₦airaland Forum

wordtalk:
Edited:

Have you been reading another book? Is it not the same Bible that I have been showing you what you read in my posts? You may not find the word "church" in the Old Testament - but in Acts 7:38, was Stephen not referring to the people of God in the OLD TESTAMENT when he spoke of Moses among them? Hear Stephen: "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness. . . ". The church in the wilderness was referring to people in the Old Testament.

Mr bible what sayest thou ? Or do we change your name to Mr paper?

wordtalk:
Oh Lord! Why do people have to get so rigid like this? It is like saying also that since the only passover in Israel were animals, is our Christian Passover supposed to be an animal as well?

Isreal gave first fruits as a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt . But Abel was the first Perron to offer first fruits but he didn't have any deliverance from Egypt. The reasons and structures were different. But the principles are the same. They gave first fruits to God.

I didn't read the opening post before, I only responded to the title . I just read the post now. It's a shame. Many Christians have not really understood what salvation in chrst really is. This kind of thing will continuously happen so long as Christianity is viewed as a religion. Just another religion. Christianity is man RECIEVING life from God through christ.
It is not a religion. It is life.

A new religion emerged in lagos some years ago. "CHRISLAM" it's a combination of the two faiths.

JeSoul:
Hmmm . . . okay oh. We're going to have to leave the cards on the table. I think there is a fundamental flaw in your definition of what it means to be 'born again'. The Spirit of Christ has been operating in the hearts of men 'since the foundations of the world' and transforming them - not just since the physical manifestation on Calvary.

What is the spirit of christ? no other person than the holygost. Or is there any other spirt?

Ephesians 4:4
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

God is not limited by our perception of time sir. To be born again is not a matter of reciting a confession - but rather one of the heart which God almighty recognizes and declares as 'righteous' - just as Romans 2 tells us.

I never said otherwise ma.

     

You had previously said "being born again is a spiritual rebirth, a change of nature from humanity to divinity, a recreation of the human spirit" . . . which I agreed with. If being born again is as you say, how is it that God's spirit was able to dwell with certain men in the OT without them being 'born again'?

God spirit didn't dwell in them in the sense of new testament in dwelling. The word "in" may be used in a generic way. But if you compare scriptures we will see the reality.

The spirit of man was dead in sin . And God couldn't occupy a dead sprit . The spirit of God only comes on them and leaves but did not dwell in them. Remember the disciples of christ healed people before Jesus went to the cross. It's based on the same principles . The holyghost was with them but was not in them.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Enigma:
Your own na to do fraud and deceive; when it come to intelligent discussion, na to pick race. No problem, long may you be the slave of your "spiritual vagabond" and "bastard" master.

What's intelligent to you? Your charge and bail style?

Why will a god fear a fly . You've answered for yourself

This is great! You didn't make reference to sons of belial today. . Maybe they've changed through thy rebuke

Is that a new version of CHRISLAM ?

nlMediator:
Correcto! The NT is founded on the OT. However, every christian realizes that the OT is a shadow of things to come and act accordingly. Take for example. The OT talks about honoring your parents, but people went about it in certain ways. In the NT, we follow the same principle of honoring our parents, but not with a literal application of the OT pattern. In every NT practice, that's what we do.

That's a good point.

It's only when it comes to tithes and tithing that people insist on following it the same OT way - same percentage, given to support your local church (not other churches or ministries) etc. Can somebody explain to me why tithing is so different? Why was it so difficult for Paul, writing to non-Jews, to ask them to give 10% instead of making a general reference to OT? Was he that general and unclear in other areas?

You should know that tithing didn't originate with the Jews. It's based on principles of faith . Just like offerings or prayers . Is offerings done away. Why 10% only God knows. Besides it's so minute when compared to other givings we do. Tithing seem to be the least of our givings.

BTW, I don't mind paying or giving tithes - like many I think 10% is too small. But I want to have a firm foundation for my beliefs. And if possible, I don't want to be under any kind of bondage, which makes it wrong for me to give 5% today and 40% tomorrow.

At least the ten . I do give above ten. Let God owe me. And I know many others who do the same. Some give 20 or 30 %

Is prayer compulsory or voluntary? Whatever the answer , same goes or tithing

. . . For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, (Ephesians 3:14-15).

Every Christian belongs in God’s family; and it’s a family of Champions, for we’re champions from Zion. The eleventh chapter of the book of Hebrews gives us an incisive chronicle of the acts of faith by some of the members of our family. These great men of old became champions in life, accomplished phenomenal victories by faith.

