₦airaland Forum

Mass was beautiful as usual. The homily (preaching) was about prayer. How to pray effectively. With special focus on the "Our Father" that Jesus taught us.

@Superior1 and all,

By the way, I hope you went to Church. I hope you are experiencing the joy of the resurrection this Sunday.

God bless you.

superior1: Typical Italo question evading tactics.


Make this simple and answer the question, if not Innocent 3, who invented real blood theory as a doctrine?
If you can't answer this, then we must agree you have very little knowledge of Catholism.

I have answered this question. If you do not see it, it is further proof that you are not reading and digesting my posts. You only intend to ask sarcastic and irrelevant questions.

I refuse to answer it again. If that means to you that I know very little or even nothing of Catholicism, fine.

I'm not in a contest to become the most knowledgeable Catholic...especially if you are the one judging the award.

superior1: Na, I am not judgemental on that. I just find the length of the articles you pasted funny.

Oh. Now it is the length. When I give you the link to read for yourself, you dislike it. Now I post it out for you here, you still dont like it. How can you be pleased?

I wanted you to see how the early church fathers through the early centuries believed in the real presence...long before Pope Innocent III was born. Since you asked if it was him who started it.

superior1: Away from that, that was the summary I made from the first article in your posting.

If that is not what you meant then say so, because I will want you to point out when the theory of real flesh and blood became catholic practice.

What part of my thread actually led you to thinking that I said we didnt take the Eucharist until Pope Innocent III? It was you who said it...then you accused me of saying it. What is wrong with you?

I want to be sure that you are actually reading my posts and not just waiting to ask sarcastic and ridiculous questions regardless of what I say.

So which part was so difficult that you ended up misconstruing it?

Quote the words!

superior1: @Italo, you got me cracking up with your copy and paste, but that is not the issue.

What gets me cracking up is this strange idea that it is wrong for only Catholics to copy from a source that has the same views as them. Tell me who doesnt do this. Everytime I asked you a question and you posted a Bible verse, what were you doing? "Copy and paste." And I never complain. Why are you so judgemental without adequately looking inwards?

superior1: You said they did not take eucharist until innocent 3 and innocent 3 didn't make this announcement until 1215. Does that mean from the Apostles to Boniface 3 until Innocent 3, the church has been living in error of this real body and blood doctrine for more than a millennium?

Before we move forward, kindly show me where I said the bold.

I dont think it only has to do with holiness but I think holiness has a lot to do with it.

WHY IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OPPOSED TO UNNATURAL BIRTH CONTROL?

The basic reason for the Church's opposition to any sort of sinful action
is that such actions are contrary to the nature God has given us. Jesus
said about marriage, "Let no one take apart what God has put together" (Mk
10:9). This can also be applied to the act of sexual intercourse which has
been called "the marriage act" for centuries of Christian history.

In the natural act of completed marital sexual intercourse, there is a
symbolic bodily unity of man and wife. However, in every form of unnatural
birth control, there is a positive effort to destroy the procreative
potential of an act that God has given us as a unique sign of married
love.

Looked at in another way, the sex act is meant by God to be a symbolic way
in which a couple are called to renew, at least implicitly, their marriage
covenant. In this bodily union, they are called to affirm anew their
original promises of married love, to take each other for better or for
worse, to be as one until death.

Unnatural birth control contradicts the symbolic renewal of the marriage
covenant. Instead, it says, "I take you for better but not for the
imagined worse of parenthood."

IS THERE A BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE CHURCH'S TEACHING AGAINST CONTRACEPTION?

Yes. The 38th chapter of Genesis tells the story of Judah, his sons, and
Tamar. One of the sons, Onan, practiced the sin of
contraception--withdrawal in this case--with Tamar, and the Bible tells us
that God slew him because he had done an abominable thing (Gen. 38:10).

It is recognized today that Judah, Onan, and another brother were all
guilty of violating an ancient Eastern brotherhood law called the law of
the Levirate. However, the punishment for violating that law was very mild
and is spelled out in Deuteronomy 25:5- 10. Judah himself admitted his
guilt (Gen. 38:26). It is therefore clear that the special punishment
meted out to Onan was not just for the violation of the Levirate but
rather for the way in which only he had sinned--his contraceptive behavior
of going through the motions of the covenantal act and then "spilling his
seed" (Gen. 38:9).

