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Jesus answered the question in the scripture you quoted. Unbelief is the problem , that is why the message you hear is important. If you expose yourself to messages of faith, you will have your faith strengthened to do supernatural things. I have several personal testimonies of miracles and healing wrought through me and several other people too. As you feed on the word. But if you are hearing messages of umbelief , your faith won't work. Even if you want it to.

@ Enigma, Altheia,

Maybe I should just ask you this; At what point does a man get saved.

Enigma,
You're bringing another issue here , when you've not address issue on ground. A G.O may go to hell if he backslides and walks out of the grace of God. That is not anybodys business . It's between him and his God. If that happens , it doesn't mean the guy was never saved. He fell out maybe through etc. The fact that someone gets saved does not mean he will remain so. If he denies christ. He ceases to be a Christian. But that doesn't mean he was never saved. He lost his salvation

But we are dealing with the issue of a man being saved by works. This is false doctrine. A man is saved by faith and he begins to produce good works. An unsaved man could produce good works but it will not earn him salvation. There is nothing a natural man will offer God that will be accepted until he gives his heart to God first.

Altheia

aletheia:
^^^Sorry, but you cannot take one part of scripture and neglect the rest.
What do you make of these scriptures then?
Revelation 2:1-2, 5. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

When you read the letters from Jesus to the seven churches you will find that phrase repeated in all: I know thy works.

Again and again, it must be reiterated that true faith is proven by it's works.  That is the clear teaching of scripture.

Altheia, no one is against works. 

John 9:4
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

That one says the faith leads to works of righteousness is not the same as saying one is saved by self-righteous works. We are justified because God imputes to us the righteousness of Jesus; we are saved and cleansed by His Blood. And if truly we are saved then the evidence will be seen in our lives by our "Works." 

Oft times we quote Eph2:8,9 while overlooking verse 10 which follows:

KJV: Ephesians  2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
^God has ordained good works for those who believe to walk in. Simple. These good works are what points out to others that these are true Christians.

You are absolutely correct.

KJV: Phil 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

KJV: Titus 2:14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

KJV: Titus 3:5-8.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

A Christian is ordained to produce works . Which are fruits of righteousness.  But the issue is, he has to be a Christian first!. He has to be born again first! If not , his works of righteousness is vain. That is the problem is James writing . A man is saved when he confess the lordship of Jesus over his life by faith . Work or no work. After he has been saved, he begins to know the will of God and produce works in his service unto God. He is saved already before his works can be acceptable. But James says the work will save and justifies a man! That is wrong. Faith only saves and justifies. It is an instantaneous experience. It is not in heaven we will get saved. Look at the three thousands that got saved on Pentecost day. It was instant.

Acts 2:41
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added[ unto them] about three thousand souls.

The moment a man confesses Jesus as lord of his life, and invite him in. He is genuinely saved.

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Scriptures are clear on this . Look at verse 13.

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Some of you meant well, but if you don't understand the message of Paul , you will have the gospel messed up. Your theology will be upside down.

Understading The doctrine of salvation is the major problem here. I'm sure will shall have harmony on several issues if we fine-tune this soteriology issue.

Image123

Image123:
. But Joagbaje you so vain, even the Spirit of God through James says it ahead of me.

James 2:20  [color=#006600]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,[/color]

This malignment of yours is uncalled for. I believe in works of faith.I have quoted the scripture in other posts. But for salvation, it is by faith only. You have to be righteous to produce fruits of righteousness. You don't produce fruits of righteousness to attain righteousness. Justification, salvation is by faith only. You can't be justified by works, or saved by works. I'm not against James as a person. I'm not against his book. I acknowledge several times that James had great principles. Which I believe in. But justification and salvation? You should follow Paul.

Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us;

nuclearboy:
Oro naa dun, o fe ke!

This one takes himself so seriously, he really thinks I was serious. Anyway, humor remains a preserve of intellect.

You want to bind a child of God? And you would like to use God's Name to do it? You don miss road!
Bind ko, panel-beat ni

Who is ké- ing? . Who told you your òrò is dùn somebody , I baaaaaaiiiiinnnnnnd you by, !

nuclearboy:
NairaLand's BOY would like to be a moderator[b] JUST so I can ban Jo-man[/b]

I bind you in jeeesus name ! !

aletheia:
^I know where you are coming from with your post above.
BTW; the statement bolded in red above only highlights your confirmed ignorance of the Bible.

I'm not aware Satan was ever identified with horns in the bible. If you have any reference to that ,let me know. It's only the devil's incarnate Antichrist that has been identified with little horn. So pls enlighten my ignorance ma.