Their faith serves as an example for us today, and their deeds were written for our inspiration and edification; letting us know we can do the same. Let’s for instance consider the attitude of one of these great champions from our family – Caleb. He was so full of faith that at age eighty-five, when he ought to have retired from active service, he said to Joshua,

“Remember forty years ago, God made a promise through Moses to give me Hebron. Give me Hebron now and I will drive out the giants” (Joshua 14:10-12)

The fifteenth chapter of the book of Joshua tells us how he drove out the giants from Hebron without requesting help from the army of Israel. All Caleb needed was the assurance that God was with him. That’s the mentality we ought to have always, because we are born into this great family of faith-heroes.

The Bible admonishes us to be

“followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises” (Hebrews 6:12).

This refers to those who, through faith, faced and overcame circumstances. They transcended the world of their time and subdued it. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, the prophets of old, the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles – these are champions from our Kingdom; they’ve all set for us examples of faith to emulate.

Confession
I thank you Father for the great things you’ll accomplish through me today, because my faith is strong and unwavering. I have overcome the systems of this world; therefore I refuse to be bound by the limitations that exist in the world. My life is upward and forward because I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Glory to God!

Further Study
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

wordtalk:
I haven't shifted from or changed my views, and I'm sorry if my previous remark on Joagbaje's comments seemed unclear. Let me reiterate:

1. Tithing and any other type of giving (freewill, donations, alms, contributions, etc)  are not the basis of our salvation or justification in Christ. That is why I have said and maintain that tithing (or not-tithing) is not a salvation matter.

2. Relationships with God are founded on premises that He Himself has given at a particular time. The gifts, offerings and giving of tithes are simply the demonstration of those relationships - they are not the basis for establishing those relationships. To be clear: Abraham did not give tithes or any other offerings in order to have a relationship with God - he gave them because he was already called of God to have a relationship with Him. The same with Israel.

3. Nobody should be lured to give something (tithes, freewill, firstfruits, contributions, alms, donations, etc.) so that they can thereby have a relationship with God - Christians give what they give because they already have that relationship with Him by faith in His Son, jesus Christ.

4. Will a person lose their relationship with God because they do not give anything (whether tithes, freewill, firstfruits, contributions, alms, donations, etc.)? No, I do not find such a thing taught in the Bible.

These are the things I have tried to maintain - so if I remark on what others are saying, it does not thereby mean that I had abandoned or shifted from the position I hold.

I didn't say anything contrary either. You are too sound to be manipulated by their schemes. God bless.

The device used to watch Dstv free, avatar 2 is it illegal?

MrBible:
[size=13pt]17.Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

The Bible tells us that Abraham was very rich in cattle, silver and in gold, but apart from the tithe on the spoils of war he did not pay any other tithe. This is an indication that tithe before the law was not as it is practiced in churches today, if it was then the Bible would have told us that Abram paid tithes on his cattle, silver and gold before he went to war and returned with the booty of war he pay tithe on. Let no pastor deceive you that you are robbing God by not paying tithes of your income to them, these pastors are the ones robbing you. Be free in Christ, God loves a cheerful giver.[/size]

And how did you know Abraham did not ?

@ wordtalk

I really commend your strong stand on truth.

wordtalk:
Abraham gave tithes - Israel gave tithes. If that should bring issues about whether one should be called a "tither" and the other not a "tither", the important thing is that what they gave is TITHES.

That's just simple enough. We don't need to go into the nitty gritty of the circumstances by which they gave tithes. The bible didn't indicate the details . important thing is the fact that tithing is a spiritual deed in relationship with God.

This is another Jacob and papalolo case. Like the ogunpa of Ibadan

Seamate:
Who can we ask why?

Nobody needs to be asked. Several things could have been involved. From nuclear radiation to drug reaction.

@ wordtalk

wordtalk:
Also, I have said several times that tithing does not have anything to do with the salvation or justification of the believer. Here is an example (post #434) -

There are some questions you don't need to respond to because they will still keep coming even though you have given more than enough answers.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come (John 16:13).

In Matthew 15:19, Jesus said

“For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.”

This means man, on his own is capable of destroying himself. Therefore, it’ll be out of place to argue that “the voice of man is the voice of God,” or as some say, “Majority can’t be wrong.” Any thought, word theory, argument or direction that proceeds from the natural man shouldn’t be trusted since it’s not substantiated by the Word of God.

