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Without good Friday, there'll be no happy Sunday or Monday. Friday was when Jesus paid for our sins. It was when He gave the devil a technical KNOCK OUT.

@Tonyet

Puppet: A puppet is an inanimate object or representational figure animated or manipulated by a puppeteer. They never argue. They have no crude views about art. They have no private lives.
Puppeteer is a person who manipulates an inanimate object—a puppet—in real time to create the illusion of life.

The bolded above already prove to us that we are not puppets, neither is God a puppeteer. Although there may be a thin line between life and death, and between love and hate. It's needful to STATE that life is not death, neither is love hate. To the thrust of your question anyway, the Bible is many times clear on the point that we are free moral agents with our lives to live and our choices to make.
Deuteronomy 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
We are all free to choose. It really depends on what you want and how much you want it. It's like someone/student hopes to study medicine. He's told of the criteria: to have some credits in o'level exams including Biology, to have up to ABC score in sat/jamb, to spend 6-7 years at med school etc, then he'll be certified a doctor.
He has a choice to work hard in his poor biology, ace his o'levels and jamb,  spend 7years+ X in med school etc, and he'll be certified a doctor. Or he can go on complaining about the 6-3-3-4 educational system, drop out of high school, lament on being a puppet, the rigidity of educational curriculum, the prejudice of having to take exams, and how nature hasn't favoured him. It's basically the same thing between man and God. We are here on earth. We want heaven, whether on earth or in the after-life. God has shown us the Way. Every one can go through that Way, or we can decide not to. But it's good to know that if we decide not to follow the Way, we can't have heaven. If you don't go to medical school, you can't be a Doctor. there's nothing unfair or manipulating about that. I don't want a dropout treating my sick/weak folks. Every one has his/her chance to believe in God, and we should take advantage of that chance.

How come christian folks are made to believe we are free-moral beings, that we are free to make our choices and decisions. while yet we flip thru' the pages of Proverbs 16:4 which says

The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Mind-boggling quest #2: Who made the wicked guys too?

God made us all. there's no one born good. We were all wicked, and headed for disaster. But some of us TURNED. Any one of us can turn. How funny it will be if Adam, Eve, Cain, prostitutes and thieves turned from wickedness and get to Heaven, while we who have done anything wickedly close continue claiming puppet status.

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Revelation 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Today's good Friday. Thank God for good Friday. What a demonstration of God's promise that ALL things work together for the good of them that love God, who are called according to His purposes and plans(Romans 8v28). Good Friday was the day that certified and ratified the new covenant. It puts us in the new testament. Good Friday is the exact difference between B.C and A.D. On good Friday, the lamb of God took away the sins of ALL the world. It was on good Friday that the lamb was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing(Revelation 5). He Jesus Christ was made the paschal lamb, the real passover. He lived to die, to atone for my sins and for yours, to take away the sins of all the world (1John 2v2).
 To do this, effectively, we observed that it was expedient for Him to live and die as a man. Only man has spirit, soul and body. In Genesis, we recall God making man out of dust. The dust was his flesh, his body. Then God breathed on the body, Genesis 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Step one, two and three are revealed in this verse. From forming body, God gifted man with the breath of life. This 'breath of life' is man's life/spirit. It came from God and returns to God when we die. It's not Eternal Life that Christ came to give. When spirit met with body in Adam, man became a living soul. The soul was made like the connector between the spirit and the body, making them one and fused together. Man truly communicates with God in his spirit (Proverbs 20v27) for God is a S[/b]pirit: and they that worship him must worship him [b]in spirit and in truth. John 4:24. The Spirit was designed to be the real man, and God warned man of death if he disobeyed Him. Every sinner is cut off/dead from God. Adam died in spirit, then gradually soul and body. the wages of sin is death. God's gift to us is life, Eternal Life. Eternal Life is available to us for free today, but it was paid for. It was paid for fully by Christ until he said "It is finished". He suffered fully spirit, soul and body, that we might regain life spirit, soul and body, and even paradise. We've looked at His suffering in the body which many are familiar with, and His suffering in the soul. We'll reflect now on His suffering for us in spirit.
  His spirit suffered immensely. The spirit is that part of man which equips him to commune with God. The Son of God was holy, blameless, unstained, separate from sinners. His spirit was united with the Holy Spirit in perfect oneness. Never did there exist a moment of disturbance and doubt, for He always had God's presence with Him. "It is not I alone," declared Jesus often, "but I and He who sent me , And He who sent me is with me" (I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me John 8v16b). John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
For this reason He could pray in John 11v41,42 Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.  And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
 Nevertheless, while He hung on the cross-and if there ever were a day when the Son of God desperately needed the presence of God it must be that day-He cried out,  My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Psalm 22v1)
Lamentations 1:12  Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.
Isaiah says 'it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief'. It was done because of US. His spirit was split asunder from God. How intensely He felt the loneliness, the desertion, the separation. The Son was still yielding, the Son was still obeying the will of the Father-God, yet the Son was forsaken: not for His Own sake, but for the sake of others.
Sin affects most deeply the spirit; consequently, holy as the Son of God was, still He had to be wrenched away from the Father because He bore the sin of others. It is true that in the countless days of eternity past "I and the Father are one" (John 10.30). Even during His days of earthly sojourn this remained true, for His humanity could not be a cause of separation from God. Sin alone could separate: even though that sin be the sin of others. Jesus suffered this spiritual separation for us in order that our spirit could return to God.
When He surveyed the death of Lazarus, Jesus might have been thinking of His Own approaching death, and so " he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John 11.33). Upon announcing that He would be betrayed and die on the cross, He was again "troubled in spirit" (John 13.21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.).  On good friday, on the cross, He was deprived of the mighty strengthening through the Holy Spirit in His spirit (Eph. 3.16) because His spirit was torn away from the Spirit of God.  The Lord Jesus became sin for us on the cross. His inner holy humanity was completely smashed as God passed judgment upon unholy humanity. Forsaken by God, Christ thus suffered sin's bitterest pain, enduring in darkness the punitive wrath of God on sin without the support of the love of God or the light of His countenance. To be forsaken by God is the consequence of sin. He waited and endured(Hebrews 12v2). He'd not give up, he'd not take in vinegar to help alleviate the pain by numbing His consciousness, he'd not faint, He bore it all for us all until he knew it was done. the great transaction is done. then could He declare "It is finished". Then was when he committed His Spirit, then was when He left life. He is Life, He came to give us abundant life. But He had to hold on tenaciously to life for us. He bore it all for us. he bore it all for me, and today, i'm glad to say
Thank You Lord
I love you Lord, I worship You
You are my God, you alone are good
You asked Your Son to carry this,
the heavy cross- our weight of sin
I love you Lord, I worship You
Hope which was lost, now stands renewed, and
I give my life to honor this
The love of Christ, the Saviour King

Tough one this, but one thing i'll reiterate is that all things are lawful unto us, children of God, but all things edify not. We should strive to edify and do all to God's glory. GOD'S GLORY! The devil wants us to be independent, God wants us to depend on Him. And if your hand offends you, do cut it off. There's a Heaven to gain.

@snowwy
All thanks be to God who makes the entrance of His Word bring us all light and understanding.

I believe we're free moral beings, depends on the angle one's looking from you know?

@thehomer

I'm very sure it doesn't have your biblical definition. You're free to paste it here.

HERE . Do you recall when you picked definition 7? Look at definition 5
5. (Christianity) Belief and trust in the Christian God's promises revealed through Christ in the New Testament.
  Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. (Hebrews 11:1 NWT)

And this is your latest attempt to evade your clearly absurd statements. For some reason, you seem averse to admitting when you learn.

What's absurd is your denial of mathematics as a science. What's absurd is when you say there are no proofs in science but in maths and logic. i showed you scientifically, the abnormality of subjecting everything to science. Don't forget transitive property in a hurry.