MyJoe:
The above is basically correct - the dignity of labour and self-reliance. But still there may be problems. Before it appears that the early church referred to in that citation from Acts was out to encourage laziness, we might ask:

How would you, Joagbaje, address a situation whereby a man does not work because:
(1) He can't find a job.
(2) He is incapable of working - think of the disabled, elderly widows, orphans, and the others that Dorcas used to look after.

A man that can't find a job should create one. There is no shame even if he has to push wheel barrow, sell okrika, pure water, newspaper, learn a trade or skill etc. But he can do better than that. His Pastor will be in the position to counsel him.

A man that is inapable doesn't exist, except if he is a vegetable in the hospital. Such should be helped of course.

A young widow should get a job, An elderly widow should be cared for by relatives but in the absence of that, the church will take care of them but they should be at least 60 years old and be submitted to a church serving God there.
Orphans are our responsibility. I have quite some that I sponsor with shelter and academics.

God is perfect, so questioning God is trying to put the blame on God for whatever. "GOD WHY ME" or "GOD WHY"
the issue is that God is not responsible for our lives , we are responsible. People try to blame God and question him so as to shift the responsibility of their misfortune on him.

^^^^^^^^^^
Altheia and chukwudi what do you think?

5solas:
@aletheia

The wonder of justification is that works do not come in. Whether we call them 'works of the law' or 'works of faith'. It doesn't matter where the 'works' are placed, before or after justification.

Good works are the natural response towards God of the justified/saved person.

Rom. 3:31:'' Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law''.

5solas, thank you for this great enlightenment. I think I know where the problem of these guys lie. They see salvation as a gradual process rather than an instantaneous experience. So they believe you get saved when you eventually get to heaven, so you work hard to earn it .

aletheia:
Joagbaje says:^One meaning of fleecing the flock is: To defraud of money or property; swindle

To fleece the flock is to shear wool from it's body, the sheep gets it's fulfilment ,because it's fulfilling it's purpose. and he gets replenished. When a Christian give to God, he is fulfilling his purpose, he gets replenished even more .

newmi:
I have taken time to gladly review almost all of the several posts on this thread and l have come to the inference and conclusion based on observation that there obviously a case of misunderstanding, perhaps because of the choice of word usage.

Far from it , I think pope chukwudi has taken the bait for them .I will start from there

MBA emeka and Fyne guy.
Great to hear again from you guys.

mba emeka:
''YOUR REVELATION, YOUR LIMITATION''

oh my oh my. If a question is asked aletheia, nuclearboy his esteemed apprentice answers. With all the good grammar you possess, your ability to communicate still lingers within the armbits of ''you are this, you are that''- all curses no explanations. Very discursive dont you think?

Very typical of our boy.

aletheia, please answer the question. what did James mean by faith only can not save him? i have been reading this thread as a ''neutral'' i really want to know what your opinion is/opinions are concerning the issue.

That's the one questiion they've been dodging. when altheia gets stuck they get the boy to do the dirty job. Da everywhere ru.

^^^^^
Sir John has become Babylon , mother of all religion! John pleeeease come back to light. These are men you should lead to christ but you're hardening their hearts the more. God will hold you for their blood o!

Kunleoshob, and The seed of ganja

KunleOshob:
@joagbaje
I don't know which twisted version of the bible you quoted luke 8:34 from, but I can assure you no decent version of the bible used the term "financial support" what the bible said is they "ministered to their needs" which is not necessarily financial.

The translation is GWT (God Word Translation). Jesus took money. Money is general medium of exchange. They may have given him other things too. But definitely they gave money and he collected. Don't try to over holylise Jesus.
Where did judas get money to steal?. 

That aside no were in my writings have I ever said it is wrong to support churches or pastors financially, what I have always complained about is the abuse of this priviledge by preachers and the greed motivating them to further twist scripture to fleece the flock.[ /quote]

It's good to fleece the flock, so that they can keep producing . Is the flock complaining? if you cut your hair won't it grow back? 

Some of these fraudulent teachings. Like the mordern day version of tithing has been institutionalized in the church by theses fraudulent characters and accepted by the ignorant mumu sheep as doctrine. I think you should go and read the whole of Matthew chapter 23 to know what Jesus and God think about religious leaders like you and fellow charlatans that parade themselves as men of god.

Tithing is A way of financial security for tithers. We don't lose by tithing.

The bible is filled with people lifting their voices.When you pray , you speak word.What scripture scripture says you can pray with your mouth closed?

Enigma,
Pau's personal decisions and choices are not rules. Why would you major on the minor. God commanded ministers to be supported, Paul personally choose to support himself in certain place because of the carnality of the people there, that doesn't make it a law for other ministers. If you study your bible well Paul recognise the fact that he was to be supported. But he just chose other wise.