But how can I know and follow the right counsel, in a world where there’re so many voices?” you might ask. Firstly, the Word of God is the voice of God, and that’s your surest guide in life. Get acquainted with the Word, for that’s the way you get to know the counsel of the Spirit. Jesus said in John 10:27

,“ “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

In addition, prior to His ascension, Jesus made an emphatic statement about the ministry of the Holy Spirit – to lead and guide you in life:

“And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever” (John14:16 AMP)

The Holy Spirit lives in you, and He also goes with you. As you spend time in fellowship with Him and with the Word you’ll learn to discern His voice from that of men; you’ll always receive proper guidance.

No other personality in this life can lead you into success, victory and rest as the Holy Spirit would. You’ll take accurate decisions, go to the right places at the right time, and your life will be in sync with God’s perfect will when you yield to the Holy Spirit by following His Word. Remember,

“…as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Romans 8:14).

Prayer
Dear Father, I thank you forgiving me your precious Holy Spirit to be my guide, teacher, counselor and comforter. I yield my spirit to Him only, to be led, instructed and directed in all my dealings in life. As I do this, my entire life is transformed from glory to glory, in Jesus’ mighty Name. Amen

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

trekkie:
@joeagbaje
i like your analysis. look i will be the first to tell you to respect anointed leaders.

I'm gladto hear that. Because many people seem to be in the dark over such basic truth.

what i am saying is that the passage "touch not mine anointed" does not refer to specific prophets. that passage talks about anointed ones and prophets. you point out prophets but what about anointed ones.

I understand your position. You are talking from the context of the particular verse. I agree with you. But that didn't make them anointed or make them prophets. The statement was made on the ground of their lineage. Their fathers patriachs and prophets who's children they are.

Besides there are two major uses of the word "anointed". If david used it generally for the people ,it didnt take away thr fact that the word staands for a men in office even if the word was used generally by David. He himself indicated in the scriptures that the anointed stands for men in office. those who quote that scripture Quote It based on the principles it represent.

If you don't agree , I will like to ask you a question. On what account did David refuse to kill Saul.



Is it on the fact that Saul was a Jew and thereby was anointed or because of the office. Look these scriptures again.


1 Samuel 26:8-9
8 Then said Abishai to David, God hath delivered thine enemy into thine hand this day: now therefore let me smite him, I pray thee, with the spear even to the earth at once, and I will not smite him the second time. 9 And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not: for who can stretch forth his hand against the Lord'S anointed, and be guiltless?

2 Samuel 1:14-16
14 And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the Lord'S anointed? 15 And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died. 16 And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the Lord'S anointed.

now to the point i am really trying to make. , if i in love seek to restore a leader who has derailed from the teachings of christ the purpose is not to buck against God's institution, but to strenghten it. The bible says "rebuke not an elder harshly but entreat him as a father" we have permission to politely talk to our leaders about what we think may be wrong. we could be wrong and when we are shown the light, all we need to do is to say sorry i did not know. but to bring out "touch not mine anointed" each time we try to correct our pastors who may be erring that's why it SEEMS as if the church worships pastors rather than God. christ has come and made us brethren and if brethren are denied the opportunity to go direct to the pastor to speak, then they are left with no choice than to gossip about his wrong doings behind him, helping no one and such pastors are carefully pampered by their fellow ministers straight into hell.
i like referring to the bible as a living book . remember when peter was eating with the gentiles until the jews came and he then tried to distance himself as if he was not previously eating with the gentiles. why did paul not say "touch not mine anointed" and keep quiet. no peter was corrected and in open church! but because peter was humble, teachable like the christians of those days, the church remained intact. and please don't tell me that it was because it was apostle to apostle so they were on equal footing. other brethren were there.

I love what you said . I never said people should be quiet . There are biblical ways to handle issues in the kingdom. If you read my post well you will see that.

The reason paul could rebuke Peter was the fact that it was Pauls congregation , and he had right to protect his sheep. From pollution since the error was done openly, it had to be corrected openly . The second thing was the fact that Paul was an apostle . You will never find a recommendation in the word of God for men to rebuke their leader.

mazaje:
The guy(an Asian) was paid simple. . . .Nigerians and Americans always get paid to do things all time,no?. . .No president of any nation will ever try the crazy stunt on display. . . . .

Did Jesus pay people too?

John 7:12
12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

And how much will be paid to leaders of nations to lie that they recieve miracle .