The song is so divinely inspired that it can be grasped regardless of one's language. That is a step above the Bible you know. Actually, I do and the album lives on. Just check it out on itunes or any popular music download site. You may not have heard the album but I'm pretty much surrounded by people who have. I hope you realize that there are many in China and India (a third of the global population) who have not seen this Bible. Then consider those who you think have the wrong version like the Catholics (the largest Christian denomination).

i see you're so occupied with the point on the popularity of the Bible. so i have to go get this similarly popular album on itunes' website? i don't recall the last time i visited itunes website. How popular exactly is this album that one has to go to itunes to get? You have a Bible if not more than one, i do, your friends do, all your relatives have heard of, and seen the Bible. Can't say the same for this nameless popular album. plus michael doesn't claim divinity? There are even rumours as to him been whether a christian, or muslim, or satanist. you have no case for him joooooo.

It's so divine that the God behind it allowed just one copy not like some Gods who allow forgeries and adulteration of their works.

Why don't you honestly accept that it's a much forgotten insignificant book?

This is even worse than I thought. So according to you, a person with leprosy will first sit around and wait to be healed by God. Then a priest will show up after God has healed him for both of them to play around with animal blood? Wow. I advice you to look up leprosy and see how many times it heals itself spontaneously. Besides, if the person has been cured by God himself, what is the purpose of the rites?

This is exactly like i described you. It's so plain to see english, yet you can't see it. Did you see the IF-THEN clause, does it mean anything to your comprehension? What's according to me? you have eyes to read, or are you literally blind and dead? The cure found in the Bible for leprosy is divine. i didn't say it's the only cure in the world. You out of ignorance, asked for what the Bible says about leprosy, it has been shown you that the Bible states plainly that God can cure it. if you cannot understand such plain children sunday school matters, we can't be found together discussing the significance and applications of Leviticus 14.

If you do not know the basic concepts involved in them and you live on earth with access to the Internet, I'll advice you to look it up. I will not spoon feed you on such basic information.
I wonder, have you read what the world was like when the Bible reigned supreme in Europe? Compare that to what we have now and tell me if you do not think there has been tremendous improvement in interpersonal relations.

shying away, sly move though it won't take you far. The Bible never reigned supreme in europe,you're been insincere or perhaps ignorant of the Bible. Jesus didn't command anyone to go and 'reign in europe', He said to go and preach the good news. i'm guessing you refer to the dark times when religious people took advantage of people. Those people didn't follow the Bible, God didn't send them. Jesus is coming to reign, He's the one with pure and true religion. Every other religion is a counterfeit. He's coming soon, to show us how it ought to be done, and to judge the world. The King of kings is coming, and we(believers) will reign WITH Him.

So according to you, the Catholic Bible is an abnormal Bible? I hope you realize that the words of those other ancient texts will not pass away either. This is further evidence of their divinity. Now disprove my statement.

What books are in the 'catholic Bible'? Any ancient text is ANCIENT as the name suggests. it has passed away. It's irrelevant. If it was relevant, i'll see it in the Bible. You can't try for instance to remove the book of Hosea from the Bible, you can't, no matter the number of people you know or agree with in high places. It can't be relegated to some obscure link, being protected like some strange specie of wildlife about to go into extinction. I've dared you to try it severally.

Nah they're all divine. Besides, we know the Bible is not historically reliable, there are lots of good in those books that came before and after the Bible, some also reveal God and man's purpose. Hmm. Maybe your Bible is simply one of the fakes. I mean if the Catholics who compiled the first ones use the fake, then what do we expect of the sects that came after?

i'm supposed to be more concerned than you are then? Another case of crying more than the bereaved. Where are you, are they all divine or some are fake? Are you on the two sides at the same time? you need to read/re-read church history.

It seems that as usual, you do not know you Bible. What was the tree that Adam was not supposed to eat from?
Maybe you're just speaking for yourself.

Genesis 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
i'm convinced that you're saying something that the Bible does not say. Adam, naive? sounds like words and opposite. i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

Then don't. Just avoid accepting myths as factual stories.

that's nice. thanks for the advice.

This is just sad. So according to you, Nebuchadnezzar ruled over the Native Americans, the Australian aborigines and the Pygmies of Congo? It seems you're losing it. I advice you to just go out and learn about the world as it actually is not about how you wish to force it to conform to your Bible.

Do improve your comprehension. Here's what i said,  "As often, you're quick to conclude what i didn't say. i said you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government. And i've also said if people lived anywhere and Nebuchadnezzar knew of it, then he sure ruled over them. You need some work on your comprehension, sorry to reiterate.
You're the one abusing faith not me. You've put it to wrong use. i've explained faith to you, it is the evidence/proof/indication of the unseen. It's like the sense organ of the unseen. If you don't have it, or fail to use it, there's not much i can do to help you. it's like trying to smell with your ear, or taste with your eyes. If the right sense organ is not used you can't acheive the desired efficient result. that's why the Word refers to unbelievers as dead or blind. they can't sense the things of God, because they do not believe. In God's realm, believing is seeing, not vice versa, i told you that before. It's like a language that you do not understand. how difficult for instance for me to speak or write in japanese to you if you do not hear or read japanese? There'll be very little to communicate, even if i had a lot of things to say to you. You'd need to learn japanese to enjoy my world. it's similar with God.
Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".
Like i've said, you do need life. it's hard to dance with the dead, or to teach colours to the blind. the Bible is not just about understanding english structure and grammar(even you need to work hard at this), it's life. It's not subject to science or to the natural. It's in the realm of the [b]super[/b]natural. It tells us how history. our present and our future like no other book. Most important to this thread, it tells us that God is loving 1John 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. and forgiving Psalm 86:5  For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Psalm 86:15  But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
It also tells us why He God created hell Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
You see, sin is like a virus, actually worse. Whatever file or program it infects is infected, whether angel. cherubim or man. We're all infected for all have sinned. We need the antivirus that is provided to clean this virus. Devil and friends is like a partition that has been condemned for delete, eternal damnation. Good news is we are not yet condemned. We can sit forever complaining about why, how and where we're infected and who infected us. We can vainly glory in the usefulness of the files and programs in us. But more importantly and needfully, we can submit to the antivirus cleansing power of the sacrifice of Jesus updated, and forever speaking better things. It's called giving one's life to Jesus, and then submitting ourselves to a daily scan so that we can be found useful and true. We've all heard the good news, we have no excuse.
1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

@thehomer

I showed you the slavery that I was referring to. Or do you think that the one in the Bible referred to something different? Keep in mind the fact that those slaves in the Bible could be bought and sold
So you would like to be commanded to go on a genocidal spree? What sort of person considers as a role model, a man who asked God to murder 42 children because they were laughing at his baldness? The funny thing is that God of course did it. That shows what you have lurking inside. Please tell me, would you like to be a slave? Would you like to be able to be bought and sold like a camel or a used car? Would you like to work and not reap its benefits?

