₦airaland Forum

immaculatesense:
Sir, I respect your view and I have the same view too. But let me help you to create a balance. Your view is correct but not complete. Let me answer or rephrase your thoughts one after another.
1. Is Jesus same as God? The answer is YES. But is Jesus same as the Father? The answer is NO. I will clarify this in my last paragraph.
2. Is Jesus equal to God? The answer is YES. But is Jesus equal to the Father? The answer is NO. He was only equal 'with' not 'to' the Father. I will also clarify this in my last paragraph.
3. Is the Trinity doctrine scriptural? The answer is YES. But has the Trinity doctrine been rightly taught the way the scriptures viewed it by most denomination? The answer is NO.

immaculatesense:
MY LAST PARAGRAPH
The word 'god'-'elohim' (note that there is not capital letters in Hebrew and Greek) is a plural word that is used for anyone divine or special. Angels were known as 'god' in the biblical period. Study the story of Jacob wrestling with god (angel) Genesis 32:30. Remember Manoah and his wife saw an angel and the said they saw 'god'- Judges 13:22. There are numerous examples of angels been regarded as God all across the scriptures but those two examples are clear enough for that.
Men were also called god. Remember that even the Father through his angel called Moses god (elohim) unto pharaoh and Aaron his prophet- Exodus 7:1. Abraham was called 'god' (elohim) by the Canaanites, even though some versions changed it to 'mighty' and some 'prince' but the original Hebrew word was 'elohim.'- Genesis 23:6. In Psalms the writer clearly stated that 'elohim sits on his throne in the heavenly court and judges among the elohim- Psalm 82:1.
Jesus is god (elohim-) because he is divine/deity but he is not the Father- the one and only god who alone is above all. Jesus is below him but superior to all other god.
In the true Bible teaching of the Trinity, just like the word Bible is not in the scriptures, the word Trinity is not in the scriptures but the Father who alone is supreme and above all sent his son Jesus on a salvation mission (John 3:16-18) and after fulfilling the mission the Father through Jesus sent the holy spirit to guide and lead men into all truth (John 16:13-15)..

immaculatesense:
These three, united in purpose but distinct in authority as the Father is above the son and the son is above the spirit play their roles in the salvation of mankind.

This is how the Trinity should be taught and not to make the three equal in authority as that is not true, but they are one and united in purpose.
.

immaculatesense:
Jesus is not equal to the Father. That should not even be a debate at all. Jesus himself declared severally that "My Father is greater than I am." And severally he always makes it known that he is subject to the Father's will and that the Father is his God- John 20:17. The son came from the Father but the Father came from no one. The son is god (deity/divine/worthy of worship) but the Father is God over all (deity/divine/worthy of worship).
Thanks you so much. I hope you will just include this in your view which is correct but not complete. Peace.

StillDtruth:
Even without going on further we can all see that Hebrews 1:4 Proves Jws are Lying and blaspheming when they say Jesus Christ, is an Angel.

So you see even in Paul's time devils were already trying to be little Jesus Christ.

johnw47:
ecc_7:6  For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool

lost fraud jw janosky

you forever the lying false accuser, of course,
taking after your father the devil:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. WHENEVER HE SPEAKS A LIE, THAT IS HIS NATURAL WAY OF SPEAKING, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rev_12:10  Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

false jw, u forever loving to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, calling Him a "ghost deity' which is a "ghost god":

Mat 12:31  Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 
Mat 12:32  Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

very confused lost phoney, quote where i spoke of; praying to the Holy Spirit:

1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

MaxInDHouse:
tctrils doesn't have any faith but when a believer proves to be steadfast in faith tctrils will die there asking stupid questions claiming he wants to know!

Tctrills knows that we know what he is very desperate to avoid.
He wants the holy scriptures to say what pleases him.

.

tctrills:
No, my own bible did not say Jesus is an angel in Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1-2
Just so we are sure let me copy and paste.

Psalms 103:20
Bless the Lord, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Psalm 110:1-2

110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

First passage
The writer is pronouncing blessings upon the Lord and his Angels.

Second passage
The Father tells the Son to sit at his right hand and promises to give him rulership over his enemies.

Nothing about Jesus Christ being an angel. I suspect you mistakenly sent the wrong verses .
If I missed out anything in my summary of the passages please let me know so I can learn.

Are you really sure you believe in your Bible?
Obstinate heart of Tctrills!



Oga,who is "the LORD" @ Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1?

