₦airaland Forum

Gabrielshow24:
If you had been paying attention from the beginning, the term "angel" is rather vague as it can fit both divine and mundane!

But simple biblical wisdom seem to suggest that there is a set of supernatural beings in heaven - the ones properly and universally termed angels. The bible even gave categories to them - your initial statement is just a fallacious conflation of the meaning of the word "angel".

And you and I both know what you plan to attain - by concluding that Jesus is Michael.

But you hide under the generic meaning of the word!

Like I said we all know he is a messenger.
I even pointed out, you and I are messengers.

Now my main question.

Is he only a messenger because he is sent of God or he is a messenger because he also belongs to a set of supernatural beings perhaps cherubims or seraphim or some even unknown-ims?

Gabrielshow24:
.
1), 2)
Where's Satan if I may ask?
Or before his fall where did he dwell?

Gabrielshow24:
Also you haven't answered my question 🤕.

This your diversion tactics won't help you🧐.

Gabrielshow24:
.
Lastly, God is not angel, although he sends his "WORD" .

Gabrielshow24:
.
Now the question on ground is,
Is God's word, although being sent of the Father, the same as the other beings present in Heaven?

Gabrielshow24:
This simple question is what you have failed to answer because of your preconceived narrative of equating Jesus to Michael 🙄.

I have not asked for generics but instead identity.

Now duly provide an answer and stop deceiving naive readers with your false equivocations that lead to fallacious conclusions!

Once again stop evading and avoiding the said question!

Oga, REMOVE Psalms 103:20 & Psalm 110:1-2 from your Bible so you can have peace to enjoy your delusion

Jesus is 2nd Lord @ Psalms 110:1-2 performing Yahweh's command.
Jesus is an angel @ Psalm 103:20 obeying Yahweh's voice.
Your Trinity worshipping devotees have written extensive commentaries on Joshua 5:13-14.
Oga,Stop deceiving yourself.

Gabrielshow24:
And you and I both know what you plan to attain - by concluding that Jesus is Michael.

Jesus the Word is the Commander of Yahweh's Army, (Joshua 5:13-14. Revelation 19:13-14 ), the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 Archangel Michael defeated the serpent Satan the devil, Revelation 12:7-9,1 John 3:8.
Biblical fact confirmed by your fellow Trinitarians.

E choke.

Gabrielshow24:
But you hide under the generic meaning of the word!

Like I said we all know he is a messenger.
I even pointed out, you and I are messengers.

Gabrielshow24:
Now my main question.

Is he only a messenger because he is sent of God or he is a messenger because he also belongs to a set of supernatural beings perhaps cherubims or seraphim or some even unknown-ims?

According to Psalms 103:20 & Psalms 110:1,Did Jesus belong to the set of supernatural beings performing Yahweh's word and obeying Yahweh's voice?
Oga, use your brain nau.

Gabrielshow24:
If you had been paying attention from the beginning, the term "angel" is rather vague as it can fit both divine and mundane!

But simple biblical wisdom seem to suggest that there is a set of supernatural beings in heaven - the ones properly and universally termed angels. The bible even gave categories to them - your initial statement is just a fallacious conflation of the meaning of the word "angel".

GothamCities:
Compare the passages above with these below where God Himself was speaking.

Isaiah 40:10
See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power, and he rules with a mighty arm. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

Jabisky, His recompense accompany Him as He comes with the clouds as the Son of man.

Isaiah 44:6
This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, [b]the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Compare the above to the Words of Jesus in the verses of Revelation I shared prior.

May your eyes be opened in Jesus name. Your deceivers shall be mightily judged and brought to justice.

Isaiah 41:4
Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? [b]I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He.

Just relax yourself, take a deep breath and read without bias and without loyalty to any organization. Read for truth and not for criticism. No one is fighting you. We're just enlightening one another in the scriptures. I'm not your enemy.

GothamCities:
Janosky, take a look at these direct words of Jesus. May God open your eyes!

Revelation 22:12-13

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. [b]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Revelation 1:7-8
“Look, He is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see Him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY .”

Can you see? Jesus calls Himself The Almighty. It will shock you on that day!

Gabrielshow24:
Like I said, what you have done is play on the interpretation/meaning of the word "angel".

thank God, you said Jesus is the word of God else it would have been far worse for you.

You haven't yet understood the conflation you are committing, let me make it clear to you.

Imagine replacing the term "angel" with "alien".

And I ask you, are you an Alien?

What exactly do you think I am asking you for?
Now once again, I ask of you, the verses you showed above what exactly were they conveying?

Is Jesus an angel because that's the literal 🤨 interpretation of messenger or part of a set of heavenly beings?