You're crying more than the bereaved, friend. You're attempting to befuddle issues here. In an attempt to paint he Word in bad light, you've consistently used the word 'slavery' to sort of depict an harsh inhumane cruel state, similar to what obtained between your fathers and the whitemen. Is it coincidence that we see the word 'slave' just once in the Bible(in this case the KJV english Bible which we've both been quoting from in our discussions), and the word 'servant' close to 500times in the same Bible? Is there a sort of bigotry in place by you, or a deliberate attempt to subtly force readers to read in wrong notions? i've shown you from scriptures, and muted your point that a servant in the Scriptures is less than a human being. Jesus was a servant, His disciples were servants, Joseph was a servant, so were Daniel, Esther, Abednego, Joshua and Elisha. All these grew to become strong forces and personalities in their generations, unlike the what you tried to paint when you were emphasizing 'young virgin slaves going to Israelite priests'. Proverbs 17:2  A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.
It seems the english is disturbing you, it's not about the name of the position, stop being sentimental. Are you so blind as not to see even in our midst, so many 'SERVANTS of god' who are more of GODS of the men? Someone is claiming he's not a servant, or not a bastard, but he can't feed well, be clothed well, or even go to school. the other house next door, the houseboy is about writing UTME, is feeding well, and can even afford to feed the other family if chanced. Whose shoe would you rather be? the fact of life is that we are NOT all equal, not even born equal. Some people are master and some are servant, but it's a position that doesn't have to be forever. It depends on you the individual. But God has told us how we ought to behave whatever position we find ourselves. We do NOT live in a state of utopia, how many times do i still have to say that? Some humansMajority of humans would rather mind some other person's business, than mind their own business. People continue to look for, and crave security/fulfilment in jobs serving others. Whatever fine/crude name you call it, you're working for someone with terms and conditions, all over the world. You're so concerned about buying or selling,do you watch sports/more particularly football? Do they sell/buy people? Do you see nigerians training and 'praying' real hard that some club would buy them? Do they sign contracts and deals for so and so years? Are they bound to their contracts? Or now, they are footballers, they are permitted to be bought or sold? they actually sell some players free! It depends on your perspective really, i can't force you to reason. As common to you, you attempt to derail the point by talking of some 42. Did Elisha the servant of Elijah not enjoy more than you ever would? He had a double portion of Elijah's anointing, and he was a NATIONAL figure. Who was working and not reaping its benefits. Do you see Abraham's servant, or Jeroboam the servant of Solomon, or the servants of Jesus, or Joshua the servant of Moses? Those were servants in the Bible, study their lives practically and see them answer your 'questions'.

God can do as he pleases yet he will not command you to kill three people? A God that has commanded people to kill their fellow tribes people, a God that has commanded genocide, a God that has killed children cannot command you to do that? Maybe you are the one greater than God. Or, will you simply ignore such an order if it came down?

we're in the new covenant, i told you that earlier, and every Bible student/scholar knows that. God keeps His covenant. (a solemn agreement that is binding on all parties). Ever heard that song 'Covenant keeping God'? It's in His nature to keep His word/covenant/promise/testament. That He can doesn't mean He would, He's not a robot neither are you/i. Like for instance, you can spit on yourself or computer, you do possess that ability, but it doesn't mean you would. You have standards and perhaps reasons/values. i show you again from God's covenant with us.
2Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Please, always do remember that we live in a period and covenant of GRACE.

If God's standard is what is indicated in the Bible, then we are better off ignoring it and making ours (which is what people in sensible countries have done).

Please give examples of sensible countries and some these standards that they have made.

So, who ordered those genocides?

Genocide, crime of destroying or conspiring to destroy a group of people because of their ethnic, national, racial, or religious identity. Raphael Lemkin, a Polish legal scholar, coined the term in 1944 to describe Nazi Germany’s annihilation of groups by direct murder and indirect means during World War II (1939-1945). The Nazis’ specific attempt to totally destroy the Jewish people and the Roma, or Gypsies, became known as the Holocaust. Genocide has been a crime under international law since 1951.
Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Case dismissed.

I'm not talking about metaphors. You need to follow the thread back to see that you were comparing ethical behaviour to physical attributes.

i've been following all along, and trying to show you the need for standards, singular benchmark reference standards. And i gave you an instance of physical measurements, so that you could readily relate the analogy. Humans learn faster with what they see, or know. i was seeking to help you from known to unknown. To see why we should have international standards for physical measurements, and then transfer to why we should have God's eternal standards for our behaviours. And i'm showing you that it's a principle that we can easily see in daily life and in the Bible. People use physical and common things' behaviour or attribute to relate to deeper or more abstract things.

The age of the universe is not in trillions of years. Also, when you observe stars that are thousands of light years away, you are in a sense looking back into the past.

i meant to say billions of years, it's the same logic and question. You can't observe billions of years ago, even millions, you can at best guess. You shouldn't build your faith on guesses. Before you said 'directly', now it's 'in a sense'. It's so simply, no matter how we twist it. You can't go out now with a telescope, or some other gadget, and presently look at a star and tell me that you're "observing formation and annihilation" of million years olds.

Science doesn't do proofs because it relies on evidence. You get proofs in mathematics and logic. Science is much broader than that.

Are you high? What is proof, what is evidence? i always thought they were the same thing, maybe you need to define/redefine these things including science. So you're denying mathematics, sorry o maths, even peter denied Jesus.

I notice how you do not actually cite any specific scientific literature. Even the links you posted give the lie to what you're saying. Go back and read them properly. The Wikipedia link does not say that was when humans started roaming the earth, the weegy link which is not a scientific journal says humans actually arrived in the late pleistocene (2.6 million years - 12000years). Carefully go through your links and understand what they say. If you do understand what they say, then you are being dishonest in deliberately misquoting them.

i don't need to go and read links. you asked for links. i knew about what i said before i ever saw any links. i know that science says we're in the holocene epoch, that that epoch is said to be about 10,000 years ago, and that modern humans(the name scientists call us) evolved in this epoch. This free information i'm giving you is what some people are using for thesis in higher institutions of learning. it's not my fault you don't know it. Go and improve your comprehension, and re-read the links you requested. it's baffling how you choose to treasure links, but frown when others quote people. Are links more important than people, well renowned people who are established Drs, professors, presidents?

Did you see everything that you know happen before you?

No, but i don't claim them like i saw them.

Scientific theory doesn't mean what you think it means. I hope you realize that gravity, plate tectonics and the understanding that germs cause diseases are scientific theories too.

While you're back in my thoughts, what does scientific theory mean, as briefly as you can describe.

The Bible has spoken and we have seen that lots of the things in it are wrong.

Who are 'we'? i thought we were the only two discussing?

And again you demonstrate the problem with such thinking. What you're saying is that if we are able to show that God was not needed, you will still introduce your God.

How's this an introduction of God, we've been talking about Him all along. i told you He's in charge of all the earth, and that we are kept by His power. i even quoted scriptures to that effect, and said He's the reason why the earth wouldn't deviate, or that none of the millions of objects in the sky could cause a earth threatening imbalance. Chaos doesn't produce order, nothing doesn't produce all things. It is God, the omniscient being behind all of the earth and universe.

This is the usual dancing around that we see with Bible readers. When something has been shown to be very wrong or bad, they assign it to metaphor. This is simply picking and choosing what you want in the Bible. Another bad sign.

the Bible clearly says in the same book of Job 26:7  He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. When you see reference to bars and doors, please be honest enough to comprehend it as a metaphor and understand the message passed, or ask others, like meee.

I have gone through the article and did not see it. Please post a link to this phenomenon.

What article did you go through, for thehomer's sake, google is your companion. Just type planets shift/migration or something. you don't know this science that you so heavily rely on. So you don't know that scientists say that the planets used to move up and down and exchange positions? you don't believe it yet ba? i know you'll accept it when you see it, it's apart of the nebular hypothesis film. To help you though, you gave me a link and i recall seeing it there. It's the 'formation and evolution of solar system' link, check the first few paragraphs.

This is a clay seal. And this is how it is done. Please learn from this and stop repeating your mistakes.
Which scientists hold that the earth is flat? Which ones claimed that the earth was flat? I ask because we actually do know of the many Christians who thought that the earth was flat.

Here's what i said "Do you know what a clay seal is? Do you know the meaning of 'turn' and of 'swaddle'? If Isaiah saw the earth as a circle, why are you forcing your interpretations of flat earth, or of disc? Ever occured to you that there may not have been words to distinct a circle from a sphere or a geiod in Isaiah's time? Ever occurred to you that a circle is round and a geoid is also round? the Bible's not a geography textbook, yet it's most accurate than any of those scientists who were and still hold that the earth is flat shaped."
i see you could only pick out the first question to 'attack'. It's the unbeliever's general attitude to God's Word, picking and choosing, forgetting all the right and nibbling at the little seeming wrong. i said do you know what a clay seal is, i didn't say i don't know. Thanks for showing me though, hope you learnt something too? Do you know the flat earth scientists?
Observe the Job 38 passage, it's not difficult to see/picture that it was talking of the roundness and rotation of the earth.

Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
It's God speaking to Job in a language he understood. Do you sincerely think Job would understand if God told him in english that the earth was a geoid or spheroid or whatever shape scientists always change it to be?
Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
There goes the metaphor
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
there again
Job 38:8  Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
and again
Job 38:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
If you could picture this, He's talking about the clouds and darkness surrounding the earth. Apart from the garment covering, the words 'swaddling' and 'band' actually depict a round picture.

swad·dle [swódd'l]
(past and past participle swad·dled, present participle swad·dling, 3rd person present singular swad·dles)
transitive verb
1.  wrap somebody in something: to wrap or bandage somebody or something with something
2.  wrap baby up tightly: to wrap a baby tightly in soft material
3.  smother somebody or something: to restrain somebody or something with a complete wrapping

band [band]
noun (plural bands)
1.  strip or loop of material: a strip of fabric, metal, or elastic placed around something to strengthen it or around several things to hold them together
2.  contrasting stripe: a long narrow area that is different in material, color, or texture from the adjacent parts
3.  strip or circle of material: a strip or circle of fabric or elastic used for decoration, identification, or absorbing sweat on the forehead or hands
4.  ring: a plain ring worn on a finger
a wedding band


Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Sure you know the word wrap. Swaddle and band all point to a round shape.
Job 38:14  It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
'It' refers to the earth, "it is turned". the earth is turned. the earth turns, they call it earth rotation and revolution. the earth is turned, how? the simile given is 'as clay to the seal' From your link, you can at least picture how clay is turned on a clay seal. The turning, the roundness is so obvious no matter how you try to twist it. Christians may say anything, they are not omniscient, they also fail exams, they may be wrong like unbelievers. But the Word of God is not wrong. the Word tells us plainly that the earth has a round shape and that it is turned.

Now I know you are simply lying because what I posted showed how star annihilation was seen with the unclothed eyes and with telescopes. I've decided to stop spoon feeding you on trivial issues. Simply look up star formation and get yourself informed.

i know the story on star formation thank you. You've already conceded that you were wrong to say that stars were observed forming and annihilating REGULARLY, i guess the issue is overflogged already?

@thehomer
my initial thought was to 'ignore' you, seeing it's more like you're interested in having the last word than in sincere discussion. And i was like well, so let it be, have the last word if you wish. But on 'seventh' thought, i'm responding at least for now. Like i told you before, i'm not God, i don't have all the answers, God does. While i may be able to answer your posted questions, or someone else on the forum may, we cannot satisfy man Only God can give you what you need which is above answers, if you have Jesus you won't even need answers, sometimes we call Him the Answer. We can only try (which is a big try) to show you a better, or if you want it another perspective. Actually, normally, usually, and historically, i don't respond to/answer your type. i see you as blind i see you as dead.
2Corinth 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Corinth 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
i was too by the way, and every child of God was once blind and dead before too, if that consoles you. It will only take a miracle to communicate effectively with the dead or blind, or best yet a opening of eyes or raising of the dead. That's why i often show you that you have faith, and that you can use this faith rightly, come alive, believe and see. the, our work would be easier.
1Corinth 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
my answering you may serve as a witness against you, or may help in your salvation, and you wouldn't sincerely say in future that you were looking for answers and found no one to help you. As i projected, you came up with more questions, and it's just the first of many paragraphs.

Where did I twist your words[b]?[/b] The example of the thief and the plasma tv is what is implied by your God simply sitting around forgiving for belief. Are you God[b]?[/b] Where did God say "only repentant sinners"? The last time I checked, it was by faith alone not works or anything important. Actually, God is on trial. Do you have any evidence for this soul[b]? [/b]Do you really think it is justice to punish someone eternally for a crime committed over a finite period of time[b]?[/b]
So what did God tell you about slavery[b]?[/b] Is it righteous[b]?[/b] How about performing abortions is that righteous[b]?[/b]

It's like i'm seeing this thing in front, and i'm telling the person next to me "Look at that". he's like "I can't see that". So i look at him and he's quite short, and i say "Oh climb this, or let me carry you, so you can see that". then i carry him, only to discover that he's not just short but has a medical history of being short sighted. I give him correcting glasses, only to discover that he's not just short-sighted but BLIND. And i'm thinking of what to do until i again realise that he's not only blind, he's DEAD. that's like our situation here really. There are two solutions, one to be honest. One is that you get saved by believing and giving your life to Christ, that takes you from death to life, and from blindness to sight. Or two is that you humble yourself to see things from another perspective, the christian perspective. Like i usually see my brother Olaadegbu write "the man with an experience is not at the mercy of the man with an arguement". i'm not at your mercy, neither is God. i've experienced Him, and i'm only trying to show you what i've experienced. your arguments cannot change or erase my experience. I was once in sin, but Jesus saved me, and i know that i know that i know that i know that He saved me. We're in a relationship, we understand ourselves better than you do. If you want to be part of the relationship, or the understanding, you've got to sort of rely on one of Us. A relationship is more than lab science, or courtroom evidence. In a relationship, one may use a phrase, or slang, like for instance "i'm coming", or a nod or a wink. It might represent some constant value in the lab or courtroom, but those involved in the relationship understand exactly what it means or meant. A husband might wink and the wife understands the whole message, you the observer might not even see it, or see it and take it to mean something else. It's up to you the observer to rely on the two in the relationship for a true understanding, or continue yapping about nothing. In clear terms, what i'm saying is if the Bible says so and so, allow us to explain it to you because we understand it better than you, we KNOW him.
Hebrews 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
now, have you thought of what you'd do to God after your trial? God require that sinners repent. Faith in God's forgiveness is hinged on repentance.
Matthew 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 6:12  And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Psalm 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Faith for forgiveness is demonstrated through repentance. Like i said, they are hinged, they go hand in hand for real salvation. Repentance without faith is simply making a resolution, it wouldn't save. Faith without genuine repentance is dead faith. Proverbs 28:13  He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
God is my best evidence for the existence of a never dying soul, i believe Him, remember? Do you have substantial evidence to refute His claim? It's not about what i think is justice or injustice, it's about the facts and realities of God and coming judgement. i adviced you to face facts, not fight or deny facts. And we've been through this line of argument, i might feel something just and you may not. Some people feel it is just to kill others for election results, do you? One thing we all have in common though is a will, an ability to adjust or adapt to life, to nature, or to facts. Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
i behave like you and look for the words 'slavery' and 'abortion' in the Bible, it's not there.

Of course you'll say that but tell me, how many amputees did he heal in the Bible? He healed paralysis, bleeding, walked on water, floated into heaven, turned water into wine even raised the dead people to the tune of an entire zombie army yet not one amputee was healed.

Please do not skip this question this time, i'm really curious. ARE YOU AN AMPUTEE? If you are, sorry, well God can heal you. As you've said above, He's done and does greater things than that. Don't know though if healing amputees would make you believe Him, seeing that you claim that He did other mighty miracles and yet do not believe. BTW, i don't find the word 'amputee' in my Bible. It's maybe there was no amputee to heal, or maybe there was another name, like say 'lame' or 'cripple'. i think that theyare the same class/family though. If He can heal those, He can heal all. How big is your faith thehomer?

