₦airaland Forum

Mark Miwerds: cows, sheep, chickens, goats, horses, camels.

I see you've corrected yourself. so will the horses ,camels,Dogs etc be brought to the temple. Before they are redeemed?

Mark Miwerds: Crops and livestock only. Animals could not be redeemed.

What's your definition of livestock

Mark Miwerds: tithes were of crops and livestock only. Snakes were not crops, nor livestock.

They were not titheable.

What of dogs ,horses and Carmel ? Do they bring them to the temple first and redeem them?

^^^


So do snake farmers bring the snakes to the house of God first and them redeem the serpent?

Tithes are given of all earning.

Mark Miwerds: And still you have not produced the Scripture that tells us we are required to tithe our money.

People gave money as tithes and offerings in the bible . By choice because money is a general medium of exchange it represents their labour. A farmer can give money in replacement of his animal It's called redemption either the animal is unclean like snakes , he gives money value of it and add 20%

christemmbassey: i had decided to only follow this thread for a while, but this ur post has forced me out. Joa it is very very sad that u should av such a mind. Imagine u advocating for trading on d word of God, so u mean, d power to heal etc was given by God, but inspiration to preach was bought therefor, should b sld for profit? It is a pitty dat uve been sold totally to worldliness and greed, i we'v bn vindicated for calling tithe collectors fraudsters. U asked for support b4 u write a book, when d writting is done, u asked 4 assistance to publish, after u've published, u asked for partnership to distribute and then sell at 10x d production cost. How much did u pay God n d holy phost? This is very unfortunate. U think God took u to CEC to complicate things? Pls brother, ask urself, why am i here? God bless.

You deserve no answer

2 Timothy 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Bidam: We should be careful about making gifts the yardstick for ministry,Thank God for gifts,but teaching the WORD is better.This is where Hagin outlasted the others.

I guess you misunderstood me. I wasn't recommending gift as yardstick . His father was a miracle worker . But I didn't really see him flow in such grace yet he had more people. It's a sign it's God working grace through him.

Bidam: How did he do the works? Jn.5:19, Jesus is saying that I reproduce what I see the father do. .

How does he see the father do this things , by dreams or vision?

nlMediator: No, you do not have perfect knowledge of CE. Otherwise, you'd not have written what you wrote about how the ROR is distributed. Simply put, it is also sold, which is contrary to your claim.

I tried to point same to him. ROR is sold . Partners only pay for the copies they want to distribute free. Which means the partners bought them to be given out. The free ones are stamped so there's no way someone will go back to sell the ones marked for free distribution . The guy was just trying to get at me for no reason.

nlMediator: Your post is full of rubbish. So, the materials should not be sold because we don't find that in Scripture? And let me tell you, Joel is a much better and productive christian than you. He has led multitudes to Christ, more than you can ever hope for. He probably has a deeper christian heritage than you, spanning decades of serving God with integrity by his parents and siblings. When the devil tried to attack me and make me uninterested in spiritual matters, it was Joel that God used to raise me up. You can continue with your trash and it won't change anything.

I may not be his fan but hs father joy osteen Made deep impression in my life. It's really a miracle how joel is able to put such great ministry together . I and several people had thought the ministry was over expecting members to go else where but rather . It became one of America biggest churches . He doesn't have any special gift like miracles ,healing and prophetic gift yet people kept thronging there.

.

ashieduplus: The funny thing is that i have learnt more scriptural truth from nairaland this year than from books I read for years... you all should even be asking what is being taught in these books and materials. So much heresy is being taught today. Indeed the Christian bookstore is one of the most dangerous places for a.Believer to visit.

The issue of heresy is a different ball game. Heresies has always been and will always be till Jesus comes. The issue is about christian materials being sold is it right or wrong. Doctrine apart.

There's no special gospel called PROSPERITY GOSPEL. there's only one gospel and prosperity is part of it. The gospel is a total package. Poverty is of the devil.

fr_evangel: .

The day you receive Christ and is born again, that is the day you were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Your pastor, Chris Oyakhilome preached this and he is correct.

Leave my church of this. And face the bible

So to say Appolos preached without the Holy Spirit is wrong.

I'm going to ask you a question . Read this scripture again.

Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Question: was apollos a christian at this time? Was he born again? Had he recieved the holy spirit to preach so mightily ?
Thanks

fr_evangel: The materials have been of immense blessing and I already knew to do what I'm saying here before I saw some of these ministries online who do it.

If you got blessed with printed materials of others why criticise it for others who look forward to such opportunity.

@Joagbaje
Members of the church, for example, CE where you worship pay the cost of publishing ROR through partnership or sponsorship, those paid for are then given to sinners and Christians alike.