This interpretation is backed up by the only incident in the New Testament
where immediate death is the punishment for sin--the deaths of Ananias and
Saphira who went through the motions of a giving act but defrauded it of
its meaning (Acts 5:1-11).

www.ewtn.com/library/marriage/cclbc.txt

I love the book of Sirach. It's similar to Proverbs but I love it more.

plaetton: He he. If you want see bitterness, just go to church tomorrow and listen to the prayer-protests from gods children.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Very funny!

superior1: But It was Pope Innocent 3 that brought the real blood and flesh theory, wasn't he?

It was Jesus as I have shown above.

Also, see what the early church fathers say. They all lived centuries before Pope Innocent III was born.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

"He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus, Against Heresies.

"Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man's heart, to make his face to shine with oil, 'strengthen thou thine heart,' by partaking thereof as spiritual, and "make the face of thy soul to shine."" Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350).

"For as to what we say concerning the reality of Christ's nature within us, unless we have been taught by Him, our words are foolish and impious. For He says Himself, My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood abideth in Me, and I in him. As to the verity of the flesh and blood there is no room left for doubt. For now both from the declaration of the Lord Himself and our own faith, it is verily flesh and verily blood. And these when eaten and drunk, bring it to pass that both we are in Christ and Christ in us. Is not this true? Yet they who affirm that Christ Jesus is not truly God are welcome to find it false. He therefore Himself is in us through the flesh and we in Him, whilst together with Him our own selves are in God." Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 8:14 (inter A.D. 356-359).

"Let us then in everything believe God, and gainsay Him in nothing, though what is said seem to be contrary to our thoughts and senses, but let His word be of higher authority than both reasonings and sight. Thus let us do in the mysteries also, not looking at the things set before us, but keeping in mind His sayings. For His word cannot deceive, but our senses are easily beguiled. That hath never failed, but this in most things goeth wrong. Since then the word saith, 'This is my body,' let us both be persuaded and believe, and look at it with the eyes of the mind. For Christ hath given nothing sensible, but though in things sensible yet all to be perceived by the mind. So also in baptism, the gift is bestowed by a sensible thing, that is, by water; but that which is done is perceived by the mind, the birth, I mean, and the renewal. For if thou hadst been incorporeal, He would have delivered thee the incorporeal gifts bare; but because the soul hath been locked up in a body, He delivers thee the things that the mind perceives, in things sensible. How many now say, I would wish to see His form, the mark, His clothes, His shoes. Lo! Thou seest Him, Thou touchest Him, thou eatest Him. And thou indeed desirest to see His clothes, but He giveth Himself to thee not to see only, but also to touch and eat and receive within thee." John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, Homily 82 (A.D. 370).

"You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ...When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body." Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, PG 26, 1325 (ante A.D. 373).

“ Seeing, too, that all flesh is nourished by what is moist (for without this combination our earthly part would not continue to live), just as we support by food which is firm and solid the solid part of our body, in like manner we supplement the moist part from the kindred element; and this, when within us, by its faculty of being transmitted, is changed to blood, and especially if through the wine it receives the faculty of being transmuted into heat. Since, then, that God-containing flesh partook for its substance and support of this particular nourishment also, and since the God who was manifested infused Himself into perishable humanity for this purpose, viz. that by this communion with Deity mankind might at the same time be deified, for this end it is that, by dispensation of His grace, He disseminates Himself in every believer through that flesh, whose substance comes from bread and wine, blending Himself with the bodies of believers, to secure that, by this union with the immortal, man, too, may be a sharer in incorruption. He gives these gifts by virtue of the benediction through which He trans-elements the natural quality of these visible things to that immortal thing." Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, 37 (post A.D. 383).

"Perhaps you will say, 'I see something else, how is it that you assert that I receive the Body of Christ?' And this is the point which remains for us to prove. And what evidence shall we make use of? Let us prove that this is not what nature made, but what the blessing consecrated, and the power of blessing is greater than that of nature, because by blessing nature itself is changed...The Lord Jesus Himself proclaims: 'This is My Body.' Before the blessing of the heavenly words another nature is spoken of, after the consecration the Body is signified. He Himself speaks of His Blood. Before the consecration it has another name, after it is called Blood. And you say, Amen, that is, It is true. Let the heart within confess what the mouth utters, let the soul feel what the voice speaks." Ambrose, On the Mysteries, 9:50 (A.D. 390-391).
"'And was carried in His Own Hands: ‘how carried in His Own Hands'? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, 'This is My Body.'" Augustine, On the Psalms, 33:1,10 (A.D. 392-418).

"Dearly-beloved, utter this confession with all your heart and reject the wicked lies of heretics, that your fasting and almsgiving may not be polluted by any contagion with error: for then is our offering of the sacrifice clean and oar gifts of mercy holy, when those who perform them understand that which they do. For when the Lord says, "unless ye have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and drunk His blood, ye will not have life in you,' you ought so to be partakers at the Holy Table, as to have no doubt whatever concerning the reality of Christ's Body and Blood. For that is taken in the mouth which is believed in Faith, and it is vain for them to respond Amend who dispute that which is taken." Pope Leo the Great, Sermon, 91:3 (ante A.D. 461).