@all
Just thought i should add this,
Jesus is the foundation of the christian faith, nothing else. Not doctrine, not healing, not miracle, not giving, not tongues, nothing but Christ. Christians do need to grow into the knowledge and perspective of God. Every part of the body of Christ cannot be shouldnot be expected to do the same thing. Not every part of your body can walk, or chew, or write, but they are all parts of the same body and ought to be united to the PRIMARY goal of life, in this case ETERNAL LIFE. You can't trade eternal life for nothing else. The gift of God is eternal life, it is Christ, it's the Head. We all should grow in thee art of holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Doctrine is not foundation, Christ is foundation, eternal life is foundation. you can have the right doctrine and miss Heaven, you can have healings and miracles and miss Heaven, you can have prosperity and miss Heaven, you cannot have eternal life and miss Heaven.
It ought not to be a question of Kumuyi did not say this to that. can he? i think so. should he?maybe or maybe not, it depends. He ought to get his message from God, not me. So are his church members missing out in this big deal, or is doctrine useless, and all that matters is eternal life? no and a capital NO. That's where rewards come in, eternal rewards to be specific. Never forget, the foundation is Christ, is eternal life, and it is primary, PRIORITY. But you're supposed to build on the foundation nonetheless. Some people build superstructures on no foundation, that's bad but superstructure nonetheless. It's the example of having good doctrine, but no life. There's no wrong in having a superstructure on the right foundation.
1Corinthians 3:11 For other[b] foundation[/b] can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If you don't have doctrine, you may still get to Heaven but will have little reward compared to those who have good Bible doctrines. There's a reward to obeying God's Word. Let's not be misguided into thinking that God is not watching.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
God's not going to build for you by Himself. It's what you build. Your building doesn't determine salvation or eternal life, the Foundation does. Headcovering, miracles, prophecy, giving, wearing this or not, they do not directly effect your eternal life, but they are the structures you build nonetheless, not that they don't matter or that God is not concerned. it's never time to laugh at others or make carnal comparisons. It's time to build, to build with gold at best, to build according to biblical patterns.

We are drawing nearer to good Friday. Good Friday was actually bad sad Friday. All the disciples were in fear, many hopes were dashed. the disciples said (Luke 24:21) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel:. Good people went into hiding instead of into rejoicing. But now with a better perspective, we can look back and say that was good Friday, actually it was the best Friday ever. But from what we've been looking at, we recall now that Jesus suffered for us, not for Himself. And that man been a tripartite being i.e having spirit, soul and body, it was needful for our punishment/judgement to be tripartite to be full, perfect and acceptable. Only Jesus met that criteria, no man could or can because we are all already corrupted by the Adam gene virus(the Adamic nature). That's why God had to send His Son in form of a man. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. We are fleshly and usually readily think more of the flesh and physical. We are quick to remember vividly Christ's sufferings in the flesh, the beatings, the nails and the thorns. Christ also suffered for us in the soul.
We'll say it again, Our Lord was stripped bare before Pilate and again on Calvary. How would His holy soul react to such abuse? Would it not insult the holiness of His personality and cover Him with shamefulness? Who can enter into His feeling of that tragic moment? Because every man had enjoyed the apparent glory of sin, so the Savior must endure the real shame of sin.

Psa 89:45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
Psa 89:50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
Psa 89:51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
A week before the Passover He was heard to mention: John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. This points to the cross. While in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus was again heard to say: Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Were it not for these words we would hardly think his soul had suffered. Isaiah 53 mentions thrice how His soul was made an offering for sin, how His soul travailed, and how He poured out His soul to death
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath[b] poured out his soul[/b] unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors
He bore the psychological torture just for us. He never had to know pain or worry for all eternity. He never made mistakes. Jesus did it all in our stead. Because Jesus bore the curse and shame of the cross, whoever believes in Him shall no more be cursed and put to shame.

.

The Bible records that the soldiers took the garments of the Lord Jesus (John 19.23). He was nearly naked when crucified. This is one of the shames of the cross. Sin takes our radiant garment away and renders us naked. Our Lord was stripped bare before Pilate and again on Calvary. How would His holy soul react to such abuse? Would it not insult the holiness of His personality and cover Him with shamefulness? Who can enter into His feeling of that tragic moment? Because every man had enjoyed the apparent glory of sin, so the Savior must endure the real shame of sin. Truly "Thou (God) hast covered him with shame . . . with which thy enemies taunt, 0 Lord, with which they mock the footsteps of thy anointed"; He nonetheless "endured the cross, despising the shame" (Psalm 89.45,51;
Heb. 12.2). No one can ever ascertain how fully the soul of the Savior suffered on the cross. We often contemplate His physical suffering but overlook the feeling of His soul.

The north needs a massive invasion of education. The government should make huge efforts to really educate the north in the next 8-12years EMERGENCY. I pray for God's peace and safety for those involved, and for the situation to be contained in Jesus' name.

Jesus died for you.

@thehomer

Wrong. The Bible recommends playing with animal blood.

i've talked of this on the other thread, but let me sort of reiterate. All the time that the Bible talks about healing or cure for leprosy, it's about divine intervention. i think it's three times in the old testament, i'll mention them.
1. Moses
Exodus 4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.
Exodus 4:7  And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.
2. Miriam
Numbers 12:10  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
Numbers 12:13  And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
Numbers 12:14  And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.
3. Naaman
2Kings 5:8  And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.
2Ki 5:14  Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
2Ki 5:15  And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
The new testament records of cures on lepers were done by Jesus healing them. Even despite your pride and arrogance, let me show you what Leviticus says

Lev 14:2  This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
Lev 14:3  And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be HEALED in the leper;
Lev 14:4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
Note the IF-THEN statement in bold. The rest of the passage is not about cure or healing, but about cleansing rites. These were all significant ceremonies to the Israelites with sundry lessons for today's CHRISTIANS of which you are not one, at least not yet. But FYI, we don't observe that again as Christ has fulfilled all that ceremony on our behalf as well. We live in the new covenant, which is better than the old covenant.

Again, if you do not know what capitalism, democracy and free enquiry entail, then look them up. They are best because societies with them generally fare better than other societies. And, it is not properly spread all over the world. I hope you know that we've been through a time when the Bible was supreme and I'd rather those times never return.

Like i said earlier, you've declined to show me the concepts involved in this three terms, so i'll leave you with it. i still retain that there's no good thing that has brought significant progress in this world that has taken it's roots from biblical principles. Our very civilization owes itself to the Bible. i've asked and will re-ask, if these three systems of capitalism, democracy and free enquiry are the best things to happen to the world as it were, why are we still the way we are? Why is there fightings, wars, injustice, economic meltdowns, depressions, unemployment, crime, corruption etc? Why haven't they solved the world's problems? Is nigeria not practising democracy? We've never been through a time when the Bible was supreme, maybe you meant to say religion though. The time is still coming though, when the Bible would be Supreme when Jesus comes to reign on earth. He's coming to show us the way it ought to be done. He's coming soon.

Daniel 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Genesis 49:10  The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Luke 1:31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

It seems you need to go to a bookstore and pick up a copy of the Catholic Bible and reduce your ignorance on the matter. 66 books only. Please educate yourself on how the Bible you so gleefully dance around with came about.

we've talked on this. i was talking about the normal Bible that everyone know of all this while and you know it. you even have it, and can't seem to do without peeping into it every time. God says
Luke 21:33  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Isaiah 40:8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand forever.
that's the bench mark. No group of people or council or government, no political party, no society, body or organisation can remove or add any book to the Bible of its own accord. It can't be done. i told you before, you can try it. You have internet, gsm, you even have pdp, un, unesco, and you're 'more intelligent' than these cavemen and fishermen that compiled the Bible, yeah right. Go for it please, disprove those verses above.

Oh so they're special too? Well what stops them from being divine and yours being the heretic text?

We already talked about this when you asked me for reasons why i believe the Bible above other books? Among others, i recall talking of its answers to life's issues, my finding everything 'good' that may be found in other books also in the Bible, historical reliability compared, eternal life, holiness, the revelation of God and the purpose of man. The presence of fakes show that there's an original, and thank God He's clearly shown the original. the difference is clear for those who really see.

Rubbish. He was naive that is one of the things we call people who do not know right from wrong. And by God's design too.

And does the Bible say that Adam didn't know right from wrong? like i said earlier, i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

Myth.

Suit yourself and wear a shoe to match, i'm not discussing about man having a spirit or heart, different from his brain

Aaah the ultimate copout of one who refuses to actually learn. It's been a while since I heard it. Such is the terrible effect of faith. If you do not know that while Nebuchadnezzar lived, there were people and animals in the Americas and Australia, then your problem is just profound.