Don't talk about what you may not have proper information . And don't make it personal with me or my church. Deal with the bible .

. If someone decides to request for a hard copy for a cost, if it has not already been paid for through partnership, he may bear the cost of producing that hard copy.

What's the difference . Payment to buy , and payment to request for. Payment is payment.

I know this sounds hard but it's because we have become used to what is done today.
I have a friend who has adopted this pattern.

It's your choice , Paul refuse to marry but PETER married will you condemn peter because he didn't follow Paul's sacrifice? It's your personal choice , and God bless you and your friend for it. But don't judge others . They have the Holy Spirit leafing them.

You can also decide to get people to pay for several copies and then send it out as an evangelistic tool for no charge.

Ministers do that even more. Everyone follow the leading of the holyghost .

Angels are not recording anything but there are three sides to wrong speaking .

1 . You will be held accountable for evil words

Matthew 12:36
And I tell you this, that you must give account on Judgment Day for every idle word you speak.

2. Your wrong words creates negative atmosphere around you. You will reap wrong destiny for wrong use of the tongue.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity:so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

3. ITS A SIN
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

fr_evangel: . . .Simon's case is totally different and I intend to start a thread on that soon. You'll be shocked how people practice today what Simon did and tag it "sowing into the anointing".

Well I'm not in the business of criticism of the body of christ in open forum. If you want to do it go ahead but be sure you're edifying the body. Don't criticise without information. You should first find out why people do what they do before judging thy brother .of course I agree someone may do godly thing with wrong motive.

fr_evangel: You are talking to an evangelist and you tell me you don't need the power of the Holy Spirit to preach? Are you serious?

Sorry evangelist [ with due respect]

I didn't say you don't need the power to preach. Acts 1:8 was clear . And I said the power is for the church.

We are talking about the disciples before crucifixion . They didn't have the Holy Spirit in them . Jesus only gave them delegated power to heal .and you should narrow the discussion to the period quoted . The power given to the disciples and the power given to the church is different . The message they preach and the message the church preached were different .

Have you ever read Acts 1:8? All the scriptures I quoted show you clearly why the Apostles needed the power of the Holy Spirit, for effectual witnessing.

That's the church era , it's different . Apollo preached powerfully without the holyghost , that's my point. The despises in the earthly ministry of Jesus didn't have power to get men born again. They had power to heal .

fr_evangel: @topic
I buy books and even sold for the same ministry as you.
I stopped buying for some time now. But still have access to large collection of messages from great number of pastors online.

Has any of the books in your collection been a blessing to you? Then it will be hypocritical if we condemn whst is of blessing to us by discouraging others from being blessed.

If only you know how the pursuit and worship of Mammon has weaken the effect of true evangelism and soul winning.

Get my point. When we go to sinners we preach freely to them even at a cost on our side. But that is different from edifying the body . There's a message for sinners and there is message for building believers . What we have in books and tapes is for believers .if a man has a message for the edification of the church in whatever format nothing is wrong to sell it to Christians . We should rather be greatful to have such materials . I just ordered the audio version of all Kenyon's teachings , which I play from my phone on the go.thats a rare privilege I rather give God thanks for such great ideas .if Kenyon were alive I will pay him double .

Those who labour in teaching ought to be remunerated according to scriptures whatever the format they use to edify the church.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 living bible
Pastors who do their work well should be paid well and should be highly appreciated, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scriptures say, "Never tie up the mouth of an ox when it is treading out the grain-- let him eat as he goes along!" And in another place, "Those who work deserve their pay!"

Some may not be pastors their callings is just to write and publish

Some have internet ministry. Whatever format we are blessed we should pay .

Galatians 6:6. Living bible
Those who are taught the Word of God should help their teachers by paying them.

The problem is that we love free things . If I get blessed by a man of God I give . If I get blessed by his book I give, the giving for the book is the purchase price.

For some materials , the price is even too cheap for their value. Imagine in 1991 I got healed of weekly malaria which had plagued me from child . I got healed reading EW KENYON small booklet "Jesus the healer" I followed the teaching in that book. I got healed till today despite mosquito bites .how much was that book ? Maybe 100 naira that time. How many drugs and injection and hospital bills I have paid and would have paid. Those who laboured in Gods word , should be appreciated .

fr_evangel: I don't know why you keep missing what Jesus sent the Apostles to do.
Let me help you this last time since it's not really the purpose of this thread: Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38; Acts 4:33; Mark 16:15-18;

The scriptures you're quoting is for the church. Deal with disciples before the cross. He gave them assignment to go an announce him. Then he gave them power to heal and to cast out devils. And he told them , this power you have recieved came to you freely use it freely. He wasn't talking about message . Because they didn't need power to preach message . Appolos didn't have the holyghost yet mightily in scriptures . Anyone can preach.

Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures,

The assignment is always the same, Go preach the gospel of Christ our saviour, heal the sick, and other signs and manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit follow you as you go.

Your pastor did not preach "the gospel of healing" in all his Total Experience, Higher Life Conference, CRC, Aba Miracle Crusade, Good Friday Miracle Night, Night of Bliss etc. He simply preached the gospel but there were healings and miracles, right?

Don't get personal with me let's deal with scriptures. It's the power and miracles that can be commercialized not salvation message.

Please read this scripture.

Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles 'hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Question : what was simon offering them money for? The eloquent speech or the power?

Pls correct your self in this error.

fr_evangel: @Joagbaje,

I went through some of your topics and noticed you have a lot of "cut and paste" from Pastor Chris Oyakhilome.
I can understand your zeal to defend this error now.

The grace of Our Lord Jesus be with you.

Don't get personal , just deal with facts from scriptures ,

fr_evangel: @Joagbaje,

Your desperation to support merchandising the brethren makes me wonder who you are. You sound desperate.

I'm not a publisher, but I buy many many many materials as every knowledgeable person should do.

You came into the thread with a ME vs THEM attitude.
If you notice, I mentioned some genuine ministers close to me who sell their materials. I have spoken to some and will do to others. I once sold materials too, though not my personal publications. But I can't any more, it's not of God.

Let me ask you a question ,Do you buy christian books?

1. Selling Bible is different from what we are talking about here. Bible is published by anyone, probably not even a believer.

So your point that christian can buy books from unbeliever but they shouldn't buy from ministries right. You don't have any problem with the buying so long as the church or ministry don't get a dime right?

[quote]2. Jesus did not specifically tell the Apostles not to sell miracles:

!


There's nothing to sell in the message . It's only an announcement .and even at that Jesus told them to recieve welfare , supports and clothes from the people, people pay them. Sowed seeds you may say.

Matthew 10:8-10
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves:for the workman is worthy of his meat.

So naturally they were to get money from people .

look at the phrase" Freely recieve " question , what did they recieve ? They recieved power to heal . Not an announcement . Every Jew was aware
Kingdom was coming . They only need to tell people the kingdom has come .But the power to heal and cast devils is what Jesus told them not to commercialize

Read it here;
Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

They didn't need power to preach . The power to preach came after Pentecost . Because they have yo speak to the spirit of men for regeneration.

3. Naaman became a "believer". Read through to verse 19.

That's his cup of tea. Anyone who witness supernatural ought to believe in a God that did what his God didn't do. The prophet didn't preach any gospel to him. You may quote the verse if he did. He acknowledged God but he didn't get converted to Judaism which was the gospel of that day.

It is also false to say Naaman was a proud man.

He was a proud man. You observe the prophet had to humble him. And he was even angry with the man of God. and went away angrily . He wanted to wash in swimming pool

2 Kings 5:11
But Naaman was angry and went away and said, Behold, I thought he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and heal the leper.

You are also wrong to say he gave gifts for the miracle, NO. He wanted to show appreciation, as is commonly done by rich people and many customs in those days and now. Like someone doing thanks giving for something done for him/her.

And what's the thing he did for him ? HEALING!

4. Lastly, I am here not to criticize

Why do we criticize the body of christ in view of sinners and expect them to give their hearts to christ.

sammyzacks: very interesting topic I must say. Recently I have been thinking about the issue of men of God extorting money
The gospel should be free.

There is difference between preaching the gospel to sinners and teaching saints. That's the mistake many of you are making. When it comes to the gospel. We sacrifice our money to take it to them ,sometimes ,give them food, free bibles ,free tapes etc. it's different from when a man pens down his revelations ,and experience in a material for preservation and future reference for those who care. It's their choice to pay to have it. After all ministers teach these things free on tv. But if you must have your own copy ,PAY!

Word of God in whatever format should be free.
Woe to anyone that sells the word in whatever format.

What of holy bible

sammyzacks: very interesting topic I must say. Recently I have been thinking about the issue of men of God extorting money
The gospel should be free.

There is difference between preaching the gospel to sinners and teaching saints. That's the mistake many of you are making. When it comes to the gospel. We sacrifice our money to take it to them ,sometimes ,give them food, free bibles ,free tapes etc. it's different from when a man pens down his revelations ,and experience in a material for preservation and future reference for those who care. It's their choice to pay to have it. After all ministers teach these things free on tv. But if you must have your own copy ,PAY!