Is the son doing the Lord's command @ Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1?

What did your own Bible calls those doing the Lord's command @ Psalms 103:20?
What did the Father calls those doing his command @Psalm103:20?

excanny:
Who then is the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament?

The Answer is in the screenshots provided by Trinitarians.
Dem no want to upload the screenshots.

Ken4Christ:
5[b]. Michael Does Not Have Authority Over Satan, But Jesus Does
Jude 9 – Michael the Archangel says to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you!"[/b]
This shows that Michael does not have the authority to rebuke Satan directly.
Matthew 4:10 – Jesus directly commands Satan, "Be gone, Satan!"
Luke 10:18 – Jesus says, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
Jesus has absolute authority over Satan, unlike Michael.
.

Ken4Christ:
6. Jesus is the King of Kings, But Michael is Just a Chief Prince
Revelation 19:16 – Jesus is called “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”
Daniel 10:13 – Michael is called one of the chief princes, meaning he is not unique in authority.
Jesus is the sovereign ruler, while Michael is just a leading angel..

Ken4Christ:
7. Jesus Sits at God’s Right Hand, But Angels Do Not
Hebrews 1:13 – “To which of the angels has He ever said, ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’?”
God never invited an angel to sit at His right hand, but Jesus sits there (Mark 16:19).
This proves Jesus is not an angel but the divine Son of God..

Pastor wey no know him Bible is displaying his ignorance.

Jesus Christ is an angel obeying Yahweh's voice and performing Yahweh's word. Psalms 103:30=John 14:24, Psalms 110:1-2.

Ken4Christ:
8. Jesus Has the Power to Forgive Sins, But Angels Do Not
Mark 2:5-7 – Jesus forgives sins, and the Pharisees say, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Colossians 3:13 – Jesus has the power to forgive sins, proving He is God, not an angel.
No angel, including Michael, has the authority to forgive sins.
.

Pastor wey no know him Bible.

Who gave Jesus Christ the command to forgive sins?

Psalms 103:20, Jesus Christ is obeying Yahweh's voice and performing Yahweh's word.
The disciples forgave sins, because Jesus taught them to perform Yahweh's word, Psalms 103:20 & John 7:16.

Ken4Christ:
4. Michael is an Angel, But Jesus is God
Hebrews 1:8 – "But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.’”
This shows that Jesus is God, not an angel.
.

[b] Hosea 12:3-4,an angel is called 'God' too.
That doesn't make him God Almighty.
Is Hebrew 1:8 copied from Psalms 45:6-7?
Yes.

What did Psalms 45:6-7 say in Hebrew language?
"Your throne is from God/God is your throne".

Pastor is using a false rendition of Hebrew 1:8 to deceive himself and gullible folks.
See the Catholic Church Bible and Hebrews language proof of Psalms 45:6-7.

Ken4Christ:
Titus 2:13 – "Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
John 20:28 – Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God."
Michael is always called an angel in Scripture, but Jesus is never called an angel. Instead, He is called God.

.

When skit makers shout 'oh my God!" in their online videos, are they refering to God Almighty?
No !

Your Bible rendition of John 20:28 ends with exclamation .
Exclamation a statement of evidence of surprise, or incredulity.
Thomas exclaimed because he doubted Christ resurrection.
Your Trinitarian devotees do NOT agree with your fictitious rendition of Titus 2:13.
Paul the apostle started his preaching with Acts 9:20.
Go and verify.
He didn't believe in your faulty rendition of Titus.

Ken4Christ:
The Jehovah Witness asserts that our Lord Jesus is the same person as Angel Michael. This is false. Below are reasons based on scriptures why Jesus cannot be the same person as angle Michael.

Ken4Christ:
3. Jesus is the Creator, but Angels Are Created
John 1:1-3 – Jesus is the Word, and “through Him, all things were made.”
Colossians 1:16-17 – “For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.”
Jesus created all things, including angels. Michael, as an angel, would have been created, meaning he cannot be Jesus.

Ken4Christ:
2. Jesus is the Son of God, Not an Angel
Hebrews 1:5 – “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’?”
This verse directly refutes the idea that Jesus is an angel. God never called any angel His begotten Son, but He called Jesus His Son.
John 3:16 – Jesus is called the only begotten Son of God, distinguishing Him from angels.

.

Very weak argument of Ken, built on quick sand.