As often, you're quick to conclude what i didn't say. i said you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government. And i've also said if people lived anywhere and Nebuchadnezzar knew of it, then he sure ruled over them. You need some work on your comprehension, sorry to reiterate.
You're the one abusing faith not me. You've put it to wrong use. i've explained faith to you, it is the evidence/proof/indication of the unseen. It's like the sense organ of the unseen. If you don't have it, or fail to use it, there's not much i can do to help you. it's like trying to smell with your ear, or taste with your eyes. If the right sense organ is not used you can't acheive the desired efficient result. that's why the Word refers to unbelievers as dead or blind. they can't sense the things of God, because they do not believe. In God's realm, believing is seeing, not vice versa, i told you that before. It's like a language that you do not understand. how difficult for instance for me to speak or write in japanese to you if you do not hear or read japanese? There'll be very little to communicate, even if i had a lot of things to say to you. You'd need to learn japanese to enjoy my world. it's similar with God.
Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Wetin we no go hear for nairaland?

This is bad. People need Jesus so urgently. OP, leave this relationship, it's not till death do you part. i'm guessing he's been sleeping with you, and probably was the one who deflowered you. Now you're joined to him some way. Leave him and give sincere attention to truly serving God, it will heal the pain fast. I guess you don't have a problem with forgiving him? The solution's in your hands, leave him alone.

@chiteny
don't mention it, Thank God. Keep watching and praying.

Wetin we no go hear for nairaland

@thehomer

No you don't. Attempting such a comparison would lead at some point to a sort of equivocation fallacy in attempting to force a particular group of objects into another.

Like i said, suit yourself in french if it makes you glad. In the everyday world, people tend to relate unseen things to physical objects. People use different things to demonstrate love, maybe a red heart, flower. It's called metaphor. it's so common in the Bible too like i said. See for instance
Isaiah 66:12  For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
The 'her' is comparing/relating a place, i think Jerusalem, and of course peace like a river.
Proverbs 14:27  The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Mark 1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Jeremiah 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
1Corinth 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Ezekiel  36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh

Oh? Actually, with the evidence we do have, it is pretty clear why the solar system is the way it is. And you need to realize that probability plays a very large part in science and actually is a field in mathematics. You need to realize that what has been presented is based on evidence that was directly observed, inferred and calculated.
The fact that scientists use cautious words simply demonstrates their humility. And you need to realize that science does not do proofs. And that is a core reason for such language.

Sorry i meant to say "Probabilities are part of science" not 'Probabilities are part of unscientific'. You can't say what has been presented is based on evidence that was directly observed. You can't observe trillions of years ago, you can only guess. The fact that scientists used cautious words demonstrates that they are not sure, it may be it may not be. So stop building your faith on probabilities. What is 'science does not do proofs'?

Why do I have to be the one to teach you how to read entries? The first link was talking about when humans settled in Rhode Island. The Wikipedia entry was talking about the extinctions caused by modern man. Where does it say that humans suddenly sprung up 10000 years ago? It was not written in Genesis but that is what is implied if it is to be taken as true. This is gotten from calculations based on the Bible stories.

i remember telling you that "Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved". you then said

Please what scientific work are you quoting? Could you please present a link? It appears that you are simply making absurd claims and attributing them to science. This is a bad tactic.

And i was kind enough to give you a link. This is science, they teach it in school. If you're not aware of the geologic time scale, it's not my fault. But if you need to know, read and know that Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved. Let me quote some part of that google page i linked you to.

The period starting about 10000 years ago is called the Holocene epoch. This is also known as the time of modern man. ,
www.jamestown-ri.info/holocene.htm - Cached - Similar
Holocene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Holocene is a geological epoch which began 11700 years ago (around 10 ,
Overview - Geology - Climate - Ecological developments
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene - Cached - Similar
Holocene epoch — FactMonster.com
During the Holocene epoch, the sculpturing of the earth's surface to its present , All of the races of modern humans were fully developed, with eventual ,
www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0823996.html - Cached
Scientist believe that modern humans appeared during the ___
Modern humans first appeared in the Holocene Epoch. 8/11/2010 6:54:22 PM. got_a_brain. Points 132|Joined 8/6/2010|Offline. Holocene epoch ,
www.weegy.com/home.aspx?ConversationId=B54A674C - Cached
Holocene epoch: Information from Answers.com
For a list of words related to Holocene epoch, see: Geological Time Scale - Holocene epoch: 10000 years ago to present; modern humans ,
www.answers.com › Library › Literature & Language - Cached

Thanks for telling the truth that "It was not written in Genesis", unlike when you said "I'll also like to see your scientific evidence for the claim of humans being around for only 10,000 years (4000 years longer than Genesis says).

Where did I claim I saw it? I've explained to you that these conclusions are arrived at by evidence. Evolution is a scientific theory whether you like it or not.

i said 'You claim it like you saw it', not 'You claim you saw it', you need to focus on your comprehension, except you're making deliberate attempts to obfuscate issues though.
i like it that evolution is a scientific THEORY and theory it will ever remain.

Using the Bible as evidence of its veracity is a fallacy called making a circular argument.

we've been through this, you're recycling this if anything. you can't accuse something or someone without giving it opportunity to speak for itself/himself, or be spoken for. It's called 'fair hearing'.

What do you mean by this? Please look up what deviation is before responding.

Yes Sirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

de·vi·a·tion [dvee áysh'n]
(plural de·vi·a·tions)
noun
1.  change or difference: a change or difference from what is usual, accepted, expected, or planned
These rituals represented a deviation from established practices.

2.  psychology unacceptable behavior or attitude: behavior or an attitude that is sharply different from a customary, traditional, or generally accepted standard
3.  statistics difference from statistical average: the difference between any individual value and a fixed value such as the average of all the other values in its series
4.  navigation compass error: an error in a compass reading caused by local magnetic fields, especially on a ship at sea

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Deviation is what would make the earth go close to the moon, deviation, deviation, remember? As usual, you were probably not following our discuss. i was saying deviation can end human life whether in changing speed and co, and i said it's God that has put the earth in it's orbit and the other planets. You may have been taught that it's something like graviational force or so, but i know there's a Force behind/beyond every force or name.

What do bars and doors have to do with it? Do you see bars floating in space? It seems you simply wish to use scientific words without understanding what they mean because what you've written is simply gibberish.

It's called 'metaphor'. You're behaving like you don't know science, you don't know art. i asked you to tell me some things in commerce, you declined. i'm suspecting you oo.

Wow a sudden shift when your ignorance is made very glaring. I guess you don't know that as the earth moves, the moon does also. Where did yo see that planets in the solar system used to exchange positions?

Can you describe this wowing shift, maybe it might also wow me. Maybe you should write that word 'deviation' on your door. It may help you to grasp it's meaning. So you don't know that according to the 'nebular hypothesis', planets used to exchange positions? wiki is your friend, if you don't see it, tell me, and if you see it be thankful for once.

You are simply forcing your bible too hard to fit with what we actually know. Please don't force it excessively otherwise, it may start to bleed. What do you think a seal is? Please look it up and go through my explanation. Darkness a swaddling band around clouds? Could this description of anything sensible be worse? Please note for future reference, a circle is not a sphere. One of them is two dimensional, the other is three dimensional.

Do you know what a clay seal is? Do you know the meaning of 'turn' and of 'swaddle'? If Isaiah saw the earth as a circle, why are you forcing your interpretations of flat earth, or of disc? Ever occured to you that there may not have been words to distinct a circle from a sphere or a geiod in Isaiah's time? Ever occurred to you that a circle is round and a geoid is also round? the Bible's not a geography textbook, yet it's most accurate than any of those scientists who were and still hold that the earth is flat shaped.

Now you are simply lying. Did you not see the quote I pasted? Did you not read that it had been observed by telescopes and by the unclothed eyes? Please learn to read an entire article before arriving at a conclusion. Just look up star formation. I've spoon fed you enough. You need to be mature enough to search out information. I've obliged you too many times.

You were the one who said "we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope'. i've proved you wrong, the links have also proved you wrong. And the links were only on the 'annihilation' part. the ball's in your court, you're the one to prove that we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope, not me. Most of what you pasted were refreshers to me, not discoveries. i know about the STORY on star formation. It's also built on suggestions and guess work. Stay on the fallacy diploma, this astronomy work is getting hard on you.