Word of God in whatever format should be free.
Woe to anyone that sells the word in whatever format.

What of holy bible

Alfa Seltzer: Still answering the question nobody asked.

It answers everything if you know the bible. God didn't decide who goes to hell or heaven. He left man with choice. He gave man free will. Asking if he knows who goes to hell or heaven doesn't make sense, it breaks the law of free will. As though God predestination some to destruction. Such questions are unnecessary ,they are matter too high for us. If we must insist on an answer then the answer should be a no. Even if he has ability to know ,he won't know. Because it will break spiritual law. He ordained all to salvation .

Candour: . . .If Paul's epistles were sold, you can bet your house Paul wasn't taking any profit from it

Either he make gain or not That's not the point here. We were not there. The point is that a minister material can be purchased . Paul bought books . And men bought his materials .

If the books were circulated fee , who pays the printing bill .

. Scribes wrote books, copied books and sold but Paul a minister of the gospel of Jesus preached and wrote epistles which were delivered free of Charge to all the churches.

The scribes were the printing press of that day.if a ministry has printing press . It's like a business And they must collect their money.. Who pays the staff? And maintenance of the place. The money comes from sales . The bottom line is. It's not out of place to buy a material you need. If the material is sold at cost price or given free or sold a little above cost price . It's nobody business . If you can pay for compilation of bible then pay for any material you want . After all you're not forced . It's not everybody that bought parchment in bible days . It's those who have value for it.

fr_evangel: Truly, if the motive is not for profit, they may not need to sell publications that have already been paid for, or e-formats that cost next to nothing to make available on their websites.

I am blessed by your contribution. Thank you.

Right from bible days books were bring sold. Even scriptures. How do scribes get paid? Those who could afford it pay to have copies . Materials were circulated in their days. Paul's material circulated . He read the books of others and his books were copied and circulated . How did PETER get Paul's material .

What did he tell Timothy to study? What books and parchment was paul reading?

2 Timothy 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.


Materials were documented in bible days and those who could afford them paid got it. How did Ethiopian eunuch get the book of Isaiah . How did Daniel get the book of Jeremiah to study. Baruch was helping Jeremiah to spread his message . Either openly reading it or masking copies available.

fr_evangel: Firstly, Jesus was not talking about selling miracles.

Read your bible before criticizing .Jesus was talking about miracles . He gave them power to perform miracles . And he said they should not commercialize it because they got it free.

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:freely ye have received, freely give.

Why do we just criticise blindly for praise of men?

Mark 3:15
. . .And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

It's this power for miracles Jesus was talking about.

Does selling preaching make any sense ? It's the miracles Jesus was talking about (POWER)

Next, the prophe preached the "gospel" of that day to Naaman and Naaman became a convert/believer,

He didn't preach the gospel to namaan . He HEALED HIM! That's no preaching.
Let me tell you something, real preaching and soul winning existed in the Old Testament .converts were made and given the law of Moses. They were called proselytes.

Psalms 51:13
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways;
and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

The gifts of namaan was becsuse of the healing and nothing is wrong with that. The man was a proud man and the prophet had to humble him with " I DONT NEED YOUR MONEY' attitude . Nothing is wrong if he had collected it. Others did. Jesus did ,

. I wasn't manipulative.

You sure very are.

Paul took money from other churches quite correct and that's not what I'm talking about. Stop derailing the thread.

I'm on point dear.

The Apostles (Paul, Peter etc) took gifts and money too but it was for a purpose, TO HELP THE NEEDY AND WEAK among them.

That's not true . They took money for their use and welfare .and took pastor mrs on trip .

1 Corinthians 9:4-5
Don’t we have the right to eat and drink? Don’t we have the right to be accompanied by a Christian wife like the other apostles, the Lord’s brothers, and Cephas?

Please don't derail this thread with this. You can create another one for this topic.

I'm on point.

How about getting sponsors and then selling what has been paid for?

Did anyone do that ? And is there Any proof of that? Give us a link.

highyo: I know God will always stand by his words no matter. And he will judge every nature by his word

I do not want to be condem with just a little mistake. Please i need a true bornagain christain (not a benchwarmer o) true child of God that always live according to the bible not according to their pastor teaching. That will never twist the word of God no matter what, Infact I will even prefare deeper life member more to contribute

lev:19:19 do not wear a cloth made with different kind of materials

also lev19:27 do not trim the edge of your hair or your beard

Note
to avoid the anger of the lord, non beliver of Christ dont contribute

It's was for Jews while under the law. It symbolises "DONT MIX" it's an illustration of Isreal mixing with other nations. But it's abolished in christ .