What this and tell me if this innocent baby was paid too.
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nlMediator:
I like how you claim your position is based on the word but another person's is based on hypocrisy. And you expect me to adopt the same approach, otherwise I've joined a bandwagon you don't like?

I'm not against anybody judging my post by the word. I welcome it whole heartedly. But when christian posts enters mockery and some get insultive . It's no longer in the spirit of the bible.

but neither did he recommend tithing for the church. So, you're still in the same knot of stating a principle (what Jesus recommended or not) but selectively applying it.

Jesus  didn't need to teach tithing because it was never an issue for debate. It was on for thousands of years. Jesus endorsed tithing in matt. He also taught on rendering what is to God to God. So tithes and offerings were no issues.

Sure, everybody in your church is a minister but Paul was careful to recommend against multiple wives to office holders. Again, you start with a position you cannot sustain. When somebody says that every christian is a man of God, you quote Paul's words to Timothy that he was referring to office holders. At that point, you don't think that every member of your church is a minister and therefore a Man of God.

There different offices in Gods kindgdom. Some are called by God some are  appointed by men and others came in through a desire to serve. Timothy certainly didn't recieve a call like paul. Paul made a minister out of him. If polygamy will be a hindrance to the future ministry of a potential minister being a criterial for disqualification why should one adopt it.

You see, it's such inconsistencies that make it difficult for me to back you sometimes.

You don't need to back me. Stand for truth. but make sure it is truth. Besides if you had asked for clarification, what you term incosistent may not really be.

It'll be a waste of my mental abilities not to question such glaring contradictions.

I welcome contributive criticism. It is mockery ,abuses and unchristian attitude I condemn.

The Nigerian man ,pays nigerians, paid Americans , paid presidents, paid rulers of nations for tv show? What else can we expect from natural men like you guys. I can understand what Jesus went through.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It's a more convenient time for all rather than business hour .

It's a spiritual sacrifice . Self denial.

Jesus did it. Apart from 40 days and night in prayers. He had some personal all night prayers too.

Luke 6:12
12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

nlMediator:
Your response on anointing oil makes the point I was raising. If the validity of a practice is based on (1) thousands of years of practice AND (2) lack of condemnation in the Bible, then your church should be embracing the anointing oil.

anointing oil was never Recomended by Jesus for the church,  neither did he use it. So why should we embrace it. The oil used by Jews was medicinal. The spiritual anointing oil was for putting men into office .

And polygamy for members (not pastors and deacons).

every one of our members are potential ministers. So whats good for the bishop is good for them too.

So, when you select tithes among all the things that fit that criteria, it raises questions about your position. And if you think seeking answers to such inconsistency makes one a mocker, feel free to continue with the

I didn't select tithes . I'm taking a stand on the word. Tithing is an everlasting ordinance. Offering is everlasting ordinance . They go together . You can say you don't believe in tithing but you give God offering . It is hypocrisy because they are based on same spiritual principle.

Proverbs 13:16
16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.

If you don't understand my post , ask question. I never said christian should not help people. We do good to all men. But our primary call for such is the brethren. The others are extra.

Besides doing good to all men is based on individual action. Not a corporate law for church. I give to the poor , even Muslim beggars. But that is personal .

Scandal is propaganda . The proper question ought to have been. " why do Christians sin" labelling denominations is not the issue . People do fall into error either in evangelical church or orthodox.

I cor 16: is not about about tithing , it was about helps and support for sAints in Jerusalem. But I don't know if it's 10 percent they gave. Josephus will know better.

What indicates tithing in the epistles is in 1cor 9

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

wordtalk:
We cannot argue in a general way to say that 'There has never been any place in the bible where God gave contrary instruction against it'. Never? Any place? Not entirely true, if the 'it' you meant was concerning what people offered. Is that what you meant by "it"?

I was making reference to tithing. There is no place in the bible where God spoke against it or give contrary intruction. Jesus spoke against the observation of sababath and some other things which he fulfilled . That's my point.

nlMediator:
Are these the new criteria for determining acceptable christian doctrine and practice? If so, I'd like to see some messages here from your church on the use of anointing oil since it seems to satisfy the criteria. How about Yoga?

My church doesn't believe in the use of anointing oil. Only you understand what you're posting. You started well but I can see you've joined the bandwagon of mockers.

^^

yet the highlighted in your comment is certainly not true. There were a few other occasions where giving or offerings were sometimes less or more than 10% - both in the OT and NT. Let's avoid generalizing issues.

I don't get you pls explain

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