"The body which is born of the holy Virgin is in truth body united with divinity, not that the body which was received up into the heavens descends, but that the bread itself and the wine are changed into God's body and blood. But if you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it was through the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took on Himself flesh that subsisted in Him and was born of the holy Mother of God through the Spirit. And we know nothing further save that the Word of God is true and energizes and is omnipotent, but the manner of this cannot be searched out. But one can put it well thus, that just as in nature the bread by the eating and the wine and the water by the drinking are changed into the body and blood of the eater and drinker, and do not become a different body from the former one, so the bread of the table and the wine and water are supernaturally changed by the invocation and presence of the Holy Spirit into the body and blood of Christ, and are not two but one and the same.” John of Damascus, Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 4:13 (A.D. 743).

“Wherefore to those who partake worthily with faith, it is for the remission of sins and for life everlasting and for the safeguarding of soul and body; but to those who partake unworthily without faith, it is for chastisement and punishment, just as also the death of the Lord became to those who believe life and incorruption for the enjoyment of eternal blessedness, while to those who do not believe and to the murderers of the Lord it is for everlasting chastisement and punishment. The bread and the wine are not merely figures of the body and blood of Christ (God forbid!) but the deified body of the Lord itself: for the Lord has said, 'This is My body,' not, this is a figure of My body: and 'My blood,' not, a figure of My blood. And on a previous occasion He had said to the Jews, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. For My flesh is meat indeed and My blood is drink indeed. And again, He that eateth Me, shall live." John of Damascus, Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 4:13 (A.D. 743).

plaetton: Aa
And I guess the homo pedophile catholic priests seem to have missed that message, huh?
You church is being run by a home.sex.ual cabal that uses children for practice. Somehow along the line, they selectively forgot that good old sky daddy hates it so much.
Hhhhmmmm?

Dont vent your frustrations on me. I'm not the one who made your life bitter.

I am saying they appeared and talked with Jesus. Period.

Yes, Moses and Elijah and Abrahim and Jesus and Mary and Peter and James and St Francis and St Padre Pio and all the Holy men and women who have left this world are alive.

My God is a God of the living. What about yours?

honeric01: Learn to display Christ in you if you've him at all.

I quoted the lord's prayers to buttress my point.

Civility is missing from your own brand of christianity.

Tell us what you know about who can forgive or keep your insults to yourself.

Sorry.

I just have a hard time dealing with hypocrisy. Jesus had a hard time too...(Matt 23)

The point is made. You made an assertion. So I'm asking to test your claim.

My view on forgiveness:

In John 20:23, Jesus empowered HIS APOSTLES to forgive and retain sins. This was the institution of what we call The Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession). These apostles have handed down these priestly functions through apostolic succession from generation to generation to the present day priests.

Pastor Kun: Unfortunately the church founded bt christ was not into idol or Mary worship as is done in the RCC today. It's also a fallacy that the RCC is two thousand years old or was started by the apostles. The rcc as an institution did not metaphorse until the fourth century AD and by then it had been polluted with a lot of false doctrines such as trinity and the deification of Mary to appease the fantasies of pagan converts. It also remains a fact that there were at least six churches founded by the apostles that survive to this day namely Greek orthodox, syrian, Coptic, ethopian that pre dated the RCC so stop lying to give the impression that the RCC was the first established church. The luck that the RCc had was that it was able to ride on the back of the roman empire to spread across europe to become the dominant denomination today.

Tell us when all these Churches were founded with reliable source.

Then, we'll see which pre-dates which.

superior1: Actual as in real body and blood? Does it have tissues or muscles etc?

For that, you must ask Jesus. It was he who said "this is my body"..."this is my blood."

It was also he who said "my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."

And when God says something...IT IS!

honeric01: No i don't claim to know, i use 'i believe', don't put words in my mouth

So who typed the bold below which sure doesnt contain "I believe?"

honeric01: Oh, you mean moses and Elijah are living?

I can only speak of Elijah which never died but was taken up, as for Moses, i've got no clue why he showed up but he died at his time. I have no clue how God's going to judge those who died in the time of law, but biblically, those who died in the era of grace are asleep and to be awoken at the second coming. Not my word.

"for its appointed unto man to die once, after that judgement'.