"Also just as other Angels are angels" is rather vague.

Because as far as semantics is concerned, the term "is rather vague"; it can be made to fit anything.

Biblical examples in revelation seem to call men angels as regards writing to the angels of the seven churches.

Also you and I are also messengers of God.
Except you define a boundary you can fit a square into a circle.

Think wisely and set your reply;
Remember we are using your standard!

TenQ:
I do not know what is difficult with this
1. Is Jehovah the God of the JWs?
2. Is Jehovah of the Jehovah's witnesses the creator of everything?
3. Is Jehovah of the Jehovah's witnesses self existing and everliving?

If the above is true according to the doctrine of the JW, what is wrong with my simple question

The question I asked is simply this:
Where Resides the "Jehovah" of the JW before he Created Anything?


Please let the JWs educate us!

TenQ:
My God is a SPIRIT, the Uncaused First-Cause, Creator and sustainer of Everything that Exists physical or spiritual. In Him the whole universe physical or spiritual resides. He is the LIFE. He is the LIGHT. He is LOVE. He is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient. His name is YHWH!

Introduce your own God to me and tell me his name?

Gabrielshow24:
You have still not answered my question.

Or maybe you lack comprehension?

Gabrielshow24:
Assess the logical implications of your statements before spewing them out.

You still prove the conflation I talked about.

Appealing to the different meanings of one word.

Gabrielshow24:
Maybe I should rephrase it for your sake.
Is Jesus a messenger, Angel, because he was sent of God; Although being the word of God or he is just a part of a set of beings?

Once again think wisely 🙃

GothamCities:
May God open your eyes. You ignore the Word to cling to doctrines of men. Congratulations to you.

MaxInDHouse:
According to the Bible God is not present everywhere!

God said to Abraham :

“The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy. I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” Genesis 18:20-21

How can God be everywhere yet He wants to go and verify the reports brought to Him?

GothamCities:
Irrelevant questions.

.

GothamCities:
Jesus said He came out from within (exelthron tou patros) the Father, and not from among the angels. Just prove that these Greek words don't mean what I said they mean. I have a lot for you, you can go through the thread or better still, engage me.

Gabrielshow24:
I didn't want to comment but your false equivocation is alarming.

You are conflating two things together, the literal definition, messenger, with another - a set of beings.

Simple reasoning is enough to show that everyone is a messenger of God, even the prophets of old all had one message or the other from God to deliver. Hence it doesn't diminish Jesus role of bringing a message from God.

But you using the first definition to allude that he is one of the set of beings is rather alarming.

You are using the fact that the word itself has multiple meanings and you are switching between them to make an egregious point.

Once again think wisely before you respond.

Oga, I challenge you to bring any chapter or verse evidence from your Bible where Jehovah God was sent to deliver message(s).
In the spiritual realm, the Supreme Being can not be sent to any errand or deliver message. Psalms 110:1 but Lord Jesus did so because Jesus is inferior to Jehovah God his Father.
Oga receive sense now & allow your brain to function.

Isaiah 6:8, Jehovah God said:
"Whom shall I send?"

Isaiah 6:8 & John 5:37, Jehovah God is not an angel.
Jesus Christ is an angel, John 7:16 is proof, John 14:24 is another proof, Jehovah our Father sent his messenger, Jesus Christ.

Oga, you are not wise.

johnw47:
really Jesus is the messenger of God, not a created angelic being
Jesus/the Word, created the angels and all that is created:


angel
aggelos
ang'-el-os
a messenger; a angel; a pastor

God is not a anelic being and so neither is His only begotten Son, He is God's messenger

johnw47:
like i have said many times, i don't have trinitarian mentors and godfathers

franchasofficia:
They should sing for free but they must pay tithe and offering?

Truthseeker10:
But you said when they saw Jesus, they saw the father son and holy spirit simultaneously. So why are you showing me scriptures where the holy spirit is being sent? Why the confusion?

GothamCities:
Jesus Clearly Declared His Origin - A Shocker For Muslims And Jehovah Witnesses

Jehovah Witnesses have always claimed that Jesus is Angel Michael while the Muslims claim that Jesus is just a mere messenger like any other. However, while studying the Scriptures of recent, I discovered that Jesus actually declared His origin. Therefore, all these arguments about who Jesus is are practically unnecessary.

In a previous thread, I have showed from Malachi 5:2 that Jesus is from Everlasting according to the scriptures. That is to say, He is from the eternal past. He has no beginning. You can take a look at the thread here: https://www.nairaland.com/8308122/ot-verse-strongly-proves-jesus.

