₦airaland Forum

honeric01: LOL, don't people interact in a vision?

John in revelation is a tip..

Exactly my point.

Righteous men and women who are living or not living on earth can and do interact with Jesus.

It might be a vision for Peter, James and John, but it wasnt a vision for Jesus.

There you go flip-flopping again.

honeric01: Yes, if i refuse to forgive you, your sin's retained.

honeric01: Don't get it twisted, i'm talking about sin we commit against eachother, not forgiving me won't stop me from making heaven.

Are you then saying that someone whose sins are retained will go to heaven?

Before you answer hastily, pause and reflect on this verse.

Matt 18:18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

honeric01: You still can't fanthom what 'appeared' mean? It was a vision oga, they didn't walk up to him o. Pls go and read the full passage again.

So Jesus was not actually talking with them...he only had "a vision?"

Is this what St. Matthew wrote?

honeric01: Yes, if i refuse to forgive you, your sin's retained. That's why Jesus said if you've offended anyone, you must seek for his or her forgiveness before your offerings can be accepted by God.

He also said before your own sins can be forgiven, you must also forgive others who sinned against you.

This is amazing! Am I reading the bold right, or has some lunatic hacked into your nairaland account?

In order words, I can decide whether my offenders will go to heaven or hell, by choosing to forgive or retain their sin(s) against me?

honeric01: 'They appeared', what does that indicate?

It said "Moses and Elijah appeared."

That indicates that Moses and Elijah appeared.

Not their ghosts, as you are so desperate to force the verse to say.

@ Honeric,

Okay, so you are saying only God and the offended can forgive sins.

Let us look again at John 20:23. It says: "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

You are telling me that that passage is referring to people who are offended.

But does the offended have power to retains people's sins?

E.g If I steal your money, and ask you for forgiveness and you refuse, then nothing can save me according to your interpretation of John 20:23?

If I cut off your hand and you forgive me with or without my asking, I am cleared of that sin?

rezzy: yes, why wont i believe you? But the percentage is so low, exremely low.

You are just a prophet of doom. I have not even started telling you but you have already decided that they are few.

Well, let me leave you to your envy.

All Catholic priests are sinners.

Only you is without sin.

Happy?

honeric01: Oh, to you, they appeared to Jesus in flesh or what are you saying?

Matt 17:3: Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.


Why do you want to force it to say "Moses' and Elijah's ghosts?"

honeric01: No, i didn't shift the goal post, only answering your comments accordingly. Check my previous comments on this matter.

According to the Lord's prayers, we can forgive those who sin against us just as God does for us.

Refer to my first comment to get my drift.

Okay, let me do your wish and check previous posts.

honeric01: Only 2 people can forgive sins
1: God
2: The person you sinned against.

honeric01: Yes, what i quoted is in context of john 20, s but for the christians (true), if we're to forgive sins, its because we represent christ on earth, hence 1pet 2;9. Every true christian is christ on earth, so confessing to one another's a collective christian obligation and was not a specific duty of one person as the catholics practise.

Summary: God's the one who forgives finally, Jesus is our link to the forgiver and he's giving us the proxy to forgive others. So whicheverway you look @ it, it still means 'one to another' and not to a 'specified person'.

Mr Honeric, what do you actually believe?

That only God and the offended can forgive sins, or that every Christian can forgive sins, whether they are the offended or not?

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honeric01: Unbelivers see ghost of their dead unbeliver brethern, so?

Oh! So you are saying it wasnt Elijah and Moses Jesus was talking to, it was their ghosts? *just because you want to deny that they were either living or dead, which rubbishes your argument*

honeric01: Yes, what i quoted is in context of john 20, s but for the christians (true), if we're to forgive sins, its because we represent christ on earth, hence 1pet 2;9. Every true christian is christ on earth, so confessing to one another's a collective christian obligation and was not a specific duty of one person as the catholics practise.