BTW, none of these two were on earth during christ's ministry, and Jesus's physical apperance on earth was for a purpose, to give us direct access to God without the need for earthly\mortal mediator/s.

Jesus remains the only High priest to every true christian and no one else.


Only 2 people can forgive sins
1: God
2: The person you sinned against.

For the last time, refer to the lord's prayer.

I said it before and you didnt believe me.

A lunatic has surely hacked into your nairaland account.

honeric01: No i don't claim to know, i use 'i believe', don't put words in my mouth, now go ahead and answer my questions and lets see who's actually typing heresy.

Again, what questions?

superior1: Jesus in the blessed sacrament

Jesus' actual body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine.

Do you have any beneficial information for the OP?

Tutu, I think, is deliberately being vague.

For me, I am against homosexuality in all ramifications...

...but I am also against people taking laws into their hands and hurting them just because they are doing wrong.

God hates homosexuality but loves his children who happen go be homosexual.

Hate the sin but love the sinner...thats what The Church taught me.

What is what?

honeric01: All you've done with me is ask questions, go back to my posts, pick the questions, give answers, then i resume yours.

It is better and holier to ask questions than to speak heresies and blasphemies.

You are the one making allegations, thats why I'm asking you questions to validate your claims.

I have even hardly made any claims.

I ask because I want to know. You claim to know when you allege, so prove yourself.

Besides, you lie. I have not just asked but answered questions.

And you also have left some of my questions unanswered. Why the sudden decision to flee?

Oh! Wise decision. You've spoken more than enough heresies for a lifetime.

honeric01: A fault is a sin, some bible used 'fault' in place of sin.

Answer my questions.

Which question have I not answered?

*bearing in mind that you have not answered the question I asked before you asked yours. For the third time: *


Also, what if the sins are against God's command (in your opinion), like me cutting of your hand. Your retaining my sin would then prevent me from entering heaven, right?

I love this Pope.

If you want to see God face to face.

Go to the nearest Catholic Church and ask for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

[quote author=Dainty-tee]Na wa ooh. ''U dnt believe in Churches, u only believe in one Church''.
Interestn, so u mean God is not evident in other churches..only in d Catholic Church?.
Did God not use diff people 2 proclaim His word. I.e Moses,Paul,Ezekiel etc. Why should God only be in ur church....He is nt a One-way GOD

U indeed av a shallow way of thinking.
U beta beg God for 4giveness...cos u r bin SEELF-RIGHTEOUS. nd its a SIN.[/quote]I dont know how you people decide to make up your own statement and start arguing against it. You are the one who said God is only in the Catholic Church, not me.

God is indeed everywhere e.g schools, homes, barrack, fellowships etc. God is even with all people e.g Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists etc...but that does not make all these people and/or places the ONE Church that Jesus founded.

Sorry if it hurts you...but there is only one Church that was founded by Christ 2000 years ago.

Pastor Kun: The irony of this statement is that most catholic beliefs and practises are unbiblical false man made doctrines and you catholics know this.

What do you mean by "unbiblical?"

And which Catholic belief falls in that category?

.

honeric01: Sin is like a fault right?

A sin is not "like a fault." A sin is an offence against God.

honeric01: So look at it this way:
If a 'friend' needs money to smoke because he's broke and i'm against smoking, so i decides not to give him, he gets offended and keeps malice with me, what do you call that?

Anything but sin.

honeric01: Is it a fault against him or against God? Would this sin be counted as sinning against God or against just him?

It will be counted as no sin, whether against him or against God.

honeric01: Before i summarise my points for the last time, what do you understand by mathew, john and that of 1st peter? Talking about the verses regarding this topic.

I understand that they are in contradiction to your view.

Now can you please answer the question I asked you:

Also, what if the sins are against God's command (in your opinion), like me cutting of your hand. Your retaining my sin would then prevent me from entering heaven, right?

honeric01: So you're now telling Jesus what he should call what happened?

Let Mary and the Saints talk to Jesus. Whether in a vision or in flesh.

honeric01: You keep mixing things up, God's the only one who decides who'll make heaven.

As for retaining of sin, a sin retained by humans won't stop you from making heaven if the sin is not againt God's command.

Oh! There are even sins that are not against God's command? Wow! Tell me more about those sins.

Also, what if the sins are against God's command (in your opinion), like me cutting of your hand. Your retaining my sin would then prevent me from entering heaven, right?

honeric01: There are levels of sin you know?

What do you know about sin?

Are all sins equal before God?

No. But all sins are still sins against God and offend him. Obviously, you disagree with that.

*it is better for you to stop replying me and think this issue over, than for you to go on speaking heresies and lies on behalf of satan...out of pride*