We checked them out and they backed up what I said.None of them described faith as evidence, a medium or a sense organ. It seems you wish to arbitrarily assign meanings to words. This is not good.

Are you really saying that wikitionary link did not have any definition from the Bible? Do i really need to post it here, or you can accept this dishonesty as wrong. i've described what faith is to you. They say experience is the best teacher. you say we have faith, i say yes. Now i tell you what faith is, you say no, my weblink knows best what faith is. Even your weblink put up the bible explanation/definition. Are you just out for the last word/say?

My goodness. This reasoning is atrocious. Are we discussing mathematics or speaking about punishment. I know they are both punishments but one is humane while the other isn't. Please learn to reason because you're leaning towards a fallacy of ambiguity while I've been quite clear with respect to what I meant.

Don't worry, not only your goodness, it'll soon be 'My God'. Don't you just love science? You've always tried to subject life, faith, miracles etc to science. Now i subjected you to science and it's atrocious. You'll soon speak chinese don't worry. So, i hope you now know that foolishness is not foolishness, and weakness is not weakness? Or we're back to maths?

Please look it up. It's been number one for many years. And the album is undisputed as number one. So popularity is not a major part of the Bible being divine? Then I stand corrected. Why don't you place the significant properties in the appropriate ranking with the most important feature first?

number one where and how? The Bible is universal and former, current and future number one. how many translations does this song/album have? Do you have this album, because i don't and i know of many who don't and have never even heard this album, not to mention know the name. You have a Bible, maybe even more than one. I'm not sure there're many who haven't seen a Bible in nigeria. I'm almost certain 90% nigerians have never seen a real mj album not to talk of this particular album you're on about. Jackson's dead and buried. the Word of God is alive forever more.

Simply google world's oldest books. I'll no longer be spoon feeding you unless it's absolutely necessary.

Oh so i can only find it on google. So much for divine comparisons.
i'll respond to other issues later please. Always remember, it's never too late for you to repent and give your life to Jesus Christ. i pray that His grace will be showered on you. Then you'd not need to ask so many questions, the Answer will be with you.
John 16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

@thehomer

Simply sitting around and forgiving someone who went out and murdered an entire family to steal their plasma tv is not justice. It is an abomination. If God could do this for this person, then why did he still go ahead and commit suicide?
Sorry but even Christians disagree on this so called standard. This is why we can find Christians who oppose slavery and Christians who are in support of a woman's right to have an abortion. This is an indication that God does not sit around and dictate standards.

It's becoming your hobby to try to twist my words. You won't gain much from a forum if all you've come to do is force preconceived notions on people who you seem to have classed together. While you're at getting your diploma in Fallacy study, don't forget to frequently 'check' yourself from falling into the same error. i don't know your issue with a plasma tv, i'm not in your mind, always remember that, neither are you in mine. Respond to what i've typed, not to what you think i typed or will type. i didn't mention any 'sitting around'. You need a change of perspective at the very least, to stand a stand at understanding scriptural issues. If, like you seem to be behaving, you're not interested in understanding but just out to display turgidity, you're on your own. God is not standing before a trial, you are. All humans are. He doesn't owe you nothing, and you can't hold Him, or punish Him on nothing. I said forgiving the repentant sinner which God does and is still doing. The perspective we are discussing is the kingdom of God, it's eternity, not 2years in jail, not even life imprisonment, it's eternal forever and ever damnation. Man possesses a never dying soul. 70/100 years on earth is a joke compared to eternity. the decisions we make now are what affect our eternity. If a man is infected with sin, he is infected. Whether it's small sin or big sin or very big sin, He's excluded from God's kingdom in eternity. It's like some of this metal detectors that won't allow you to pass. It doesn't exactly matter whether it's your house key, or a laptop, or your phone, or a pistol, or a nuclear bomb, you can't escape that alarm/denial of access-entry. If a man is repentant, it doesn't matter whether his sin is 'big' or 'small', he will be forgiven by God. Repentance is hinged on Christ's payment. Christ came to die for us. The one that's infected must die, Christ came to die that death for us. What is left of us as individuals is to accept His payment. that's what you here as been born again. One that is born once is born through Adam, he is in Adam, infected. One that is born again is in Christ, his judgement/punishment has been paid for. that's the forgiveness. you cannot fully understand this things except you have eternal life in you and you're growing in the 'knowledge of God'. i'm not seeing if you can see things in a different perspective, the real perspective btw.
i didn't say that christians agreed on God's standards or not, neither did i talk about  sitting around and dictating standards. i said God's standards guide us. He tells us this is righteous, this is unrighteous. Why? Like i said before, it's like we're looking to be employed in a company. We want Heaven, the kingdom of God. One man is bringing his ssce, the other his phD, one's bringing his birth certificate, the other his international passport. one all suited up, the other is in jeans, one in native. those are all our own thoughts as it were. But the company comes and says we need your say B.Sc 2years experience in X-field, apply only through Z-website etc. The company's statement has now become a guide for everyone. Some are still going to come unprepared or not meeting up, some will still send their cvs to nl job section instead of Z-website, but if you truly want to get the job, you'll follow what the company has stated. this is the kind of picture of God's word guiding us as humans, to live our lives the best way and most importantly get into the Kingdom of God.

It seems pretty obvious that healing amputees is too hard for him.

Doesn't to me.

Where did I ignore you? I simply pointed out what slavery is.

i didn't say you ignored me, can you at least try to follow discussions? i quoted definition of 'slavery' from microsoft encarta. There were about four definitions.  i was saying you ignored the other definitions but only chose the one that seems to suit your fantasies and notions. i was pointing out to you that slavery means many things and that you can't conclude that humanity as a whole abhors it. i showed you that some people even in our country are willing to be slaves(from the definitions), and that many masters/leaders would love to keep others in perpetual slavery. You did a similar thing with the 'faith' definition.

Wow. A failed attempt at obfuscation. Is this still a good reason for God to allow slavery? A good, just and moral God would not allow slavery. It's really that simple

You're not been pragmatic here. All humans are not equal and practically cannot be so. that's the kind of world we live in, not in your fantasied utopia. Some people would work for others, and many gladly would. It's not about the name you give it. It's the same general class of Master and slave, Teacher and student/disciple, Leader and follower, Employer and employee, Boss/Oga and worker. There are some people whose job titles might not sound so melodic, who might have many 'ogas' but whose life and situation is better than some ceoS. No be by Chief accountant abi King Director. Some houseboys are enjoying more than some children in some other house. It's not about the name as you tried to paint it 'agood God would not allow slavery'. Who made you a judge of good or morality by the way? I've shown you in the Bible, servants who even enjoyed more than i'm enjoying. Who would not want to be Joshua the servant of Moses? Or Elisha the servant of Elijah? Some very rich mogs today they say they are servants of God. They said they are servants, but this ones can buy a whole state and a lot of jets. So come off the name painting and face the facts of life. We're all created to prosper. We all have the potential, whether you start as servant or not. Elisha started as servant to Elisha, he received double of what Elijah had. gehazi was servant to Elisha, he became a leper. It's in you what you make of your life.

So according to you, a just God with the ability of performing acts of God like hail, gnats, meteorites etc decided to use a certain group of people, make them blood thirsty murderers and advice them to go on a genocide spree? Yet you turn around and claim that this God is good? Why did he not do this himself? What you're saying is that any act is justified if it is commanded by God. Would you kill three people if God commanded you to?

God can do as He pleases, you cannot, don't give yourself an headache about that. i told you to use the facts, not fight them.
Psalm 135:6  Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
God would not command me to kill three people. his words guide me and i live in the new covenant ratified by the blood of Christ. how do you always manage to forget that?

What do you mean by sin?