The truth in your Bible is Hebrews 1:5 is a copy of Psalms 2:7 & 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
Did 2 Samuel 7:13-14 & Psalm 2:7 exclude Solomon and David from Israelites?
No .
Therefore ,because of Psalms 103:20& Psalms 110:1-2, Jesus Christ is an angel obeying Yahweh's voice and performing Yahweh's word, John 14:24=Psalms 103:20.
Hebrew 5:5 says Hebrew 1:5 meaning that Jesus inherited glory and honor just as King David and Solomon inherited glory above their fellow Israelites .(Hebrew 1:9, Psalms 45:7).

Ken4Christ:
The Jehovah Witness asserts that our Lord Jesus is the same person as Angel Michael. This is false. Below are reasons based on scriptures why Jesus cannot be the same person as angle Michael.

1. Jesus is Worshiped, but Angels (Including Michael) Are Not
Hebrews 1:6 – “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
The Bible commands all angels to worship Jesus, which includes Michael if he were an angel. However, only God deserves worship (Matthew 4:10).

Revelation 5:11-14 – Angels, living creatures, and elders worship Jesus, calling Him worthy to receive power and glory.
.

Oga, you contradicted yourself.

Your Trinitarian rendition of Hebrew 1:6 contradicts your quote of Matthew 4:10 ONLY God deserves worship ".
The God to worship ALONE @Matthew 4:10 is NOT Jesus Christ.
The basic meaning of Greek proskuneo is homage, kneeling or prostrate to greet a monarch, Kabiyesi or elderly person. (Screenshot evidence).
@ Hebrew 1:6 God is saying "let angels pay homage to Jesus.

Matthew 4:10.& Mark 12:29 Aramaic Bible.
"Then Yeshua said to him, “Depart Satan, for it is written: 'You shall worship THE LORD JEHOVAH your God and him alone shall you serve"

tctrills:
Sir which of these verses says Jesus Christ is Angel Michael.
Are you saying that anyone who obeys God and is Mighty in strength is Michael? Please make this make sense?
Which truth do you want me to store in my brain? Is it the truth that Jesus Christ obeyed his father or the Jesus Christ is Angel Michael one. Please point to the connection.
Could you do the house a favor. Please use these verses you have put together to show that Jesus Christ is Angel Michael. Thank you.

Before we proceed, do you agree with your own Bible. @ Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1-2 that Jesus is an angel obeying Yahweh's voice and performing Yahweh's word?


When you respond to the question,we can move forward to present the evidence in your Bible.

johnw47:
ecc_7:6  For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, So is the laughter of the fool


oh duh, most dum fraud jw janosky

mad max said he loves to torment,
2cor 12:7 says it's a messanger of satan who torments,
which means: = mad max and you false jw's all being of the same line of thought are satan's messangers

you r such a dum and confused false jw, aren't you:

1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

johnw47:
lost fraud jw janosky

u r always loving to mock and blaspheme the Christians Holy Spirit of the Bible
calling Him; a "ghost deity" which means a "ghost god"

true is; you will have your reward:

Rev_20:15  And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire



Mat 12:31  Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 
Mat 12:32  Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

John LYING MUMU WAILING miscreant, present the evidence where a believer in your own Bible prayed to your ghost deity?

tctrills:
Ok, you may be right but how is that an issue here? All I said was that I would not reveal whether I went to church or not. Why are we making that a topic or a big deal? I would never have asked if you did not tell me your church. I have never asked anyone about their religion in Nairaland.

tctrills:
Ok, you are say that because another organization also believes the same nonsense, we are not allowed to ask questions?
Anyway, you have a point in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses will everything be established. Even nonsense.
See your weak defence.
Mummy Chijoke join me and thief the meat so I am not a guilty. That's exactly the point you are making.

Oga,is Psalms 103:20 in your Bible?
Bless Yahweh, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!

Psalms 110:1,"Yahweh said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand"

Oga, did Jesus Christ obey Yahweh's voice and perform Yahweh's word? Jesus says John 14:24 = Psalms 103:20.
Is Jesus Christ "mighty in strength?"

Tc, your "nonsense" is from Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1-2.
Jesus is the angel of Yahweh his LORD.
Oga,Store this Bible truth permanently in your brain
Or
Delete Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1-2 from your Bible.
Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1-2 is "unbelievers weakness", they reject the Bible like Tctrills

tctrills:
No he did not. Is that the point you have been trying to make? Jesus Christ did not walk alone so what's your point?

tctrills:
Do are you prepared to return to the Angle Michael is Jesus Christ topic without us mentioning your church?

tctrills:
The Word of God will help everyone that accepts it and follows it to be at peace. All the problems we have in this world will end when everyone follows Christ.