Summary: God's the one who forgives finally, Jesus is our link to the forgiver and he's giving us the proxy to forgive others. So whicheverway you look @ it, it still means 'one to another' and not to a 'specified person'.

See how you are gradually shifting the goal post. First you said "only God and the offended can forgive sins." Now you are saying "every Christian can forgive sins."

Which one should we take?

Sort yourself out before you attack Catholic doctrine. You dont even know what you believe.

superior1: My final response to you on this issue

You can believe what you chose to believe but the truth of God can never be compromised. The Bible is the inspired word of God. The final and only authority on the doctrine of Christianity.

Yet you failed to prove it with the Bible.

honeric01: Oh, you mean moses and Elijah are living?

I can only speak of Elijah which never died but was taken up, as for Moses, i've got no clue why he showed up but he died at his time. I have no clue how God's going to judge those who died in the time of law, but biblically, those who died in the era of grace are asleep and to be awoken at the second coming. Not my word.

"for its appointed unto man to die once, after that judgement'.

BTW, none of these two were on earth during christ's ministry, and Jesus's physical apperance on earth was for a purpose, to give us direct access to God without the need for earthly\mortal mediator/s

If you are saying Elijah and Moses were dead at the transfiguration, it means dead men can talk to Jesus.

If you say they were living, it means righteous men who have left this earth are living...and can talk to Jesus.

Either way, you argument is screwed.

honeric01: Jesus remains the only High priest to every true christian and no one else.


Only 2 people can forgive sins
1: God
2: The person you sinned against.

For the last time, refer to the lord's prayer.

Let us assume that your years of Bible study have never included John 20:23: "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

superior1: You highlighted what suits you and made a joke of issue relating to your eternity. You are entitled to what you chose to believe and bound you. May God bring you to the knowledge of Him (amen)

Peace

Wrong! It suits all of us. It is God's word, not mine.

It is SCRIPTURE! And you are making light of it. You are the one making light of what concerns your eternity.

@Superior1,

Can we agree than you cannot show us where scripture says "anything not written is irrelevant?"

The only thing we can find is where scripture says both written and unwritten should be adhered to.

superior1: Un(not)scriptural is what is not(un)in the scripture. If e no b panadol, no b d same with panadol
Tradition not in the scripture is UNSCRIPTURAL

But tradition is in scripture.

2Thess 2:15:Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

You surely still have your sight, dont you?

And for the umpteenth time, even if tradition weren't in scripture, we Catholics are not bound by scripture alone so we dont have to prove anything by scripture ALONE.

Do you not see that statement or your memory loses it continually?

Even the Bible is a result of Church Tradition, not scripture...because nowhere does scripture instruct anybody to make a collection of books called Bible.

Show us where scripture says "anything not written is irrelevant!"

"Scripture alone" is UNscriptural!

plaetton: lol.

Italo lives in the spirit world.

Another one bites the dust!

Haba!

Shouldn't we seek psychiatric help for him?

I already have all the psychiatric help I need in the Holy Spirit.

drnoel: Don't worry urself, let them throw their insults. This is not the first time the church has been in the lime light and it won't be the last. As long as what they say doesn't shake ur faith. U see, they all want and admire the catholic church, this is just their weird way of saying it.

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honeric01: Those who died in christ are all asleep and presently not living, until the second coming, they're technically dead because sleep is a cousin to death.

Not my opinion, check the scriptures, not a hidden fact.

Once more, only the living can intercede for the living, Jesus is the only one capable of interceding for now because he represents the ONE AND ONLY HIGH PRIEST for the true believers.

So were Moses and Elijah living or dead...at the transfiguration?

superior1: Now you got me cracking my ribs.
Like I said, you are entitled to believe what you chose to believe.

Sacred scriptures and Sacred tradition
Have you a scriptural backing for this?

What I "chose to believe?" It is what you are making the whole of nairaland believe.

Now you seem to be saying "scripture alone isnt in the bible but 'scripture and tradition' isnt either." You have lost the plot, havent you? You are supposed to be proving "scripture alone" from "scripture alone!"