Sin is falling short of God's standard. i'll give you two illustrations. It's like if the pass mark in hundred marks is say 40. In this case, 39.999999999 is fail, 30 is fail, 5 is fail, zero is fail. Both the one that scored 35 and the one who refused to write anything except his named have failed and would repeat. It's like throwing darts at a mark where the 'bull's eye' is success. Every other circle is not success but failure. Even if you threw to the back of your head, you did not succeed just like the guy who almost succeeded in hitting the 'bull's eye'. i won't just say stealing is sin, or immorality is sin. Sin is any thing that falls short of God's glory, standard, requirement.

Well make up your mind on the God who ordered such mass murder. Or was it someone else who ordered the genocide? Remember you referred to it as judgement. Well if God had judged these three neigbours of yours and commanded you to kill them will you do it?

The God the Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. he cannot commit any crime so we can't accuse Him of crimes. We live in the new covenant/testament. Which is referred to as the period of grace, and we KNOW what God requires, so there's no need for guess works, hypotheses, ifs and 'would youS'

A week from today, we'll be celebrating Jesus Christ crucified, the good Friday. How true it is that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. What people were weeping for, saw as a great injustice, a day of sorrow, was turned by God to good. Bad Friday became good Friday. Suffering brought Forgiveness, and His disgrace brought Grace. It is good because He suffered for us. No man was qualified or able. Rev 5:4  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. But Jesus, the lamb of God, volunteered Himself. He gave Himself of His own volition, He could have declined to undertake such suffering in body, soul and spirit. When they came to take Him, they stumbled and fell. John 18:6  As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. . He could have escaped if He chose to, He could have disappeared, he could have rendered all the enemies blind, paralysed, even dead, He could have called 10,000 angels. But He died for us, for you and for me. He thought of us. the human race would have been forever hopeless, judgement/condemnation would have been yours. But He tool our place. He willingly offered His body to endure immeasurable trials and pains, never for a moment shrinking back until He knew that "all was now finished" (John 19.28). Only then did He dismiss his spirit.
Not His body only, His soul as well, suffered. The soul is the organ of self-consciousness. Before being crucified, Christ was administered wine mingled with myrrh as a sedative to alleviate pain, but He refused it as He was not willing to lose His consciousness. Human souls have fully enjoyed the pleasure of sins; accordingly in His soul Jesus would endure the pain of sins. He would rather drink the cup given Him by God than the cup which numbed consciousness.
How shameful is the punishment of the cross! It was used to execute runaway slaves. A slave had neither property nor rights. His body belonged to his master; he could therefore be punished with the most shameful cross. The Lord Jesus took the place of a slave and was crucified. Isaiah called Him "the servant"(Isaiah 53v11); Paul said He took the form of a slave (Philippians 2v7). Yes, as a slave He came to rescue us who are subject to the lifelong bondage of sin and Satan. We are slaves to passion, temper, habits and the world. We are sold to sin. Yet He died because of our slavery and bore our entire shame.

A week from today, we'll be celebrating Jesus Christ crucified, the good Friday. How true it is that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. What people were weeping for, saw as a great injustice, a day of sorrow, was turned by God to good. Bad Friday became good Friday. Suffering brought Forgiveness, and His disgrace brought Grace. It is good because He suffered for us. No man was qualified or able. Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. But Jesus, the lamb of God, volunteered Himself. He gave Himself of His own volition, He could have declined to undertake such suffering in body, soul and spirit. When they came to take Him, they stumbled and fell. John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. . He could have escaped if He chose to, He could have disappeared, he could have rendered all the enemies blind, paralysed, even dead, He could have called 10,000 angels. But He died for us, for you and for me. He thought of us. the human race would have been forever hopeless, judgement/condemnation would have been yours. But He tool our place. He willingly offered His body to endure immeasurable trials and pains, never for a moment shrinking back until He knew that "all was now finished" (John 19.28). Only then did He dismiss his spirit.
Not His body only, His soul as well, suffered. The soul is the organ of self-consciousness. Before being crucified, Christ was administered wine mingled with myrrh as a sedative to alleviate pain, but He refused it as He was not willing to lose His consciousness. Human souls have fully enjoyed the pleasure of sins; accordingly in His soul Jesus would endure the pain of sins. He would rather drink the cup given Him by God than the cup which numbed consciousness.
How shameful is the punishment of the cross! It was used to execute runaway slaves. A slave had neither property nor rights. His body belonged to his master; he could therefore be punished with the most shameful cross. The Lord Jesus took the place of a slave and was crucified. Isaiah called Him "the servant"(Isaiah 53v11); Paul said He took the form of a slave (Philippians 2v7). Yes, as a slave He came to rescue us who are subject to the lifelong bondage of sin and Satan. We are slaves to passion, temper, habits and the world. We are sold to sin. Yet He died because of our slavery and bore our entire shame.

REMARKs: This guy on scholarship is not showing any gratitude. He's unthankful and not ready to sit and learn, a mark/pointer that we're in the last days.

Hee haa
Little David killed Goliath, alleluia.

I'll post some few more verses that are clear enough for any reader of the english language to comprehend that No man will know when The rapture's to happen.
Mark 13v33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: FOR YE KNOW NOT when the time is.
Matthew 24v42 Watch therefore: for YE KNOW NOT what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 25v13 Watch therefore, for YE KNOW NEITHER THE DAY NOR THE HOUR wherein the Son of man cometh.
Luke 12v40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at AN HOUR WHEN YE THINK NOT.

The above is clear enough and unmistakable without need for special inferences and visions. This is a more sure Word.
I do not doubt Jesus is coming soon. I'm on the look out also, and praying even so come Lord Jesus, even tonight Lord come. Jesus may come this year, even this week, but that day that even thehomer and his cohorts are expecting?mba. The Scriptures cannot be broken friend.

Looking at 1Thessalonians 5, we'll see that it's not saying something different from what Jesus said. It's not news again to true believers that we are in the last days and Jesus is coming v.soon. True believers aren't in darkness to that. Unbelievers don't believe that. They're mocking and saying where's the promise of His coming, everything continues the same way. That's basically what the passage says from verse 1-7. We're to watch, because even though He's coming as a thief i.e suddenly, we want to be found ready. The world definitely will not be ready. That's why He says 'let us not sleep like others' i.e let's be on guard. Verse 2 so clear. You too should know perfectly well that the rapture will be sudden, not announced on the internet and radio. God's Word cannot pass away. How were the days of Noah, Jesus described it in a definite way, and you QUOTED IT! They were unprepared, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, too occupied. Jesus warned and warned and continued to warn His disciples not to miss His coming. Why?

@toluxa1
see, this issue's not hard. Like the atheists are counting down, the proposed day's near, we'll see. i stand on the Word knowing that the Scriptures cannot be broken. If you're really asking me if i sincerely believe the words of Jesus in mark 13v32, i'm surprised. But i'll answer nonetheless, i do believe. And the way you've been taught might not be the same way i was taught. Like i know that Jesus was in man's flesh when He said this. That is, He wasn't for instance, omnipresent like He normally was, nor was He glorified. Now, He's glorified, resurrected and exalted. He's gone to meet the Father. We can't rule out that He now knows. His tone after resurrection and in Revelation especially SUGGEST/INFERS that He now knows.
But definitely, we're still flesh. The apostles didn't know, none of them knew. We don't quote out of law and say the Lord will not do anything without His servants. Were the apostles not God's servants and prophets?

@sirjohn
I think NOW may be an 'appointed time'. I'm not saying that Jo's saying the truth or lying, but there supposed to be real reason for hunting him up and down. The OP's the one making all the noise about this 'miracle', not Jo. He's been following Jo on different threads publicizing these. So Jo gave him a number and a name for his troubles. Has he even bothered to 'flash' the number, no no interest. Arm-chair criticism's so easy. Let him carry out an investigation like you did, and then if Jo's found lying, fine, accuse him to his face. For what i think, the OP's only interested in creating trouble on Jo's facebook account, he's not going there to believe nada. Why not take the trouble, call and record conversations, arrange a meeting, ask for proofs, then conclude.
What i see here is conclude, criticise, ask for an internet link, condemn. Where's fair judgement, or fair judgement is only for 'true' christians?