or are you seeing these things by faith?

Yet again, you avoid a direct question. To answer yours, it was called that because if he ate that, he would live forever. Now answer mine.

it's a good try that. So he was already living/or had life then right? Even though he had not ate of the tree of life? Is it equally safe to say he had some knowledge of good and evil even before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? There's your answer in ?format except you are applying double standards for our poor greatgrandpa.

You should request for evidence rather than proof. Go and study on Nebuchadnezzar and the extent of his influence. You may start here. Check the extent of his empire.
Do yourself a favour and avoid looking so dishonest.

Okay, EVIDENCE then? Because i find no evidence in the link you sent to suggest that 'Nebu' did not even know of their existence while we do know that people lived there before during and after his reign. Just curious, do you trust that link, i mean that particular article to be truth?

Slave is not used in the Bible? You're simply lying. Note the meaning of slave that I'm using.

ser·vant [súrvənt]
(plural ser·vants)
noun
 somebody who serves another: an employee who serves somebody else, especially an employee hired to do household tasks or be a personal attendant to somebody.
 A person working in the service of another (especially in the household)
 In a subordinate position
The word 'servant' appears 465 times in the Bible from a search i just made. The word 'servants' appear another 444 times. Isn't it disturbing that the word 'slave' and 'slaves' appear only once each in scriptures. It doesn't even appear that they are synonyms from my current search. So who's conveniently lying? Where's your proof, or is it evidence?

Your God is unserious in in requiring faith. If a miracle was good enough for you, it'll be good enough for me. Tell him to send me a miracle that will turn me to him.

You remind me of a petulant youth who thought  the higher institution was 'stewpid' to require his o'levels before he could be admitted. He ended up submitting both WASSCE, GCE and NECO, and topped it with a certain JAMB pre and post. The station is showing friend. Go, get your antenna or decoder FOR FREE, and connect.
Mark 9:23  Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

@thehomer

This is starting to bore me. If you really cannot see that owning people as slaves is different from being a football player or being an employee then your ignorance is too deep for me to breach or you simply wish to continue in your fallacy.

Sincerely, there's nothing, as in NOTHING wrong with owning people as servants. As much as you may want to wish or ideal otherwise, all fingers are not equal. Everyone doesn't have the same weight, or skin colour, or salary, or talents. We all have different backgrounds, not the same. And BTW, your background is never a reason for your back to be on the ground(defeated). We can actually achieve our dreams and aspirations. A servant can rule, and a prince can beg. It's not a one way ticket. Some people would always serve others, some servants are masters to other servants(i.e some masters are servants to other masters). It's not about the title, but the relationship. Some people are manager, oga, but they almost wash the undies of their director. i've shown you that life doesn't depend wholly on whether you're bought or inherited. It depends on how you react to life and others. And that's what the Bible teaches. the Bible's not a tongue in cheek politically correct book saying all men are equal and free, this's not true in any part of the world. Here's the practical injunction to follow;
Ephesians 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

It registered very well because the picture you paint makes you worse than even Kim Jong Il. Even he won't murder his children or allow them to be murdered willy nilly.

It's not the picture painted that's the problem but the blurred vision you have(or blind vision as i may more correctly say). How do i explain this to you, if i used analogies you rather pick at/dwell on the analogies instead of getting the perspective. But God is like no other i.e there's no one like God. The analogies are only meant to help you see at a closer/different angle. i've told you before, you can't accuse God of murder. Murder is a crime, it's illegal, God cannot commit a crime. It's like for instance when humans rear poultry, you can't accuse me of murdering chickens for christmas, it's kind of ridiculous. We didn't even create the chickens, but we own them, and rear them, we feed them and house them, and can conveniently decide how many/which we want to use for food. i'm told that more than 50billion chickens are reared annually as a source of food, not mention their potential children which we use as eggs.
In a greater vein, God owns the earth and all that is in it, He made it all. While chickens may be a source of wealth, or expensive possessions, we are not to God.
Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Isa 40:17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
That's why we talk about grace. We talk about why God is mindful of us, and of what great privilege it is that He wants us to be His children, and to live with Him eternally. He's unquestionable. It's a strange thing when people relate God and murder, genocide, barbaric and all what not. God is not a man.