1. Syncan has shown you that scripture teaches "scripture and tradition."

2. Even if he didnt, we are not bound to prove anything through scripture alone, we are only bound to prove anything through scripture and tradition.

Dont lose your critical thinking skills just yet.

One who lives in the Spirit will know when it is satan speaking.

superior1: Lol, if I start asking you also for indulgence in the bible, you will claim I am not straight forward, no?

Scriptures are written, if it is not written it is not scripture. If is it is not scripture, it is not relevant as far as issue of scriptures is concerned.

I dont believe in "scripture alone", I believe in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

You preach scripture alone, so let us see you practise what you preach.

Show me where scripture says "anything not written is irrelevant."

You cannot. You will not admit that you cannot.

Poor you! Look how your "scripture alone" doctrine is being torn to shreds by none other than YOURSELF.

honeric01: Only the living can intercede, hence the emphasy on the ressurretion of Christ Jesus.

Amen! Now, two questions:

Whose opinion is this...God's opinion or yours?

Let us assume you are correct. Do you believe that anyone who lives and believes in Jesus will LIVE forever?

The voice of satan...just like in the garden of eden.

superior1: I didn't say disregard what he said to them by mouth. You are the one who is assuming what he said by the word of the mouth to this particular people is not documented in his letter to many other groups. If you accept the Holy Spirit inspired the SCRIPTURES (I don't think I need to define this word) and SCRIPTURES are in summary documented teachings that are written down, If it is not written, is it part of the SCRIPTURES?. The answer is quite simple, if it is not written, it is irrelevant and it is not part of the SCRIPTURES.

Show me where scripture says the bolded.

plaetton: It is true bros.
Its not about the religion itself, but about the type of people and why most easily get permanently hooked to it.
I notice a certain degree of femininity amongst religiously devout men.
Even for macho men, it serves as a backyard way to get in touch with their feminine side.

When you say "feminine," perhaps you mean "human."

There is nothing more masculine than a man who can conquer his own self/flesh/body.

One who cannot, I dont call "masculine" but "animalistic."

[quote author=RINE.]cos they are always waving and being tossed by the wind of temptation[/quote]You don get am finish.

superior1: Paul wrote several letters to different churches, the essentials of his teaching is captured in those letters. He didn't write everything to a single church. What we need to know is what is captured in the aggregate of his letters.

This is your opinion...it is not scriptural.

Scripture says 'hold fast to what is passed to you by word of mouth.'

You say 'disregard what is passed to you by word of mouth.'

Haba!

You are the one that preaches 'scripture alone'...

...yet you are the one disregarding scripture.

superior1: .

If you believe the scriptures are inspired by God, you must then believe what He inspired is the truth and what he wants revealed to us is what is written. Whatever is not in the scriptures is not of relevance or we may have to say God who inspired the writers made a mistake (I won't be a party to that)

Oh! So God inspired the whole of the Bible except 2Thess 2:15, abi?

"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

Okeyson4wisdom: so is holy mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and the alphadet amen now in the bible too. When did mary became an intersessor for sins. Catholics uve deviated from the faith and that candle that represents the churches in which rev 11 and 12 talKed about has been blown off from the catholics better follow jesus and stop religion.

Even YOU are an intercessor...

...talk less of the Mother of God.

Okeyson4wisdom: ure joking only Jesus can forgive sins because he was the one that died for our sins

Let us assume you have never come across John 20:23, 33.

I told you that guy will never give you a straightforward honest answer. Lol.

He will rather die.

superior1: You won't see the connection like you saw indulgence concept, you know why? You have decided on what to see and not to see, you have been fed the same stuff for God knows how many decades and like I said, those who wants to see, will see it. That concludes my discussion with you on that topic

You can be sure I will answer Kay, I just want to be sure he knows what he is asking about

Aha!

*Attack the person when you cant handle the argument*

Typical!

You position is just plainly not scriptural.