He also chose not to be married, so does it make it wrong for other ministers to be married?


1 Corinthians 9:3-5
3 This is my[ real ground of] defense( my vindication of myself) to those who would put me on trial and cross- examine me. 4 Have we not the right to our food and drink[ at the expense of the churches]? 5 Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas( Peter)?

So why will you guys begin to judge other minister by a personal decision of just one person. A decision that is contrary to the general body of truth.

I have a case of a diabetic woman that got healed, I will post the details today.

Enigma

Enigma:
Contrast Joagbaje's post with the words of Jesus Himself!

Matthew 6:5-8 Quote
"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

"But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
"Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

It is not contrast at all. Jesus was dealing with motives of the pharisees who l[b]ove to be praised[/b] by men for their outward show. Jesus was not against open prayer. The Jews prayed publicly in worship places . I'm not aware they hire rooms for prayers in ther services. Jesus himself prayed openly.

1 Timothy 2:8
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Nuclearboy

Stop all these abuses that don't make sense. You don't achieve anything by it. If you really want to abuse me to your fill, open a thread, and empty your abuses there for me. But if you cone into a thread for intellectuals , use your intellect well. If you have nothing up there, read and go. You must not comment if you have no contribution.

@Kunleoshob

KunleOshob:
@joagbaje
Going by your above post, so why do most pastors today prefer not to work but live off the sweat of others by distorting scripture? Why can't they follow the example of Paul and the otherapostles in that passage and get a decent Job? Yet they want to eat the best food, wear the finest clothes, drive the flashiest cars and cruise around in private jets thru commercialization of the gospel Jesus clearly instructed must be preached free.

I don't know what forms your biases against men of God. The ministry is a sacred place. A fleshly man can not last or survive it. It is a call. You blaspheme against Gods spirit by the calumnious remarks against ministers od God. I know you feel youre doing God a service . What you're doing is a sin.

Paul was not a perfect man.Jesus took support, Paul also took support except in Corinth because of the attitude of people there. Paul descision was wrong, and paul's action and mistakes is not a standard for the church.

It is God thAt calls a man. Paul is not a standard for assessment of a minister. It not every pastor that is called into full time ministry. Many pastors work. Except the ones that God would not allow to work by the virtue of their responsibility in ministry. A minister ought to be supported . God has ordained it to be so. And any one that gives to a minister gets blessed for it. So at the end of the day, everybody wins. Those who gave didn't give at a loss.Will you call Jesus a thiief ?

I will like to know your comment on these scriptures?

Luke 8:3 ( GWT)
3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod's administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.


1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Galatians 6:6-7
6 Those who are taught the Word of God should help their teachers by paying them.
7 Don't be misled; remember that you can't ignore God and get away with it: a man will always reap just the kind of crop he sows!


Take note of the highlighted part. So Who loses?

KunleOshob:
@joagbaje
Honestly you should stop reading that filthy pamphelt called rapshody of errors, it could lead you to perdition.

Have you read one? What error did you find. Open a thread bring it up. Analyse them in the light of scriptures.

It must have been a relative's wedding. Jesus was only invited there.

John 2:2
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

There was a bridegroom. There , he wasn't Jesus,

John 2:9
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

In Israel, honeymoon is a full year, Jesus left the wedding with his mum , his brothers and disciple but no wife!

John 2:12
12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

JESUS NEVER MARRIED.

All these symbols don't have any effect, many make such gestures unconsciously, if satanist adopt any of the gestures that shouldn't make them his own. There is no cause for alarm. Satan does not have two horns!. He has never been identified with two horns in the bible. If he was identified with horn , it was only one horn. So, the sign of two horns has no spiritual connotation . It's only in the mind of people. Satan is a very handsome man!. Be free to express yourself any way you want. Why should i start studying occultic sign in preparation for a speech, so as to avoid certain gestures that may be satanic. What kind of bondage is that?.The earth is the lord.

Seven refers to completeness or fullness. Seven spirits refers to the fulness of the holyghost and his manifestations.There is only one holyghost but his fulness manifests severally.

1. Spirit of lordship
2. Spirit of Wisdom
3. Spirit of Understanding
4. Spirit of counsel
5. Spirit of might
6. Spirit of knowledge
7. Spirit of (reverence) fear of the lord

Isaiah 11:1-2
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Church is a place where you are fed with the word of God , and not food sharing . Ofcourse if a brother is destitute, he should be helped but not by spoon feeding him. He should work!. I will rather establish a man in a petty trade than handing down food . We may eat together in love feast. But not for certain individual living on hands down from others. Christ didn't die to make you live in poverty. A man should be encouraged to work.

2 Thessalonians 3:10-11
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all,

^^^^^
Tohuw va bohuw.