In this new thread, we are going to further establish the Divinity of Jesus from His own Words taken from John 16:27-28. After making my deap research on the verses, I took my time with Chatgpt and Meta AI to further clarify my findings. Hence, I would just allow the two AIs to speak on this thread because I have seen that so many are very much averse to the truth. They reject he truth when it is shown to them even in plain sight. I hope these haters of truth would find solace in arguing with AIs this time around. The AIs broke down the verses and provided in-depth explanations of the Greek words used by Jesus in John 16:27-28:

First, let us take a look at ChatGPT.

My Query: Let's take a look at John 16:27-28. I want to see the full meaning and import of Jesus' statements in that verse about Him coming forth from the Father. Examine the Greek words used in the sentences of these verses to see whether Jesus said He came forth from the Father in terms of Heaven as a location where the Father dwells or in terms of essence and origination from within the Father Himself.

Response from ChatGPT

John 16:27-28 states:

- 27 "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.'
- 28 "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."

To fully grasp the meaning of Jesus' words, we need to examine the Greek text and analyze the key terms.

Greek Analysis of John 16:27-28

1. John 16:27 – "ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον"
- ἐκ (ek) – "out of," "from within," "proceeding from"
- τοῦ Θεοῦ (tou Theou) – "of God" or "from God"
- ἐξῆλθον (exēlthon) – "I came forth," "I went out"

2. John 16:28 – "ἐξῆλθον ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον"
- ἐξῆλθον (exēlthon) – "I came forth"
- ἐκ (ek) τοῦ Πατρός (tou Patros) – "out of the Father"
- καὶ ἐλήλυθα (kai elēlytha) – "and have come"
- εἰς τὸν κόσμον (eis ton kosmon) – "into the world"

3. John 16:28 (last part) – "πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα"**
- πάλιν (palin) – "again"
- ἀφίημι (aphiēmi) – "I leave"
- τὸν κόσμον (ton kosmon) – "the world"
- καὶ πορεύομαι (kai poreuomai) – "and I go"
- πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα (pros ton Patera) – "to the Father"

Interpretation of Jesus' Words

1. "I came forth from the Father" – A Statement of Divine Origin?
- The use of ἐκ τοῦ Πατρός (ek tou Patros, "out of the Father" in John 16:28 strongly implies that Jesus is speaking of something more than just a change in location.

- The preposition ἐκ (ek) typically denotes origin, source, or derivation from within something, rather than merely departure from a place.

- This suggests that Jesus is referring to an ontological or essential coming forth from the Father rather than merely stating that He came from a place called Heaven.

2. Comparison with John 8:42 – "I proceeded forth and came from God
- In John 8:42, Jesus says, ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον καὶ ἥκω", meaning "I came forth from God and have come."

- The verb ἐξῆλθον (exēlthon) is used again, as in John 16:27-28, reinforcing the idea of proceeding out of God's very being, not merely coming from a location.

3. Theological Implication – Eternal Generation of the Son
- The Greek phrase ἐκ τοῦ Πατρός aligns with the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son in classical Christian theology.

- This doctrine teaches that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, meaning He derives His divine essence from the Father but was never created.

- This aligns with John 1:1-2, where it is said that "the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and John 1:14, "the Word became flesh."

4. "I leave the world and go to the Father" – Speaking of His Ascension
- The second part of John 16:28, "I leave the world and go to the Father, refers to His physical return to the Father through His ascension after completing His work on earth.

- Here, "πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα" (pros ton Patera, "to the Father" suggests movement toward a person rather than emphasizing origin.

Conclusion: Location or Essence?
- The use of ἐκ (ek) in "ἐξῆλθον ἐκ τοῦ Πατρός" suggests that Jesus is emphasizing His eternal relationship to the Father rather than simply stating that He came from Heaven as a location.

- The language fits within the larger Johannine theme of Jesus being the eternal Son who is of the same essence as the Father (John 1:1, John 10:30).

- Therefore, Jesus' statement in John 16:28 is not just about geographical departure from Heaven but about His divine origin from the Father Himself.

Above are the words of ChatGPT quoted verbatim. AI is the go-to-tool for in-depth research and information gathering even in Academia nowadays. If you disparage the information provided by AI simply because it doesn't align with your doctrines, you're simply ignorant. Now, check the next post for responses on the same topic from Meta AI.

Confused Trinitarian, from whom did God the Father come out ?

Gotham, from whom did you come out?
Gotham from whom did Jesus come out?

Gotham came out from his parents.
Jesus came out from his Father.

God his Father has no origin.
Gotham, please allow your brain to function nau.
Trinity delusion hold you down real bad.