The Christ you want to follow, did he work alone?

John 9:4 & Revelation 1:1 dey look you wotowoto.

johnw47:
lost false jw mad max

of course you forever fool yourself

according to you who loves to torment, you false jw's are satan's organised messangers:

2Co_12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!

John W said that Satan's organization exists.

Therefore, God's Organization exists under Jehovah's leadership and functional hierarchy highlighted in Revelation 1:1 & Hebrew 13:7,17.
Jehovah's witnesses is it !
.

MaxInDHouse:
You have nothing to prove!

I believe Jesus is God's son just as Bible teaches and i join a group of preachers and teachers doing what Jesus commanded so to convince me that i'm wrong you need to present a better performing group than the one i work with which you are working with not just arguing aimlessly claiming a global family of peace loving worshipers are all wrong simply because you feel so!

Hebrews 13:7,17, Revelation 1:1 and John 9:4 nah the Koko.

Hierarchy and leadership is functional in all Organization, including Jehovah's organization.

Pseudo christians don't know this.

tctrills:
You are right, I have nothing to prove. But then I don't need to present you a group, I need to present you with the Word of God. Jesus Christ told us to teach one another the Word of God. He did not teach us to go about doing a group competition. If you cant believe the word of God, na group you go believe?

delkuf:
I am checking any link from you. All I know is that the Lord Jesus Christ is not an angel..

delkuf:
jw are occultist

delkuf:
well so if those school of thought concluded that the Lord Jesus Christ is a angel, good for you. I don't go down that lane. So that settles it. Bye

Martin Luther and your Protestant reformers mentors learnt from your ghost deity that Jesus is archangel Michael, angel of the LORD Yahweh.

Oga, your ghost deity taught them the teaching you rejected.

achorladey:


I am talking about the one captured in that your NWT in the book of Exodus 3:14

At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”*+ And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’”


I don't have to tell you I believe in that God or not before you know the one I am talking about and that your NWT never in any instance said that God has an organization

Jehovah's organization or God's organization is a concocted concept made by man to pack lies and manipulations into your brains. I was there before you even if you spend your whole life in that your so CALLED BETHEL many of the pilgrimage site for Jehovah's witnesses

Message from Top to the lower strata
Revelation 1:1
Jehovah's Revelatory Message
given to Jesus;
Jesus delivered to angels;
Angels sent that Message to John &
finally sent Jehovah's message to
Servants in
The 7 Congregations in Asia Miinor.

But the MUMU will send official communication from him Oga at the Top to all their Units and Departments as instructed by him Boss at the Top.
But the MUMU is not in that organization at all.
Their Organization does not exist.

Ozuo pro max.

MaxInDHouse:
They beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. They no longer lift up sword against their neighbors, Nor learn war anymore! Isaiah 2:4

GothamCities:
It's not a matter of spoon-feeding. It's a matter of puncturing your lies or your deliberate lack of knowledge. The world Angel means messenger but it does not mean messenger/son. Angels are called sons of God.jesus is not just a Son of God but the only Begotten Son of God. Check your Bible. Not your fake JW Bible. Wherever Jesus is mentioned as Son of man or Son of God, it's always in capital S. Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God. Not just a son.

Now, tell us where Jesus ever called Himself an Angel or a messenger. .

GothamCities:
You don't get it. He is everything. He is God. He is also Jesus. He's also the Almighty. God is able to make Himself anything to fulfil whatever purpose He has ini mind. Only God can save man from his sins. No angel can do it. Hence, God had to do it by Himself.

Let me also ask you this:

Who is the Resurrection and the Life? The very source of Life and the giver thereof. An angel? No! That can only be God. But this is what Jesus claimed to be.

Who is the Bread of Life? An angel? No! God forbid! The Bread of Life can only be God.

GothamCities:
Who is the Creator? God of course. Both the Adamic creation and the New Creation were created by Him. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus. Bought by His precious blood. We are the generation of Christ. The spiritual gen is in our spiritual bodies. We do not have the gens of angels otherwise we cannot be the children of God.
.