Covenants shmovenants. Slavery is a very important issue which was pretty much supported by both your Gods.

what's shmovenants? In the new covenant, there's no physical going out to war, turning captives to servants and co. Slavery was never supported by God both in the old or new testaments, but there are servants and masters. Slavery denotes a combination of the following:
-being forced to work, no compensation, legality of owners to kill slaves, no escape, oppression(e.g forced sex slaves and gladiators), bad treatment and chains, slave pens.
These are different from the relationships enjoyed by Bible masters and servants in that it was actually possible for a servant to declare "i love, i love my Master". A Bible servant could be a lord in his own rights, he could also eat while working. You paint an insincere picture when you talk of 'slavery' been supported in scriptures. The right translation of the relationship was servant, not slave. And when one thinks that the disciples were servants, Elisha was a servant, Abraham had servants, Jeroboam was servant, there remains no cause for alarm.

Rubbish. A God that acts that way is not worthy of being considered a God. You can see this page for a dissection of such a view made by a well known apologist.

i sometimes wonder who made you a judge, and what makes you to be right and others wrong when it comes to the question of morality. An atheist talking about morality, for what purpose?

Aww I'm sorry your God didn't have the declaration of human rights to make it criminal for him to have his acts of genocide.
Again, you still fail to see something that is obviously wrong which humans have identified but your God couldn't.

i've addressed this above.

See above. Of course the new covenant in which God cannot ask you to kill and torture children? Yet you claim that this is God who can decide to do these things. My question is whether you will go ahead with such abhorrent instructions if told to do so.

God doesn't ask us to torture anyone, whether OT or NT. And God respects His agreements/covenants with us. We live in a covenant period of GRACE. Like the Bible says, there's time for everything. It's the time of grace, the time when you can repent.

Go ahead and insert your God wherever you want. What do you mean by life?

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Obviously, i didn't put Him there, He was there before me.
In this case, i mean human life.

Did you not notice that the definitions had some numbers before them?

Did i? What i noticed was that they were synonymous which i earlier stated but which you refused, because you want to make a point.

Actually they do not. Look it up on Wiktionary and Dictionary.com. Actually, you'll notice that in Wiktionary, there is a special definition that binds logic and mathematics.

oh we now require special definitions ba?

No. Please go back and read my request. I asked for the scientists that made that claim. I'll simply have to take your claim as a lie since you've been unable to present one.

This is very irrelevant. The point has been stated, and it's that no human was there when stars formed so they can't begin to tell us(beating the chest) that stars form and annihilate regularly. i'm not obliged to show you what scientist said what. It's commonly taught in the science faculty. What part exactly disturbs you, that the Holocene is 10,000 years ago, or that 'modern humans evolved' in that time?

No. I'm referring to the theories.

why are you taking me through these circles? we already seen from those links that you sent earlier that they are hypotheses and suppositions, and you even commented that they were been honest or so. Theories are castles in the air, speculation.

May 6 Revelation 6v3,7
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see


Human relationship tends to spiral downwards naturally. When you do not know someone, or speak with someone, you sort of respect one another, you almost fear the other even. At first meeting with another, there's this mutual respect normally shared. It's when you begin to know things like the person's age, job, tribe, need, family, that the respect sort of fades away. Now you know he's your junior, or that he's not financially endowed, or that you're intelligently superior to her, or she actually 'eats food and swallows saliva' like everyone else. This behavior illustrates the adage that "Familiarity breeds contempt".
This is almost a natural downtrend of relationships in all humans. But we can actually build healthy relationships, we can respect one another. This is the way we can gain the most from others. And the very same is true with our relationship with God. You can know God so much He's contemptible to you. You've been there, read those and done that. The Word of God becomes a light thing to you, there's no Spirit. But we can learn from the example of John the beloved in our Today's passage.
John had an history with God, a great enviable history. He was actually that special disciple whom Jesus loved. He had seen Pentecost, performed miracles, laid hands on people, written epistles, talked with angels, and with the resurrected Christ in His glory. But he didn't get over-familiar. Here he was in heavenly revelation and yet he was not over-confident. He was called upon to come and see, not once, not twice. He didn't get too familiar or take for granted that one "Come and see" should launch him into a busy body world. He was continually under leading and authority. Little wonder that all those Revelations were fully revealed to him and then for us. To enjoy God, we need this same attitude. Actually to enjoy all our relationships, we need this sort of attitude.

@OP
It's a sort of proof that you have a spirit, a dead one nonetheless.

The search is on then, good luck.
Ahnnn, don't say i didn't warn you 'bout getting D.U.P.E.D. i know my country pipu a lidu better.

You what?

^hmmm, i wouldn't repeat that i'm white british female again if i were you. You may be setting up yourself to be D.U.P.E.D.
To assist your research, you may try also the books of Moses i.e in the Bible. I think there's some 'recorded history' of trousers in it?

Lesson?? From Osama or Obama?
One day na one day, sinner man go die he no go fiti come back, he no go fiti come back, to repent again.