GothamCities:
I heard a Jehovah Witness (Janosky, I suppose) arguing that Jesus is an angel because Angels are messengers sent by God on errands. And since Jesus confessed that He was sent by God, then, He must be an angel. He inadvertently ignored the fact that God sends His Word. In Isaiah 55:11, God said 'My Word will not return until me void until it has accomplished what I sent it to do.' When Jesus accomplished the work God sent Him to do, He said on the cross "It is finished!" Psalm 107:20, God sends His Word and it heals them. Jesus, the Word of God went about healing all (Acts 10:38). John 1:1 says Jesus is the Word of God, not an angel. Revelation 19:12-13 says His name is "The Word of God", not angel Michael.

Dtruthspeaker:
You are speaking of yourself. People already declare you jws are mad and you are here to prove it.

Gabrielshow24:
Is that not what objective means? 👀

Or are you so dumb like your colleague?

Jesus Christ is archangel Michael, Commander of Jehovah's army.


Thanks for your time.

Gabrielshow24:
Does this in anyway discredit the objective nature of truth?
Your foolishness makes you buttress my point more and more.

Testing this statement of yours with a simple litmus test - the seemingly yet benign question of mine - fails miserably as you both wise men have indeed proved foolish.

Simple question you can't answer🤕
JWs are indeed wise.

Gabrielshow24:
You posited that how can someone be with you in the same house and not ...
.

Gabrielshow24:
Now a simple question yet you can provide an answer, but you are waiting for me to provide a description for "substance", something your initial premise didn't accommodate for.

It's just to show the world how shortsighted you and your colleague are.

I don't claim to know everything nah.

Oga, take the bold step to give clarity to your usage of the word 'substance' to reference God.

Numerous guests dey this public forum.

Steep:
Great God and saviour is Jesus.

Gabrielshow24:
You know sometimes when someone wants to show his smart but end up revealing he is foolish.

You are quick to use concord! To provide context and bring forth "divine" meanings but how come you can't use it now?

Professor Janosky
What's wrong with your source?
Or Dr. Who doesn't have a footnote for substance you can allude to?

Gabrielshow24:
You asked me a question?
I asked you a question "are angels the same substance as God?"

Since then you haven't provided a response. 🙃

You and your colleague; dribbling like Messi, going here and there, trying to derail the subject matter.

"Think before you type"

Gabrielshow24:
Two grown men, supposed intellectually sane can't answer a simple question.

They turned themselves to airbenders - evading and avoiding, the said question.

JW at its peak 🤔

"What do you understand as 'substance'?"

"What chapters, verses in your Bible used the Greek word for substance to reference God?"

Both questions are so simple that Our intellectual Professor Gs24 shepaly off him Mike.

Gabrielshow24:
Where do you infer all this from? 🤣
The whole of nairaland can allude you have a faulty reasoning.

If not I wonder how a sane person can infer off point🥲.

It's indeed mesmerizing to see the wisdom of JWs on display 🥲

Gabrielshow24:
You allude to seven day Adventist or reformers when it suits you but when their contradictions to your doctrines are made, you put them off🤕

Brazen idiots

Gabrielshow24:
That's conflation and false equivocations.

You are not a Bible student nah.


The serpent of Genesis 3:15 defeated by Jesus the archangel Michael commander spirit revealed is leading angels to battle and Victory over the serpent/ Satan @ 2 Thess 1 :7-8, 1st John 3:8 & Revelation 12:7-9.

Go and study all your fellow Trinitarians commentary on Joshua 5:13-14
Jesus Christ is archangel Michael.
Dem know the truth.
E choke !!!!

Gabrielshow24:
Truth is objective and Jesus was just stating it.
There's no harm done in stating the truth.

Or by stating the truth has it become subjective? 😂😂😂

Gabrielshow24:
It's like saying 5 and 6 are the same.
Give a logical person what I wrote up there, in fact give an ai overview. how did I imply Jesus' being wrong? In fact you buttress my point more. I allude to the absolutism of truth.

You really need to go back to school, maybe they will teach you comprehension and registers properly.

It's just pathetic!!!

Who is the seed of Genesis 3:15 that defeated the serpent?
The same apostle wrote to Reveal the knowledge of Revelation 12:7-9 & 1 John 3:8.


@ Daniel 10:13, Daniel 12:1,Matthew 25:31
, 2Thess1:7-8, Revelation 12:7-9 & 1 John 3:8 Who is leading angels to battle and Victory over the serpent/Satan in your Bible?

John 5:28 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16,whose voice resurrects the dead?

The Protestant reformers/Adventists saw this fact from the holy scriptures and opposed their fellow Trinitarians the Catholic Church.