GothamCities:
If you have problems with the Holy Ghost, do you have with the Holy Spirit too? Both terms are used interchangeably for the same Person. The word 'pneumatos' is translated Spirit and Ghost. See Mathew 1:18 in Greek attached below, where we were told that Mary was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

GothamCities:
So, according to you, God the Father is the One coming? He is the One coming with clouds? Is this the nonsense in your brain you're asking me to allow sink into mine? God the Father is the coming who is coming? Even when the book of Revelation ends with the words "...even so come, Lord Jesus."

So, God the Father was the One who WAS? Tell me exactly at what time God the Father ceased to exist for Him to have become the One who WAS. I pity your soul.

I pity you most because in spite of your nasty errors, you still have a very bad mouth. You obviously don't know God

GothamCities:
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John",

Can you see the fault in your analogy? God gave Jesus the Revelation, Jesus sent an angel to deliver it to John.

Take a closer look dear. Take away your JW biases and look at this scripture with pure eyes:
Here is the passage:

Revelation 1:7-8
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

Then, the One who is coming spoke:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

God the Father is. God the Father never was. It was Jesus who WAS when He died on Calvary. He even said "a little while you shall see me no more."

Jesus is the One coming with clouds. He was the One who ascended with the clouds and will return in like manner according to Acts 1.

If you put your brain to function, you would understand that Jesus spoke the message (revelation) that God his Father gave Jesus.

Jesus is a servant/angel delivering God's message (@Psalm103:20 & Revelation 1:1- to other servants.

Oga, open your eyes & see the hierarchy in Revelation 1:1-8 & Psalms 103:20.
God the Father OWNS the message, Jesus is his servant, working with other servants.
John 9:4 read it until you understand.

GothamCities:
Bring your dictionary that says Angel means messenger/son of God

If angels means messenger/son of God, does that mean God cannot have other messages or son apart from angels?.

GothamCities:
Jesus Christ declared Himself the One to come and the Almighty. Keep deluding yourself. He is the brightness of God's glory and the express image of this person. It seems there's a veil cast on your eyes. Only the Holy Ghost can remove it.

Oga,your Trinitarian mentors say Jesus is second of their triune deities & you moved him to Almighty.
Jesus told you Revelation chapter 1 was given to Jesus, yet you no believe your Bible..



Ghost nah demon. Ghost is NOT holy.

Ghost is not in any Greek manuscript.

GothamCities:
I pity you dear.

Jesus directly said that He is coming soon and that He's the Almighty. You ignore that?

And no, Jesus was the one who give John the messages of Revelation direction. He even appeared among burning candlesticks, and John described His appearance.

Revelation 1:1,
"The revelation of Jesus Christ which the God gave him..."
Jesus received the message from God his Father,then Jesus gave it to John.

Oga stop deceiving yourself, you have seen the screenshots evidence.

GothamCities:

I pity you o. God gave Himself to us but you're saying God gave us angels when the scriptures never said so. If Jesus was an angel, it will be very clear from scriptures. Jesus is the express image of the Father according to Hebrews 1:3. Go and think about that

So, an angel is your begging and the ending. And angel is the one who is, who was and who is to come, the Almighty?

Or you're saying God is the One who is, who was and who is to come? Tell us how this fits into the description of God

Oga,pity your delusion.

Angel meaning
"Messenger/son of God" in your Bible.

Is John 3:16 in your Bible?
Are you the express image of your Father?


Abeg you stop deceiving yourself.
You no know anything!

Gabrielshow24:
🤣🤣🤣🤣 indeed

Have a nice weekend.

Next time we have a discourse please do better than this🤧.

You were logically dishonest, incoherent and above all impervious to simple reasoning.

GothamCities:
So, according to you, God the Father is the One coming? He is the One coming with clouds? Is this the nonsense in your brain you're asking me to allow sink into mine? God the Father is the coming who is coming? Even when the book of Revelation ends with the words "...even so come, Lord Jesus."

So, God the Father was the One who WAS? Tell me exactly at what time God the Father ceased to exist for Him to have become the One who WAS. I pity your soul.

I pity you most because in spite of your nasty errors, you still have a very bad mouth. You obviously don't know God

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John",

Can you see the fault in your analogy? God gave Jesus the Revelation, Jesus sent an angel to deliver it to John.

Take a closer look dear. Take away your JW biases and look at this scripture with pure eyes:
Here is the passage:

Revelation 1:7-8
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

Then, the One who is coming spoke:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

God the Father is. God the Father never was. It was Jesus who WAS when He died on Calvary. He even said "a little while you shall see me no more."

Jesus is the One coming with clouds. He was the One who ascended with the clouds and will return in like manner according to Acts 1.